Rushing in early dungeons

Ryuvain

This ever gonna be looked at or acknowledged? Several groups today I couldn't even do quest due to others rushing past everything including bosses. Not killing anything. Running straight to last if possible. Other times the boss is dead before I get there since you have to talk/wait on npcs. That means you have to restart the entire dungeon even if they get kicked. Can't imagine how horrid this is for new players.

Has any devs ever brought this up at all?

Kel

There is nothing a dev can do to control players rushing ahead....
Any ideas to propose?

Fennwitty

Kel wrote: »

There is nothing a dev can do to control players rushing ahead....
Any ideas to propose?

They rush because they're grinding transmute crystals with multiple characters per day.

Rushing through random normals is faraway the best method to obtain transmute crystals.

Thus, the devs could make other options or reduce the payout on this one (I'd prefer other options).

Michaelkeir

There are a few solutions to this issue and chief among them is form your own group with like minded individuals. If you use group finder you are exposing yourself to the randomness of it and of those who use it. I hate it to, but there are solutions in game to stop it and I’m sure the devs know this hence why I don’t see them intervening on the matter.

Ryuvain

Michaelkeir wrote: »

There are a few solutions to this issue and chief among them is form your own group with like minded individuals. If you use group finder you are exposing yourself to the randomness of it and of those who use it. I hate it to, but there are solutions in game to stop it and I’m sure the devs know this hence why I don’t see them intervening on the matter.

This doesnt make sense at all. New players have to find a group because they cant even finish quests in a dungeon normally? This happened SEVERAL times. I'm not new, but playing a new alt and see this all the time.

Feel like i have to apologize to them for others dumb behavior.

SeaGtGruff

One solution the devs could come up with is to add doorways between areas of the dungeon that won't open until each area has been cleared. Some dungeons already have a few of those, although AFAIK they aren't dependent upon clearing all of the bosses, just specific ones. I'm sure that would be an extremely unpopular solution, and I wouldn't want to see it happen, but I mention it to say that, yes, there are things that the devs can do to fix the problem.

Jim_Pipp

Not sure how common this problem is, but I've had a few instances of getting a low-level random dungeon, and then the lowest-level character (often healer) disconnects, the remaining high level character (often fake-tank) rushes the dungeon.

This is on PC EU, and it's easy to have a second account running through a smartphone. It seems plausible that high level players are grouping their main account with a level 10 alt account, and as a group queing to trigger an easy dungeon, then closing their low-level account.

... personally, I benefit from them doing this, but it potentially ruins new players experience of early dungeons. More importantly, I believe ZOS could easily monitor grouping and disconnecting, so there are potential solutions to this exploitative kind of rushing.

(p.s. today I ran a random dungeon to earn my "Kill 4 tough baddies" endeavor - but in fungal grotto we only got 3 bosses through rushing after the fake-tank, and the replacement healer didn't even catch up before the dungeon was over - I understand that rushing is probably annoying for lots of reasons and lots of folks).

Nanfoodle

Ya in this area the community is unforgiving and they have no clue how they are killing off gaining new players to the game. As this drives them away. Sadly the only recourse you have, is join a newbe guild with lost of player or yell in zone chat in a zone that has the undaunted quest, asking for like minded people. Love this game but sometimes the community sucks.

Nanfoodle

P.S. if you level up your companions, they can fill the role of healer or tank on normal dungeon runs

perfiction

Ryuvain wrote: »

This ever gonna be looked at or acknowledged?

Ofc it was looked at, in next update if people rush ahead of you and start fighting the boss you will automatically teleport to them. ZOS helps low lvl players to keep up during random normal dungeons :

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/586882/pts-patch-notes-v7-2-0 wrote:

You will now utilize “Joining Encounter in Progress” to travel to a dungeon boss when it is engaged by the group. This will eventually roll out to all existing dungeons, but below is a list of the dungeons that currently have this functionality added: [...]

cyberjanet

Ryuvain wrote: »

This ever gonna be looked at or acknowledged?
Has any devs ever brought this up at all?

