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Unpopular Discussion Point: Recon and new item drop change.

Jameson18
Jameson18
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Hi,

First, I will say, as a theorycrafter with a ton of characters: I absolutely adore the reconstruction via transmute crystals option that was added. The sticker book feature has been pretty amazing in that regard and it really helps out when you don't have tons of play time every day/week and you're trying to fiddle around with builds, gear new characters, or update builds after game updates. (Which seems to be ... every....update....)

However... If I take a minute and look at the situation without bias, I believe that having both the stickerbook/recon feature AND the new loot prioritization feature that's being implemented, I think there is a troubled road ahead.

I get it. The appeal is to make it easier to do builds. Make things more accessible for casuals and new players etc. etc. But.... When none of us need to go farm for that staff anymore, or anything for that matter... who's going to be there to fill dungeon queues for the new folks? Or the folks that need leads, motifs, achievements, etc.?

What I see approaching, at least for myself and few remaining crew that play is... the high likelihood of getting lazy and not bothering anymore.

If I have nothing left to farm or go get? How much content do you think I'm going to do? How much do you think I'll still play? I spend a good portion of my time now farming for something I need, a friend needs, or a guild mate needs. What will we be doing when that goes away?

The additional PvE content that's been released in the past 3 cycles at the very least has been very sub par. There's been no new PvP content. That's in complete disarray anyway. Even the existing PvE has become quite the gamble as to whether or not you're going to crash mid-pull or encounter. (Console).

If we're going to take away "grind" aspects, which I'm all for on most days btw, then we need something more to do or engage in. Yeah?


Just food for thought.
Edited by Jameson18 on September 29, 2021 5:31PM
  • jaws343
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    I expect we will get people in dungeons who actually want to run them and aren't stuck farming them for the hundredth time with zero care about performance in them.

    Even still, I looked at my stickerbook for completion and to get all of the gear I will be grinding most of the dungeons at least 20 times each to complete all the sets. There are likely dungeons that I haven't even run 20 times yet ever, so me running them 20 times to get the stickerbook complete is 20 times more than I probably would have ever run them.
  • Araneae6537
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    I run dungeons primarily for fun and for pledges. Very rarely have I run dungeons to farm gear that there wasn’t a very high probability of getting (monster helm of x weight, for instance).
  • Amottica
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    I think it is a great idea to structure the loot drops in a more logical manner. The current design where someone could do 100 or even 200 runs through vMA and still not get the weapon they choose is awful and the reconstruction system is completely useless there. The very same thing goes for players running a dungeon 100+ times to get the weapon they need. @jaws343 points out how useless the sticker book system is in these cases.

    What keeps players running the content is the crystals so they can use the reconstruction system and transmutation system vs dealing with the RNG.

    This change, accompanied by the sticker book system and especially the transformation system seems to be one of the better thought-out additions to the game.
  • EF321
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    Farming folk in your random queue is the worst kind groupmate you can get.


    Who will fill the dungeon? People farming purple jewelry because they don't want to spend 200k worth of materials on reconstruction, people getting dungeon skill points on yet another new character, people leveling undaunted on same new characters so they ideally want trifecta and play to the best of their ability so they get most ud points, people farming mask styles and motifs, people who got into the game fairly recently or only acquired DLC recently, people who want to complete specific achievement, people running dailies for transmutes, people doing pledges.
  • TequilaFire
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    Well you still have to do the content either PvP or PvE to get the stones to recon.
  • SerraKBella
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    Jameson18 wrote: »

    I get it. The appeal is to make it easier to do builds. Make things more accessible for casuals and new players etc. etc. But.... When none of us need to go farm for that staff anymore, or anything for that matter... who's going to be there to fill dungeon queues for the new folks? Or the folks that need leads, motifs, achievements, etc.?

    I think the dungeons that have leads, motifs, achievements, etc will still have a good amount of players looking for these same things, but I guess only time will tell if they become dead zones. It will be interesting to see. I for one, will gladly run dungeons for leads, motifs ect, whenever I need too, but I welcome the new RNG system to help me complete some of these items that I just can't seem to get no matter how many times I run a dungeon.
  • hcbigdogdoghc
    hcbigdogdoghc
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    F to the people wanting to farm KA or HOF in 1-2 years.
  • Jameson18
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    I think the dungeons that have leads, motifs, achievements, etc will still have a good amount of players looking for these same things, but I guess only time will tell if they become dead zones. It will be interesting to see. I for one, will gladly run dungeons for leads, motifs ect, whenever I need too, but I welcome the new RNG system to help me complete some of these items that I just can't seem to get no matter how many times I run a dungeon.

