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Welcome back ball groups!

Theignson
Theignson
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Of course, Hrothgar and Dark Convergence are/were ridiculously overpowered. They, mere procs, were hitting 2-3x harder than my ultimates. Not right!

However, they were very effective at stopping zergs from overwhelming keeps and stopping ball groups from taking 60 laps around Arrius third floor.

Last night the effect was obvious. The AD massive zerg, full pop locked at 3 am EST (PC NA), overwhelmed the 2 bar EP faction at Arrius (with help from DC of course). When both Hroth and DC were full strength, EP actually repelled such zergs in the last couple weeks (thank you 219,000 dtick!)

And, very tyr-some, last night the DC ball group ran into Arrius and did at least 60 laps (over an hour) on the third floor. Just the day before, we (randon EP pugs) had slaughtered this same ball group dozens of times. Amazing the effect of one set! The poor pugs were dismayed-- "They take no damage" "They run right through Dark Convergence" "They are on lap 55"

Since the ball group seemed only to want to get their aerobic exercise, and didnt even bother to try to flag the keep, myself and many of the other pugs gated out of arrius and tried to staunch the massive AD zerg.

But there has to be some other way !
Quakrson, Stam DK, Grand Overlord
Trackrsen, Stam Warden, Grand Overlord
Quakrsen, Mag DK, Overlord
Tolliverson, Stam NB, General
Farfarel, Stam Necro, Praetorian
Spencerson, Templar, Prefect
Phosphorsen, Stam Sorc, Colonel
Phosphorson, Mag Sorc, Centurion
Glimson, Arcanist, Major
All EP/ PC NA
  • Rhaegar75
    Rhaegar75
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    I find myself agreeing with you despite my profound hate for proc sets....I hate lapping zergs even more!
  • Larcomar
    Larcomar
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    I saw the nerf to hrothdar. What was th enerf to dark convergence? I thought that was on the pts not live
  • Theignson
    Theignson
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    Dark convergence not nerfed yet afaik.

    However, the best ball groups, to their credit, spend long hours testing and probing the game for flaws, which they then exploit.

    And last night, we had much discussion about how this well known aerobic-fitness-running group was running right through Dark Convergence.

    In other words, they were not being pulled (unlike the hapless zergs)(or unlike us hapless solo pugs who get pulled all over the map).

    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    So maybe it wasnt the Hrothgar nerf, but that the runners found an exploit in DC mechanics

    For example, they were running very fast, one idea is they are outrunning the server, desyncing it so they never get pulled by the purple orb.

    Quakrson, Stam DK, Grand Overlord
    Trackrsen, Stam Warden, Grand Overlord
    Quakrsen, Mag DK, Overlord
    Tolliverson, Stam NB, General
    Farfarel, Stam Necro, Praetorian
    Spencerson, Templar, Prefect
    Phosphorsen, Stam Sorc, Colonel
    Phosphorson, Mag Sorc, Centurion
    Glimson, Arcanist, Major
    All EP/ PC NA
  • Larcomar
    Larcomar
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    Ah a cheat - or an exploit. Yeah, we've got a couple of groups over here - pc eu - that are miraculously immune to stuff. It's just the way it is. Zos won't touch them. When you see them, just leave.

    I'm finding DC is still v effective against "zergs." Or, to be blunt, any group of players trying to, you know, play the map. You just bung it on the ram / breach / door / flag and let nature take it's course. Fun for a bit anyway.
  • divnyi
    divnyi
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    Theignson wrote: »
    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    Threaders doesn't save, but pots give stun immunity. Anything with stun immunity can't be pulled.
  • neferpitou73
    neferpitou73
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    divnyi wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    Threaders doesn't save, but pots give stun immunity. Anything with stun immunity can't be pulled.

    I believe DC is the one exception to stun immunity in the game. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if it's bugged since CC immunity is bugged to begin with.
  • KingzZVI
    KingzZVI
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    Ballgroups deserve to enjoy the game just like you. If you dont enjoy getting killed over and over then leave the keep. But constantly complaining about ballgroups isnt the problem, the real issue is people who casually play thinks the game should be nerfed to there skill level which is completely dumb imo. Ballgroups are made up of 12 good players who work on there strategies to succeed and shouldnt be nerfed or have there builds constantly nerfed cause people are upset they dying. Just my thoughts
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Theignson wrote: »
    Dark convergence not nerfed yet afaik.