It has been acknowledged, and is being addressed as we speak. From the patch notes for the PTS for the next update:

You will now utilize “Joining Encounter in Progress” to travel to a dungeon boss when it is engaged by the group. This will eventually roll out to all existing dungeons

Ok this doesn't solve the quests problem, but at least you'll get to the boss.

It is starting with the more advanced dungeons, but I have no reason to believe they will not rollout to starter dungeons. They know there is a problem. Initially:

City of Ash II
Cradle of Shadows
Crypt of Hearts II
Darkshade Caverns II
Elden Hollow II
Falkreath Hold
Fang Lair
Imperial City Prison
March of Sacrifices
Moon Hunter Keep
Ruins of Mazzatun
Scalecaller Peak
Spindleclutch II
Wayrest Sewers II
White-Gold Tower

Ryuvain

perfiction wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

This ever gonna be looked at or acknowledged?

Ofc it was looked at, in next update if people rush ahead of you and start fighting the boss you will automatically teleport to them. ZOS helps low lvl players to keep up during random normal dungeons :

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/586882/pts-patch-notes-v7-2-0 wrote:

You will now utilize “Joining Encounter in Progress” to travel to a dungeon boss when it is engaged by the group. This will eventually roll out to all existing dungeons, but below is a list of the dungeons that currently have this functionality added: [...]

Feel like this will just encourage more rushing, doesnt solve skipping bosses, and doesnt help when npcs have to show up or finish talking to do quest...

TheImperfect

Story mode would fix this, think it should be an option.

Nanfoodle

cyberjanet wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

This ever gonna be looked at or acknowledged?
Has any devs ever brought this up at all?

It has been acknowledged, and is being addressed as we speak. From the patch notes for the PTS for the next update:

You will now utilize “Joining Encounter in Progress” to travel to a dungeon boss when it is engaged by the group. This will eventually roll out to all existing dungeons

Ok this doesn't solve the quests problem, but at least you'll get to the boss.

It is starting with the more advanced dungeons, but I have no reason to believe they will not rollout to starter dungeons. They know there is a problem. Initially:

City of Ash II
Cradle of Shadows
Crypt of Hearts II
Darkshade Caverns II
Elden Hollow II
Falkreath Hold
Fang Lair
Imperial City Prison
March of Sacrifices
Moon Hunter Keep
Ruins of Mazzatun
Scalecaller Peak
Spindleclutch II
Wayrest Sewers II
White-Gold Tower

Thats just a mess, they may as well just remove quest from dungeons at this point. Its unfair to look skill points behind content the community at large does not want to let new players do.

Nanfoodle

TheImperfect wrote: »

Story mode would fix this, think it should be an option.

I agree. Let people run the dungeons on easy mode that have reg loot over dungeon loot to let people do just the quests.

merpins

adding more sources of Transmute stones would also help fix this to some extent. Though doing that would mean they'd need to lower the amount you get from the random daily or add a cap, which would in turn fix it.

Maybe make it so daily endeavors give 10 transmute stones and weekly give 20. Maybe make it so completing a quest gives a transmute stone. Maybe make it tied to achievements. Or make it so you can only get a number of stones per-day per account, and add them to the drop table of overland monsters, like 1 in 20 with a cap of 50 or 100 (or 10 for each character slot you own including what you start with). None of the solutions are perfect, but especially the last one would lower the rate of people running ahead in random dailies.

GuildedLilly

Some players in groups rush ahead...I don't. If I see a group member hanging around NPCs. I'll even straight up ask if anyone is new or doing quest-- and I generally won't get an answer until they die to an avoidable mech. For the ones do who answer me-- whether straightaway or belatedly after dying to something I could have warned them about, I'll explain boss mechs before each fight, and dungeon mechs that are important.

In every group I've been in for normal dungeons, if someone says they're doing quest, the other members don't have a problem with it. We'll wait for the NPC's dialog to finish throughout the dungeon-- or clear trash mobs and wait before pulling bosses, and we'll wait at the end, too. We wait if we KNOW. If we don't? Most of us have a limited amount of time in which to play, and we've done these dungeons runs dozens, 100's, perhaps 1000's of times. We won't be idling through.

