Suggestion Partially Intermingled PVP/PVE content

NagualV

...there is this new game out that allows you to flag up in the open world, it's pretty fun ....

cyberjanet

There was a game I played where PvE areas were invaded by PvP players. Especially starter PvE areas. I no longer play that game, could have been Aion, could have been something else. I don't care. Unfortunately human nature is such that the strong prey on the weak, and spoil the game experience so horribly that the new players never ever ever ever ever want to play it again. The mere fact that many PvP players delight in ganking just tells you what will happen. End of game, period.

AzuraFan

This would be the fastest way to kill the game LOL. Mass exodus of players who are primarily interested in PvE. The end.

Amottica

Rich Lambert, one of the original developers that is still with Zenimax and working on ESO said that even at the earliest creation stages of ESO they chose to let players explore the world without the distraction of PvP. It is why Cyrodiil was created for the PvP interests.

He said this was a strong-willed decision so I doubt they would consider any option that muddies the water in this area.

TequilaFire

NagualV wrote: »

...there is this new game out that allows you to flag up in the open world, it's pretty fun ....

Better enjoy walking!

NagualV

TequilaFire wrote: »

NagualV wrote: »

...there is this new game out that allows you to flag up in the open world, it's pretty fun ....

Better enjoy walking!

Love it actually.

everseeing_njpreub18_ESO

As a PVE player who dislikes PVP, as others said I would just skip those in a PVP area, there is enough for me to do in PVE zones. Any form of "forced" PVP (such as for a reward i actually want) is just a drudgery for me to slog through and be done.

My main reason is not PVP as a concept, I guess its the execution, I cant stand the repeated "pop from stealth, stun, hit hit dead" routine that seems to plague me in PVP, i suck at it, i have no interest in "getting gud", so i just leave it to hose who enjoy it.

If its your thing, great, but please don't try to mix them when its not needed.

Darrett

everseeing_njpreub18_ESO wrote: »

As a PVE player who dislikes PVP, as others said I would just skip those in a PVP area, there is enough for me to do in PVE zones. Any form of "forced" PVP (such as for a reward i actually want) is just a drudgery for me to slog through and be done.

My main reason is not PVP as a concept, I guess its the execution, I cant stand the repeated "pop from stealth, stun, hit hit dead" routine that seems to plague me in PVP, i suck at it, i have no interest in "getting gud", so i just leave it to hose who enjoy it.

If its your thing, great, but please don't try to mix them when its not needed.

You live for more than one ability activation in PvP? I’m impressed.

Kiralyn2000

NylAR wrote: »

I honestly never understood this kind of hate towards PvP.

Well, based on previous games I've played that try to mix the two:

1) it's really annoying when skills/abilities/equipment/mechanics/etc in your play mode, get slaughtered in the name of "balancing" the other. This seems to happen more often due to PvP (and the idea of PvP in MMOs ever being "balanced" is laughable).

2) in games where you can PvP in PvE zones, PvP tends to really interfere with said PvE - between zergs rampaging back and forth across quest areas, and people slaughtering NPCs that questers need to do their questing (either to grief people, or to "get the other faction PvPers to come defend their questers, get some Real PvP going!"), it's just really annoying.

3) those PvPers who embody all the worst stereotypes of the playstyle, really annoy the heck out of folks. Between griefing, being hostile in chat, and everything else, they really make people dislike the whole concept.
(I remember some of the Internet Tough Guys on the WoW PvP forums - "A lv90 squishing a lv10 is Real PvP, because there are two players involved!" "It was great, I camped the dude's corpse for an hour until he gave up a logged out! I hope he quits forever! Lulz!" etc)


And the worst part is that all of this is in defense of lousy, unbalanced MMO PvP - a side game frequently duct-taped to the side of majority-PvE MMOs. You'd think that all these Real Serious PvPers would want to play a dedicated PvP game, made and balanced from the ground up for decent & fair PvP.
(as long as you've got levels, and CP, and rare gear, and all that stuff - how can it possibly ever be a balanced experience based on skill? RPG PvP seems totally pointless.)