    However, the best ball groups, to their credit, spend long hours testing and probing the game for flaws, which they then exploit.

    And last night, we had much discussion about how this well known aerobic-fitness-running group was running right through Dark Convergence.

    In other words, they were not being pulled (unlike the hapless zergs)(or unlike us hapless solo pugs who get pulled all over the map).

    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    So maybe it wasnt the Hrothgar nerf, but that the runners found an exploit in DC mechanics

    For example, they were running very fast, one idea is they are outrunning the server, desyncing it so they never get pulled by the purple orb.

    I kind of feel bad. You are convinced that those players who you have publicly identified to anyone familiar with PC NA are actually cheating because a disorganized collection of players was unable to stop them from running around on the third floor of a keep.

    Since this charge has existed since 2014 (when it was EP who invented the "lag switch") and the devs seem incapable of leveling the playing field between people who organize and those who don't, you probably should look for a new MMO where the devs have found the correct formula such that a disorganized collection of X players can go toe-to-toe with a coordinated group of X players.
    Edited by Joy_Division on September 22, 2021 3:14PM
  • divnyi
    divnyi
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    divnyi wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    Threaders doesn't save, but pots give stun immunity. Anything with stun immunity can't be pulled.

    I believe DC is the one exception to stun immunity in the game. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if it's bugged since CC immunity is bugged to begin with.

    There is no exception for DC.

    There is an exception for Rush of Agony, but it is clearly stated in text. Furthermore, it does not pull enemies that are already in stun-immune, only does not apply stun-immune itself.
    Edited by divnyi on September 22, 2021 5:20PM
  • YandereGirlfriend
    YandereGirlfriend
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    I'm guessing that... some players... haven't looked into min/max'ing their Hard-CC immunity period.

    Because if they had they would have discovered that it's actually quite possible to obtain near-permanent immunity.
  • Rhaegar75
    Rhaegar75
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    Maybe ball groups are indeed full of skilled players…..to me they look more like the bot armies you used to see in Korean mmos.

    Very very boring playstyle but hey to each their own: if people fancy playing like a bot five for them

    🤖 🤖 🤖 🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖
    Edited by Rhaegar75 on September 22, 2021 7:33PM
  • Theignson
    Theignson
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    Theignson wrote: »
    Dark convergence not nerfed yet afaik.

    However, the best ball groups, to their credit, spend long hours testing and probing the game for flaws, which they then exploit.

    And last night, we had much discussion about how this well known aerobic-fitness-running group was running right through Dark Convergence.

    In other words, they were not being pulled (unlike the hapless zergs)(or unlike us hapless solo pugs who get pulled all over the map).

    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    So maybe it wasnt the Hrothgar nerf, but that the runners found an exploit in DC mechanics

    For example, they were running very fast, one idea is they are outrunning the server, desyncing it so they never get pulled by the purple orb.

    I kind of feel bad. You are convinced that those players who you have publicly identified to anyone familiar with PC NA are actually cheating because a disorganized collection of players was unable to stop them from running around on the third floor of a keep.

    Since this charge has existed since 2014 (when it was EP who invented the "lag switch") and the devs seem incapable of leveling the playing field between people who organize and those who don't, you probably should look for a new MMO where the devs have found the correct formula such that a disorganized collection of X players can go toe-to-toe with a coordinated group of X players.

    No Joy I never said they cheat. Exploiting or using a flaw (and maybe it is intentional mechanic and not even a flaw, who knows) in the game is NOT cheating IMO. Player vs. Developer has been in MMOs forever.
    Cheating is using a speed hack, or using cheat engine etc. It is not using existing game mechanics. Using existing game mechanics shows a deep knowledge of the game.
    I am now pretty convinced they are just using super speed to desync the game and avoid being pulled by DC. If you run out of the area fast enough, the game incorrectly designates who should get hit based on who is in the 8m area. Thus it will not pull them even though it appears they were in the pull radius.