Yesterday, when FG1 was one of the undaunted quests-- I noticed 2 players in my group hanging around the NPCs. I waited. One of the DPS ran ahead and cleared the 1st mob, and noticed the rest of us weren't following. They came back. We ran the entire dungeon together ( no waterfall shortcut)--and between the 1st DPS and my damage as a pet sorc tank with magika det, daedric prey, caltrops, and storm atronach...we were melting things. We waited for the questers to get their skill points. One of the questers goes 'Thanks for the carry, [snip].' --the other 3 of us said tyfg.

I mention this because speed runners aren't the only problem. Random normal dungeon runs can include players of wildly different power levels and skills--and even if the group is making an effort to make sure questers or those new to the game get the 'full' dungeon experience, there are players who will complain. There are players who will feel slighted. There are players who will feel frustrated. There is no easy solution.

Artificially gating dungeons (like what currently happens in 1 part of Spindleclutch) may stop the runners to a degree, but it won't stop people from complaining. Pulling players into boss encounters the second they enter the dungeon if they're replacing a player, or pulling them into boss encounters before they've had a chance to speak to needed NPCs doesn't fix it either. My advice is if you're new or on a quest: SAY SO asap. Most groups who clear dungeons quickly aren't doing it to be malicious, and we WILL wait and/or explain mechs if you need--but if you don't say anything, how are we supposed to know?

PS: Story mode sounds like an interesting idea

[edited for profanity bypass]

El_Borracho

Lower loot? Get rid of transmutes? Disable sprinting? Create a story mode?

Here's a novel suggestion: Post in chat "On Quest." Be social. The vast majority of players who pug random normals will acknowledge that and slow down. Works much better than demanding an entire game be retooled.

Nanfoodle

El_Borracho wrote: »

Lower loot? Get rid of transmutes? Disable sprinting? Create a story mode?

Here's a novel suggestion: Post in chat "On Quest." Be social. The vast majority of players who pug random normals will acknowledge that and slow down. Works much better than demanding an entire game be retooled.

I only started playing ESO just over 3 years ago. This statement is not true. I cant count the number of times I said I needed to do the quest in a random and got kicked and I play my main as a healer. I would say about 1 in 8 groups are helpful and its not always the entire team. I have been in more then one team, where one person in the team just does not care and just solos the dungeon, leaving me to have to run the same dungeon a few times to get the quest done. I personally have given up on getting skill points from dungeon quests.

oldbobdude

I’ve been playing since March. I’ve seen this while soloing but i think when you group and use activity finder for random you get an instance. If you’re talking about your group members running ahead make sure they know youve taken the quest.

El_Borracho

Nanfoodle wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Lower loot? Get rid of transmutes? Disable sprinting? Create a story mode?

Here's a novel suggestion: Post in chat "On Quest." Be social. The vast majority of players who pug random normals will acknowledge that and slow down. Works much better than demanding an entire game be retooled.

I only started playing ESO just over 3 years ago. This statement is not true. I cant count the number of times I said I needed to do the quest in a random and got kicked and I play my main as a healer. I would say about 1 in 8 groups are helpful and its not always the entire team. I have been in more then one team, where one person in the team just does not care and just solos the dungeon, leaving me to have to run the same dungeon a few times to get the quest done. I personally have given up on getting skill points from dungeon quests.

I've had the opposite experience. Ran one yesterday on a magplar that was on a shelf for a while and realized it didn't do the quest in Tempest Island. The awful one where you have to kill everyone on beach and talk to the slow NPCs. Everyone was over CP 1,500, no issues. Ran another where a newbie needed the quest in Selene's. Everyone waited.

Not saying it doesn't happen. And it happens A LOT more in places like Direfrost, Fungal 1, or Vaults of Madness where the quest is either glacial speeds slow or requires an extra boss. But the alternative of forcing a slowdown or eliminating loot would result in a massive loss of veteran players running randoms that would not be replaced by questers or brand new players. Joining a guild and running with friends are other suggestions. But for the most part, I expect groups to run in a base normal dungeon these days.

