Frost DPS based set ideas.

ESO_Nightingale

This year we received Frostbite which is a fantastic set, it would be great to see even more of these types of sets that help our niche magic playstyles thrive. Back during the Flames of Ambition PTS, @ZOS_Liforce explained that they were "exploring" more frost and shock themed magicka sets in the future, I assume they just mean Frostbite, Hrothgar's Chill and Thundercaller, but I could be wrong. Today I wanted to throw out a bunch of frost based set ideas and my ideas behind them. Hopefully the set team can gain some inspiration from these ideas, and, if they were to implement them, balance them better than I could.

PLEASE NOTE THAT THE BALANCE OF THESE SETS IS LIKELY POOR, THE IDEAS THEMSELVES SHOULD BE THE MAIN FOCUS.

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MYTHIC ITEMS/ MONSTER SETS

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This set is at the top of the list because I personally enjoy this concept the most out of all of my designs. I like it because it's naturally synergistic with the frost DPS playstyle. It is even moreso with warden and the charged trait. This set as a mythic, or as a Monster Helmet (as shown below) would be highly desirable for frost damage dealers, since, like Frostbite it co-incides with our job of applying chilled/brittle, but this time, directly rewards us for actively applying chilled as much as possible, instead of just ensuring that our uptimes remain consistent. At the moment, the chilled status effect is a very minor portion of our DPS. So I thought that if the chilled status effect were to have a set based around increasing it's specific damage output, that that would be very interesting and would incentivise the use of the buffed charged trait (something i know ZOS wants to see more of), while giving us frost dps some more unique and powerful options to help us stand out from the crowd. It's status as a helmet means giving up a monster helmet slot as well. which could definitely serve as a measure to help balance this set, provided the example up to 350% bonus proves too powerful. This set idea would also serve to help frost dps based pvp builds to kill targets in PvP.

Example Mythic Lead Locations

These are example lead locations I did for fun. I figured that a snow elf crown was a really interesting mythic idea, especially since we had the unused Ancient Falmer Crown from skyrim. Though this would probably look a bit different in ESO.

This idea could likewise work for a new frost based monster helmet. An example given here is Nunatak. A boss from Imperial City which could likely recieve a future Monster Helmet.

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Forgive me if this set may seem a bit all over the place. the idea of it tries to meld together 2 specific set ideas. they will be listed here:

• Arms Of Relequen
• Galerion's Revenge

Essentially, the set builds up with some DoT Damage that stacks like relequen, until a final explosion similar to (but much weaker than) galerion's revenge consumes the stacks. I can't say if this is balanced with the given values, but it's a rough ball park estimate towards something that is possibly balanced. In terms of the name "Icejaw" it's really just a placeholder. Since literally any frost based monster helmet could have this effect no problem. But i figured a giant ice wraith boss called something like Icejaw would be cool.

One of the biggest problems right now is that we really lack a powerful and visually thematic frost damage monster set other than just Iceheart, which is split focused on shielding and damage. We really want something that works well for straight damage and applies great visuals. That is something highly desired in the frost damage dealer community.

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OTHER SETS

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This idea is a lore nod towards the 4th Sinus of Takubar. But, it's also a set focused towards helping frost based damage dealers in pvp to get a guarenteed crit to better utilise minor brittle and other crit based bonuses in PvP. It is also not strictly for frost based dps, because it's distinction as "Direct Frost Damage" also includes crushing shock, force pulse and maybe(?) the frost enchantment. Meaning that other Magicka Based builds looking to get a guarenteed crit on a powerful hitting ability are not left out either. But, like the other sets on here I cannot say that this is actually balanced with the existing values.

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This is the last set idea i wanted to propose today. Basically, it's another crit chance bonus set like mother's sorrow and medusa, but what it offers is a uniquely high critical chance bonus for frost based builds at the cost of the bonus block benefit from Ancient Knowledge. It's a kiss curse set for those who dislike the tanky nature of the ice staff, you trade that tanky benefit away in order to crit better. This set is incredibly niche for the frost dps playstyle just like the Crown of the Snow Prince idea, but I also don't think it would go unused. Frost Damage is now based around crit bonuses, and so being able to perform more crits with a frost staff equipped using this set would fit in nicely.

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Thanks for reading the set ideas today. I did my best to balance them, but I definitely understand if some seem a bit too strong, or even underpowered. I'm not able to do any more than theorise balance for these sets that don't exist, but I do hope that I was able to inspire Zenimax to at least consider some version of these ideas for the future. We're really in need of more sets, and specifically monster sets. since Iceheart is the only one we have and it's not fully for damage dealing like some other viable monster sets like Maw of the Infernal and Zaan.

Syrpynt

ZoS needs to make more sets have a negative side effect when making OP sets like the 1st two you posted.

Increase Frost damage 20% --> You take extra fire damage by 15%.

4 to 3 or a 4 to 4 ratio I find is the most balanced. Equivalent exchange, or only slightly advantageous.


I find that Leki's Focus is a great example of this pro-and-con 5th trait balancing. One could say it is unbalanced right now with a -5% aoe applied vs -20% aoe received--but aoe's aren't really a stam's full arsenal in majority of builds, so it's not as big of a deal as a single-target buffing set would be.

