The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
The issue is resolved, and the North American PC/Mac megaserver is now available. Thank you for your patience!
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
Furnishing Idea: Full Thick Sofas, An Analysis, and Why We Should Have Them
TeruKisuke
✭✭✭✭
It took me a while to make this post because for a moment, I hesitated, thinking "would full big couches even be lore-friendly? Is there some lore reason why all the couches we have are small and dainty?" I didn't know the history of modern couches, so I decided to educate myself, and the answer is that couches are lore friendly, and I will explain why.
Analysis:
Yet again recently I had to cobble my own couches to be full, with a back, and, most importantly, fill up space in a room, something I think helps fill space and mitigate the outcry of "more slots!"
As far as cultures who have yet to have "updated furnishings," we have Bretons and Wood Elves, although arguably Redguards and Orcs were not given much more furnishings in their respective themed DLCs either. I think the greatest potential candidate for a "big" cushioned couch would be the Bretons and would match with the style of their furniture. Or an updated Redguard cushioned couch, or even an Orcish leather couch.
TLDR: Plz add bigger "full" couches, such as a Breton Couch. They'd save slots, be lore friendly, and even make sense!
Edited by TeruKisuke on November 10, 2021 10:13PM Analysis:
When we think of medieval times, we don't immediately think of full sofas. We think of wooden benches and chairs clustered around a fire or hearth. Which, at first glance, would seem like the type of aesthetic ESO has gone for. For a long time in European countries, culture was dictated by religion, where the thought of worldly comforts were frowned upon because it would make you stray from values. This would make sense; the cultures of different Elder Scrolls races seem to worship the Divines and have very Christian chapels. This is a world based on Western medieval fantasy, after all.
Until you notice that, actually, we *do* have sofas and upholstered seating, even in the base game. Furnishings like the Breton throne, Breton armchair, Dark Elf Sofas, Redguard couches, and the Elsweyr Chaise Lounge.
The first "modern sofa," called the "Canapé," was conceptualized in the 17th century deep in the Renaissance, where thinking was more forward and comfort was more valued. They tended to not have a back, but they were at least *comfortable.* Although, we see the Redguards had already upgraded to having couch backing. Deep-buttoned couches, the first of the late 1700s, were called Chesterfields, which at least had a low back to them.
Canapé:
Chesterfield:
So, let's look at Elder Scrolls cultures again. What would be "comfortable" for them? I had to ask myself this as I once again struggled to conceptualize my player home. These delicate seatings would be fine for my smaller-of-stature Breton woman. But they would not be fine, however, for her burly Orc husband, who would at best not be comfortable sitting on these arguably tiny couches, and would at worst probably break them. ESO is no stranger to interspecies marriages, of course; one comes to mind two quest NPCs in Bangkorai, a Redguard man and an Orc woman who by the end wished to court him.
This is probably the reason why, in much of orc furniture, we see some thrones made out of stone (though this makes me shiver for their poor cold Orc bums). In this sense it is similar to the Greek and Roman benches that were also of stone. (This also makes sense with the Dwemer, who seemed to have little care for worldly comforts, but were also philosophers and in general deep-thinkers, but would have little care for religion. They did not believe in the Divines, or even the Daedric Princes, for that matter. Even when one appeared in front of them!) Although, we see that at least some Orcs have forward thinking with their cushioned benches and armchairs. Albeit, they seem a bit small for people of their size, although many base-game furnishings are plagued by this odd size discrepancy (an issue that still seems to plague newer DLC seating, and desks in the case of height).
The need for comfort becomes especially head-scratching with the High Elves. They are a tall people, much like the Orcs, but they have similar Renaissance-esque luxury tastes to the Bretons, and only have small cushioned benches. The High Elf base game furniture is especially contradictory; my tall Elven male character towers over much the furniture. Alinor furniture for the most part made the sizes more reasonable, but still most seating is small.
It was also particularly confusing with the Northern Elsweyr Khajiit furniture, whose desires for palaces, pillows and comforts left us with wooden benches, and only one very small—and very delicate-looking—cushioned lounge seat, which does not have much presence to it in a room despite its gold quality.
In Housing, I believe what we lack is *presence.* Furniture is often small. "Grand" tables seat at most four, regular tables seat at most two, benches are typically thin. Culturally, with the addition of sofas, it became the centerpiece of homes to bring families together around the hearth, and later around televisions, to the point that couches became the symbol of a home, to the point where, if the citizens of Tamriel have access to this convenient invention, why do we not see more of it, and of bigger size to match its people? We would ideally have couches that we could place in front of a hearth. A gathering place for families or guests in a welcoming fashion. And I think small details like this are what makes some of Housing alien to us, because things like this sense of unity are missing.