Not to go all slippery slope, but what's the next step? Making groups have to sit through all the dialogue in a trial or dungeon before moving on because someone wants to hear it? Reading all the books or notes? These are complaints others have that they also think should fall into this thread.

Nanfoodle

El_Borracho wrote: »

Nanfoodle wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Lower loot? Get rid of transmutes? Disable sprinting? Create a story mode?

Here's a novel suggestion: Post in chat "On Quest." Be social. The vast majority of players who pug random normals will acknowledge that and slow down. Works much better than demanding an entire game be retooled.

I only started playing ESO just over 3 years ago. This statement is not true. I cant count the number of times I said I needed to do the quest in a random and got kicked and I play my main as a healer. I would say about 1 in 8 groups are helpful and its not always the entire team. I have been in more then one team, where one person in the team just does not care and just solos the dungeon, leaving me to have to run the same dungeon a few times to get the quest done. I personally have given up on getting skill points from dungeon quests.

I've had the opposite experience. Ran one yesterday on a magplar that was on a shelf for a while and realized it didn't do the quest in Tempest Island. The awful one where you have to kill everyone on beach and talk to the slow NPCs. Everyone was over CP 1,500, no issues. Ran another where a newbie needed the quest in Selene's. Everyone waited.

Not saying it doesn't happen. And it happens A LOT more in places like Direfrost, Fungal 1, or Vaults of Madness where the quest is either glacial speeds slow or requires an extra boss. But the alternative of forcing a slowdown or eliminating loot would result in a massive loss of veteran players running randoms that would not be replaced by questers or brand new players. Joining a guild and running with friends are other suggestions. But for the most part, I expect groups to run in a base normal dungeon these days.

Not to go all slippery slope, but what's the next step? Making groups have to sit through all the dialogue in a trial or dungeon before moving on because someone wants to hear it? Reading all the books or notes? These are complaints others have that they also think should fall into this thread.

Whats the next step? Add a Q for random daily that lets you mark, doing the quest. Give people bigger rewards if they help people do the quest. Add story mode, so people dont need people to do the story and get the skill point. Have a mentor Q that gives rewards for helping new players, so people joining that Q would be like minded players. Snare players that run ahead of the team by more then 30 feet by 90%. I could go on and on.

Franchise408

I am still of the mind that group dungeons / trials is not the place for stories. There should be no storylines in dungeons / trials, other than a basic concept at most.

Nanfoodle

Franchise408 wrote: »

I am still of the mind that group dungeons / trials is not the place for stories. There should be no storylines in dungeons / trials, other than a basic concept at most.

This would be the best option IMO. Move the quests and skill points out of the dungeons.

moo_2021

Ryuvain wrote: »

Feel like i have to apologize to them for others dumb behavior.

We can start kicking them, just like how others often suggested to kick underperforming players.


That'd make it absolutely hell for anyone who rush or farm and force them to stop using the dungeon finder.

We don't have to be victims.

Colecovision

The reality is that you will be better off if you find people to play with who share your goals. Ignore that reality or don't.

The speed running is going to get SO MUCH WORSE with the new rng system. The second it launches people with all the armor but not the weapons, will need the final boss and only the final boss. In fact we need that final boss upwards of 30 times for the set collection and the rest of the dungeon has no reward at all.

I won't be the guy that wrecks your run, so don't get mad at me here, but there's going to be way more people laser focused on that final boss for a little while. My advice is to expect that and work around the DF for questing.

aipex8_ESO

What I hate more is people pulling all the mobs through delves, so if you happen to go in after them, all mobs are unattackable, and running towards you then past you. So [snip] annoying. I can actually get through a delve faster killing [snip] because I use Stampede to get to each group (and with Maelstrom 2H, unleased terror and rushing agony I don't usually have to do much more).

[edited for profanity bypass]

Aznarb

Never had this problem, when I'm on a new char I always type at the start "hi, got the quest" and done, no one was rushing to much and waiting for me.

In another hand, I see many player that didn't said anything and then complain.

LadySinflower

A couple of responses to comments above.

