Idea for tackling ball groups

neferpitou73

LarsS wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

Or.... just fix healing.

Any so called fix wont work, if you would remove cross heal and/or heal stack the zerg would suffer much more than the balls. An organized group will always have an advantage. What zos can do is to reduce the disadvantage for new and unorganized players. No-CP makes it more even for new ESO players and no proc sets reduces the raids ability to optimize build composition. Thus the advantage for balls are smaller.

Exactly. The issue with trying to fix the ball group issues with nerfs is that we're organized so we can adapt to those changes. While a zerg consisting of random players is going to struggle a lot more.

Karm1cOne

Ball groups win by coordination and planning. Removing stacking heals would not change the coordination or the planning. Adding new sets or siege doesn't either. Why shouldn't an organized group kill unorganized pugs or zerglings?
If anything zerg groups should be nerfed. They bring the real lag.

Tranquilizer

You can't make the weaker strong by making the stronger weak.

Everything ZOS does to hurt ballgroups hurts pug zergs and solo/small scale players even more. It's a joke that the set that primarily was designed to counter ballgroups (Dark Convergence) is now solely used by that ballgroups to consecutive pull their opponents into their damage ultimates.

It's impossible to enable unorganised or small scale groups or solo players to beat an organized group, plain and simple. The only thing ZOS can do is to try to close the power gap between them to a degree. Disabling proc sets in pvp would be a step in the right direction imo.

neferpitou73

Tranquilizer wrote: »

You can't make the weaker strong by making the stronger weak.

Everything ZOS does to hurt ballgroups hurts pug zergs and solo/small scale players even more. It's a joke that the set that primarily was designed to counter ballgroups (Dark Convergence) is now solely used by that ballgroups to consecutive pull their opponents into their damage ultimates.

It's impossible to enable unorganised or small scale groups or solo players to beat an organized group, plain and simple. The only thing ZOS can do is to try to close the power gap between them to a degree. Disabling proc sets in pvp would be a step in the right direction imo.

They already did that in Ravenwatch. Where things are feel a bit better on that front. However, it's somewhat hard to tell whether it's the lack of proc sets that's making ball groups weaker or the fact that not a lot of ball groups play in No Proc

TequilaFire

More would play if it was CP noproc I bet.

neferpitou73

I don't think so. I've always said that the popularity of no-proc is overestimated on the forums. The redistribution in pops after that decision seems to support that. Raven PCNA is basically a ghost town except for AD and the nights AoC gets on.

LarsS

Raven have a decent population on EU

divnyi

LarsS wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

Or.... just fix healing.

Any so called fix wont work, if you would remove cross heal and/or heal stack the zerg would suffer much more than the balls.

Yeah, as if all zerg do is spamming radiants and vigors from each member.

Don't be ridiculous, cross heals will hit balls much harder than zergs. Nobody in zergs are expecting to get healed anyway, and when players play as healers, they pack burst heals too.

gamma71

Organized group vs mindless zerg doesn't matter what you do your gonna get smoked Everytime. And most of what zos does to counter ball groups backfires anyways look at Dc lol. Good smart players that group together are always gonna be better than the mindless zerglings and wanna be solo heroes.

LarsS

divnyi wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

Or.... just fix healing.

Any so called fix wont work, if you would remove cross heal and/or heal stack the zerg would suffer much more than the balls.

Yeah, as if all zerg do is spamming radiants and vigors from each member.

Don't be ridiculous, cross heals will hit balls much harder than zergs. Nobody in zergs are expecting to get healed anyway, and when players play as healers, they pack burst heals too.

You seem to have forgotten the test, when crosshealing was shut off.

divnyi

LarsS wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

Or.... just fix healing.

Any so called fix wont work, if you would remove cross heal and/or heal stack the zerg would suffer much more than the balls.

Yeah, as if all zerg do is spamming radiants and vigors from each member.

Don't be ridiculous, cross heals will hit balls much harder than zergs. Nobody in zergs are expecting to get healed anyway, and when players play as healers, they pack burst heals too.

You seem to have forgotten the test, when crosshealing was shut off.

CROSS healing was shut off outside the party. In party it was still on. Zergs often run in different parties or without a party. Balls run in one party and it had zero effect on them.

Yeh, absolutely the same.

LarsS

Exactly, that hit the zerg much more than the organized groups. One could remove all healing the organized groups would still win.

Comparing the unorganized zerg or lfg groups to a decent guild raid, is like collecting 11 persons from the street and put them against a team from a football club, they will loose. No change of rules will change that.