Anyway, I speak from experience since I created a Skyrim mod for elemental weapons and armors--the biggest problem is making sure the power isn't too much to keep the game entertaining enough without feeling like you /togglegodmode in cmd. lol

ESO_Nightingale

Syrpynt wrote: »

ZoS needs to make more sets have a negative side effect when making OP sets like the 1st two you posted.

Increase Frost damage 20% --> You take extra fire damage by 15%.

4 to 3 or a 4 to 4 ratio I find is the most balanced. Equivalent exchange, or only slightly advantageous.


I find that Leki's Focus is a great example of this pro-and-con 5th trait balancing. One could say it is unbalanced right now with a -5% aoe applied vs -20% aoe received--but aoe's aren't really a stam's full arsenal in majority of builds, so it's not as big of a deal as a single-target buffing set would be.

Anyway, I speak from experience since I created a Skyrim mod for elemental weapons and armors--the biggest problem is making sure the power isn't too much to keep the game entertaining enough without feeling like you /togglegodmode in cmd. lol

Most sets are not kiss curse. There are mythics that are. But there are also ones that are not. Such as the ring of the wild hunt and that new ring mythic from the deadlands. There doesn't seem to be any set rule to a mythic. I wouldn't be a fan of zos introducing a bunch of kiss curse elements to a ton of existing or new sets because it doesn't always feel good to use them. Sets like talfyg's treachery is an example of a failed kiss curse set.

Syrpynt

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

ZoS needs to make more sets have a negative side effect when making OP sets like the 1st two you posted.

Increase Frost damage 20% --> You take extra fire damage by 15%.

4 to 3 or a 4 to 4 ratio I find is the most balanced. Equivalent exchange, or only slightly advantageous.


I find that Leki's Focus is a great example of this pro-and-con 5th trait balancing. One could say it is unbalanced right now with a -5% aoe applied vs -20% aoe received--but aoe's aren't really a stam's full arsenal in majority of builds, so it's not as big of a deal as a single-target buffing set would be.

Anyway, I speak from experience since I created a Skyrim mod for elemental weapons and armors--the biggest problem is making sure the power isn't too much to keep the game entertaining enough without feeling like you /togglegodmode in cmd. lol

Most sets are not kiss curse. There are mythics that are. But there are also ones that are not. Such as the ring of the wild hunt and that new ring mythic from the deadlands. There doesn't seem to be any set rule to a mythic. I wouldn't be a fan of zos introducing a bunch of kiss curse elements to a ton of existing or new sets because it doesn't always feel good to use them. Sets like talfyg's treachery is an example of a failed kiss curse set.

I agree most aren't kiss-cursed, but I disagree that "bad feeling". Below are both good and bad examples of set balancing with kiss-curse and why. We need more examples of good kiss-curses. This makes players have a vilnerability. If being immortal or unstoppable is the only thing keeping someone from "feeling bad" when their set has a weakness, that's kinda sad and it's their personal problem. A set can be overpowered, but it's gonna need an equivalent or close negative to prevent people from [snip] in the forums about nerfing it. You know it's true, ZoS could save time ovehauling sets completely if they just have (non-proc) negative effects applied to the character's stats depending on a set's abilities. This way in PvP they can't just 1vX others because of a meta build they watched on youtube. Everyone needs a weakness, we aren't divines or CHIM-touched entities. So the sets shouldn't give us impossible traits from the start.

Unbalanced kiss curse:
* Talfygs Treachery (Spell damage boost is peanuts compared to the negatives)
* Vangaurds challenge (3/4 players can do more damage, so really the ratio should be 35% less dmg from 1 player, 20-25% increased damage from other players)
* True-Sworn Fury AND Titanborn sets (The bonuses to critical chance increases the healing for the players too, making them nearly impossible to kill in PVP. Self healing is nerfed BECAUSE of sets like these).
* Daedric Trickery (The buffs should be not RNG, but on a constant cycle so it's predictable when to apply certain abilities during each specific buff phase).
* Pelinal's Wrath (The oblivion damage per second is pretty vicious for a hybrid set. If anything, I'd rather see "everytime you take direct damage, you take an extra 1% of your max health as oblivion damage"). This way you're not just dying from killing enemies. The damage shield thing is kinda OP also, I'd rather see armor point buffing since damage shields are already OP since only oblivion damage bypasses it.
* Aetherial Ascension (This is quite dumb, the amount of negatives vs the armor bonus, it's only 11% less damage from the bonus armor points but everything else costs so much that it's make more sense to just make Fortified Brass.
* Dreamer's Mantle, Draugr's Heritage (The effect given is trash, and the knockdown doesn't work when you need it the most, like on bossfights).
* Flanking Strategist (It sounds good on paper, but goodluck actually hitting the enemy from "behind" more than 2 times in combat, mainly PvE, but in many cases PvP also)
* Mythic items when they first release (because ZoS making sales, duh)
* Dark Convergence