Acknowledging the "pulling to current encounter" note that has been quoted above, how do we know that they are not trying to come up with solutions to things we complain most about, like this topic? How many of you are programmers or coders? I'm not one. But I do know that when trying to find a solution to a problem, first they have to come up with a fix that will work inside the game and not give some advantages while hurting others. Once a suggested solution has been arrived at, the code has to be written. Devs have lots of responsibilities that they have to prioritize. They may not be able to start writing the new code immediately. When they can, it will take time. After it's written, it has to be approved by bosses and then tested, before it can be put into the live game. All of this takes time. Yes we want our "pain points" addressed yesterday, but we have no way of knowing whether they already are being addressed. ZOS could be better communicators, but they are really under no obligation to tell us every little thing they are doing right now. A bit of devil's advocate here.

Second, on the topic of "if you don't tell us not to rush how can we know?" Well, everyone doesn't have a keyboard. You all know how long it takes to type anything in chat using the on-screen keyboard. By the time someone types out "I'm trying to do the quest," everyone else has rushed forward. You can't open the chat in advance to start typing. If the rushers are the type who let mobs chase them to the boss, that lone player is now stuck trying to solo through all those skipped mobs and catch up. The person above who pays attention to fellow group members hanging around the NPCs, thank you. That's admirable, but most players don't do that. It's all "me me me." "I only want to spend ten minutes at most getting these transmutes." "I only have an hour to play, got to hurry through everything I want to do." "I don't care if that guy needs the quest. He ain't wasting my time to get it." How much extra time does it really take to wait for a group member to talk to 3-4 NPCs along the way? Two minutes tops? But for those who would wait if notified, maybe wait 30 seconds or so to let someone type out a chat message before you start running. We don't all have headsets and in game voice chat hasn't really been reliable lately. Help out your fellow group members if you can.

No offense intended. Just trying to show the other side of a couple of points.

kargen27

I would like to see a change made so every mob and boss in the dungeon has to die if you want the daily reward. You miss that one skeleton archer back in the corner near the start you gotta go back and get him.

I was thinking maybe increase the daily rewards but make them account not character based. That would take care of players rushing because they still have eleven more characters to get through. Problem with this is it might make it harder to fill groups because once the players that only want the rewards are done they will no longer queue. Plus is when you do get a group they will probably be more willing to wait.
Making the reward tied to account instead of character also might cause people not to drop DLC dungeons so quick. If they only need the one maybe they won't mind if the run takes an extra few minutes.

Not sure you can do much about players wanting to farm the last boss for gear. I do know they have a better chance of getting more runs in if they try to form a group in zone chat that also is looking to farm last boss.
What will be interesting is how group finder works a month or so after the update to RNG. The farming should be about at an end for the heavy grinders by then.

Aznarb

Second, on the topic of "if you don't tell us not to rush how can we know?" Well, everyone doesn't have a keyboard. You all know how long it takes to type anything in chat using the on-screen keyboard. By the time someone types out "I'm trying to do the quest," everyone else has rushed forward. You can't open the chat in advance to start typing. If the rushers are the type who let mobs chase them to the boss, that lone player is now stuck trying to solo through all those skipped mobs and catch up. The person above who pays attention to fellow group members hanging around the NPCs, thank you. That's admirable, but most players don't do that. It's all "me me me." "I only want to spend ten minutes at most getting these transmutes." "I only have an hour to play, got to hurry through everything I want to do." "I don't care if that guy needs the quest. He ain't wasting my time to get it." How much extra time does it really take to wait for a group member to talk to 3-4 NPCs along the way? Two minutes tops? But for those who would wait if notified, maybe wait 30 seconds or so to let someone type out a chat message before you start running. We don't all have headsets and in game voice chat hasn't really been reliable lately. Help out your fellow group members if you can.

So basically you're frustrated than :
1 - Players don't read your mind
2 - Not getting organized run at your own pace in a RANDOM group ?
Sorry, that not how it work.
Find a guild then, that the simple solution.

"it's all me me me" is exactly how you're looking to me right now.
Everyone got this problem, guild are here to avoid this.