Misrepresenting to get a faster que.

depravity_influence

This may be very karenish and snow-flaky but I would like to hear ya'lls opinion on this matter, though I'm sure its all been said before. There has been an ongoing plague while doing dungeons that is very troubling to some players. The act of misrepresenting a class to get a faster que. Its mainly in pugs and I know you take the risk of it every time you decide to pug a dungeon and I've accepted that and I really don't mind as long as you can "hold you own". The majority of us can identify the player is not the class they qued as by the first boss. Sure we can vote to kick that player but that won't stop them from doing it again.

So would this rule from the ESO Codes of Conduct 2.7 You will not intentionally mislead, trick, con, swindle, deceive, hustle, grift or attempt to defraud another user, guest or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and services. Confidence schemes, trade scams, impersonations or other actions which involve tricking people using false or bogus information in an attempt to misrepresent intent or in an effort to defraud others for personal gain is strictly forbidden be used to report a player.

I am aware that this has been happening for a long time now and will continue to happen until players are punished for this action. Now most of yall will say that this is an mmo meant to be played with friends or that players should join a guild and play with guildies but I dont think we should have to do that. I love solo play in this game, I feel it forces you to learn your class and skills and I'm not knocking guilds or those that are in them. We all need to learn from somewhere.

So please give some input into the issue and maybe, maybe the devs will read this and try to correct the issue from our suggestions (but with all the other changes I'm not holding my breath). Investigation into a reported player takes times but if the penalty such as losing the option to do dungeons and trails for a day is enforced then I feel that more and more players would be inclined to report other players who lie just to get a faster que.

Artim_X

How about when someone is vote kicked, you'll be able to use pre-made tags to describe why they were kicked (toxicity, wrong role, inactive, etc.).

If someone has been kicked too many times (ex: 3×), they are given a temporary ban of like a day from using the finder. They are sent the tags used to justify the kick and are given the opportunity to defend themselves in order to remove the ban faster. ZOS can use eso logs/chat history to determine if a taunt was used during the run, if the player just followed others while looting instead of fighting, if a heal was used, if they were verbally abusive, etc.

If a player was found to be abusing the kick feature for whatever reason, they can also be subject to a temporary dungeon finder ban.

Skinfaxe_DK

I definitely hope that the trend of fake-queueing can be remedied somehow. Not only is it disrespectful and selfish but also often "justified" with ignorant arguments like "Tank is not needed for normal..." etc. which neatly ignores the the implied presupposition that the rest of the group is viable and can (and will) make up for the potential gaps and mechanics. I personally don't mind a player slotting a few tank skills (taunt, chain etc.) and then queue as tank (implied that the player will play the tank role sufficiently) though I consider that the minimum (and it is a low bar indeed). Anything else is simply not acceptable when grouping with random (fellow) players.
A solution could be to provide a 2nd queue option which didn't require the standard group composition of Tank, Healer and 2*Damage dealers. That would allow for selfish players to queue with like-minded players while allowing other players to continue to queue for group content and group play.

hafgood

Except a 2nd queue wouldn't benefit anyone. If everyone knows the second queue is going to pop faster than the 1st queue which queue do you think everyone will be in?

And sadly those in the 1st queue will find it harder and harder to get a dungeon run because the majority will be in the second queue.

Skinfaxe_DK

I'm not sure I understand - isn't the reason for fake-queueing that the queue pops faster (almost instantly)? Sure, it might go slightly faster with no roles, but that doesn't mean that the other (normal) queue will loose all players.
I believe the issue is that some "want it over with" and thus fake-queue (usually at the expense of other group members) while others actually do find enjoyment in contributing to the group and experience (including the players who do choose to meet the minimum I described above).
I do agree that it shouldn't be necessary with separate queues as; when you "sign on" to participate in a small group activity involving co-operative group play (to a varying degree depending on the group and specific dungeon of course), you respect and engage in that content on that basis. I presented with the option to basically omit most commitment and "co-player" or social involvement I'm not sure it's a given that the majority will prefer the option.
Another solution could be an option to queue as casual (normal) and experienced (skip, pull and fake-queue as you like).

moleculardrugs

If you tank, you need to be able to block damage well, apply breaches to the enemy, and also pull mobs.