    I don't want to get back into the tedious discussion of whether 40 or 50 disorganized pugs should or shouldnt be able to kill 12 people in a good ball group.
    Quakrson, Stam DK, Grand Overlord
    Trackrsen, Stam Warden, Grand Overlord
    Quakrsen, Mag DK, Overlord
    Tolliverson, Stam NB, General
    Farfarel, Stam Necro, Praetorian
    Spencerson, Templar, Prefect
    Phosphorsen, Stam Sorc, Colonel
    Phosphorson, Mag Sorc, Centurion
    Glimson, Arcanist, Major
    All EP/ PC NA
  • Theignson
    Theignson
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    divnyi wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    Threaders doesn't save, but pots give stun immunity. Anything with stun immunity can't be pulled.

    Interesting, so just potion extenders would do it for most of the usual cooldown
    Quakrson, Stam DK, Grand Overlord
    Trackrsen, Stam Warden, Grand Overlord
    Quakrsen, Mag DK, Overlord
    Tolliverson, Stam NB, General
    Farfarel, Stam Necro, Praetorian
    Spencerson, Templar, Prefect
    Phosphorsen, Stam Sorc, Colonel
    Phosphorson, Mag Sorc, Centurion
    Glimson, Arcanist, Major
    All EP/ PC NA
  • Theignson
    Theignson
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    KingzZVI wrote: »
    Ballgroups deserve to enjoy the game just like you. If you dont enjoy getting killed over and over then leave the keep. But constantly complaining about ballgroups isnt the problem, the real issue is people who casually play thinks the game should be nerfed to there skill level which is completely dumb imo. Ballgroups are made up of 12 good players who work on there strategies to succeed and shouldnt be nerfed or have there builds constantly nerfed cause people are upset they dying. Just my thoughts

    Lol they don't kill me over and over. If they want to run around Arrius 3rd floor 60 times killing 2-3 pugs at a time, that is their right to be sure. It's not something I consider fun but to each his own.

    I remember long ago seeing Dracarys, a ball group I much admire, fight open field battles against a larger but organized AD guild and or Ball group They were outnumbered but did quite well. Now that's an encounter I admired, ball group on ball group.
    Apparently those opportunities don't exist anymore. This aerobic activity is a pale shadow of the glory days...imho...but again to each his own!
    Quakrson, Stam DK, Grand Overlord
    Trackrsen, Stam Warden, Grand Overlord
    Quakrsen, Mag DK, Overlord
    Tolliverson, Stam NB, General
    Farfarel, Stam Necro, Praetorian
    Spencerson, Templar, Prefect
    Phosphorsen, Stam Sorc, Colonel
    Phosphorson, Mag Sorc, Centurion
    Glimson, Arcanist, Major
    All EP/ PC NA
  • NotTaylorSwift
    NotTaylorSwift
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    divnyi wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    Threaders doesn't save, but pots give stun immunity. Anything with stun immunity can't be pulled.

    I believe DC is the one exception to stun immunity in the game. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if it's bugged since CC immunity is bugged to begin with.

    Im like 99% sure it doesn’t ignore CC immunity. If you have immunity it doesn’t pull you, otherwise you would literally not be able to move as every single person is running it.

    Wasn’t it on the pts at one point that it ignored CC immunity? I’m sure I remember reading it but the live version of the set doesn’t mention anything like that. Either way, you can run through DC if you have CC immunity. And it definitely should NOT ignore it… that would be… something else :S
  • NotTaylorSwift
    NotTaylorSwift
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    Theignson wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    Dark convergence not nerfed yet afaik.

    However, the best ball groups, to their credit, spend long hours testing and probing the game for flaws, which they then exploit.

    And last night, we had much discussion about how this well known aerobic-fitness-running group was running right through Dark Convergence.

    In other words, they were not being pulled (unlike the hapless zergs)(or unlike us hapless solo pugs who get pulled all over the map).

    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    So maybe it wasnt the Hrothgar nerf, but that the runners found an exploit in DC mechanics

    For example, they were running very fast, one idea is they are outrunning the server, desyncing it so they never get pulled by the purple orb.

    I kind of feel bad. You are convinced that those players who you have publicly identified to anyone familiar with PC NA are actually cheating because a disorganized collection of players was unable to stop them from running around on the third floor of a keep.