Fortunately in eso some things can be done and thats why ZOS created the non-proc non-cp campaign. It at least reduces the capacity gap.

Amottica

LarsS wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

Or.... just fix healing.

Any so called fix wont work, if you would remove cross heal and/or heal stack the zerg would suffer much more than the balls. An organized group will always have an advantage. What zos can do is to reduce the disadvantage for new and unorganized players. No-CP makes it more even for new ESO players and no proc sets reduces the raids ability to optimize build composition. Thus the advantage for balls are smaller.

I would suggest there is no easy fix other than to organize and play well as a group. Case in point, those proc sets also help the new player can usually do better with proc sets as they are still learning to play the game.

Also, an organized group should always be able to outperform a group of unorganized players. They know what they are doing where as the unorganized group of players do not and are just doing their own thing. At the root of the problem, that is the issue and unorganized players should not expect their "group" to do as well as an organized group.

LarsS

Amottica wrote: »

Case in point, those proc sets also help the new player can usually do better with proc sets as they are still learning to play the game.

I practice it's not the case, a decent ball of 12 with proc set builds supporting each other, increses the gap between the ball and the new player. only an organized group can make full use of the proc sets. Dark conversion is a good example, it was designed to kill balls, but it strenghend them.

Alchimiste1

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

They could be killed before, even without special sets or siege.

It's an issue of counterplay becoming more and more limited.

You could hit them while they were out of their healing springs, but now they can stack regeneration. You could pull them out of the ball and lock them down, but now they have permanent root/snare immunity from Snow Treaders and higher CC immunity uptime from CP. You could even just slowly pick off player by player, but now they have necro resurrection.

Plaguebreak should've helped, but they can just have 8 players back-bar resto and stack so much healing that even coldfire doesn't really matter, making purge redundant in most situations anyway. Healing debuffs? Nerfed into the ground several patches ago.

Personally I think the best solution would be to revisit some of these past changes. Regeneration stacking being the most obvious one.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this

AuraNebula

Y'all complaing about ballgroups, like there hasn't been a solution for years. Tether bombers. Get 2 or 3 of them together and watch how fast they drop. Honestly, there are counters but everyone just wants to nerf everything that kills them.

A large group of players who cant be killed?
"Not fair."
A solo player who kills a large group of players?
"Not fair, nerf them into the ground."
Large groups everywhere.
"Not fair their are no counters to large groups."

divnyi

LarsS wrote: »

Comparing the unorganized zerg or lfg groups to a decent guild raid, is like collecting 11 persons from the street and put them against a team from a football club, they will loose. No change of rules will change that.

I wanna see that truly skillful ballgroups when they remove their HoTs that carried them every patch so far.

LarsS wrote: »

Fortunately in eso some things can be done and thats why ZOS created the non-proc non-cp campaign. It at least reduces the capacity gap.

Non-proc non-cp still has HoTs stacking.

LarsS

divnyi wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

Comparing the unorganized zerg or lfg groups to a decent guild raid, is like collecting 11 persons from the street and put them against a team from a football club, they will loose. No change of rules will change that.

I wanna see that truly skillful ballgroups when they remove their HoTs that carried them every patch so far.

LarsS wrote: »

Fortunately in eso some things can be done and thats why ZOS created the non-proc non-cp campaign. It at least reduces the capacity gap.

Non-proc non-cp still has HoTs stacking.

The primary reason a ball group is strong, is not skills or any type or sets. Ball groups are strong because they are on voice chat, they work together and everyone know what to do and how to support the rest of the group. Just like in a good football team were every player have a specific task. You can change any mechaninsm you want, ball groups will come out on top. What you can do is to reduce the advantage, I doubt that removing the HoTs would help, I think it would hurt the zerg more. Remember when Plauge breaker made it impossible to purge, if anything the ball groups got stronger. Non-CP makes it easier for low CP players to participate in pvp, so more may get interested. Non-proc reduces the heal and damage bust that a ball group can achive due to optimization.

divnyi

LarsS wrote: »

The primary reason a ball group is strong, is not skills or any type or sets. Ball groups are strong because they are on voice chat, they work together and everyone know what to do and how to support the rest of the group.

Right, and that support is "everyone click HoT" + role-specific things. Without HoT in group vs group fight players will die as fast as they die in shooting games. Balls will be no different.

Surely ball groups will still win zergs of equal size. It's the question of "what's the multiplier". Currently it's very high. I bet that without hot stacking double zerg size will consistently wipe balls without any issues.