How they do it I don’t care.

I just have these 3 criteria I look for when tank and I do these 3 mainly when I tank as well.

Ishtarknows

depravity_influence wrote: »

This may be very karenish and snow-flaky but I would like to hear ya'lls opinion on this matter, though I'm sure its all been said before. There has been an ongoing plague while doing dungeons that is very troubling to some players. The act of misrepresenting a class to get a faster que. Its mainly in pugs and I know you take the risk of it every time you decide to pug a dungeon and I've accepted that and I really don't mind as long as you can "hold you own". The majority of us can identify the player is not the class they qued as by the first boss. Sure we can vote to kick that player but that won't stop them from doing it again.

So would this rule from the ESO Codes of Conduct 2.7 You will not intentionally mislead, trick, con, swindle, deceive, hustle, grift or attempt to defraud another user, guest or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and services. Confidence schemes, trade scams, impersonations or other actions which involve tricking people using false or bogus information in an attempt to misrepresent intent or in an effort to defraud others for personal gain is strictly forbidden be used to report a player.

I am aware that this has been happening for a long time now and will continue to happen until players are punished for this action. Now most of yall will say that this is an mmo meant to be played with friends or that players should join a guild and play with guildies but I dont think we should have to do that. I love solo play in this game, I feel it forces you to learn your class and skills and I'm not knocking guilds or those that are in them. We all need to learn from somewhere.

So please give some input into the issue and maybe, maybe the devs will read this and try to correct the issue from our suggestions (but with all the other changes I'm not holding my breath). Investigation into a reported player takes times but if the penalty such as losing the option to do dungeons and trails for a day is enforced then I feel that more and more players would be inclined to report other players who lie just to get a faster que.

Interesting.

So queuing as a damage dealer but not using damage skills would also be against the rules. Good

Joy_Division

The issue with this is that sometimes the "fake" group member are actually better (or at least facilitate the run) than the "real" ones.

The game is full of honest people who are inexperienced or just not as skilled; they are the ones who would get punished in any scheme trying to prevent "fake" people in groups.

MudcrabAttack

Joy_Division wrote: »

The issue with this is that sometimes the "fake" group member are actually better (or at least facilitate the run) than the "real" ones.

The game is full of honest people who are inexperienced or just not as skilled; they are the ones who would get punished in any scheme trying to prevent "fake" people in groups.

I was surprised in the vet Cauldron a few days ago,halfway through the fake tank said “is this not normal? Oops I’m sorry.” They died a couple times, but there weren’t any wipes. There were no debuffs on anything but they did slightly under 1/2 the damage so it actually wasn’t a bad experience. I did it again yesterday with a real tank and there were plenty of wipes

Elsonso

.

Joy_Division wrote: »

The game is full of honest people who are inexperienced or just not as skilled; they are the ones who would get punished in any scheme trying to prevent "fake" people in groups.

That is what concerns me about threads like these. They always seem to head in the direction of punishment. I am not one who thinks this is the answer to the problem.

Nogawd

Skinfaxe_DK wrote: »

Not only is it disrespectful and selfish but also often "justified" with ignorant arguments like "Tank is not needed for normal..." etc..

They say it because it's true.

People solo normals, even vets.

4 dd's would get through the normal faster than a traditional group.

2 good dd's would get through a normal faster than a traditional group.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

temerley

Nogawd wrote: »

Skinfaxe_DK wrote: »

Not only is it disrespectful and selfish but also often "justified" with ignorant arguments like "Tank is not needed for normal..." etc..

They say it because it's true.

People solo normals, even vets.

4 dd's would get through the normal faster than a traditional group.

2 good dd's would get through a normal faster than a traditional group.

[snip]

Same thing can be said with fake roles: They are being [snip] and instead of actually doing their job by taunting and holding off the boss, they kite like scrubs spoiling the experience of low level players and casuals.