    Since this charge has existed since 2014 (when it was EP who invented the "lag switch") and the devs seem incapable of leveling the playing field between people who organize and those who don't, you probably should look for a new MMO where the devs have found the correct formula such that a disorganized collection of X players can go toe-to-toe with a coordinated group of X players.

    No Joy I never said they cheat. Exploiting or using a flaw (and maybe it is intentional mechanic and not even a flaw, who knows) in the game is NOT cheating IMO. Player vs. Developer has been in MMOs forever.
    Cheating is using a speed hack, or using cheat engine etc. It is not using existing game mechanics. Using existing game mechanics shows a deep knowledge of the game.
    I am now pretty convinced they are just using super speed to desync the game and avoid being pulled by DC. If you run out of the area fast enough, the game incorrectly designates who should get hit based on who is in the 8m area. Thus it will not pull them even though it appears they were in the pull radius.

    I don't want to get back into the tedious discussion of whether 40 or 50 disorganized pugs should or shouldnt be able to kill 12 people in a good ball group.

    Btw do you not know that DC begins pulling 1 second after proccing and then only pulls every 2 seconds? It is possible to be in and out of the radius between pulls. It’s not like players can actively time when they are running through it but it will happen sometimes that people ‘skip’ the pull just by being lucky enough. So it is not guaranteed to pull every time.

    And what even are you talking about, “using super speed to desync the game”. Did you re-read that before posting? How can you possibly think that is a legitimate explanation? Baffling.

    Also people say all the time about exploiting the game. What are they ‘exploiting’?? Using skills and sets which work best for a specific situation is not ‘exploiting’, it’s just being effective and efficient.
    Edited by NotTaylorSwift on September 22, 2021 11:07PM
  • KingzZVI
    KingzZVI
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    Rhaegar75 wrote: »
    Maybe ball groups are indeed full of skilled players…..to me they look more like the bot armies you used to see in Korean mmos.

    Very very boring playstyle but hey to each their own: if people fancy playing like a bot five for them

    🤖 🤖 🤖 🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖

    Im guessing you never played in a ballgroup then lol
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Theignson wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    Dark convergence not nerfed yet afaik.

    However, the best ball groups, to their credit, spend long hours testing and probing the game for flaws, which they then exploit.

    And last night, we had much discussion about how this well known aerobic-fitness-running group was running right through Dark Convergence.

    In other words, they were not being pulled (unlike the hapless zergs)(or unlike us hapless solo pugs who get pulled all over the map).

    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    So maybe it wasnt the Hrothgar nerf, but that the runners found an exploit in DC mechanics

    For example, they were running very fast, one idea is they are outrunning the server, desyncing it so they never get pulled by the purple orb.

    I kind of feel bad. You are convinced that those players who you have publicly identified to anyone familiar with PC NA are actually cheating because a disorganized collection of players was unable to stop them from running around on the third floor of a keep.

    Since this charge has existed since 2014 (when it was EP who invented the "lag switch") and the devs seem incapable of leveling the playing field between people who organize and those who don't, you probably should look for a new MMO where the devs have found the correct formula such that a disorganized collection of X players can go toe-to-toe with a coordinated group of X players.

    No Joy I never said they cheat. Exploiting or using a flaw (and maybe it is intentional mechanic and not even a flaw, who knows) in the game is NOT cheating IMO. Player vs. Developer has been in MMOs forever.
    Cheating is using a speed hack, or using cheat engine etc. It is not using existing game mechanics. Using existing game mechanics shows a deep knowledge of the game.
    I am now pretty convinced they are just using super speed to desync the game and avoid being pulled by DC. If you run out of the area fast enough, the game incorrectly designates who should get hit based on who is in the 8m area. Thus it will not pull them even though it appears they were in the pull radius.

    I don't want to get back into the tedious discussion of whether 40 or 50 disorganized pugs should or shouldnt be able to kill 12 people in a good ball group.

    Btw do you not know that DC begins pulling 1 second after proccing and then only pulls every 2 seconds? It is possible to be in and out of the radius between pulls. It’s not like players can actively time when they are running through it but it will happen sometimes that people ‘skip’ the pull just by being lucky enough. So it is not guaranteed to pull every time.

    And what even are you talking about, “using super speed to desync the game”. Did you re-read that before posting? How can you possibly think that is a legitimate explanation? Baffling.