Vevvev

I remember when PvP buffs directly impacted PvE. It was when ESO's endgame revolved around PvP and it sadly was very flawed in it's implementation. Led to factions just dominating a single campaign and PvEers just entering for the buffs before leaving to do other things. Such systems, as much as it pains to admit it, have no place in this game.

Indigogo wrote: »

Please stop this insane myth that pvp players don't spend money and don't buy dlcs.

Everyone I know caved and bought Blackwood to access the new mythics.
That's how powerful the urge is for serious pvpers to get ahead, they'll buy a whole zone to wear one piece of gear.

And this is so true on so many levels. A lot of PvPers I know will grind and power through all the PvE content just to get ahead even if getting ahead is a fraction of a percentage better than what they had before. It's an arm's race in that game mode.

Narvuntien

The only thing I would like would be a competitive PVE that is based on the alliances.

It could be a dungeon or an arena or even asymmetric questing that would decide which alliance controls a zone/city etc.

AuraStorm43

They tried it with IC and its a pretty constant complaint that people get ganked whenever an IC event rolls around

Xebov

Kwoung wrote: »

My feeling on the matter is, that the PVE players in this game are so adamantly against PVP, they wouldn't do the quests. On the flip side, PVP players already have to engage in an inordinate amount of PVE in order to PVP in the first place. People like me, that do both, probably wouldn't mind, but don't see it being a big hit, just more posts complaining about PVP quests taking the slot of PVE quests on the forums.

The only thing PVP needs in this game to make it great again... is performance. Get rid of the lag, random disconnects, slow bug, freezing, macro slices, etc... and that's all it needs.

Performance is an issue for existing players.
A major issue for PvP is that it does not attract enought new players. PvP plays differently from PvE and players need some exposure to it to learn the basics and reach a certain level of of personal performance where it does feel good. The whole structure of the PvP rewards does not create enought incentive for players to stay through this time.
In BGs you spend alot of time waiting for the respawn. The daily reward requires you to at least be second, so if you are unlucky you cant get it done for hours. The end of BG rewards are also not great given how much AP you need to buy stuff and rank up. Here doubling the end of game rewards and removing the requirement of the daily could help make it feel more worth the time.
Cyrodiil has the problem that you need some knowledge where what happens and you might spend way to much time riding around instead of fighting. The knowledge also determines how much AP you get and like with BGs it often doesnt feel worth the time for newer players.

If you want to save PvP you not only have to look at the performance, you also have to be generous enought with rewards so newer players stay and suffer through the beginning because they get a feeling that its worth the time spend.

moo_2021

NagualV wrote: »

...there is this new game out that allows you to flag up in the open world, it's pretty fun ....

So were ESO Cyrodiil and IC in the beginning.

I'll jump after 2yr if it's still alive and fun.

Xebov

NagualV wrote: »

...there is this new game out that allows you to flag up in the open world, it's pretty fun ....

Well lets see.

I played WoW on a PvP Server where high level players camped quest hubs for low level players to constantly kill them and prevent them from questing.
I played EQ2 where players made level capped and maxed PvP specialized characters to invade the starting zones of the other side and run into AoEs of questing players to farm them. Or simply camped the city gates with higher level characters to farm off questers.
I played AION which had open PvP areas for questing where you ended up with the same scheme of dedicated PvP characters hunting questers.
I played SWG where you could go overt and be PvP ready and hardly any battle occured out of gatehring places because the world was to big.

Iam sure i forgot one or two games in the list. Overall PvP flags are a bad idea. They require enought players to be in an area to actually get PvP fights going, so having dedicated PvP zones where interested ppl gather is a better choice.
Also iam remembering parts of the PvP concept from the game you are talking about from other games where it didnt turn out well. Lets wait 2-3 months and see whats the status then.

moo_2021

myskyrim26 wrote: »

I played several MMOs. If a game has a PVE-PVP zone, such zone is just DEAD. In ESO I will never buy a chapter or DLC with mixed PVE-PVP content. I don't PVP. I hate the fact that I can't explore Cyrodiil and IC now because of PVP players.