[edited for profanity bypass & to remove quote]

Skinfaxe_DK

Nogawd wrote: »

Skinfaxe_DK wrote: »

Not only is it disrespectful and selfish but also often "justified" with ignorant arguments like "Tank is not needed for normal..." etc..

They say it because it's true.

People solo normals, even vets.

4 dd's would get through the normal faster than a traditional group.

2 good dd's would get through a normal faster than a traditional group.

[snip]

"True" is of no relevance in this context as it is used to justify a selfish perspective in a group activity. Just because some players can solo certain content and therefore really don't need any support from the group, doesn't justify or validate that fact to the rest of the group as they didn't sign on to "tag along", and the presupposition is disrespectful and lacks simple decency when participating in a group activity with other players.

[edited to remove quote]

Syrpynt

My solution for this would be useful in any content of the game:

When you select your "role" in the group menu, your character gets buffs and debuffs according to their roles:

• Tank: +10% buff potency, +10% healing received potency, -10% damage potency.
• Healer: +10% healing done potency, +10% buff potency, -10% damage potency.
• Dps: +10% damage potency, -10% healing done potency,

This keeps people from faking roles, and could be applied similar to how "Battlespirit" is applied in status FX.

The 10% values can be increased to further gap the roles, and increasing dependency on the others. Of course, group content would need a rebalance also--but nothing too difficult for the ZoS team.

But you know, people who dislike this idea are probably the fakers. \o/

Elsonso

Syrpynt wrote: »

My solution for this would be useful in any content of the game:

When you select your "role" in the group menu, your character gets buffs and debuffs according to their roles:

• Tank: +10% buff potency, +10% healing received potency, -10% damage potency.
• Healer: +10% healing done potency, +10% buff potency, -10% damage potency.
• Dps: +10% damage potency, -10% healing done potency,

This keeps people from faking roles, and could be applied similar to how "Battlespirit" is applied in status FX.

The 10% values can be increased to further gap the roles, and increasing dependency on the others. Of course, group content would need a rebalance also--but nothing too difficult for the ZoS team.

But you know, people who dislike this idea are probably the fakers. \o/

Actually... I dislike this idea, and I am not a tank. Not even a fake one.

1. What is the incentive to tank and heal? Just to be better at it?
2. DPS is king in this game. People will see the +10% damage buff and queue as DPS. They won't even see the rest.
3. I have seen cases where players need to cross roles to avoid a wipe and this will penalize that.

Syrpynt

Elsonso wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

My solution for this would be useful in any content of the game:

When you select your "role" in the group menu, your character gets buffs and debuffs according to their roles:

• Tank: +10% buff potency, +10% healing received potency, -10% damage potency.
• Healer: +10% healing done potency, +10% buff potency, -10% damage potency.
• Dps: +10% damage potency, -10% healing done potency,

This keeps people from faking roles, and could be applied similar to how "Battlespirit" is applied in status FX.

The 10% values can be increased to further gap the roles, and increasing dependency on the others. Of course, group content would need a rebalance also--but nothing too difficult for the ZoS team.

But you know, people who dislike this idea are probably the fakers. \o/

Actually... I dislike this idea, and I am not a tank. Not even a fake one.

1. What is the incentive to tank and heal? Just to be better at it?
2. DPS is king in this game. People will see the +10% damage buff and queue as DPS. They won't even see the rest.
3. I have seen cases where players need to cross roles to avoid a wipe and this will penalize that.

I have 1 healer, and 3 tanks--and it doesn't incentivize people to queue as just dps, because dps wait times would just be longer for them if they are tank or healer and queue as dps. Trust me, I tank or heal specifically because my queue times are shorter and just hope that I get strong dps to make the longer dungeons go faster (unless people have quest, then I have patience).

1. No need to have incentive to tank and heal beyond the existing sets. I literally have one of my tanks as a Magblade Tank/Healer hybrid that can handle vet DLC content, I speak from experience, we don't need this passive I proposed to make my character "viable". The point of this is to incentivize people to NOT queue as tank or healer to just "get their crystals and be done with it." There are more fake tanks and healers than fake dps. You know what I call fake dps? "Players still learning the game" or "casuals." And there's nothing wrong with that.