    Players at or very near the speed cap can have positional desyncs that make it very hard to target them properly.

    It's an extension of how the server doesn't properly render where other players are on the screen. Most of the time it's fine, but perhaps you've seen players you are riding with rubberbanding or thought you beat someone in a race to a node only for them to pick it up? That's an example of when the server doesn't properly show where the other players is. It also affects targeting in combat.

    We know that high speed can cause issues in Cyrodiil specifically because of the 2018 Murkmire patch when ZOS nerfed most sources of speed.

    Here's some insight into what was going on from the Class Rep notes:

    "ZOS told us they are aware players are moving too fast and are too difficult to target with melee and short ranged abilities. They want to slow us down. Swift Jewelry was something that was specifically mentioned. The Major Expedition buff being too strong was hinted at. The reps agreed that players are too fast and that Swift Jewelry is a primary offender, especially when it was additive to other speed boosts and Forward Momentum. The reps did not agree that the Major Expedition was too strong. It was mentioned that diminishing returns may be a better way to address the issue than flat out nerfs as it is the stacking of speed that is the primary issue."
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437982/class-reps-meeting-notes-september-25/p1


    Now, none of the above should be taken to mean that super speed desyncing the game IS what this group is doing. I'm not there and haven't seen it myself. Just know that the above has been an issue in the past, so it's not entirely out there that high speed causes targeting issues.
    Edited by VaranisArano on September 22, 2021 11:19PM
  • divnyi
    divnyi
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    I'm guessing that... some players... haven't looked into min/max'ing their Hard-CC immunity period.

    Because if they had they would have discovered that it's actually quite possible to obtain near-permanent immunity.

    I have, but except the extended poison route, which comes from some very bad 2-4pc set, I don't know what can cause near-permanent immunity. Pots definitely don't do that. Well heavy armor skill is that, but that kills your movement.

    Am I missing something here?
  • divnyi
    divnyi
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    Theignson wrote: »
    divnyi wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    Threaders doesn't save, but pots give stun immunity. Anything with stun immunity can't be pulled.

    Interesting, so just potion extenders would do it for most of the usual cooldown

    Well if you don't drink red PvP pot when you engage teamfight nowadays, you are doing it wrong.
    At least if you are playing damage character, and not tanky bruiser.
  • NotTaylorSwift
    NotTaylorSwift
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    Theignson wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    Dark convergence not nerfed yet afaik.

    However, the best ball groups, to their credit, spend long hours testing and probing the game for flaws, which they then exploit.

    And last night, we had much discussion about how this well known aerobic-fitness-running group was running right through Dark Convergence.

    In other words, they were not being pulled (unlike the hapless zergs)(or unlike us hapless solo pugs who get pulled all over the map).

    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    So maybe it wasnt the Hrothgar nerf, but that the runners found an exploit in DC mechanics

    For example, they were running very fast, one idea is they are outrunning the server, desyncing it so they never get pulled by the purple orb.

    I kind of feel bad. You are convinced that those players who you have publicly identified to anyone familiar with PC NA are actually cheating because a disorganized collection of players was unable to stop them from running around on the third floor of a keep.

    Since this charge has existed since 2014 (when it was EP who invented the "lag switch") and the devs seem incapable of leveling the playing field between people who organize and those who don't, you probably should look for a new MMO where the devs have found the correct formula such that a disorganized collection of X players can go toe-to-toe with a coordinated group of X players.

    No Joy I never said they cheat. Exploiting or using a flaw (and maybe it is intentional mechanic and not even a flaw, who knows) in the game is NOT cheating IMO. Player vs. Developer has been in MMOs forever.
    Cheating is using a speed hack, or using cheat engine etc. It is not using existing game mechanics. Using existing game mechanics shows a deep knowledge of the game.
    I am now pretty convinced they are just using super speed to desync the game and avoid being pulled by DC. If you run out of the area fast enough, the game incorrectly designates who should get hit based on who is in the 8m area. Thus it will not pull them even though it appears they were in the pull radius.

    I don't want to get back into the tedious discussion of whether 40 or 50 disorganized pugs should or shouldnt be able to kill 12 people in a good ball group.

