World bosses, too many players, no drops

jle30303

This is just an ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE design, "top 12 damagers get loot, nobody else does".

The trouble being that these top 12 just sit there, and thus are the same people over and over again. They don't go away and LEAVE the chance for other ordinary players to get loot from the world bosses. To be frank, they must be deliberately griefing, they no longer need the loot (and certainly not the daily quests) but are denying it to others this way.

Saying "go improve your damage and become one of the top 12" just doesn't work. For starters, I'm a tank. Besides, not everybody has the gear... Or the CPs... casual players, even experienced normal players, are locked out. Even people with crazy high DPS like 60k are getting locked out by people with even crazier higher DPS like 90k. The same people get loot over and over again from a given world boss, while ordinary players get precisely nothing from a boss that dies so fast that its health bar goes from full to zero in an instant (and usually 5 seconds after it actually dies, due to lag).

This is terrible.

Do something about it. Make it so that every player who manages to get a hit in, AT ALL, gets something. The alternative, I assume in an attempt to keep the boss loot rarer, is simply not working.

VaranisArano

Dragon hunts from Elsweyr don't have the loot cap at 12 players. After they showed that they don't need it, I'm not sure why ZOS decided to keep the loot cap for everything else.

whitecrow

I don't know what their thinking was behind that at all.

WuffyCerulei

I do agree the limited drops should be completely undone and just have drops be like Incursions like dragons. But I do disagree that the whole "they don't need to be there" thing is wrong. A lot of antiquity leads drop from world bosses, and with the new curated drops, they may just be finishing their collections.

jle30303

Collections? Finishing, schminishing. I'm trying to START mine.

And the antique leads - and their rarity - again only serve to prove that actually getting drops from the bosses should not be limited to only the top 12, because that still means I have a 0% chance of getting one of those - even a 10% chance, or 5%, or 1%, would be better, but right now it's 0% if you don't have 90k dps.

I_killed_Vivec

To be fair they have to do something to limit the goodies - you can't just throw in an opportunistic ranged light attack, hide, and sit out the battle until the boss dies... and then triumphantly claim your spoils.

Now I don't deny that there could be a better way to spread the spoils - anyone who has seen a dolmen in Alik'r will be familiar with the mayhem of 40 or 50 players burning down anything that moves, and indeed they changed the minimum damage for dolmen.

However, I don't recognize your description of world bosses. Which bosses did you mean? Because I was running around Tamriel doing busy stuff last night, taking out world bosses when I came across them.

Most of them I soloed, nobody else around.

Some of them I started soloing, and other people joined in.

On a couple of occasions I joined in with some other people who'd started the fight.

And on one occasion I helped out a couple of players who had just wiped out to a boss (Balefire Island).

The point being, I didn't see a gang of twelve 90k dps merchants lingering around any one of them. In fact on most occasions I didn't see anyone near them. And that was Sunday evening, prime time EU.

jaws343

whitecrow wrote: »

I don't know what their thinking was behind that at all.

I thought it had to do with bots. Prevented a ton of bots from camping a wb and constantly getting drops.

But really, there are so many world bosses it's easy enough to find a different one that doesn't have players camping it.

I think it's fine still. You should have to contribute to the fight to get credit imo.

I know I am guilty of getting to a dolmen late and racing for the pinion to get credit. But it shouldn't be allowed, you should have to contribute in a real way to get loot from things. And a single light attach, or hitting a pinion at the end of the fight is stealing effort from the other players who are there imo.

kringled_1

I think the OP is referring to WBs in the deadlands. For now they are very camped, and there are frequently far more players present than can loot the body.

whitecrow

jaws343 wrote: »

I know I am guilty of getting to a dolmen late and racing for the pinion to get credit. But it shouldn't be allowed, you should have to contribute in a real way to get loot from things. And a single light attach, or hitting a pinion at the end of the fight is stealing effort from the other players who are there imo.

The only thing you might be "stealing" is one count towards Chainbreaker achievement from someone. Since I already have it, I always let others release the pinions, but just now I did the thing you mention. I had gotten to the dolmen, and as soon as the acolytes appeared, I got a phone call. When the call ended, the one other person there had just defeated the boss, so I grabbed the pinion. I would have helped...

But nobody loses anything, and everyone gets to loot the chest no matter how many there are there.

jle30303

Deadlands. There are only 2 world bosses there and both are being heavily camped. I just want to get a fair chance at normal boss loot from either of them. Don't even care about the antique lead that can drop, I just want, on principle, LOOT from a boss that died after I fought it.