2. A tank doing 5k dps or even 13k dps will only get 1.3k dps boost tops. Who cares? The game mechanics certainly won't allow that to break anything as much as burning down bosses on dps as is.

3. Cross roles to avoid wipe: So at least 1 or 2 players were so bad at their primary roles in that particular dungeon that they had to do something different than intended dungeon delve group formation? That sounds like a niche and personal situation, and the rest of us shouldn't suffer fake tanks and fake healers just to cater to those few who came into a dungeon unprepared. EDIT: I hate to sound rude, but it's tough love. One can't just "will" themselves to beat a Vet DLC dungeon with sub-optimal gear for their role, or at least not enough "correct" skills needed to complete their roles. 4 dps self-healing and dodging the boss' heavy attacks because no one has enough damage mitigation is a personal/team issue--partly because people are faking support roles! haha

Elsonso

Syrpynt wrote: »

I have 1 healer, and 3 tanks--and it doesn't incentivize people to queue as just dps, because dps wait times would just be longer for them if they are tank or healer and queue as dps. Trust me, I tank or heal specifically because my queue times are shorter and just hope that I get strong dps to make the longer dungeons go faster (unless people have quest, then I have patience).

You have a healer and three tanks. You are, literally, not the problem.

As near as I can tell from observation... The reason that there are fake tanks is because queue times are too long and people lack patience, or time, to sit around. If they queue up as a rare participant, they get right in. This is similar to the reason some PUGs turn into speed runs. There really isn't an effective form of punishment, or mix of reward and punishment, that can fix that situation.

Syrpynt wrote: »

1. The point of this is to incentivize people to NOT queue as tank or healer to just "get their crystals and be done with it."

This only works when a DPS debuff becomes significant, which is just adding more punishment. I am sure that a few people would shy away and pull out the crosses and garlic, just because it "hurts DPS". Others may just suck it up and take it so they can get the dungeon done quickly, or simply stop doing PUG dungeons. In the long run, situation does not get better.

However, the point of my objection was to point out that there is no added incentive to become a tank or healer other than to just "be better".

Syrpynt wrote: »

2. A tank doing 5k dps or even 13k dps will only get 1.3k dps boost tops. Who cares? The game mechanics certainly won't allow that to break anything as much as burning down bosses on dps as is.

The player can join the Tank Brigade, and since the damage is already pitifully low, they won't mind if it gets nerfed more? Alternately, they can just pull out the DPS that we know they have, and do the same dungeon with a DPS buff. Sure, they might have to wait a little longer, but when they get in, it will be quality buffed DPS fun.

There is no quantitative way to say that a buff to healing or buff potency makes up for the nerf to damage. Taking the DPS role, with a DPS character, is the simple answer for anyone who is not a "career" healer or tank.

Syrpynt wrote: »

3. Cross roles to avoid wipe: So at least 1 or 2 players were so bad at their primary roles in that particular dungeon that they had to do something different than intended dungeon delve group formation? That sounds like a niche and personal situation, and the rest of us shouldn't suffer fake tanks and fake healers just to cater to those few who came into a dungeon unprepared. EDIT: I hate to sound rude, but it's tough love. One can't just "will" themselves to beat a Vet DLC dungeon with sub-optimal gear for their role, or at least not enough "correct" skills needed to complete their roles. 4 dps self-healing and dodging the boss' heavy attacks because no one has enough damage mitigation is a personal/team issue--partly because people are faking support roles! haha

Tough love is what creates toxic environments in games like this. Sometimes people don't know the mechanics. Sometimes they are at their level of maximum incompetence and simply cannot do better than they are. Sometimes they just aren't yet ready for the challenge. These are PUGs, not organized groups. You take the hand you are dealt, or take your marbles and find another group.

The bottom line as far as I am concerned is that any "fake tank mitigation" that does not encourage players to try tanking, or try healing, so that they can FAIL and get better, isn't really a good idea. It is worse if it manages to punish people for trying and failing, so that they go away and stop trying.