Until you notice that, actually, we *do* have sofas and upholstered seating, even in the base game. Furnishings like the Breton throne, Breton armchair, Dark Elf Sofas, Redguard couches, and the Elsweyr Chaise Lounge.
The first "modern sofa," called the "Canapé," was conceptualized in the 17th century deep in the Renaissance, where thinking was more forward and comfort was more valued. They tended to not have a back, but they were at least *comfortable.* Although, we see the Redguards had already upgraded to having couch backing. Deep-buttoned couches, the first of the late 1700s, were called Chesterfields, which at least had a low back to them.
Canapé:
Chesterfield:
So, let's look at Elder Scrolls cultures again. What would be "comfortable" for them? I had to ask myself this as I once again struggled to conceptualize my player home. These delicate seatings would be fine for my smaller-of-stature Breton woman. But they would not be fine, however, for her burly Orc husband, who would at best not be comfortable sitting on these arguably tiny couches, and would at worst probably break them. ESO is no stranger to interspecies marriages, of course; one comes to mind two quest NPCs in Bangkorai, a Redguard man and an Orc woman who by the end wished to court him.
This is probably the reason why, in much of orc furniture, we see some thrones made out of stone (though this makes me shiver for their poor cold Orc bums). In this sense it is similar to the Greek and Roman benches that were also of stone. (This also makes sense with the Dwemer, who seemed to have little care for worldly comforts, but were also philosophers and in general deep-thinkers, but would have little care for religion. They did not believe in the Divines, or even the Daedric Princes, for that matter. Even when one appeared in front of them!) Although, we see that at least some Orcs have forward thinking with their cushioned benches and armchairs. Albeit, they seem a bit small for people of their size, although many base-game furnishings are plagued by this odd size discrepancy (an issue that still seems to plague newer DLC seating, and desks in the case of height).
The need for comfort becomes especially head-scratching with the High Elves. They are a tall people, much like the Orcs, but they have similar Renaissance-esque luxury tastes to the Bretons, and only have small cushioned benches. The High Elf base game furniture is especially contradictory; my tall Elven male character towers over much the furniture. Alinor furniture for the most part made the sizes more reasonable, but still most seating is small.
It was also particularly confusing with the Northern Elsweyr Khajiit furniture, whose desires for palaces, pillows and comforts left us with wooden benches, and only one very small—and very delicate-looking—cushioned lounge seat, which does not have much presence to it in a room despite its gold quality.
In Housing, I believe what we lack is *presence.* Furniture is often small. "Grand" tables seat at most four, regular tables seat at most two, benches are typically thin. Culturally, with the addition of sofas, it became the centerpiece of homes to bring families together around the hearth, and later around televisions, to the point that couches became the symbol of a home, to the point where, if the citizens of Tamriel have access to this convenient invention, why do we not see more of it, and of bigger size to match its people? We would ideally have couches that we could place in front of a hearth. A gathering place for families or guests in a welcoming fashion. And I think small details like this are what makes some of Housing alien to us, because things like this sense of unity are missing.
Yet again recently I had to cobble my own couches to be full, with a back, and, most importantly, fill up space in a room, something I think helps fill space and mitigate the outcry of "more slots!"
As far as cultures who have yet to have "updated furnishings," we have Bretons and Wood Elves, although arguably Redguards and Orcs were not given much more furnishings in their respective themed DLCs either. I think the greatest potential candidate for a "big" cushioned couch would be the Bretons and would match with the style of their furniture. Or an updated Redguard cushioned couch, or even an Orcish leather couch.
TLDR: Plz add bigger "full" couches, such as a Breton Couch. They'd save slots, be lore friendly, and even make sense!
10
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Cillion3117✭✭✭✭✭Tamriel isn't earth, so who's to say they didn't have sofas a thousand years ago there. I'd love to see more options like this.2 -
TeruKisuke✭✭✭✭Cillion3117 wrote: »Tamriel isn't earth, so who's to say they didn't have sofas a thousand years ago there. I'd love to see more options like this.