They need to make players feel safe at certain areas, which is exactly the opposite now.

If there is a questing spot or crafting station or major roads, they could put invisibility suppressing light-posts and station tons of NPCs of the controlling alliance, that would prevent any enemy player to sneak past, and whenever such area or road section is under attack there could be some alert or mark on map, telling players to prepare for fight or escape if they wish. That way there is always a buffer between alliances and players wouldn't need to be worrying all the time even when they're alone.

Kiralyn2000

NagualV wrote: »

...there is this new game out that allows you to flag up in the open world, it's pretty fun ....

Ah, that explains the article I saw yesterday about how they had to add a "please be nice to each other" splash screen. Because, as it turns out, when you have open-world/faction-based PvP, along with cross-faction chat & local area voice chat, people are awful to each other.


Surprising, I know.

Xebov

moo_2021 wrote: »

They need to make players feel safe at certain areas, which is exactly the opposite now.

The problem is that PvE players are almost always on the short end of the stick. PvE players want to do Quests and progress which is naturally a very static environment. They have to try and get their goals done while defending themselves. PvP players on the other hand want to kill them and the static environment makes that insanely easy, especially in ESO where you can do alot with stealth ambushes.
When the monster sets in IC came out i killed a couple off the overworld roaming bosses together with a friend. I was the tank and on almost every boss i was attacked several times. It was always stealth gank attacks. I only survived because i was the tank and the bosses constant AoEs simply smashed them. Its the same with camping the front entrance of the base trying to farm off returning players.

NagualV

moo_2021 wrote: »

NagualV wrote: »

...there is this new game out that allows you to flag up in the open world, it's pretty fun ....

So were ESO Cyrodiil and IC in the beginning.

I'll jump after 2yr if it's still alive and fun.

Perfectly fine.

I personally am having a lot of fun NOW. I'm not the only one..........

Why stay somewhere where I'm not having fun? If you are having fun still, great!!!! If I'm given the choice between having fun NOW vs having fun later, I will choose now. Thats me. Simple.

NagualV

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

NagualV wrote: »

...there is this new game out that allows you to flag up in the open world, it's pretty fun ....

Ah, that explains the article I saw yesterday about how they had to add a "please be nice to each other" splash screen. Because, as it turns out, when you have open-world/faction-based PvP, along with cross-faction chat & local area voice chat, people are awful to each other.


Surprising, I know.

That's interesting....hasn't been my experience at all.

VaranisArano

I see you've marked off Step 2, so I'll take a crack at Step 1.

Who do you see doing Step 1 - these "War Effort" quests?

Is it PVPers, who now need to do a bunch of unrelated PVE quests in order to get a fleeting buff?

Or is it PVEers, who are going to do these quests for a PVP buff that most of them don't care about and will never use because they don't play in Cyrodiil?

I play both types of content. Personally, nothing about that idea sounds like it would entice me to use my limited time to play to do "war effort" quests.


If you want suggestions on the ideas, I'd keep something in mind. Most PVPers are in Cyrodiil for the PVP - the most PVE you can entice us to do is to kill one delve boss every hour for the 20% AP buff and then get right back to the PVP. Most people don't even do that. So if you try to add PVE objectives to PVP zones, keep in mind that it needs to be quick, relatively easy, and promote conflict between enemy factions in order to get PVPers to do it. Think more along the lines of Blessing of War with a quick task that takes you a little time and risk in order to get a short-term buff. And even then, remember that most PVPers will ignore it in favor of actually fighting other players at the main objectives. Fundamentally, most of us aren't in a PVP zone to do PVE.