Syrpynt

Elsonso wrote: »

...As near as I can tell from observation... The reason that there are fake tanks is because queue times are too long and people lack patience, or time, to sit around. If they queue up as a rare participant, they get right in. This is similar to the reason some PUGs turn into speed runs. There really isn't an effective form of punishment, or mix of reward and punishment, that can fix that situation...

Yes, that is the reason. But cutting in line and lying about what they will be doing for the group is a waste of time if you get pulled into a DLC dungeon and the fake tank then DROPS GROUP right at the start, making dps and healer wait for another RARE role, or drop the whole group and requeue. This pisses off the DPS more than anything, because their queue times are longer! Just because I have tanks doesn't mean I don't like to queue as dps occasionally. So this observational comment is not a supporting argument as to why we shouldn't punish people faking roles.

Elsonso wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

1. The point of this is to incentivize people to NOT queue as tank or healer to just "get their crystals and be done with it."

This only works when a DPS debuff becomes significant, which is just adding more punishment. I am sure that a few people would shy away and pull out the crosses and garlic, just because it "hurts DPS". Others may just suck it up and take it so they can get the dungeon done quickly, or simply stop doing PUG dungeons. In the long run, situation does not get better.

However, the point of my objection was to point out that there is no added incentive to become a tank or healer other than to just "be better".

"hurts dps"--the game should be balanced for a standardized PUG formation. No one is forcing people to group in those roles if they want to hop into a dungeon with 3 of their guildies or friends and try different stuff and practice, as you say--But while in a PUG, you respect PUG rules: Don't fake your role, or there (should) be consequences. That's a big assumption that people will stop doing dungeons if they have to actually DO what they told the DF and their group what they would do... Not a good argument beyond speculation. At least I was trying to come up with a balanced solution that shouldn't hurt anyone but the fakers. People want to run 4 dps healer hybrids? Sure, but don't use DF unless you have a full team!

Elsonso wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

2. A tank doing 5k dps or even 13k dps will only get 1.3k dps boost tops. Who cares? The game mechanics certainly won't allow that to break anything as much as burning down bosses on dps as is.

The player can join the Tank Brigade, and since the damage is already pitifully low, they won't mind if it gets nerfed more? Alternately, they can just pull out the DPS that we know they have, and do the same dungeon with a DPS buff. Sure, they might have to wait a little longer, but when they get in, it will be quality buffed DPS fun.

There is no quantitative way to say that a buff to healing or buff potency makes up for the nerf to damage. Taking the DPS role, with a DPS character, is the simple answer for anyone who is not a "career" healer or tank.

Then why are you using dungeon finder if you can form a tank brigade, for crystals? Dungeon finder with daily rewards is to promote the standard PUG formation style groups, and to play in a group that plays with a standard formation. Again, this is somewhat exploitative, and you can do it--but you shouldn't mind the penalties for your niche scenario so that the rest of PUG players suffer fake roles just so someone can bypass roles and still get crystals or "practice".

There is a quantitative way to make up for it: You add it to your effects just like Battlespirit does in PvP. The effect there mitigates healing and damage shields effectively. Boosts can be done in the same manner. That is a denial statement with evidence stacked against it.

Elsonso wrote: »

Tough love is what creates toxic environments in games like this. Sometimes people don't know the mechanics. Sometimes they are at their level of maximum incompetence and simply cannot do better than they are. Sometimes they just aren't yet ready for the challenge. These are PUGs, not organized groups. You take the hand you are dealt, or take your marbles and find another group.

The bottom line as far as I am concerned is that any "fake tank mitigation" that does not encourage players to try tanking, or try healing, so that they can FAIL and get better, isn't really a good idea. It is worse if it manages to punish people for trying and failing, so that they go away and stop trying.

Tough love is not toxic, it's telling others to learn how to be courteous to your other groupmates since it's a team effort, and knowing is half the battle (thank's GI Joe). Toxic is like how I was when I FIRST started ESO in 2016 and joined as a "tank" with sword and shield but didn't equip puncture and told the other teammates "that's not how I play" and got kicked for it. I deserved it because I was being a punk. THAT is toxic behavior.