Balanced kiss curse:
* Leki's Focus (I'd argue it should be more -10% aoe dealt, -20% aoe taken)
* Moon Hunter (No enchantment, only poison slotted to use it)
* Iron Blood (reduced movement speed, but less damage taken)
* Any set that states "While in combat" to avoid proc'ing on first hit of a fight. Cheesing burst combat. Example: Stygian, Undaunted.
* Curse of Doylemish (Enemy must be afflicted before melee heavy attack can do the extra damage, giving enemies time to break free)
* Essence Thief ("Play this mini game and lower your overall dps chasing resource returns")
* Blood Moon (Need good weaving with light attacks to proc, and even then, the 50% faster attack speed doesn't put you below global cooldown so light attack spam during this proc is best for boosted light attack builds only).
* Martial Knowledge (Keep your stamina at dangerously low levels to increase damage done to enemies, at the risk of not being able to break free or dodge when you need it most)
* New Moon Acolyte and Red Eagle (The 5% is hardly noticeable).
* Warrior's Fury and Voidcaller
* Basically all Mythic Items after first patch following release.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Trixterion

The first set: thematically nice, our chilled does around 2k dps, so at 10% this will be 9k, but over the fight this will be flattened out. The second set basically saves 1 item slot.
The third set isn't gonna crit following ZOS logic, the consumption of stacks will make this set more aoe focused rather than single target.
The fourth one: I'd prefer stalgrim theme over oblivion, controlled damage burst is a nice try, but presumably we can miss up to 20% crit damage in case of Frostden, I cannot say for sure if crit damage is calculated before the hit connected or after we apply chilled with frost reach, because it happens simultaneously, however in terms of coding there will be difference what line was written first(in pve since we solely can achieve 99% uptime that is not a problem, but in pvp it is).
And the last one: probably the best idea, but I have concerns about the realization:
• in order to compete with other crit sets we should aim at 15% crit chance in total(after light armor passive is applied to at least 2 pieces) or 2847 of critical rating;
• my suggestion for crit rating would be fair and competitive with those sets that are on par with Mother's Sorrow, however the 2-piece should be replaced with spd/wpd for set to retain its universality.
P.S.
Thematically it would be better to have a set that would increase our damage via any means but it should require us to wear an ice staff and if it's benefits would be better, it should provide some fire vulnerability

ESO_Nightingale

Syrpynt wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

ZoS needs to make more sets have a negative side effect when making OP sets like the 1st two you posted.

Increase Frost damage 20% --> You take extra fire damage by 15%.

4 to 3 or a 4 to 4 ratio I find is the most balanced. Equivalent exchange, or only slightly advantageous.


I find that Leki's Focus is a great example of this pro-and-con 5th trait balancing. One could say it is unbalanced right now with a -5% aoe applied vs -20% aoe received--but aoe's aren't really a stam's full arsenal in majority of builds, so it's not as big of a deal as a single-target buffing set would be.

Anyway, I speak from experience since I created a Skyrim mod for elemental weapons and armors--the biggest problem is making sure the power isn't too much to keep the game entertaining enough without feeling like you /togglegodmode in cmd. lol

Most sets are not kiss curse. There are mythics that are. But there are also ones that are not. Such as the ring of the wild hunt and that new ring mythic from the deadlands. There doesn't seem to be any set rule to a mythic. I wouldn't be a fan of zos introducing a bunch of kiss curse elements to a ton of existing or new sets because it doesn't always feel good to use them. Sets like talfyg's treachery is an example of a failed kiss curse set.

I agree most aren't kiss-cursed, but I disagree that "bad feeling". Below are both good and bad examples of set balancing with kiss-curse and why. We need more examples of good kiss-curses. This makes players have a vilnerability. If being immortal or unstoppable is the only thing keeping someone from "feeling bad" when their set has a weakness, that's kinda sad and it's their personal problem. A set can be overpowered, but it's gonna need an equivalent or close negative to prevent people from [snip] in the forums about nerfing it. You know it's true, ZoS could save time ovehauling sets completely if they just have (non-proc) negative effects applied to the character's stats depending on a set's abilities. This way in PvP they can't just 1vX others because of a meta build they watched on youtube. Everyone needs a weakness, we aren't divines or CHIM-touched entities. So the sets shouldn't give us impossible traits from the start.

Unbalanced kiss curse:
* Talfygs Treachery (Spell damage boost is peanuts compared to the negatives)
* Vangaurds challenge (3/4 players can do more damage, so really the ratio should be 35% less dmg from 1 player, 20-25% increased damage from other players)
* True-Sworn Fury AND Titanborn sets (The bonuses to critical chance increases the healing for the players too, making them nearly impossible to kill in PVP. Self healing is nerfed BECAUSE of sets like these).
* Daedric Trickery (The buffs should be not RNG, but on a constant cycle so it's predictable when to apply certain abilities during each specific buff phase).
* Pelinal's Wrath (The oblivion damage per second is pretty vicious for a hybrid set. If anything, I'd rather see "everytime you take direct damage, you take an extra 1% of your max health as oblivion damage"). This way you're not just dying from killing enemies. The damage shield thing is kinda OP also, I'd rather see armor point buffing since damage shields are already OP since only oblivion damage bypasses it.
* Aetherial Ascension (This is quite dumb, the amount of negatives vs the armor bonus, it's only 11% less damage from the bonus armor points but everything else costs so much that it's make more sense to just make Fortified Brass.
* Dreamer's Mantle, Draugr's Heritage (The effect given is trash, and the knockdown doesn't work when you need it the most, like on bossfights).
* Flanking Strategist (It sounds good on paper, but goodluck actually hitting the enemy from "behind" more than 2 times in combat, mainly PvE, but in many cases PvP also)
* Mythic items when they first release (because ZoS making sales, duh)
* Dark Convergence