I am doing literally everything I can, namely being there from the start of the fight to the end, (all of about 2 seconds, in so much lag that sometimes the boss doesn't appear on the screen before its health bar has depleted, and is difficult to make out from its two corpses that are already on the screen), spamming my five skills as hard as I can, and my ultimate if I actually have it. There is no more that I can do to "earn" it.

You're not "stealing effort from other players who are there" unless you actually *deprive* them of boss loot. In fact the reverse is happening: I am there, I am trying to make proper effort, other players are depriving me and there is nothing I can do about it.

SeaGtGruff

If they're just sitting there killing the same boss over and over again for an extended period of time, I suppose you could try reporting them. ZOS should be able to look at the game logs to see how long the player was camping the boss location, how many other players were at the same boss location, and whether the player being reported was always one of the top 12 DDs, thereby preventing other players from being able to loot the boss.

Of course, there's no rule that specifically says a player can't kill the same boss over and over again, and you could always go kill a different boss, so the only reason I can think of why anyone would want to farm a specific boss would be if it drops a special treasure/trophy item or named piece of overland gear. I don't know of any leads which are limited to specific world bosses, but then I don't keep up with which leads drop from which sources. And as far as achievements or clearing the map, I'd think that just helping to kill a boss should be enough to mark it off on your map, even without doing enough damage to get looting privileges.

The only other reason I can think for anyone wanting to farm the same boss over and over would be if it's the easiest boss in the game and the player is looking for an easy way to farm XP or CP. But if they're so powerful that they can always be among the top 12 DDs, I don't see why they'd need to pick an easier boss to kill.

SidraWillowsky

Yeah, it's REALLY unfair and unnecessary. And what about the tanks and healers out there? "Gear up for DPS and do higher DPS" seems like a terrible response (and one that I've seen in zone...).

If they want to prevent people from WB camping and are completely opposed to changing how the loot drop criteria works, they need to increase the loot drop cooldown or something instead of preventing 2/3 of the players at a WB from getting loot.

To get the boss kill to complete the daily quest, do I just need to have damaged it? I'm fine light attacking and not being in the top DDs if that helps others get loot as long as I get the quest objective done.

phileunderx2

If you want gear from The Deadlands go farm a portal.. You get gear from the final chest every time. Bind every piece as you get it. They drop everything.

drunkendx

Because of this 12 players rule it's been impossible to loot havocrels in DL during prime time.

Jeremy

jle30303 wrote: »

This is just an ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE design, "top 12 damagers get loot, nobody else does".

The trouble being that these top 12 just sit there, and thus are the same people over and over again. They don't go away and LEAVE the chance for other ordinary players to get loot from the world bosses. To be frank, they must be deliberately griefing, they no longer need the loot (and certainly not the daily quests) but are denying it to others this way.

Saying "go improve your damage and become one of the top 12" just doesn't work. For starters, I'm a tank. Besides, not everybody has the gear... Or the CPs... casual players, even experienced normal players, are locked out. Even people with crazy high DPS like 60k are getting locked out by people with even crazier higher DPS like 90k. The same people get loot over and over again from a given world boss, while ordinary players get precisely nothing from a boss that dies so fast that its health bar goes from full to zero in an instant (and usually 5 seconds after it actually dies, due to lag).

This is terrible.

Do something about it. Make it so that every player who manages to get a hit in, AT ALL, gets something. The alternative, I assume in an attempt to keep the boss loot rarer, is simply not working.

Yeah, it's very dumb design.

I play as a tank also, but I don't even attempt to actually "tank" them anymore because any amount of time I spend blocking or being stunned due to the boss attacking me is precious time I lose competing for DPS. But I'm not surprised. This game has an annoying habit of catering almost exclusively to DPS. It's a pattern and they really need to include some people who play exclusively as a tanks and healers on the development staff. Because they have a bad habit of always just assuming everyone plays high-end DPS builds.

kringled_1

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

If they're just sitting there killing the same boss over and over again for an extended period of time, I suppose you could try reporting them. ZOS should be able to look at the game logs to see how long the player was camping the boss location, how many other players were at the same boss location, and whether the player being reported was always one of the top 12 DDs, thereby preventing other players from being able to loot the boss.

Of course, there's no rule that specifically says a player can't kill the same boss over and over again, and you could always go kill a different boss, so the only reason I can think of why anyone would want to farm a specific boss would be if it drops a special treasure/trophy item or named piece of overland gear. I don't know of any leads which are limited to specific world bosses, but then I don't keep up with which leads drop from which sources. And as far as achievements or clearing the map, I'd think that just helping to kill a boss should be enough to mark it off on your map, even without doing enough damage to get looting privileges.