If you're faking roles in a PUG, it's wasting others' time if you can't properly equip a 1H&shield or Restoration Staff or wearing heavy armor focused on damage mitigation before joining dungeon finder. Yeah, tanking isn't fun when you start out, but eventually when you get practice in, you can deviate and have some fun. Practice in the overworld, group with strangers at a wayshrine and offer to be a healer or tank--you're bound to find someone who'd love to have some support while burning down mobs for a +10% bonus in experience. As a tank, I even ask if people know mechanics right at the start of complex dungeons to make sure the newbies learn first try and why. THIS is tough love, steadfast to the rules but showing care to those who don't know why it's that way.

Your arguments are not logical enough, so please directly answer these questions with clear examples for the large majority of players running Dungeon Finder PUGs, please:
And how would a tank fail as a tank, worse than now if they have a healing received buff and bonus to their executed buff abilities?
How would a healer fail their role worse than now if they had healing given bonus and boost to their executed buff abilities?
How would a dps fail their role worse than now if they had damage given bonus?


Thanks~

Elsonso

Syrpynt wrote: »

Tough love is not toxic

Yeah, it pretty much is. Sorry.

nesmewno

90% of the vet dungeons go into the tank + 3DD
Half of the vet dungeons close are solo
It's funny to see scream pugs when there is no heal in the normal version

Shepoffire

Get three friends and decide what roles. Using the finder is like a grab bag. It’s a game at the end of the day don’t let it ruin your life

Syrpynt

Elsonso wrote: »

Yeah, it pretty much is. Sorry.

Syrpynt wrote: »

...tough love, steadfast to the rules but showing care to those who don't know why it's that way...

Please explain:
1. How teaching mechanics and how to do roles, and expecting people to perform those mechanics in a group environment is toxic?
2. How my proposed buff and debuff for each role would hurt those roles in a standard PUG environment (that aren't faking)?

Arbiter7070

If it's normal or vet non-dlc, does it really matter? I would prefer 3-4 DD's in those instances so I can get in and get out as fast as possible.

KhajiitLivesMatter

Arbiter7070 wrote: »

If it's normal or vet non-dlc, does it really matter? I would prefer 3-4 DD's in those instances so I can get in and get out as fast as possible.

some people have to much time and prefer to waste it by 1. running a dungoen slower 2. complaining about everyone who doenst wanna be slow

KhajiitLivesMatter

Syrpynt wrote: »

Yes, that is the reason. But cutting in line and lying about what they will be doing for the group is a waste of time if you get pulled into a DLC dungeon and the fake tank then DROPS GROUP right at the start, making dps and healer wait for another RARE role, or drop the whole group and requeue. This pisses off the DPS more than anything, because their queue times are longer! Just because I have tanks doesn't mean I don't like to queue as dps occasionally. So this observational comment is not a supporting argument as to why we shouldn't punish people faking roles.

yea but me for example - i would do that regardless of if i am fake tanking / healing / playing as normal dd - and simply because i expect ALWAYS if i queue with randos that i have to do everything (sure there are some good randoms but most of the time they are not and by just running dungoens i can easily solo clear i safed lots of time) and if its a dlc dungoen i dont expect the randoms to be better than all the time = even if i could clear the dungoen i ll still leave cause the trouble is just not worth the effort

Syrpynt wrote: »

"hurts dps"--the game should be balanced for a standardized PUG formation. No one is forcing people to group in those roles if they want to hop into a dungeon with 3 of their guildies or friends and try different stuff and practice, as you say--But while in a PUG, you respect PUG rules: Don't fake your role, or there (should) be consequences. That's a big assumption that people will stop doing dungeons if they have to actually DO what they told the DF and their group what they would do... Not a good argument beyond speculation. At least I was trying to come up with a balanced solution that shouldn't hurt anyone but the fakers. People want to run 4 dps healer hybrids? Sure, but don't use DF unless you have a full team!

eso ALWAYS uses the term "play how you want" if i wanna play a tank without spot and medium gear why should that be forbidden but dds with heavy armor and sword and board not ? (btw for real i saw once a serious tank build without spot xD)

Syrpynt wrote: »

players suffer fake roles

obviously not cause many complain that the dungoen is completet to fat by evil speedrunner fake queue tanks -
faster = better for everyone

Syrpynt wrote: »

If you're faking roles in a PUG, it's wasting others' time

wrong again 3 dds obviously can clear dungoens faster than 2 (speaking of non dlc dungoens)
3>2 you know ?

newtinmpls

I don't enjoy liars...yesterday I was doing a non-vet run through ICP, and the tank wanted to know if it was okay to "not really tank". Both the DPS's said they were fine, I said I'd like you to have a taunt and a pull, and other than that I'm not gonna care.