    Btw do you not know that DC begins pulling 1 second after proccing and then only pulls every 2 seconds? It is possible to be in and out of the radius between pulls. It’s not like players can actively time when they are running through it but it will happen sometimes that people ‘skip’ the pull just by being lucky enough. So it is not guaranteed to pull every time.

    And what even are you talking about, “using super speed to desync the game”. Did you re-read that before posting? How can you possibly think that is a legitimate explanation? Baffling.

    Players at or very near the speed cap can have positional desyncs that make it very hard to target them properly.

    It's an extension of how the server doesn't properly render where other players are on the screen. Most of the time it's fine, but perhaps you've seen players you are riding with rubberbanding or thought you beat someone in a race to a node only for them to pick it up? That's an example of when the server doesn't properly show where the other players is. It also affects targeting in combat.

    We know that high speed can cause issues in Cyrodiil specifically because of the 2018 Murkmire patch when ZOS nerfed most sources of speed.

    Here's some insight into what was going on from the Class Rep notes:

    "ZOS told us they are aware players are moving too fast and are too difficult to target with melee and short ranged abilities. They want to slow us down. Swift Jewelry was something that was specifically mentioned. The Major Expedition buff being too strong was hinted at. The reps agreed that players are too fast and that Swift Jewelry is a primary offender, especially when it was additive to other speed boosts and Forward Momentum. The reps did not agree that the Major Expedition was too strong. It was mentioned that diminishing returns may be a better way to address the issue than flat out nerfs as it is the stacking of speed that is the primary issue."
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437982/class-reps-meeting-notes-september-25/p1


    Now, none of the above should be taken to mean that super speed desyncing the game IS what this group is doing. I'm not there and haven't seen it myself. Just know that the above has been an issue in the past, so it's not entirely out there that high speed causes targeting issues.

    The game is always ‘desynced’ between players regardless of speed. Me and a friend tested this ourselves when duelling in a player home just two of us as we noticed ground aoe abilities not connecting. Get in voice with someone and run at the same time with your characters on top of each other and then take a screenshot, you can see just how far out it actually is sometimes. It’s really noticeable with dawnbreaker where you seemingly hit an enemy directly but it doesn’t connect. Also in our raid we have people playing from the same house right next to each other and they describe how their characters are in different places for each of them. For example one player on their screen can be in the middle of the group, but on the other person’s screen they are actually at the back.

    And no we don’t really get people rubberbanding like you described. The only desyncs we experience atm are from positional displacement ccs like DC and meteor.

    But I don’t see the issue with being difficult to target with melee and short range abilities if you are outrunning someone. That’s just the range of the ability and the speed of the player. Like saying you can’t hit a sorc with a melee attack after they just streaked away. If it appears they are in range but the ability doesn’t connect I’d say it’s just general positional desync which is there a lot of the time anyway, especially when the game is very laggy.
  • neferpitou73
    neferpitou73
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    divnyi wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    Threaders doesn't save, but pots give stun immunity. Anything with stun immunity can't be pulled.

    I believe DC is the one exception to stun immunity in the game. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if it's bugged since CC immunity is bugged to begin with.

    Im like 99% sure it doesn’t ignore CC immunity. If you have immunity it doesn’t pull you, otherwise you would literally not be able to move as every single person is running it.

    Wasn’t it on the pts at one point that it ignored CC immunity? I’m sure I remember reading it but the live version of the set doesn’t mention anything like that. Either way, you can run through DC if you have CC immunity. And it definitely should NOT ignore it… that would be… something else :S

    Perhaps I'm mistaken. But I have been pulled into the AOE after roll dodging out of it and other times where CC immunity should be active. Although as I said above that's likely due to the buggy nature of CC immunity
    Theignson wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    Dark convergence not nerfed yet afaik.

    However, the best ball groups, to their credit, spend long hours testing and probing the game for flaws, which they then exploit.

    And last night, we had much discussion about how this well known aerobic-fitness-running group was running right through Dark Convergence.

    In other words, they were not being pulled (unlike the hapless zergs)(or unlike us hapless solo pugs who get pulled all over the map).

    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    So maybe it wasnt the Hrothgar nerf, but that the runners found an exploit in DC mechanics

    For example, they were running very fast, one idea is they are outrunning the server, desyncing it so they never get pulled by the purple orb.

