New Mag DK - Burning Spellweave Question

FlipFl0p

Hi all - I am trying to come up with a build for my new Mag DK for PVP. I'm just wearing whatever I got in the mail and still having fun so would love to craft something.

I just got a piece of Burning Spellweave and the 5th set piece bonus applies flame status and boosts my spell damage.

Is this now rendered moot by the changes to charged inferno staffs which have a 420% chance to apply status effects anyway?

I'm new at theory crafting so hope this isn't a daft question.

I've heard Daedric Trickery, Ironblood and Shalks are good so if anyone can suggest good combinations for me for PvP I'd be grateful, cheers!

GetAgrippa

Unless something has changed, the "burning" effect from BSW is separate from the burning status effect. So you can apply both. Charged wouldn't be a waste.

Of the sets you listed, Daedrick Trickery would be a good set to back bar. I wouldn't full body it though, as you can just flip back bar, do some damage with degeneration or something to get the proc, and then go back to front bar.

I'm on console so my build may not be necessary if you're on PC, since I don't know how good magdk sustain is on the new patch, but I do Spinners dual wield front bar (you can easily do BSW instead,) 2 piece monster, 1 piece heavy trainee chest, back bar Warlock, and malacath. If you don't have and don't want to farm something like Warlock, the new wretched vitality crafted sustain set looks nice to back bar. You can proc both conditions with Race Against Time I believe. I'm just working on the assumption that Magdk still needs some level of sustain.

FlipFl0p

GetAgrippa wrote: »

Unless something has changed, the "burning" effect from BSW is separate from the burning status effect. So you can apply both. Charged wouldn't be a waste.

Of the sets you listed, Daedrick Trickery would be a good set to back bar. I wouldn't full body it though, as you can just flip back bar, do some damage with degeneration or something to get the proc, and then go back to front bar.

I'm on console so my build may not be necessary if you're on PC, since I don't know how good magdk sustain is on the new patch, but I do Spinners dual wield front bar (you can easily do BSW instead,) 2 piece monster, 1 piece heavy trainee chest, back bar Warlock, and malacath. If you don't have and don't want to farm something like Warlock, the new wretched vitality crafted sustain set looks nice to back bar. You can proc both conditions with Race Against Time I believe. I'm just working on the assumption that Magdk still needs some level of sustain.

Thank you for the very detailed reply! I don't necessarily have to use BSW I'm open to anything but it seems like it would work well. I have only random gear I got in the mail as I'm level 40 but my sustain has been fine, I had to go change my mundus to spell damage from magicka recovery as it was too high (2200) but it's just random pieces not a proper build.

I am indeed on PC.

Funnily enough I just tuned into a live PvP Mag DK stream and he is using very similar to what you recommended:

FB BSW| BB IronBlood| Skoria | Trainee | Malacath

GetAgrippa

I personally would never use Ironblood on a magdk. I just can't imagine slowing myself down that much. I prefer to be quick to avoid damage, not try to tank it. I also do ice staff on back bar though so I can block a lot of damage, and I can still get mag back from the Warlock proc while blocking. But hey, if it works for that player, it might work for you.

If you had 2200 sustain, I assume that means you have 3 mag Regen enchants on your jewelry. I personally do 3 infused spell damage enchants, hence my need for a back bar sustain set.

Honestly the difference between sub 50 pvp and over 50 pvp is pretty drastic in my opinion. When you get over 50 and play with some fully leveled toons you'll get a better idea of what kind of build will work for you. I think you're on the right track though.

Elo106

You could backbar Daedric Trickery. Also remember every time you inflict burning you get magicka so theres no applying too much burning on MagDK

FlipFl0p

Elo106 wrote: »

You could backbar Daedric Trickery. Also remember every time you inflict burning you get magicka so theres no applying too much burning on MagDK

What skill do you think I should use on the back bar to proc Daedric Trickery? Or would it just be a case of doing a light attack with a resto staff (or ice as recommended above)?

GetAgrippa

FlipFl0p wrote: »

What skill do you think I should use on the back bar to proc Daedric Trickery? Or would it just be a case of doing a light attack with a resto staff (or ice as recommended above)?

Degeneration for major sorcery is what most people do.

FlipFl0p

GetAgrippa wrote: »

I personally would never use Ironblood on a magdk. I just can't imagine slowing myself down that much. I prefer to be quick to avoid damage, not try to tank it. I also do ice staff on back bar though so I can block a lot of damage, and I can still get mag back from the Warlock proc while blocking. But hey, if it works for that player, it might work for you.