This is very true. This is fantasy, after all, so we don’t have to even explain anything. I think, as far as what would be unlorefriendly would be something along the lines of modern flushable toilets (though even that can be justified with the inventions of Clockwork City), as most citizens carry chamber pots, something I have the unfortunacy of pickpocketing off of them from time to time. We even have electricity lighting.
I find it curious enough to look at real history vs eso fantasy lore because I think ZOS values the lore to the point where they might exclude something if they believe it to be too “modern,” and I think there were even threads where people argued against the inclusion of a teacup with handle as a furnishing, despite us having teapots. Later we got the Leyawiin teacup, which many players were quite excited about.
And, well... I guess I had to justify it to myself, too. I wasn’t sure if it’d be considered “too modern” for a game like this. But it is curious, facts such as most seating being wooden and unupholstered, as it is based on real life but we in ESO do not face those same cultural consequences. We would seek comfort if it was more easily accessible, something Tamriel has in droves. Yet it often acts on real-world Medieval logic and aesthetics. Quite curious.Edited by TeruKisuke on November 9, 2021 9:35PM2 -
Adremal✭✭✭✭
That's not quite correct, wooden furniture was prevalent in private and indoor settings - and quite modern given by the descriptions and what little pieces survived to our day (ironically many of the latter are charred and subsequently petrified pieces found in Pompeii and Herculaneum, for which we have the pyroclastic flow to thank for their preservation over two thousand years). I believe these are written well enough for google translate to handle it, but if it's not, images should suffice:TeruKisuke wrote: »In this sense it is similar to the Greek and Roman benches that were also of stone.
https://www.romanoimpero.com/2016/09/sedie-e-sgabelli.html
https://www.romanoimpero.com/2016/09/letti-e-divani.html2 -
TeruKisuke✭✭✭✭
That's not quite correct, wooden furniture was prevalent in private and indoor settings - and quite modern given by the descriptions and what little pieces survived to our day (ironically many of the latter are charred and subsequently petrified pieces found in Pompeii and Herculaneum, for which we have the pyroclastic flow to thank for their preservation over two thousand years). I believe these are written well enough for google translate to handle it, but if it's not, images should suffice:TeruKisuke wrote: »In this sense it is similar to the Greek and Roman benches that were also of stone.
https://www.romanoimpero.com/2016/09/sedie-e-sgabelli.html
https://www.romanoimpero.com/2016/09/letti-e-divani.html
I am learning a lot today. You got me there. I will say though that I can't find any records past those ancient times to suggest that they maintained that style of furniture, as it went out of style for over a thousand years, to which the Renaissance reintroduced it as the modern sofa. Do I have this correct? (Not fighting, genuinely curious and want to learn. Can't find that info anywhere past that time period. I am not a history expert nor do I pass myself off as such, as I prefaced and admitted beforehand.)
In my quoted comment I harkoned the Orcish thrones to ancient stone seating, for context, but I admit that I didn't realize the Klines looked so modern. A lot of them seem to be out of wicker and bronze-inlaid wood.0 -
Adremal✭✭✭✭TeruKisuke wrote: »
That's not quite correct, wooden furniture was prevalent in private and indoor settings - and quite modern given by the descriptions and what little pieces survived to our day (ironically many of the latter are charred and subsequently petrified pieces found in Pompeii and Herculaneum, for which we have the pyroclastic flow to thank for their preservation over two thousand years). I believe these are written well enough for google translate to handle it, but if it's not, images should suffice:TeruKisuke wrote: »In this sense it is similar to the Greek and Roman benches that were also of stone.
https://www.romanoimpero.com/2016/09/sedie-e-sgabelli.html
https://www.romanoimpero.com/2016/09/letti-e-divani.html
I am learning a lot today. You got me there. I will say though that I can't find any records past those ancient times to suggest that they maintained that style of furniture, as it went out of style for over a thousand years, to which the Renaissance reintroduced it as the modern sofa. Do I have this correct? (Not fighting, genuinely curious and want to learn. Can't find that info anywhere past that time period. I am not a history expert nor do I pass myself off as such, as I prefaced and admitted beforehand.)
In my quoted comment I harkoned the Orcish thrones to ancient stone seating, for context, but I admit that I didn't realize the Klines looked so modern. A lot of them seem to be out of wicker and bronze-inlaid wood.
I wasn't supposed to "get you" or come off as argumentative - did I? If so I apologise, there's a significant language barrier at play here, weird as it may sound English is my 4th language, (I was born in a bilingual/quasi-trilingual setting, I'm no genius).