Balanced kiss curse:
* Leki's Focus (I'd argue it should be more -10% aoe dealt, -20% aoe taken)
* Moon Hunter (No enchantment, only poison slotted to use it)
* Iron Blood (reduced movement speed, but less damage taken)
* Any set that states "While in combat" to avoid proc'ing on first hit of a fight. Cheesing burst combat. Example: Stygian, Undaunted.
* Curse of Doylemish (Enemy must be afflicted before melee heavy attack can do the extra damage, giving enemies time to break free)
* Essence Thief ("Play this mini game and lower your overall dps chasing resource returns")
* Blood Moon (Need good weaving with light attacks to proc, and even then, the 50% faster attack speed doesn't put you below global cooldown so light attack spam during this proc is best for boosted light attack builds only).
* Martial Knowledge (Keep your stamina at dangerously low levels to increase damage done to enemies, at the risk of not being able to break free or dodge when you need it most)
* New Moon Acolyte and Red Eagle (The 5% is hardly noticeable).
* Warrior's Fury and Voidcaller
* Basically all Mythic Items after first patch following release.

I still don't agree. Having a ton of sets be kiss curse is an unnecessary nerf for no reason.

[edited to remove quote]

Vevvev

Syrpynt wrote: »

snip

Throw Vampire Lord into the unbalanced kiss curse list. The set offers nothing really new to a person's vampire stage as it continually makes the controversial debuffs worse while only making the small handful of vampire abilities cost less.

oterWitz

A few thoughts:

-I'm not sure how the servers would handle/groups would work with sets that require "your" chilled status effect. What if two people are providing chilled, would only the person who got there first get the benefit? With that line of thinking, it might be better/easier to reduce the power of the CotSP and Nunatak but make it apply for anyone attacking a chilled target, like: you chill, your group does some small amount more damage to the chilled target over the course of the fight. Thus the set gives a weak bloodthirsty effect on top of the brittle you'll naturally add, now that brittle is less useful. There's still the issue of 1 brittleden allowed per group, but I suppose DKs are like this as well.

-I like Icejaw a lot, as we discussed before having a more dps/glass cannon frost monster helm than Iceheart. I'd like to see it, and one that caters to shock builds, added to the game.

-For the 5 piece sets, more specifically Snowthroat Blizzard (since the other is more of a standard crit set + frost), I think it'd be easiest to make a new set of special weapons that have an interesting effect at the cost of removing the Ancient Knowledge passive. Off the top of my head I don't know what these would be, but I think it would be easier than putting this restriction on a five piece set, and opens the possibility for more ability altering weapons now that all of the active skills are covered. I'm not sure how doable it is, but destruction staves, 2h, and dw all have passives of this sort that depend on the particular type of weapon you have equipped, so a weapon set that removes the passive to give it a fresh take could be interesting.

Stx

Considering they want to make everything ***-- excuse me, hybrid, I think the only place to add niche sets like +frost damage or +shock damage straight up would be monster sets or mythics.

But I agree that we need more niche sets, fun sets, kiss curse sets, etc. Anything to create meaningful build choices.

ESO_Nightingale

oterWitz wrote: »

A few thoughts:

-I'm not sure how the servers would handle/groups would work with sets that require "your" chilled status effect. What if two people are providing chilled, would only the person who got there first get the benefit? With that line of thinking, it might be better/easier to reduce the power of the CotSP and Nunatak but make it apply for anyone attacking a chilled target, like: you chill, your group does some small amount more damage to the chilled target over the course of the fight. Thus the set gives a weak bloodthirsty effect on top of the brittle you'll naturally add, now that brittle is less useful. There's still the issue of 1 brittleden allowed per group, but I suppose DKs are like this as well.

-I like Icejaw a lot, as we discussed before having a more dps/glass cannon frost monster helm than Iceheart. I'd like to see it, and one that caters to shock builds, added to the game.

-For the 5 piece sets, more specifically Snowthroat Blizzard (since the other is more of a standard crit set + frost), I think it'd be easiest to make a new set of special weapons that have an interesting effect at the cost of removing the Ancient Knowledge passive. Off the top of my head I don't know what these would be, but I think it would be easier than putting this restriction on a five piece set, and opens the possibility for more ability altering weapons now that all of the active skills are covered. I'm not sure how doable it is, but destruction staves, 2h, and dw all have passives of this sort that depend on the particular type of weapon you have equipped, so a weapon set that removes the passive to give it a fresh take could be interesting.

It would likely work the same way thay DK's burning is more powerful than other class's burning status effects in theory it shouldn't be a problem.

In terms of Snowthroat Blizzard i get where you're coming from. I'd like them to design a set where you're rewarded more damage while using an ice staff at the cost of the ancient knowledge block cost. I think that'd be a great idea. The pure crit chance idea isn't completely necessary. But it's a take on mother's sorrow and medusa, but purely for frost dps.

We do desperately need a new and powerful frost dps monster helm.

ESO_Nightingale

Stx wrote: »

Considering they want to make everything ***-- excuse me, hybrid, I think the only place to add niche sets like +frost damage or +shock damage straight up would be monster sets or mythics.