If you had 2200 sustain, I assume that means you have 3 mag Regen enchants on your jewelry. I personally do 3 infused spell damage enchants, hence my need for a back bar sustain set.

Honestly the difference between sub 50 pvp and over 50 pvp is pretty drastic in my opinion. When you get over 50 and play with some fully leveled toons you'll get a better idea of what kind of build will work for you. I think you're on the right track though.

Do you have any thoughts on Ancient Dragonguard? I spent ages getting access to it but saw some comments that put me off it, along the lines of it reduces your damage when you need more damage i.e. under 50% health - I was thinking though, when I get under 50 on Mag DK, could set them off balance and do a couple of whips to get the health back. The extra resistance would give me time to do that, I'm still new and very slow especially when that lag kicks in.

GetAgrippa

I've honestly never tried Ancient Dragonguard. However it's not something that really fits into my preferred build type right now. I've seen it referred to as a "noob trap," and what that meant was that for newer PvPers it might seem like a great thing to get more resistance when you drop low on health, but most of the time as a dps, your resistances aren't going to be what save your life. Smart management of resources, intelligent play, use of line of sight, and your own heals will be what save you. Resistances just prolong the inevitable in a lot of situations. Your healing on DK scales with your damage so I prefer to push damage numbers rather than wear sets that provide mitigation. Instead I just do 3 heavy 4 light for a nice balance between their bonuses and penalties.

My preferred build type in pvp right now is to front bar a set, back bar a set, wear a monster set, 1 trainee and a mythic. I do this on most of my pvp toons but especially on my magdk. I just want to get every advantage I can being on a mag melee toon, and fully bodying a set doesn't really fit into that. However, that's just me. I'm certain there are other very good MagDks on the forums that would have other suggestions.

Vevvev

I still use BSW because it's just extra spell damage that can carry over to my back bar. MY build pretty much relies on set bonuses carrying over on bar swaps so the set is pretty good at doing that. Also as long as you don't score 2 burning procs in less than half a second it should be good.

Basically, don't make Burning Embers the first thing you hit an enemy with and you'll be fine. (Since that's two guaranteed burning status effects side by side if that's what you open with.)

GetAgrippa

Oh yeah, another set you can try if you want to fully body or double bar a crafted set, and still have some room to learn and improve, would be Heartland Conqueror. You could do sharpened front bar for a huge amount of penetration (or even charged for a ridiculous amount of burning procs) and defensive or powered back bar. Defensive with heartland would give you over 6k more resistances on back bar, and compared to Ancient Dragonguard you wouldn't have to be low on health and sacrifice damage to get that resistance. You just have to defend on back bar until you're ready to go front bar and be aggressive. And powered would boost your healing by 18% total which is really nice if you find yourself having to spam coag. Plus the set gives you both resources which is nice when you're still getting the hang of a new toon.

FlipFl0p

GetAgrippa wrote: »

I've honestly never tried Ancient Dragonguard. However it's not something that really fits into my preferred build type right now. I've seen it referred to as a "noob trap," and what that meant was that for newer PvPers it might seem like a great thing to get more resistance when you drop low on health, but most of the time as a dps, your resistances aren't going to be what save your life. Smart management of resources, intelligent play, use of line of sight, and your own heals will be what save you. Resistances just prolong the inevitable in a lot of situations. Your healing on DK scales with your damage so I prefer to push damage numbers rather than wear sets that provide mitigation. Instead I just do 3 heavy 4 light for a nice balance between their bonuses and penalties.

My preferred build type in pvp right now is to front bar a set, back bar a set, wear a monster set, 1 trainee and a mythic. I do this on most of my pvp toons but especially on my magdk. I just want to get every advantage I can being on a mag melee toon, and fully bodying a set doesn't really fit into that. However, that's just me. I'm certain there are other very good MagDks on the forums that would have other suggestions.

That was the same comment I read, 'noob trap'. I can see where they're coming from and as a noob I was initially drawn to it so it's probably right.

Thank you for that recommendation, it's actually a great idea as I don't have any mythics yet.

FlipFl0p

Vevvev wrote: »

I still use BSW because it's just extra spell damage that can carry over to my back bar. MY build pretty much relies on set bonuses carrying over on bar swaps so the set is pretty good at doing that. Also as long as you don't score 2 burning procs in less than half a second it should be good.