Tank was low health, clearly not with actual tank toughness, kept running ahead and what a shock, got too far from the healer, and died. Several times.

Got to the island fight, clearly no taunt as boss was all over the "island" major PITA for the healer, and of course at least one death.

It took a LOT longer because we kept having to rez each other. Without a proper tank, unless you have spectacular DPS (and most people are not quite as good as they think they are) it takes longer, and the healer gets blamed.

Really annoying.

Syrpynt

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

yea but me for example - i would do that regardless of if i am fake tanking / healing / playing as normal dd - and simply because i expect ALWAYS if i queue with randos that i have to do everything (sure there are some good randoms but most of the time they are not and by just running dungoens i can easily solo clear i safed lots of time) and if its a dlc dungoen i dont expect the randoms to be better than all the time = even if i could clear the dungoen i ll still leave cause the trouble is just not worth the effort

If you're doing a non-dlc normal dungeon (and some vet non-dlc dungeons) like this, fine.
But you also admit that you drop group on random normal dlc dungeons? You're literally why dps have to wait ages for another healer or tank, or the group fails and all that time is wasted. You only prove my point further. We need a buff and debuff for every role to make sure people learn how to do their roles for mechanics. Random normals are where people are starting out and your rushing doesn't teach new players anything, you're just there for your own wants/needs and don't care who gets neglected along the way. THIS is toxic behavior.

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

eso ALWAYS uses the term "play how you want" if i wanna play a tank without spot and medium gear why should that be forbidden but dds with heavy armor and sword and board not ? (btw for real i saw once a serious tank build without spot xD)

Yes, play how you want, but you can't hinder other's experiences because of how you play, it's rude. If you want to play like that, get guildies or friends to run with you on 4 dps. Don't rush noobies doing quests and not explain how mechanics work. That does nothing for anyone, as previously mentioned.

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

wrong again 3 dds obviously can clear dungoens faster than 2 (speaking of non dlc dungoens)
3>2 you know ?

Until DLC and non-DLC dungeons are distinguished in Dungeon Finder queues, you're wasting people's time when you drop group. It may not be everytime, but you don't seem the apologetic type for it either. Further iterating who is perpetuating toxic behavior and shenanigans.

KhajiitLivesMatter

Syrpynt wrote: »

If you're doing a non-dlc normal dungeon (and some vet non-dlc dungeons) like this, fine.
But you also admit that you drop group on random normal dlc dungeons? You're literally why dps have to wait ages for another healer or tank, or the group fails and all that time is wasted. You only prove my point further. We need a buff and debuff for every role to make sure people learn how to do their roles for mechanics. Random normals are where people are starting out and your rushing doesn't teach new players anything, you're just there for your own wants/needs and don't care who gets neglected along the way. THIS is toxic behavior.

didnt u read ? i said i even do that if i play dps (and flagged as dps) it doesnt matter and i guess the people who are doing it now will continue it even if they are flagged correctly
a while ago i cared more about randoms and beiginners - it was in alikr i met a dude grinding all the way from the start to lvl 350 - i talked to him explained the whole class (did play nb like my main) crafted him gear and helped farming some for him anyways a few days later we ended up running vDsa, i was on a healer, we had a good expierenced tank, and the dude and another of his friends on the same skill lvl - i explained them every small mechanic - and after 5 tanks and 13h they gave up quit the game and blamed me for it - and what did i get from that time

litterly nothing i wasted it cause i was kind to a random - why should i continue to waste my time by doing dlc dungoens normal or vet doesnt matter basicly alone not getting anything from it like it should be for a carry and maybe even getting blamed by randoms cause i dont wanna explain every mechanic of e.g. nWgt

and the few times i still did dlc dungoens like 1 time i farmed wgt withrandoms they are NORMALY increadibly annyoing - i did farm a specific item - 5 randoms got it - i asked them if i could buy it for 100k - 3 didnt awnser / 1 said no cause they need it for collection but dont wanna play it / 1 said no cause i have a addon which shows me their loot - like rly how am i supoust to know if they normaly not even write in chat....