As to the bolded part, I have no idea, I'm no expert in that department either. I do know a fair share of Roman history, visited dozens of archeological sites and translated hundreds of texts, many of which were "slices of life" so to say (as opposed to more known pieces of Latin literature), so I felt like shedding some light on that. Plus that site has some nice pictures, figured it could be inspirational for housing purposes. The whole pages under the "arredamento" section (literally: "furnishing") could be worth a look actually.1 -
TeruKisuke✭✭✭✭
I wasn't supposed to "get you" or come off as argumentative - did I? If so I apologise, there's a significant language barrier at play here, weird as it may sound English is my 4th language, (I was born in a bilingual/quasi-trilingual setting, I'm no genius).
Oh, no no, you're fine. I didn't mean "get me" as in "you were being offensive." I meant "getting me" as finding a contradiction in my knowledge on the subject. I appreciate your feedback and am looking to learn.
Sidenote but your English is quite good for being your fourth language.
Added Edit: I was "got" in a sense because I sat there for probably 20 minutes looking at articles, and I was stumped. Articles on the history of the modern sofa don't mention the Klines at all, simply as being invented in the Renaissance, but it's more like being reintroduced after a loooong time... And I also couldn't find any sources of what Greek furniture past that furniture looked like, only that it stopped looking like that period's furniture, hence why they were reintroduced a few hundred years ago.Edited by TeruKisuke on November 10, 2021 1:04AM1 -
Adremal✭✭✭✭TeruKisuke wrote: »
I wasn't supposed to "get you" or come off as argumentative - did I? If so I apologise, there's a significant language barrier at play here, weird as it may sound English is my 4th language, (I was born in a bilingual/quasi-trilingual setting, I'm no genius).
Oh, no no, you're fine. I didn't mean "get me" as in "you were being offensive." I meant "getting me" as finding a contradiction in my knowledge on the subject. I appreciate your feedback and am looking to learn.
Sidenote but your English is quite good for being your fourth language.
Added Edit: I was "got" in a sense because I sat there for probably 20 minutes looking at articles, and I was stumped. Articles on the history of the modern sofa don't mention the Klines at all, simply as being invented in the Renaissance, but it's more like being reintroduced after a loooong time... And I also couldn't find any sources of what Greek furniture past that furniture looked like, only that it stopped looking like that period's furniture, hence why they were reintroduced a few hundred years ago.
Thank you. And yes as you said, the Romans were much more "modern" than one could think. There are many virtual reconstruction projects that manage to give one an idea, such as
http://www.pompejiprojektet.se/index.php#
http://www.pompejiprojektet.se/insula.php
http://www.pompejiprojektet.se/visafilm.php?xmov=caecilius_iucundus.mp4
(three different links because that site is janky, doesn't work on Firefox for some reason, or perhaps it doesn't work on my Firefox because of the many script blockers I run on it)
I also suggest checking YouTube for similar reconstructions of, say, Hadrian's Villa or the Baths of Caracalla. Also done by universities, nothing amateurish, but I won't link them here because they feature "nudity" (in the form of loosely rendered 3D models bathing, which again are strictly academic, but I don't want to push the limits of what's allowed on the forums). Many roman baths especially came to mind courtesy of Sweetwater Cascades. There's nothing Roman about the house, granted, but the multiple pools and basement with low roof (that could be Roman, and could accomodate the furnaces for a calidarium). Plus it has a view on a rather Roman-looking aqueduct.2 -
TeruKisuke✭✭✭✭@Adremal The home mockups they made are gorgeous. Really like the patterns and murals for the atriums. It's clear what era ESO took inspiration from for some Leyawiin furniture, and interestingly enough some Dark Elf furniture given the odd similarities. (I think I remember people saying that was a lore discrepancy, which makes me wonder if we'd ever get different household Dark Elf furniture down the line. But I don't know a lot about that or what it should look like.)
It's a shame that I never got into furniture until starting Housing. A lot of stuff about houses is interesting to me. I once tried to even look into the different cuisines the Elder Scrolls races would partake in, which is a house project on indefinite hiatus, but I like looking at lore stuff and where things come from. I hope we can get more added to previous styles too, some of which don't have as much love as the expansions Elsweyr-onwards.
I'll watch the other videos when I get the chance. I'm always on the hunt for house ideas!0 -
maximusrex45✭✭✭✭I would love some larger couches and dinning tables, maybe even side boards. Being able to make full cozy spaces is something I enjoy, and that would certainly make it easier.1