Basically, don't make Burning Embers the first thing you hit an enemy with and you'll be fine. (Since that's two guaranteed burning status effects side by side if that's what you open with.)

I DO open with Burning Embers, why is that bad? Why wouldn't I want to do the two status effects on the open?

Vevvev

FlipFl0p wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

I still use BSW because it's just extra spell damage that can carry over to my back bar. MY build pretty much relies on set bonuses carrying over on bar swaps so the set is pretty good at doing that. Also as long as you don't score 2 burning procs in less than half a second it should be good.

Basically, don't make Burning Embers the first thing you hit an enemy with and you'll be fine. (Since that's two guaranteed burning status effects side by side if that's what you open with.)

I DO open with Burning Embers, why is that bad? Why wouldn't I want to do the two status effects on the open?

Combustion has an internal cooldown of 500 milliseconds (half a second). So if they both proc together one of the procs is wasted and instead of 2k magicka back it's only 1k. Light attacking with a flame glyph equipped will proc BSW before the Burning Embers cast hopefully spacing it out just enough for the full magicka back.

Edit: I found it was the flame glyph not the flame light attack procing BSW. (Another edit because I typed in SPC instead of BSW lol.)

Larcomar

BSW is a great set; I love it on my magdk. The burning proc is a bit odd though; there are a few posts on this going back and there's a bit of confusion around.

From testing it, what I think is the case is that the BSW burning status effect
- overwrites regular burning; you cannot apply both to the same target at the same time
- is guaranteed, longer (4 seconds?) and more powerful than normal burning;
- only applies to one target that you're engaging (the first one you hit with flame damage)
- does appear to proc combustion; it doesn't say "combustion," but there's an "unknown" in my mag regen list that I think is it

There is therefore a bit of duplication with charged but I think it's still well worth it for a magdk. The main reason is that, in most encounters, you'll be engaging multiple targets, and you really want to proc burning on them, not just the first guy/ mob you engage. The damage is great (it's often one of my highest damaging "abilities") and the regen is really good.

However, it's also worth noting that, when you're engaging a single target, I think the BSW burning proc only procs once per BSW cycle, lasts maybe 4 seconds (?) and (by itself) would only give you maybe a 1/3 uptime on burning. With a charged fb you can get 100% uptime on burning of some shape or form.

To be fair, though, if you're using a lot of flame damage you might get close to that even without charged - But then again the chance of getting burning is quite low without charged. Unless ofc you're hitting them regularly with burning embers for the heal, as that's a guaranteed burning anyway. That's where the redundancy with charged potentially is.

On builds, fairly obviously, you want to FB BSW. That's it's real forte. I run it with pariah. Either 5 pariah body and BSW shoulders N, R staff + Malacath. Or Pariah Helm, Chest, Pants N, R and BSW waist gloves boots staff. But I tend to play pretty casually on my magdk; in cyro at least, I just find my other classes do a little better.

Ps - I've tested this as best I can, but not certainly not "scientifically." If others have tested and gotten different results, do yell.
PS ps - on glyphs. As far as I can see, you're glyphs is almost always going to hit your first target so a flame glyph is a bit wasted if you're getting a gauranteed and superior burning off BSW. I'm experimenting with a shock enchant - with charged, that's giving me pretty good uptime on concussed / minor vulnerability as well as burning...

FlipFl0p

Larcomar wrote: »

BSW is a great set; I love it on my magdk. The burning proc is a bit odd though; there are a few posts on this going back and there's a bit of confusion around.

From testing it, what I think is the case is that the BSW burning status effect
- overwrites regular burning; you cannot apply both to the same target at the same time
- is guaranteed, longer (4 seconds?) and more powerful than normal burning;
- only applies to one target that you're engaging (the first one you hit with flame damage)
- does appear to proc combustion; it doesn't say "combustion," but there's an "unknown" in my mag regen list that I think is it

There is therefore a bit of duplication with charged but I think it's still well worth it for a magdk. The main reason is that, in most encounters, you'll be engaging multiple targets, and you really want to proc burning on them, not just the first guy/ mob you engage. The damage is great (it's often one of my highest damaging "abilities") and the regen is really good.

However, it's also worth noting that, when you're engaging a single target, I think the BSW burning proc only procs once per BSW cycle, lasts maybe 4 seconds (?) and (by itself) would only give you maybe a 1/3 uptime on burning. With a charged fb you can get 100% uptime on burning of some shape or form.