TequilaFire

And we need more zergs why?

LarsS

divnyi wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

The primary reason a ball group is strong, is not skills or any type or sets. Ball groups are strong because they are on voice chat, they work together and everyone know what to do and how to support the rest of the group.

Right, and that support is "everyone click HoT" + role-specific things. Without HoT in group vs group fight players will die as fast as they die in shooting games. Balls will be no different.

Surely ball groups will still win zergs of equal size. It's the question of "what's the multiplier". Currently it's very high. I bet that without hot stacking double zerg size will consistently wipe balls without any issues.

First zergs use HoT to, without it they will be down even faster. A ball group focus burst damage where people stack, then moves of regenerating, drawing the zerg to another choke point then again drops a focused damage burst and so on. You can expect that all ball members have self heal so no. without HoT the zerg would supper more than a ball.

neferpitou73

Whoever says removing Hots will kill off ball groups has no idea what they're talking about. Will it hurt, sure. But we'll just add another healer and keep on trucking. Because we can organize like that and the zerg can't.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

I had a brain blast for a set that I think might actually work amazingly on ball groups. A proc set that has an irresistible single target pull with very high range. Same rules as any other pull, so no ripping people off of walls or towers.

Chains of the schemer Prince

*insert 2-4pc bonus here*

5pc: Using a single target ability on an enemy pulls them to you with an irresistible and unbreakable chain. While chained you and the enemy cannot move more then 5m apart and cannot be healed or deal damage for 5 seconds. Only works on players!

Ball groups rely on their heal spam and mobility to overcome all opposition, so they would only be hurting themselves by using the set. A single focused aim could pull 1 balling 40m out of his group and make him easy prey for the horde of chasers. Repeat this a couple times and their entire group would be dismantled with ease. Only way I could see them coping is by all going permablock tank to survive the 5 seconds without heals, but then they are just annoying and not dangerous. OP? Only if you have team mates around or else its just 5 seconds of being chained to someone you can't harm. Rewards teamwork and heavily punishes players for relying on heals and mobility for survival. Not totally un survivable either if you got enough stamina to roll or block for 5 seconds. Even using shield spells is a counter as long as you aren't completely nuked by his team. Cloaking will make you invisible, but still chained. Also has the added benefit of being amazing for removing annoying tower humpers from your resources.

neferpitou73

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

I had a brain blast for a set that I think might actually work amazingly on ball groups. A proc set that has an irresistible single target pull with very high range. Same rules as any other pull, so no ripping people off of walls or towers.

Chains of the schemer Prince

*insert 2-4pc bonus here*

5pc: Using a single target ability on an enemy pulls them to you with an irresistible and unbreakable chain. While chained you and the enemy cannot move more then 5m apart and cannot be healed or deal damage for 5 seconds. Only works on players!

Ball groups rely on their heal spam and mobility to overcome all opposition, so they would only be hurting themselves by using the set. A single focused aim could pull 1 balling 40m out of his group and make him easy prey for the horde of chasers. Repeat this a couple times and their entire group would be dismantled with ease. Only way I could see them coping is by all going permablock tank to survive the 5 seconds without heals, but then they are just annoying and not dangerous. OP? Only if you have team mates around or else its just 5 seconds of being chained to someone you can't harm. Rewards teamwork and heavily punishes players for relying on heals and mobility for survival. Not totally un survivable either if you got enough stamina to roll or block for 5 seconds. Even using shield spells is a counter as long as you aren't completely nuked by his team. Cloaking will make you invisible, but still chained. Also has the added benefit of being amazing for removing annoying tower humpers from your resources.

First, we already have skills that to do this well enough. Chains, silver leash, leap Streak through the tail of the group to separate them.

Secondly, you cannot fix mechanics problems with sets. There is no magic bullet that will kill ball groups. If you want to "fix" ball groups you do it by attacking mechanics that make them successful, e.g. nerf purge, swift, change steed. And you provide easier ways for opposition to coordinate to oppose them.

divnyi

neferpitou73 wrote: »

you do it by attacking mechanics that make them successful, e.g. nerf purge, swift, change steed

... remove heal stacking

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

neferpitou73 wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

I had a brain blast for a set that I think might actually work amazingly on ball groups. A proc set that has an irresistible single target pull with very high range. Same rules as any other pull, so no ripping people off of walls or towers.

Chains of the schemer Prince

*insert 2-4pc bonus here*

5pc: Using a single target ability on an enemy pulls them to you with an irresistible and unbreakable chain. While chained you and the enemy cannot move more then 5m apart and cannot be healed or deal damage for 5 seconds. Only works on players!