But I agree that we need more niche sets, fun sets, kiss curse sets, etc. Anything to create meaningful build choices.

That's what I've tried to go ahead and make here. Hopefully it's the kind of thing you're looking for.

ESO_Nightingale

Trixterion wrote: »

The first set: thematically nice, our chilled does around 2k dps, so at 10% this will be 9k, but over the fight this will be flattened out. The second set basically saves 1 item slot.
The third set isn't gonna crit following ZOS logic, the consumption of stacks will make this set more aoe focused rather than single target.
The fourth one: I'd prefer stalgrim theme over oblivion, controlled damage burst is a nice try, but presumably we can miss up to 20% crit damage in case of Frostden, I cannot say for sure if crit damage is calculated before the hit connected or after we apply chilled with frost reach, because it happens simultaneously, however in terms of coding there will be difference what line was written first(in pve since we solely can achieve 99% uptime that is not a problem, but in pvp it is).
And the last one: probably the best idea, but I have concerns about the realization:
• in order to compete with other crit sets we should aim at 15% crit chance in total(after light armor passive is applied to at least 2 pieces) or 2847 of critical rating;
• my suggestion for crit rating would be fair and competitive with those sets that are on par with Mother's Sorrow, however the 2-piece should be replaced with spd/wpd for set to retain its universality.
P.S.
Thematically it would be better to have a set that would increase our damage via any means but it should require us to wear an ice staff and if it's benefits would be better, it should provide some fire vulnerability

yep, i think that i've hit a decent enough ballpark estimate for nuna/cotsp. it'll be pretty good at 50% and less i'd love to see this because it adds such a naturally synergistic execute to our playstyle and job without taking things overboard, it'd just make us more powerful while rewarding us for doing our job.

icejaw wouldn't crit, you're right. but if we follow the sucess of relequen, we can see that it doesn't necessarily need to crit to be sucessful. in terms of being a more AoE focused set, i'd say that it's probably a bit more of a split focus monster helmet. it's not as good as relequen in ST but it trades some of it's ST power for burst aoe which is fine i'd say. makes it more unique.

and your suggestion for Snowthroat Blizzard sounds fine. if it remains more powerful than MS/Medusa in terms of crit chance because of it's kiss curse nature, then i think that's fine. but i'm also heavily against more fire vulnerability. fire damage is already really prominent in this game, do we need more garbage sets like talfyg?

oterWitz

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

It would likely work the same way thay DK's burning is more powerful than other class's burning status effects in theory it shouldn't be a problem.

Okay, yeah if it can be done then I think it's a good idea. I've also thought about that versus the idea I described above and realize it's better for support-type sets to be flexible so different classes and roles can wear it (like Zens being mostly worn on DKs but possible for any dot build or a healer). So it would be great if there were better frost dps sets (as in the OP) that could be the go to for brittledens, while we still have the option to wear support sets instead.

The only other thing is that, as much as I like the Crown of the Snow Prince and think it would go well on a mythic, these items are also best when they can be worn by many different builds, especially when you consider how only a few are released at a time and as part of the devs effort to sell the most recent chapter or DLC. I don't think a spot in the newest mythic lineup could be reserved by something with so narrow a focus, or not for a few years at least. It's possible to rework the item into something that rewards status effect builds, which would be interesting in it's own right. Or just letting the item you've come up with be worked into a monster set like you did with Nunatak, though it feels more like a mythic-type bonus to me. Perhaps there is a way to make the idea of CotSP more accessible to different playstyles while still benefiting frost builds, I'll have to keep thinking about it.

ESO_Nightingale

oterWitz wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

It would likely work the same way thay DK's burning is more powerful than other class's burning status effects in theory it shouldn't be a problem.

Okay, yeah if it can be done then I think it's a good idea. I've also thought about that versus the idea I described above and realize it's better for support-type sets to be flexible so different classes and roles can wear it (like Zens being mostly worn on DKs but possible for any dot build or a healer). So it would be great if there were better frost dps sets (as in the OP) that could be the go to for brittledens, while we still have the option to wear support sets instead.

The only other thing is that, as much as I like the Crown of the Snow Prince and think it would go well on a mythic, these items are also best when they can be worn by many different builds, especially when you consider how only a few are released at a time and as part of the devs effort to sell the most recent chapter or DLC. I don't think a spot in the newest mythic lineup could be reserved by something with so narrow a focus, or not for a few years at least. It's possible to rework the item into something that rewards status effect builds, which would be interesting in it's own right. Or just letting the item you've come up with be worked into a monster set like you did with Nunatak, though it feels more like a mythic-type bonus to me. Perhaps there is a way to make the idea of CotSP more accessible to different playstyles while still benefiting frost builds, I'll have to keep thinking about it.

i see what you mean but you can see with a mythic like the shapeshifters chain that they are also for transformation builds as well which are pretty niche builds. it's similar with frost dps warden is the best frost dps, but it is not limited to that either. I don't think there's any kind of rule for how to make a mythic. but it doesn't matter, this can work fine as a monster helmet as well.

I'm not a fan of making chilled even more supportive than it already is, i think it's fine as is when you apply brittle already. i think we should gain a good damage focus around our supportive aspect of our build, boosting it moreso for us than our teammates, making it naturally synergistic.