The only other reason I can think for anyone wanting to farm the same boss over and over would be if it's the easiest boss in the game and the player is looking for an easy way to farm XP or CP. But if they're so powerful that they can always be among the top 12 DDs, I don't see why they'd need to pick an easier boss to kill.

There are several leads that only drop from a specific WB, and in the case of the Deadlands, both WBs have a specific lead drop associated with them. Reporting players for trying to farm a drop at the only source it has seems like a misuse of the feature.

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Yeah, it's REALLY unfair and unnecessary. And what about the tanks and healers out there? "Gear up for DPS and do higher DPS" seems like a terrible response (and one that I've seen in zone...).

If they want to prevent people from WB camping and are completely opposed to changing how the loot drop criteria works, they need to increase the loot drop cooldown or something instead of preventing 2/3 of the players at a WB from getting loot.

To get the boss kill to complete the daily quest, do I just need to have damaged it? I'm fine light attacking and not being in the top DDs if that helps others get loot as long as I get the quest objective done.

The daily quest is definitely much more forgiving and I've gotten completion without being able to loot the boss. I have the lead from one of the two zone WBs, so that one I can be a little more forgiving on, but I still want to grab the lead from the other so it'll be full dps every time I'm there.

SeaGtGruff

kringled_1 wrote: »

There are several leads that only drop from a specific WB, and in the case of the Deadlands, both WBs have a specific lead drop associated with them. Reporting players for trying to farm a drop at the only source it has seems like a misuse of the feature.

If a specific boss is the only source for a specific lead, then I can see why players might be incentivized to camp that boss.

As far as my suggestion of reporting a player, I would think that ZOS actually looks at the available data to determine whether there's some kind of abuse going on. And if a player is being reported for camping a boss due to the way that ZOS themselves deliberately coded something in their game-- well, I assume the Support rep who happened to process that report would just ignore the report and move on.

kargen27

kringled_1 wrote: »

I think the OP is referring to WBs in the deadlands. For now they are very camped, and there are frequently far more players present than can loot the body.

Probably the only answer is to put drops on a timer and if you are still on a timer after getting loot from the boss your damage doesn't count as one of the twelve. So maybe once every twenty minutes you can loot the boss. Doesn't help a tank much though while the bosses are popular and I think that was the original concern.

amapola76

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

To be fair they have to do something to limit the goodies - you can't just throw in an opportunistic ranged light attack, hide, and sit out the battle until the boss dies... and then triumphantly claim your spoils.

The problem is, there's simply no way for the game mechanics to ascertain intent.

Did you get in one puny light attack because you were trying to free ride on everyone else there, or did you only get in one puny light attack because there were so many other players that it caused your game to lag? Or because as soon as you got in your one attack, the boss was already dead? Who knows? Who can make that distinction? Certainly not the game!

I have seen people suggest in the past that perhaps WB health could scale with the number of players attacking. I don't know whether that's feasible, either, but if there were a way to do that, it might make sense. Wouldn't solve the lag issue, but it would help with the "pulling your weight" question, because pulling your weight means something different when there are two other players involved versus 32.

Although, to be honest, at the end of the day, I don't really care if someone else is a free rider. If I'm so low level and there are so few of us that we can't kill the boss without that one person, then they aren't getting anything anyway. If it's me and literally only one other person, I'm not going to even start without them. If there are thirty of us there, and one person shirks their duty, so what? As long as I get mine, I don't really care if they get a few extra gold or a piece of armor or even a lead without working that hard for it. It doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the game in any way.

Soulshine

jle30303 wrote: »

This is just an ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE design, "top 12 damagers get loot, nobody else does".

The trouble being that these top 12 just sit there, and thus are the same people over and over again. They don't go away and LEAVE the chance for other ordinary players to get loot from the world bosses. To be frank, they must be deliberately griefing, they no longer need the loot (and certainly not the daily quests) but are denying it to others this way.

Saying "go improve your damage and become one of the top 12" just doesn't work. For starters, I'm a tank. Besides, not everybody has the gear... Or the CPs... casual players, even experienced normal players, are locked out. Even people with crazy high DPS like 60k are getting locked out by people with even crazier higher DPS like 90k. The same people get loot over and over again from a given world boss, while ordinary players get precisely nothing from a boss that dies so fast that its health bar goes from full to zero in an instant (and usually 5 seconds after it actually dies, due to lag).

This is terrible.

Do something about it. Make it so that every player who manages to get a hit in, AT ALL, gets something. The alternative, I assume in an attempt to keep the boss loot rarer, is simply not working.

I would say that this rule of 12 is not always what it appears though.