To be fair, though, if you're using a lot of flame damage you might get close to that even without charged - But then again the chance of getting burning is quite low without charged. Unless ofc you're hitting them regularly with burning embers for the heal, as that's a guaranteed burning anyway. That's where the redundancy with charged potentially is.

On builds, fairly obviously, you want to FB BSW. That's it's real forte. I run it with pariah. Either 5 pariah body and BSW shoulders N, R staff + Malacath. Or Pariah Helm, Chest, Pants N, R and BSW waist gloves boots staff. But I tend to play pretty casually on my magdk; in cyro at least, I just find my other classes do a little better.

Ps - I've tested this as best I can, but not certainly not "scientifically." If others have tested and gotten different results, do yell.
PS ps - on glyphs. As far as I can see, you're glyphs is almost always going to hit your first target so a flame glyph is a bit wasted if you're getting a gauranteed and superior burning off BSW. I'm experimenting with a shock enchant - with charged, that's giving me pretty good uptime on concussed / minor vulnerability as well as burning...

Thanks for such a thorough explanation! You're leagues head of me in your understanding of these builds, I appreciate the input.

Elrond87

how to deal with op templars, i tried blocking their damage with capped resistance and the burning light with jabs still melts me like i have no resistance, and if i go max damage their burst just out performs and they can heal my massive dmg with ease. i cant figure out a build to counter it. and just giving up with the dk

milllaurie

FlipFl0p wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

You could backbar Daedric Trickery. Also remember every time you inflict burning you get magicka so theres no applying too much burning on MagDK

What skill do you think I should use on the back bar to proc Daedric Trickery? Or would it just be a case of doing a light attack with a resto staff (or ice as recommended above)?

Taking direct damage while you have your armor buff active procs trickery no problem
That's why Trickery is the go-to backbar set on dks.

milllaurie

Elrond87 wrote: »

how to deal with op templars, i tried blocking their damage with capped resistance and the burning light with jabs still melts me like i have no resistance, and if i go max damage their burst just out performs and they can heal my massive dmg with ease. i cant figure out a build to counter it. and just giving up with the dk

Yeap, templars are really dangerous right now. Try following:
1. Major evasion. It reduces most of templar damage by 20% which is significant. Spectre's eye backbar or (recommended) 5 medium with elude. Elude will keep you mobile, medium will bump your spell damage.
2. Speed + cc. Ring of wild hunt + celerity cp or race against time + fossilize to make time and distance. Kite them. That + elude is very strong counter to templars.
3. Do not block jabs. Every jabs hit counts as direct damage so it drains your stamina very fast! Again - DO NOT BLOCK JABS!
4. Well, let's face it, it's rock-paper-scissors and templars are the best counters to magdks. They purge your pressure and their skills hit really hard because few run evasion. They also snare you and, as magdk is one of the least mobile classes, that screws you up.

Vevvev

milllaurie wrote: »

Elrond87 wrote: »

how to deal with op templars, i tried blocking their damage with capped resistance and the burning light with jabs still melts me like i have no resistance, and if i go max damage their burst just out performs and they can heal my massive dmg with ease. i cant figure out a build to counter it. and just giving up with the dk

Yeap, templars are really dangerous right now. Try following:
1. Major evasion. It reduces most of templar damage by 20% which is significant. Spectre's eye backbar or (recommended) 5 medium with elude. Elude will keep you mobile, medium will bump your spell damage.
2. Speed + cc. Ring of wild hunt + celerity cp or race against time + fossilize to make time and distance. Kite them. That + elude is very strong counter to templars.
3. Do not block jabs. Every jabs hit counts as direct damage so it drains your stamina very fast! Again - DO NOT BLOCK JABS!
4. Well, let's face it, it's rock-paper-scissors and templars are the best counters to magdks. They purge your pressure and their skills hit really hard because few run evasion. They also snare you and, as magdk is one of the least mobile classes, that screws you up.

You can block jabs, just don't go blocking several casts of it, and I never found snares that big of a deal on a magDK. Then again my magDK is always running Race Against Time (Used to be Mistform, but RIP that ability) and with one cast you're out of whatever snare is bugging you.

Biggest issue fighting Templars is definitely their purges for sure as it renders a magDK down to just a spammable, Leap, and maybe Fossilize when it's working. Best advice I can give is keep your heals over time running because they'll start trying to put you on the defensive and burst you down once they are confident you can't kill them. Once they're trying to kill you then you might have a chance. Bait them out of their healing ring, have an ultimate charged up and on hand, and be ready to 1-2 punch them down. Easier said than done though...