    I kind of feel bad. You are convinced that those players who you have publicly identified to anyone familiar with PC NA are actually cheating because a disorganized collection of players was unable to stop them from running around on the third floor of a keep.

    Since this charge has existed since 2014 (when it was EP who invented the "lag switch") and the devs seem incapable of leveling the playing field between people who organize and those who don't, you probably should look for a new MMO where the devs have found the correct formula such that a disorganized collection of X players can go toe-to-toe with a coordinated group of X players.

    No Joy I never said they cheat. Exploiting or using a flaw (and maybe it is intentional mechanic and not even a flaw, who knows) in the game is NOT cheating IMO. Player vs. Developer has been in MMOs forever.
    Cheating is using a speed hack, or using cheat engine etc. It is not using existing game mechanics. Using existing game mechanics shows a deep knowledge of the game.
    I am now pretty convinced they are just using super speed to desync the game and avoid being pulled by DC. If you run out of the area fast enough, the game incorrectly designates who should get hit based on who is in the 8m area. Thus it will not pull them even though it appears they were in the pull radius.

    I don't want to get back into the tedious discussion of whether 40 or 50 disorganized pugs should or shouldnt be able to kill 12 people in a good ball group.

    Btw do you not know that DC begins pulling 1 second after proccing and then only pulls every 2 seconds? It is possible to be in and out of the radius between pulls. It’s not like players can actively time when they are running through it but it will happen sometimes that people ‘skip’ the pull just by being lucky enough. So it is not guaranteed to pull every time.

    And what even are you talking about, “using super speed to desync the game”. Did you re-read that before posting? How can you possibly think that is a legitimate explanation? Baffling.

    Players at or very near the speed cap can have positional desyncs that make it very hard to target them properly.

    It's an extension of how the server doesn't properly render where other players are on the screen. Most of the time it's fine, but perhaps you've seen players you are riding with rubberbanding or thought you beat someone in a race to a node only for them to pick it up? That's an example of when the server doesn't properly show where the other players is. It also affects targeting in combat.

    We know that high speed can cause issues in Cyrodiil specifically because of the 2018 Murkmire patch when ZOS nerfed most sources of speed.

    Here's some insight into what was going on from the Class Rep notes:

    "ZOS told us they are aware players are moving too fast and are too difficult to target with melee and short ranged abilities. They want to slow us down. Swift Jewelry was something that was specifically mentioned. The Major Expedition buff being too strong was hinted at. The reps agreed that players are too fast and that Swift Jewelry is a primary offender, especially when it was additive to other speed boosts and Forward Momentum. The reps did not agree that the Major Expedition was too strong. It was mentioned that diminishing returns may be a better way to address the issue than flat out nerfs as it is the stacking of speed that is the primary issue."
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437982/class-reps-meeting-notes-september-25/p1


    Now, none of the above should be taken to mean that super speed desyncing the game IS what this group is doing. I'm not there and haven't seen it myself. Just know that the above has been an issue in the past, so it's not entirely out there that high speed causes targeting issues.

    Swift is incredibly OP. I've dropped harmony for it on most group builds I make nowadays because the extra ability to reposition is so invaluable. Especially if you're not confident your group can hit all the synergies.
    Edited by neferpitou73 on September 23, 2021 1:01AM
  • Rhaegar75
    Rhaegar75
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    KingzZVI wrote: »
    Rhaegar75 wrote: »
    Maybe ball groups are indeed full of skilled players…..to me they look more like the bot armies you used to see in Korean mmos.

    Very very boring playstyle but hey to each their own: if people fancy playing like a bot five for them

    🤖 🤖 🤖 🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖

    Im guessing you never played in a ballgroup then lol

    I'm not really interested enough or regimented enough to qualify for a ball group let alone wanting to play in one: even if I was the best PvPer guided by the ESO version of Alexander the Great....it would remain a boring and bot like playstyle

    To me it's boring...I can understand that others may find it amazing....to each their own
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Theignson wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    Dark convergence not nerfed yet afaik.

    However, the best ball groups, to their credit, spend long hours testing and probing the game for flaws, which they then exploit.

    And last night, we had much discussion about how this well known aerobic-fitness-running group was running right through Dark Convergence.