Most PVEers have no interest in PVP unless there are special limited rewards there, like Event Tickets or Style Pages. (And even then, some of them complain bitterly about it.) So if you want to do "War Effort" daily quests, you might think about how to entice PVE players to do it for PVE reasons. And from the perspective of a PVE players who's getting pretty tired of grinding daily quests, you might think about whether we need another set of daily quests to grind and, if we do, how you intend to incentivize doing them as an ongoing thing that will influence a campaign most PVEers rarely, if ever, set foot in.

moo_2021

Xebov wrote: »

When the monster sets in IC came out i killed a couple off the overworld roaming bosses together with a friend. I was the tank and on almost every boss i was attacked several times. It was always stealth gank attacks. I only survived because i was the tank and the bosses constant AoEs simply smashed them. Its the same with camping the front entrance of the base trying to farm off returning players.

I do PvP but still dislike having no boundary. If there is some boundary and buffer that allow PvE players to prepare, which basically eliminate unexpected fights, they could be more willing to participate, especially if defenders are always aided, not only by DD NPCs but also healers and fast respawn near the location - which would be fair IMO that attackers always need to be more organized and numerous in order to capture some site.

Kiralyn2000

VaranisArano wrote: »

I see you've marked off Step 2, so I'll take a crack at Step 1.

Who do you see doing Step 1 - these "War Effort" quests?

Is it PVPers, who now need to do a bunch of unrelated PVE quests in order to get a fleeting buff?

Or is it PVEers, who are going to do these quests for a PVP buff that most of them don't care about and will never use because they don't play in Cyrodiil?

I wonder if it's supposed to appeal to some sort of "faction patriotism" on the part of the PvE'ers? (along with providing Yet More Dailies).

But, honestly, at least for me? With us being able to quest anywhere, and not participating in the whole PvP thing? I don't really have any 'faction' connection to my characters. Before 1T, I made a character of each faction, so I could experience all of the questlines & stories.
Characters I've made since then (with Any Race/Any Alliance) were just picked by what race I wanted to make a character of, and which faction home city had the more convenient amenities.

So, yeah. Not a lot of Faction Loyalty to appeal to here in PvE land. I have no idea what faction is "winning" in Cyro, and I don't care if it's "mine" ('mine' shifting constantly as I switch between alts). It's really not all that important. /shrug


(and for new players, who go through whatever that year's Chapter tutorial & then the Chapter zone - rather than the main quest & sequence of faction zones - there's likely even less attachment to whichever 'faction' they picked at character creation.)

BXR_Lonestar

I get the idea but they already have an area where PVE/PVP are intertwined and it is not the most popular area in the game. I don't know why people have this odd obsession for blending the two areas together, but Zos did try it - and they haven't done another area since, and I'm going to guess that its because there is no large outcry for similar areas in the world. PVP is just so much the antithesis of what PVE is, and I'm guessing the only people who want more PVE/PVP blended areas are PVPers who are mainly looking for easy kills, because there is nothing really engaging about trying to take down a boss, only to have a ganker take advantage of you being in a weakened state with low resources and killing you, and then finishing the boss you were trying to fight.

Hurbster

And if I ever play New World you can bet my toggle for pvp will be superglued in the 'off' position as I carry on crafting.

VaranisArano

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I see you've marked off Step 2, so I'll take a crack at Step 1.

Who do you see doing Step 1 - these "War Effort" quests?

Is it PVPers, who now need to do a bunch of unrelated PVE quests in order to get a fleeting buff?

Or is it PVEers, who are going to do these quests for a PVP buff that most of them don't care about and will never use because they don't play in Cyrodiil?

I wonder if it's supposed to appeal to some sort of "faction patriotism" on the part of the PvE'ers? (along with providing Yet More Dailies).

But, honestly, at least for me? With us being able to quest anywhere, and not participating in the whole PvP thing? I don't really have any 'faction' connection to my characters. Before 1T, I made a character of each faction, so I could experience all of the questlines & stories.
Characters I've made since then (with Any Race/Any Alliance) were just picked by what race I wanted to make a character of, and which faction home city had the more convenient amenities.