    Same for sure. I'm just wondering what the long term effects will be. There will definitely need to be a consistent feed of new/fresh players for the old zones to stay alive. Unless of course mythics require leads from them etc. but that's still not much.
  • Ippokrates
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    For transmutes. Weapons with desired trait, if they don't have or want to use transmutes. For keys for shoulders or motifs for sale if they already have all. For jewelry to decon. For achievements. For motifs. And finally, for fun or to test themselves.

    Every content sooner or later hit the end point. Sure, you can artificially extend this moment by adding RNG but probably, most people would quit if they would get 3 shields in a row, when they are looking for staff or dagger. I would not assume that population of people that would run vMA or vCA 50, 100, 150 times (hello Arx ^^), just to get desired weapon is as massive as casuals.

    Also, one of the greatest advantage of eso is its massive content. Not many other mmo or games in general have as many activities and zones as ESO. Even with new RNG you can spend few thousands hours to get stickerbook full.

    And finally - if you play this game only for weapons and fun from theorycrafting, you already can go to PTS. You have all sets, all gold, full stickerbook and lot of stuff.

    But somehow we do not see much people there, right? ;p
    Edited by Ippokrates on September 29, 2021 4:37PM
  • Jameson18
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    F to the people wanting to farm KA or HOF in 1-2 years.

    And there it is.

    We already end up with plenty of outdated content and rewards. Do we not think that in the long run these changes will accelerate the 'expiration dates' of old content?
  • Jameson18
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    Ippokrates wrote: »
    For transmutes. Weapons with desired trait, if they don't have or want to use transmutes. For keys for shoulders or motifs for sale if they already have all. For jewelry to decon. For achievements. For motifs. And finally, for fun or to test themselves.

    Every content sooner or later hit the end point. Sure, you can artificially extend this moment by adding RNG but probably, most people would quit if they would get 3 shields in a row, when they are looking for staff or dagger. I would not assume that population of people that would run vMA or vCA 50, 100, 150 times (hello Arx ^^), just to get desired weapon is as massive

    And finally - if you play this game only for weapons and fun from theorycrafting, you already go to PTS. You have all sets, all gold, full stickerbook and lot of stuff.

    But somehow we do not see much people there, right? ;p

    I'm not saying it doesn't need to change. I hate having to run something 100 times or more. I'm just looking at the other side of the coin here.
  • Amottica
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    Jameson18 wrote: »
    Ippokrates wrote: »
    For transmutes. Weapons with desired trait, if they don't have or want to use transmutes. For keys for shoulders or motifs for sale if they already have all. For jewelry to decon. For achievements. For motifs. And finally, for fun or to test themselves.

    Every content sooner or later hit the end point. Sure, you can artificially extend this moment by adding RNG but probably, most people would quit if they would get 3 shields in a row, when they are looking for staff or dagger. I would not assume that population of people that would run vMA or vCA 50, 100, 150 times (hello Arx ^^), just to get desired weapon is as massive

    And finally - if you play this game only for weapons and fun from theorycrafting, you already go to PTS. You have all sets, all gold, full stickerbook and lot of stuff.

    But somehow we do not see much people there, right? ;p

    I'm not saying it doesn't need to change. I hate having to run something 100 times or more. I'm just looking at the other side of the coin here.

    The other side of the coin is the very real possibility of having to run something 100 times or more and getting the same thing over and over again. People get tired of that grind and move on to other things and that is the other side of the coin.
  • Blood_again
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    I know that feel. I was bothered with the same thought when the Sticker Book feature was revealed. I even tried to collect the most wished sets asap "before trials become empty". That's how I imagined the future.

    Currently I have full collection from 3 trials. Not so much but enough to see the consequences.
    It's true that I'm less eager to run these trials each time I see an invite in zone chat. Really, I don't need a drop from there anymore. But, for the last two weeks...
    1. I ran each of these trials at least twice with my weaker characters to practice my skills. I'm a bit rusty in playing with wardens for example, so I ran it with wardens. Fixing my hands :)
    2. Over that I ran some of them with group of my guildmates, because it's fun to run somewhere with guild.
    3. Over that I ran one of trials twice with my friend because I can share him all the gear I got. It's a pleasure and a bit of pride that I can do it for him, you know.
    4. I ran another one twice because I was bored, saw an invitation and thought "Just why not?".