ESO_Nightingale

EDIT: fixed a mistake in the Snowthroat Blizzard idea.

BXR_Lonestar

How about this? A frost set that has a 5th piece bonus that does the following:

5th piece: Upon entering combat, you are enveloped in an icy aura that surrounds you for 5 meters. Enemies that enter the aura have their movement and attack speed reduced by 50% and become brittle, making them take 5% more critical damage from all sources.

ESO_Nightingale

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

How about this? A frost set that has a 5th piece bonus that does the following:

5th piece: Upon entering combat, you are enveloped in an icy aura that surrounds you for 5 meters. Enemies that enter the aura have their movement and attack speed reduced by 50% and become brittle, making them take 5% more critical damage from all sources.

That set idea sounds pretty obnoxious in pvp. A 50% snare in melee range and gcd nerf is really badly unbalanced. Minor brittle is 10%. Not 5% and shouldn't really have any other sources than from chilled applying with a frost staff equipped.

Syrpynt

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

How about this? A frost set that has a 5th piece bonus that does the following:

5th piece: Upon entering combat, you are enveloped in an icy aura that surrounds you for 5 meters. Enemies that enter the aura have their movement and attack speed reduced by 50% and become brittle, making them take 5% more critical damage from all sources.

Feels like Frost Watcher without the blocking. This 5th trait would be fine if you had the first 3 traits as:
2: 1200 Health
3: 1000 Stamina
4: 1000 Magicka

Just thinking in terms of balance, since that snare effect is something that a tank-role would use to debuff enemies for the dps to do the bonus damage.

ESO_Nightingale

Syrpynt wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

How about this? A frost set that has a 5th piece bonus that does the following:

5th piece: Upon entering combat, you are enveloped in an icy aura that surrounds you for 5 meters. Enemies that enter the aura have their movement and attack speed reduced by 50% and become brittle, making them take 5% more critical damage from all sources.

Feels like Frost Watcher without the blocking. This 5th trait would be fine if you had the first 3 traits as:
2: 1200 Health
3: 1000 Stamina
4: 1000 Magicka

Just thinking in terms of balance, since that snare effect is something that a tank-role would use to debuff enemies for the dps to do the bonus damage.

the reduced attack speed effect and snare would be really awful to fight against in pvp. i really don't think this is balanced in the slightest. 50% reductions to both are way too large on top of free brittle that doesn't have to be worked for? how does this strike you as balanced?

Syrpynt

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

How about this? A frost set that has a 5th piece bonus that does the following:

5th piece: Upon entering combat, you are enveloped in an icy aura that surrounds you for 5 meters. Enemies that enter the aura have their movement and attack speed reduced by 50% and become brittle, making them take 5% more critical damage from all sources.

Feels like Frost Watcher without the blocking. This 5th trait would be fine if you had the first 3 traits as:
2: 1200 Health
3: 1000 Stamina
4: 1000 Magicka

Just thinking in terms of balance, since that snare effect is something that a tank-role would use to debuff enemies for the dps to do the bonus damage.

the reduced attack speed effect and snare would be really awful to fight against in pvp. i really don't think this is balanced in the slightest. 50% reductions to both are way too large on top of free brittle that doesn't have to be worked for? how does this strike you as balanced?

A tank character would die quickly wearing just this set and anything else.
So this effect would only persist as long as the wearer is alive in PvP.

ESO_Nightingale

Syrpynt wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

How about this? A frost set that has a 5th piece bonus that does the following:

5th piece: Upon entering combat, you are enveloped in an icy aura that surrounds you for 5 meters. Enemies that enter the aura have their movement and attack speed reduced by 50% and become brittle, making them take 5% more critical damage from all sources.

Feels like Frost Watcher without the blocking. This 5th trait would be fine if you had the first 3 traits as:
2: 1200 Health
3: 1000 Stamina
4: 1000 Magicka

Just thinking in terms of balance, since that snare effect is something that a tank-role would use to debuff enemies for the dps to do the bonus damage.

the reduced attack speed effect and snare would be really awful to fight against in pvp. i really don't think this is balanced in the slightest. 50% reductions to both are way too large on top of free brittle that doesn't have to be worked for? how does this strike you as balanced?

A tank character would die quickly wearing just this set and anything else.
So this effect would only persist as long as the wearer is alive in PvP.

free aoe brittle by itself is unbalanced, it completely bypasses the requirement to apply the effect that is in place in the first place to make frost dps viable. a free 50% snare in melee range means that people can't escape from you and/or your group and a 50% reduction to attack speed slows their damage. this set is wildly unbalanced for group supports in pvp because you don't need to work for any bonus it gives, it ignores rules and gives outrageous bonuses with no downside.

Syrpynt

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

How about this? A frost set that has a 5th piece bonus that does the following:

5th piece: Upon entering combat, you are enveloped in an icy aura that surrounds you for 5 meters. Enemies that enter the aura have their movement and attack speed reduced by 50% and become brittle, making them take 5% more critical damage from all sources.