I have spent the last couple of days in Deadlands farming the leads for the Spaulder shoulder which I now need for trials on my healers. I camped the bosses, just like everyone else did. I was on my healers, with healer CPs, healer gear, and nothing particularly different other than more destro and class skills on my back bar for this. Once bosses spawned I spammed the living be-jesus out of every single one, including dropping my ultimates. I got the leads relatively quickly from all bosses in question with less than 10k dps (per Hodors) on two of them, 12-15k on others. Just focus on dmg, not tanking or healing. The drops will come. Might take a few pulls as it did for me, but hey if I can get them with lousy dps, so can anyone else. You just gotta get in there QUICK!

N3CR01

Agreed. Did the two WB's in Deadlands on my main (a tank) and got nothing

Tommy_The_Gun

Tbh. "only top dps get the loot" may have made sense before One Tamriel, but now it is actually more harmful than helpful.

Back then we had levelled zones and the loot limit may have to do with levelled gear & experience points. So that players with lower level would not go to higher level zone & level up instantly. But now that all zones have same level - it does not makes sense.

Imho this "only top dps get the loot" is a very outdated mechanics (pre One Tamriel) and should be scrapped long time ago.

spartaxoxo

I agree that top 12 players should be dropped.

But no, it's not griefing to camp a boss. Reporting someone for being better than you is ridiculous. The reason you're not getting loot in that system is they are better. And everyone is entitled to try to farm the bosses as much as they need. It's massively presumptuous to assume someone doesn't need to be farming the boss. Gear, cp, leads, etc are all legit things for people to farm from a world boss that may be easier for that person to do by just camping the same one.

And even if they don't need anything persay, it's legitimate of them to repeat content they just like doing.

It's only griefing if they are taunting you or something, not just because they are farming and do more damage than you.

SeaGtGruff

Unless the boss is the only source of a specific thing that's being farmed (as is apparently the case here), the practice of camping on that boss for an extended period of time strikes me as being a terribly inefficient way of farming XP or CP, or even just overland gear, since you could be off killing 1 or 2 additional bosses in the amount of time you're spending just waiting for that particular boss to respawn. That would be like camping one of a zone's three dolmens waiting for it to reactivate, when you could be running from dolmen to dolmen in a loop.

But since this is apparently the only boss that drops whatever must-have thingy that players are obsessing over, I guess it's somewhat less silly (IMHO) to camp the boss hour after hour, day after day, when you could be off doing other content.

UntilValhalla13

Keep your blockade down before it spawns, drop a destro ulti and weave crushing shock.

Tommy_The_Gun

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The reason you're not getting loot in that system is they are better.

Yeah, but... how can one even compare dps / tank / healer and say that one is better than other ? Dps is better only in terms of, well... damge. In other departments it is worse. So if I am a good player, but I play a support tank, I am automatically in a lost position because the system favors damge dealers. It seems to be very unhealthy for the game to push 2/3 of roles aside.

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

Keep your blockade down before it spawns, drop a destro ulti and weave crushing shock.

What If I run stamina build ? Should I run destro ulti & destro stick on a stamina build too ? I figured out that aoe dots are best to "catch" the game on register your hits on the boss during 3 - 5 second period when it "melts". Arrow Barrage & Caltrops are the only stamina aoe dots I can think of. Is there anything else ?

Susan_Sto

It's just a problem right now as the Deadlands dlc is a week old, it will get better as people camping the bosses drop off.

This happens with every new zone especially the 4th quarter dlc. Considering how many times we'll have to complete the daily WB quest to get the motifs everyone will get drops.

I'm running an endgame build and still haven't had a drop from either of the wb's. Patience is the only remedy.

joerginger

It won't be long until you'll be alone at the world bosses. That initial rush won't last long.

EF321

Are these really suggestions to report players for farming in MMO?

Herr_Flocke

jle30303 wrote: »

they must be deliberately griefing, they no longer need the loot (and certainly not the daily quests) but are denying it to others this way.

frankly, for the dailys to complete you don't need looting rights on the boss.

And on heavily camped bosses like the wb's in the deadlands atm, you won't get looting rights on characters that can't do damage. No matter if the same people are camping the boss or if some other halfway competent dps will fight the boss.

So your best bet will be to either not fight the wb at prime time, or wait a few weeks until the hype of the new expansion dies down. There'll be plenty of opportunity to solo those bosses in the future.

redlink1979

jle30303 wrote: »

(...) top 12 damagers get loot, nobody else does (...)

You need to deal damage equivalent to a minimum of 10% of the boss total HP in order to be able to loot it.