    So it was more than 10 runs in 2 weeks for trials where I need no gear. Paralleled with other usual activities like other trials, some pvp, pledges, writs, creating a new character etc.

    BTW each second or third run I saw people who acted like first-timers or said "first time here" in chat.

    That's why I believe that upcoming changes could raise QOL, but hardly ever kill the dungeons and trials community.
    I think there are other causes why people leave the trials. But it is out of topic.
  • zaria
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    You have an valid point and lots of the reason to do content is to get gear. However for wealthy players overland and PvP gear is easy to get anyway at least if you wait an week or two.
    I say reconstruction mostly help players with lots of alts and they tend to play a lot anyway.
    And obviously solves the problem with all the changes they do every 3 months and trying to keep gear who might be relevant.

    Now the opposite is also true, back before all this and the sharpened meta it was an joke that its crafted weapons and fantasy ones. To me farming vMA for an sharpened shock staff sounds borderland insane.

    Yes managed to get the SPC resto staff using over an million gold for keys to the treasure vault.
    Runs tend to drop bows, so many bows, never got any SPC jewelry outside the named quest reward,
    system is obviously rigged and this backfired as only the most fanatic players bothered.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • WhyMustItBe
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    Jameson18 wrote: »
    But.... When none of us need to go farm for that staff anymore, or anything for that matter... who's going to be there to fill dungeon queues for the new folks? Or the folks that need leads, motifs, achievements, etc..

    I honestly don't see the problem you imagine playing out. First, you still need to do the daily random for the transmute stones to actually USE those collected items. Most people don't do PVP. So there will always be a steady stream of veteran players running randoms for that alone.

    Couple that with people still doing undaunted dailies for keys, or to get monster helms, the bulk of new players who will not have all these things unlocked, or haven't become burned out and still actually run random dungeons because they enjoy doing it. Plus the constant influx of new players starting the whole process all over again.

    Years down the road if it ever did become a problem ZOS could just add some new reward along with the xmute stones for running randoms, like drops for style pages themed to that zone, or unique cosmetics/housing items etc., and the problem would be fairly easy to solve. IF it ever actually became a problem.


    Edited by WhyMustItBe on September 29, 2021 4:54PM
  • Amottica
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    zaria wrote: »
    You have an valid point and lots of the reason to do content is to get gear.

    And transmutaiton crystals.
  • Jameson18
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    ZOS could just add some new reward along with the xmute stones for running randoms, like drops for style pages themed to that zone, or unique cosmetics/housing items etc.

    That would be cool, imo.
  • Phaedryn
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    Jameson18 wrote: »

    However... If I take a minute and look at the situation without bias, I believe that having both the stickerbook/recon feature AND the new loot prioritization feature that's being implemented, I think there is a troubled road ahead.

    As soon as it was announced my first thought is...unintended consequences are going to bite everyone in the ass on this. I just have a bad feeling that we are trading short term convenience for long term game health.
    Edited by Phaedryn on September 29, 2021 5:03PM
  • Nestor
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    I have never hinged a build on some item that was farmed from a dungeon.

    Sure, if I had the pieces, then I would use them. But no build I used ever required them.

    One of the benefits of living at 98%
    Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.

    PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
    Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"

  • jaws343
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    Jameson18 wrote: »
    F to the people wanting to farm KA or HOF in 1-2 years.

    And there it is.

    We already end up with plenty of outdated content and rewards. Do we not think that in the long run these changes will accelerate the 'expiration dates' of old content?

    Or more likely, make farming runs easier for people later on. We currently have vet carry runs for titles and achievements, likely we will see dungeon and trial carries for gear completion. If you have a group of 11 who all have all the gear and a 12th who has none, they will be able to recieve all of the gear drops they need on top of the gear they will gain to fill in the blanks. It'll only take a few runs of the content to complete their collection. As opposed to now where it may take dozens of runs to get specific pieces across an entire raid group.
  • NettleCarrier
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    I'll say what I said to a similar Reddit post. After nearly 50 vMA runs for an inferno staff (only to do it again after perfected came out), 20 or so blackrose runs for dagger/axe when that was desired, and the countless hundreds of times I've spammed particular dungeons for a staff, dagger, or axe and 40+ runs spamming Cloudrest to try and get Siroria Daggers only to give up - all I can say is thank goodness! There was NOTHING "fun" about doing any of that. The completionist in me will still run dungeons a maximum of 52 times (assuming 1 guaranteed uncollected weapon per run - of course subjected to fluctuations with chest RNG). I think 40-52 runs of a single dungeon is enough to exhaust that content before it is considered a ruined gameplay loop. I've been playing nearly three years and still have not had time to complete most storylines due to spending all my time farming stuff I'll use for one patch until something else is hot.