Ball groups rely on their heal spam and mobility to overcome all opposition, so they would only be hurting themselves by using the set. A single focused aim could pull 1 balling 40m out of his group and make him easy prey for the horde of chasers. Repeat this a couple times and their entire group would be dismantled with ease. Only way I could see them coping is by all going permablock tank to survive the 5 seconds without heals, but then they are just annoying and not dangerous. OP? Only if you have team mates around or else its just 5 seconds of being chained to someone you can't harm. Rewards teamwork and heavily punishes players for relying on heals and mobility for survival. Not totally un survivable either if you got enough stamina to roll or block for 5 seconds. Even using shield spells is a counter as long as you aren't completely nuked by his team. Cloaking will make you invisible, but still chained. Also has the added benefit of being amazing for removing annoying tower humpers from your resources.

First, we already have skills that to do this well enough. Chains, silver leash, leap Streak through the tail of the group to separate them.

Secondly, you cannot fix mechanics problems with sets. There is no magic bullet that will kill ball groups. If you want to "fix" ball groups you do it by attacking mechanics that make them successful, e.g. nerf purge, swift, change steed. And you provide easier ways for opposition to coordinate to oppose them.

None of those work though because they are all chugging immovable potions on cd and if they do get cced they just trot back into the ball within a few seconds. Chains and silver leash are also no where near long enough range to truly separate them from their ball. They will still be in range of heal spam or have 10,000 hots still active.

I disagree that set would totally fix the ball group problem. It may makes it own problem, but at least it won't lag the game out. All this time Zos has tried to add these big aoe attacks in to kill balls, but we needed a way to deal with them 1 by 1 this whole time. If you don't want a set then we can just increase the range of pull skills to 40m. They are pretty lousy and unused anyways.

LarsS

If one want to reduce the gap between ball groups and the common player, one must look at mechanisms where ball groups can create an advantage. I think it has been proven enough over the years that skills and sets dont work. There is a few things that may work.
1. Hard core ball group members have max needed cp, many players have not, so go non-cp to reduce the gap.
2. A ball group can optimize the proc set effects randoms can't, so go non-proc.
3. Increase groups to 24 it give the pug groups a better chance, since some groups are semi permanent, they will have a better chance if they have a numerical advantage.

Point 1 and 2 is what you have on Ravenwatch, if you tried it out, you will see that the ball groups still are quite strong, but less so than on the cp campaings.

Einstein_

Why do ppl still think that its unfair that a group of good PvPers, with years of pratice in that group and a group setup wich they worked on for months, should not be able to take on 3x times their number of enemys ?

its doable for a decend 1vX player so its for a group, and it should be like that its not a solo Battle Royal game.

on PC/EU GH are alot groups:

Draco(EP)
Legion(EP)
Blues Bane(EP)
something pretentious (EP)
Hard to Kill (EP)
Steppenwolf (EP) ~inaktiv

Lokis (AD)
Yovens (AD)
RPC (AD) ~inaktiv
Meridias (AD) ~inaktiv

Project Nova (DC)
Drunken Indriks (DC)
Faster Guys kill(DC) ~inaktiv
Fist (DC/AD) ~inaktiv ?
Vodka (DC) ~inaktiv

i might forgot one, but be serious who of the aktive groups is surving more then 15 enemys while getting sieged ?
ONE !!

And they are by far the most tryhards, so you cry for groupplay nerfs only for one group ? Becasue every other group cant even survive 12 v 15-20.

deleted221205-002626

I would adjust the snow treaders since theyre likly the biggest imbalance.. make them not permanant immovable but proc on and off maybe every 10-12secs can proc on for 6 when encountering a CC.. this will still give them all good surprise immovable uptime but in a situation where 100 people are hammering them with ults stuns etc and unable to stop or even damage them it will greatly stagger the "groups" uptimes n break it up a bit making killing them more possible.

Einstein_

michaelpatterson wrote: »

I would adjust the snow treaders since theyre likly the biggest imbalance.. make them not permanant immovable but proc on and off maybe every 10-12secs can proc on for 6 when encountering a CC.. this will still give them all good surprise immovable uptime but in a situation where 100 people are hammering them with ults stuns etc and unable to stop or even damage them it will greatly stagger the "groups" uptimes n break it up a bit making killing them more possible.

that will change nothing, groups can just build 5 medium and can all use shuffel (which they are already doing btw).....

why do ppl think they can nerf optimized gameplay between good players ?