Feels like Frost Watcher without the blocking. This 5th trait would be fine if you had the first 3 traits as:
2: 1200 Health
3: 1000 Stamina
4: 1000 Magicka

Just thinking in terms of balance, since that snare effect is something that a tank-role would use to debuff enemies for the dps to do the bonus damage.

the reduced attack speed effect and snare would be really awful to fight against in pvp. i really don't think this is balanced in the slightest. 50% reductions to both are way too large on top of free brittle that doesn't have to be worked for? how does this strike you as balanced?

A tank character would die quickly wearing just this set and anything else.
So this effect would only persist as long as the wearer is alive in PvP.

free aoe brittle by itself is unbalanced, it completely bypasses the requirement to apply the effect that is in place in the first place to make frost dps viable. a free 50% snare in melee range means that people can't escape from you and/or your group and a 50% reduction to attack speed slows their damage. this set is wildly unbalanced for group supports in pvp because you don't need to work for any bonus it gives, it ignores rules and gives outrageous bonuses with no downside.

1. Players have to be in melee range
2. Frost Watcher already has a chilled effect which stuns enemies in place, needs and average of 7 seconds to theoretically proc (15% chance).
3. Frost watcher is trash in PvP by itself since Harbinger and that Greymoor set were nerfed with Update 31.
4. Sure, then make the brittle only happen after a certain number of stacks are applied instead of guaranteed.

ESO_Nightingale

Syrpynt wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

How about this? A frost set that has a 5th piece bonus that does the following:

5th piece: Upon entering combat, you are enveloped in an icy aura that surrounds you for 5 meters. Enemies that enter the aura have their movement and attack speed reduced by 50% and become brittle, making them take 5% more critical damage from all sources.

Feels like Frost Watcher without the blocking. This 5th trait would be fine if you had the first 3 traits as:
2: 1200 Health
3: 1000 Stamina
4: 1000 Magicka

Just thinking in terms of balance, since that snare effect is something that a tank-role would use to debuff enemies for the dps to do the bonus damage.

the reduced attack speed effect and snare would be really awful to fight against in pvp. i really don't think this is balanced in the slightest. 50% reductions to both are way too large on top of free brittle that doesn't have to be worked for? how does this strike you as balanced?

A tank character would die quickly wearing just this set and anything else.
So this effect would only persist as long as the wearer is alive in PvP.

free aoe brittle by itself is unbalanced, it completely bypasses the requirement to apply the effect that is in place in the first place to make frost dps viable. a free 50% snare in melee range means that people can't escape from you and/or your group and a 50% reduction to attack speed slows their damage. this set is wildly unbalanced for group supports in pvp because you don't need to work for any bonus it gives, it ignores rules and gives outrageous bonuses with no downside.

1. Players have to be in melee range
2. Frost Watcher already has a chilled effect which stuns enemies in place, needs and average of 7 seconds to theoretically proc (15% chance).
3. Frost watcher is trash in PvP by itself since Harbinger and that Greymoor set were nerfed with Update 31.
4. Sure, then make the brittle only happen after a certain number of stacks are applied instead of guaranteed.

melee range is not that hard of a requirement, especially when we're talking about a snare, which will allow you to more easily trap said enemies in with you. you don't have a speed decrease on self or have to do anything out of the ordinary to halve their speed. frozen watcher isn't exactly easy to use in pvp since you need to BLOCK to maintain it and it doesn't do that much damage. this suggested set literally just requires you to be in combat and melee range. that is really easy. You don't have to do anything else. it'd be better to just drop brittle from the set since you'd already be taking frozen watcher's niche job anyway. i think this set would be more balanced if instead of reducing movement speed by 50%, it could do 30% instead and no longer apply brittle or the attack speed decrease. and instead it might be better to just do something else that is less intrusive to an enemy's fun.

Syrpynt

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

melee range is not that hard of a requirement, especially when we're talking about a snare, which will allow you to more easily trap said enemies in with you. you don't have a speed decrease on self or have to do anything out of the ordinary to halve their speed. frozen watcher isn't exactly easy to use in pvp since you need to BLOCK to maintain it and it doesn't do that much damage. this suggested set literally just requires you to be in combat and melee range. that is really easy. You don't have to do anything else. it'd be better to just drop brittle from the set since you'd already be taking frozen watcher's niche job anyway. i think this set would be more balanced if instead of reducing movement speed by 50%, it could do 30% instead and no longer apply brittle or the attack speed decrease. and instead it might be better to just do something else that is less intrusive.

So if you had to block to maintain that set bonus, you'd be fine with that?
Also, minor brittle doesn't stack with others, so it can have more than one source, you just wouldn't get benefit from Ice Staff.
Lastly, (and sarcastically) their suggestion still was nowhere close to as broken/OP as Dark Convergence, so I was just happy it wasn't that. lol

ESO_Nightingale

Syrpynt wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

melee range is not that hard of a requirement, especially when we're talking about a snare, which will allow you to more easily trap said enemies in with you. you don't have a speed decrease on self or have to do anything out of the ordinary to halve their speed. frozen watcher isn't exactly easy to use in pvp since you need to BLOCK to maintain it and it doesn't do that much damage. this suggested set literally just requires you to be in combat and melee range. that is really easy. You don't have to do anything else. it'd be better to just drop brittle from the set since you'd already be taking frozen watcher's niche job anyway. i think this set would be more balanced if instead of reducing movement speed by 50%, it could do 30% instead and no longer apply brittle or the attack speed decrease. and instead it might be better to just do something else that is less intrusive.