Syrpynt

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

...vDsa, i was on a healer, we had a good expierenced tank, and the dude and another of his friends on the same skill lvl - i explained them every small mechanic - and after 5 tanks and 13h they gave up quit the game and blamed me for it - and what did i get from that time

litterly nothing i wasted it cause i was kind to a random - why should i continue to waste my time by doing dlc dungoens normal or vet doesnt matter basicly alone not getting anything from it like it should be for a carry and maybe even getting blamed by randoms cause i dont wanna explain every mechanic of e.g. nWgt

Everyone gets blamed occasionally, and sometimes they are right. Sometimes they're not and you have to let it go. But it sounds like you let one experience make you bitter and vengeful. Either way, doesn't justify rushing a group activity to suit just YOUR needs. If you want to be selfish, solo the dungeon yourself.

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

and the few times i still did dlc dungoens like 1 time i farmed wgt withrandoms they are NORMALY increadibly annyoing - i did farm a specific item - 5 randoms got it - i asked them if i could buy it for 100k - 3 didnt awnser / 1 said no cause they need it for collection but dont wanna play it / 1 said no cause i have a addon which shows me their loot - like rly how am i supoust to know if they normaly not even write in chat....

Welcome to the grind. People are there for loot also, if you happen to need something someone else needs, it sucks but you move on and keep grinding. I spend weeks grinding the same place until someone is willing to trade. Just how it goes, and it doesn't justify being bitter about it.

And tbh, I wouldn't want to trade with someone who asks at the VERY end, that rushed me the entire way... But ya know, that's for you to figure out.

Back on point: Better balance and making players do the roles that they set, would work--and I thought about it more: There should be an "other" role-option for players to select in group menu, but you can only use dungeon finder with it, if you are already pregrouped. This way no one gets a buff/debuff. Dungeon finder without a full 4-player group would still default to the 2 dps, 1 heal, 1tank.

Also, good news for you--next update, everyone gets ported to the boss spawn room when fight starts.

Nogawd

Syrpynt wrote: »

You're literally why dps have to wait ages for another healer or tank, or the group fails and all that time is wasted. You only prove my point further.

On ANY of my 11 characters I would still move forward and clear the dungeon.

As the group is.

With a companion.

Slide myself over to "tank" and let another dps come in...to make it easier.

Hit up a guild asking for any dps to join.

Those who would wait are just...seriously?

Syrpynt

Nogawd wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

You're literally why dps have to wait ages for another healer or tank, or the group fails and all that time is wasted. You only prove my point further.

On ANY of my 11 characters I would still move forward and clear the dungeon.

As the group is.

With a companion.

Slide myself over to "tank" and let another dps come in...to make it easier.

Hit up a guild asking for any dps to join.

Those who would wait are just...seriously?

You ever play dungeons at 12am-3am PST? I mean, if the group can we move forward. But on vMHK? Nah bruh, goodluck with that. I've been farming DLC dungeons lately. Waiting for a tank or dropping group are my only options since me (like many others you're ignoring) aren't very social or active in our guilds.
EDIT: Actually I've swapped to my tank characters if I wait more than 10 minutes. But I hate when I can't even play a full dungeon through as my dps (it's rare I get to play a dungeon on my dps because I can't wait an our for a queue to pop). Tanks drop because "this dungeon is too long" literally as soon as players spawn at the start.

I work 2 jobs and can play from 9pm to 12am weeknights, and I also am building up my own design and fabrication business when I have time, I don't have as much time to be as social as I used to when I basically breathed this game for 4 years straight. People have different lives, and I know I'm not the only one. Let's not guildless/friendless shame people.