    As for running less dungeons in general, I don't think that's going to happen. They are still probably going to keep making sweeping changes to sets and introducing new ones and with 18 characters I need a LOT of transmutes each patch just to keep even somewhat current with my gear. With the addition of the armory system I'll be reconstructing/farming even more gear just to fit multiple roles on one character.

    All in all, this new change brings item set completion from its current place as a mere impossibility to something that can feasibly be done with a few hundred hours of dungeon running. Even if I do manage to get it all done this game has plenty of other time-sinks that I'm not likely to get bored lol.
    GM of Gold Coast Corsairs - PCNA
  • everseeing_njpreub18_ESO
    If its anything like SWTOR, companions play a role in filling groups when the "farmers" go on to other things. If they can be implemented well enough, many times back in SWTOR 2 people with 2 companions would run the "dungeons". Not to say people "usually" aren't better/preferred but by adding the companions its certainly opening up that sort of situation.
  • NettleCarrier
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    If its anything like SWTOR, companions play a role in filling groups when the "farmers" go on to other things. If they can be implemented well enough, many times back in SWTOR 2 people with 2 companions would run the "dungeons". Not to say people "usually" aren't better/preferred but by adding the companions its certainly opening up that sort of situation.

    This would be a concern if companions could queue to get the daily random dungeon reward, however they cannot. There are few, if any, situations where a companion makes a dungeon solo-able that isn't already and for times where two players and two companions can complete a dungeon then the two players probably could have done so without the companions. If farming for an item in a dungeon they don't even really help because they cannot get drops of their own, making four players a vastly superior choice.
    GM of Gold Coast Corsairs - PCNA
  • newtinmpls
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    I've run Arx many times just because

    1-I happen to like this dungeon (fits with my personal backstory for one character)

    2-once I got the infamously hard Medusa staff, it was really fun to be able to gift the occasional one that dropped to someone else looking for it

    I continue to fun daily dungeons and occasional randoms

    3-I burn most of my transmutes on changing traits on the "named items" and that is always "full price", so I'm always in the market for more transmutes

    4-Because of the above, I don't reconstitute many items, so I am still looking for more divine pieces in Sanctuary, Spell Power Cure, Lamia and Worm Cult, along with any of the "named" Jewelry in those sets.
    Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
    Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
    Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
    Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.
    ***
    Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
    House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
    Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis
  • NettleCarrier
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    Aye, it's a real shame they stopped doing the named pieces after the Imperial City DLC.
    GM of Gold Coast Corsairs - PCNA
  • Dagoth_Rac
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    Aye, it's a real shame they stopped doing the named pieces after the Imperial City DLC.

    5oph9a.jpg
  • Xebov
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    I dont think it will be a problem. We currently have 46 dungeons and you need up to 45 runs each, ignoring random luck with weapons in chests and sets that dont have all weapons you would need 2070 dungeon runs to gather everything. Even if you have half of it already it will take months to complete. I dont think that everyone will do this, many players will likely still play like they are today.

    Besides that players will still do random daily dungeons for XP and crystals and pledges. For some DLC dungeons you already have issues with the queue today unless its part of the pledge. For some trials like MoL or HoF you already have issues too finding groups.
    The completionist in me will still run dungeons a maximum of 52 times (assuming 1 guaranteed uncollected weapon per run - of course subjected to fluctuations with chest RNG).

    The worst case maximum for dungeons is 45 (3x2 jewelry and 3x13 weapons) for some its less due to sets not having certain weapons. For TriaLs its 60 with 4 sets.

  • tomfant
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    I'm also not that pessimistic. There a many incentives that keep people doing dungeons even with maxed out stickerbook, including transmutes, pledges, style pages, or just for fun... I don't think the player base doing this will deteriorate significantly.

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