So, yeah. Not a lot of Faction Loyalty to appeal to here in PvE land. I have no idea what faction is "winning" in Cyro, and I don't care if it's "mine" ('mine' shifting constantly as I switch between alts). It's really not all that important. /shrug


(and for new players, who go through whatever that year's Chapter tutorial & then the Chapter zone - rather than the main quest & sequence of faction zones - there's likely even less attachment to whichever 'faction' they picked at character creation.)

For sure!

During the Summerset patch, I was recruiting for a Ebonheart Pact PVP guild. A fair number of new players who whispered me back had no idea what Alliance they were a part of. Like, "Open your character screen and tell me what animal you see by your name" type stuff. Of course, since they had started in Summerset and the only time they'd see their Alliance was the colors on the Character Selection screen, of course they had no idea!

Now, I like One Tamriel on the whole. But between it and the year long story lines, I'm pretty sure that faction loyalty in PVE is dead.

Now, throw in some sweet style pages or new motifs, and I'm sure that some PVEers will be happy to do yet more dailies...

Zorgon_The_Revenged

A thread from 2015, when PvP buffs became PvP only and no longer applied to your alliance in PvE.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/177393/pvp-buffs-active-in-pve-thoughts

Also, you don't have to be exclusively PvP or PvE, many players do play both. (although I personally prefer games that separate them and don't have some messy PvPvE environment)

Xebov

moo_2021 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

When the monster sets in IC came out i killed a couple off the overworld roaming bosses together with a friend. I was the tank and on almost every boss i was attacked several times. It was always stealth gank attacks. I only survived because i was the tank and the bosses constant AoEs simply smashed them. Its the same with camping the front entrance of the base trying to farm off returning players.

I do PvP but still dislike having no boundary. If there is some boundary and buffer that allow PvE players to prepare, which basically eliminate unexpected fights, they could be more willing to participate, especially if defenders are always aided, not only by DD NPCs but also healers and fast respawn near the location - which would be fair IMO that attackers always need to be more organized and numerous in order to capture some site.

In that case it still makes way more sense in having 2 seperated areas for the 2 activities than trying hard to somehow incoirporate them with each other. I dont know a single game that ever got it right.

Tandor

NylAR wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

My feeling on the matter is, that the PVE players in this game are so adamantly against PVP, they wouldn't do the quests. On the flip side, PVP players already have to engage in an inordinate amount of PVE in order to PVP in the first place. People like me, that do both, probably wouldn't mind, but don't see it being a big hit, just more posts complaining about PVP quests taking the slot of PVE quests on the forums.

The only thing PVP needs in this game to make it great again... is performance. Get rid of the lag, random disconnects, slow bug, freezing, macro slices, etc... and that's all it needs.

It's not just this game... It's about every MMO I've played. Players just have to accept it in most games, cause there usually is no choice - so they're not as vocal. But here the PvP and PvE modes are so separate everyone always tries to be vocal, cause " no no no, don't touch or affect my beautiful PvE gameplay ".

I honestly never understood this kind of hate towards PvP.

"Hate" is the wrong word. People who play the game solely for PvE simply have no interest in PvP, in some cases because they dislike it and in other cases because they simply have no interest in it. If PvP were ever imposed on PvE content many of them, perhaps most of them, would play a different game - just as some of those who only PvP are sufficiently unhappy with the state of PvP in ESO to be looking at another game.

We're all the same in that respect, if we're playing a game for particular content and that content is decent then we'll play the game, but if our preferred content is compromised whether by its interruption by a different content or simply through poor performance then we'll look elsewhere.

Performance is the key to improving PvP in this game, and to increasing the number of PvPers. There is no magic bullet that will suddenly turn PvEers into PvPers.

Tandor

NagualV wrote: »

...there is this new game out that allows you to flag up in the open world, it's pretty fun ....

And there are already complaints from PvPers that most people aren't turning on the PvP flag. Many are saying that if they don't get PvP-only servers they'll quit. The state of PvP in that game is far from settled or secure.