So if you had to block to maintain that set bonus, you'd be fine with that?
Also, minor brittle doesn't stack with others, so it can have more than one source, you just wouldn't get benefit from Ice Staff.
Lastly, (and sarcastically) their suggestion still was nowhere close to as broken/OP as Dark Convergence, so I was just happy it wasn't that. lol

If you had to block to activate this set, it would still be way too similar to frozen watcher. I feel like I'd need a decent enough redesign where that it basically wasn't recognisable as the same set it started as. It's just not balanced without making immediate sweeping changes to it. Dark Convergence is pretty busted. And so i wouldn't want any more annoying cc sets like it or this 50% snare field nightmare we were just discussing. Seperating minor brittle from chilled is a bad idea in general for the viability of frost dps. I don't think it should be done at all ever.

LeHarrt91

We really do need some more frost monster helms.
But the more I’ve been playing BrittleDen the more I realised some of the skills and passives need updating.

ESO_Nightingale

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

We really do need some more frost monster helms.
But the more I’ve been playing BrittleDen the more I realised some of the skills and passives need updating.

yep, tri focus really needs to ditch that mag block cost to a red cp with further cost reduction to make that kind of build viable. but having it on a destruction staff passive is truely poor design since no-one who plays dps takes that passive, and it also messes with people who want to gain the heavy attack bonuses of other staves, but don't want to cripple themselves with the block cost on ice.

oterWitz

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

We really do need some more frost monster helms.
But the more I’ve been playing BrittleDen the more I realised some of the skills and passives need updating.

yep, tri focus really needs to ditch that mag block cost to a red cp with further cost reduction to make that kind of build viable. but having it on a destruction staff passive is truely poor design since no-one who plays dps takes that passive, and it also messes with people who want to gain the heavy attack bonuses of other staves, but don't want to cripple themselves with the block cost on ice.

I use tri focus tbf--it's very helpful for resource management, especially solo, and I imagine it would be with Bahsei's as well. While I'd prefer a channel style like lightning I don't mind it at all, and I'd rather they didn't move it to a CP that I'd have to dump 50 points in to keep. If they were to change it, which I wouldn't be opposed to in favor of a better dps option, perhaps it would come with a system that allowed people to choose their block resource regardless of weapon, which would be helpful for stam toons.

ESO_Nightingale

oterWitz wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

We really do need some more frost monster helms.
But the more I’ve been playing BrittleDen the more I realised some of the skills and passives need updating.

yep, tri focus really needs to ditch that mag block cost to a red cp with further cost reduction to make that kind of build viable. but having it on a destruction staff passive is truely poor design since no-one who plays dps takes that passive, and it also messes with people who want to gain the heavy attack bonuses of other staves, but don't want to cripple themselves with the block cost on ice.

I use tri focus tbf--it's very helpful for resource management, especially solo, and I imagine it would be with Bahsei's as well. While I'd prefer a channel style like lightning I don't mind it at all, and I'd rather they didn't move it to a CP that I'd have to dump 50 points in to keep. If they were to change it, which I wouldn't be opposed to in favor of a better dps option, perhaps it would come with a system that allowed people to choose their block resource regardless of weapon, which would be helpful for stam toons.

that's where i think CP would come into play, if there was a red cp that allowed you to have a mag block cost regardless of weapon and then it further reduced cost as you put points into it would straight up improve the mag blocking playstyle and allow dps to take the passive instead of gimping themselves. it shouldn't remain on tri focus. it's the only passive in the game that actively hurts more builds than it helps.

Whiskey_JG

Honestly, I genuinely feel that frost builds should be given more love.

These last few patches we have seen incremental changes to frost builds that slowly make it ever so viable. Currently Brittledens not only are viable but also produce decent amount of dps with the change in Frost reach. However, we are still seeing raid groups prefer to put brittle duty on the OT (ofc a lower uptime but still not bad). By creating a frost specific mythic, it would Brittledens a lot more effective and relevant in terms of a raid role.

DK provides Zen debuff, Necro provides Ele catalyst (along with colossus) and Warden would provide minor brittle.
Also in conjunction to this I would say that most ultimates need a reform. One form should always be to provide buffs to your group.

Also out of the options raised above, I think the Mythic item would be the most appropriate even in terms of lore.

BXR_Lonestar

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

How about this? A frost set that has a 5th piece bonus that does the following:

5th piece: Upon entering combat, you are enveloped in an icy aura that surrounds you for 5 meters. Enemies that enter the aura have their movement and attack speed reduced by 50% and become brittle, making them take 5% more critical damage from all sources.

That set idea sounds pretty obnoxious in pvp. A 50% snare in melee range and gcd nerf is really badly unbalanced. Minor brittle is 10%. Not 5% and shouldn't really have any other sources than from chilled applying with a frost staff equipped.

Thought minor was 5% and the major brittle was 10? Either way, it would only be obnoxious if you fought within melee range. Part of that process would be knowing what people to fight and what people not to fight. We already do that in PVP with other builds. For instance, I don't engage high HP (likely heavily armored) targets with my bow ganker without my ultimate up because I know I can't kill them. With a set like this, you just need to know that they have it and to engage them at range.