    In other words, they were not being pulled (unlike the hapless zergs)(or unlike us hapless solo pugs who get pulled all over the map).

    Even if they had treaders, or immovable pots, etc etc they should still be pulled.

    So maybe it wasnt the Hrothgar nerf, but that the runners found an exploit in DC mechanics

    For example, they were running very fast, one idea is they are outrunning the server, desyncing it so they never get pulled by the purple orb.

    I kind of feel bad. You are convinced that those players who you have publicly identified to anyone familiar with PC NA are actually cheating because a disorganized collection of players was unable to stop them from running around on the third floor of a keep.

    Since this charge has existed since 2014 (when it was EP who invented the "lag switch") and the devs seem incapable of leveling the playing field between people who organize and those who don't, you probably should look for a new MMO where the devs have found the correct formula such that a disorganized collection of X players can go toe-to-toe with a coordinated group of X players.

    No Joy I never said they cheat. Exploiting or using a flaw (and maybe it is intentional mechanic and not even a flaw, who knows) in the game is NOT cheating IMO. Player vs. Developer has been in MMOs forever.
    Cheating is using a speed hack, or using cheat engine etc. It is not using existing game mechanics. Using existing game mechanics shows a deep knowledge of the game.
    I am now pretty convinced they are just using super speed to desync the game and avoid being pulled by DC. If you run out of the area fast enough, the game incorrectly designates who should get hit based on who is in the 8m area. Thus it will not pull them even though it appears they were in the pull radius.

    I don't want to get back into the tedious discussion of whether 40 or 50 disorganized pugs should or shouldnt be able to kill 12 people in a good ball group.

    You'll have to forgive me that I interpreted your comment as I did since you went out of the way to let all of us just who these players are and flat out stated they were intentionally avoiding the legal mechanics of the game where as none of you EP were, not to mentioning these people were moving abnormally fast.

    I still feel bad because you are convinced that somehow those players are playing by different rules. If you really believe that, I'm not sure why you would subject yourself to putting yourself consistently in such a situation, and would offer the same advice: find another game in which you do not feel your opponents can ... exploit ... things that enable them to play by a different ruleset than you can.

  • NordSwordnBoard
    NordSwordnBoard
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    ✭✭✭
    So if everybody pops Race against time, at about the same time, they have immunity to the pull and are fast enough to escape the circle as well? That's kind of having two escape methods in one skill ;)
    Fear is the Mindkiller
  • ResidentContrarian
    ResidentContrarian
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    Tell ZOS to buff siege, problem solved.

    Though, two cold stone and one or two players brave enough to temporarily stop them can easily put an end to ball groups. In fact, it's so effective that ballgroups turn around once you've done it enough times to them or leave keep ...
  • PhoenixGrey
    PhoenixGrey
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    KingzZVI wrote: »
    Ballgroups are made up of 12 good players who work on there strategies to succeed and shouldnt be nerfed or have there builds constantly nerfed cause people are upset they dying. Just my thoughts


    Ball groups are made up of 12 good players who use strategies to succeed. This is truly enlightening :D
  • divnyi
    divnyi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    So if everybody pops Race against time, at about the same time, they have immunity to the pull and are fast enough to escape the circle as well? That's kind of having two escape methods in one skill ;)

    That's immunity to snares and roots, pull is stun. Won't work.
  • Greasytengu
    Greasytengu
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    divnyi wrote: »
    So if everybody pops Race against time, at about the same time, they have immunity to the pull and are fast enough to escape the circle as well? That's kind of having two escape methods in one skill ;)

    That's immunity to snares and roots, pull is stun. Won't work.

    Yeah pulls and stuns are not effected by any ability or set bonus that says "grants immunity to snares and immobilizations" Though it can still help you get out of a DC circle by keeping other common CCs off you like bombard.

    I found getting out of DC was easier when wearing Snowtreaders then when I was wearing Ring of the Wild Hunt. Still get that issue where you stand around unable to move, roll, use skills/items or break free though.
    " I nEeD HeAlInG!!! "
  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    As of right now, dark convergence will still be very strong against large groups. It just won't double yank people and it'll do less damage against smaller groups and solos.
    I drink and I stream things.
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