Critical damage limit - why?

divnyi

One of the U32 changes is introducing cap for critical damage.

Right now, crits are PvE meta. This is true.
But what's also true, is that meta sets give critical chance, not critical damage.
All the crit damage sources can be gained from race, skills and group buff ultimates.

A patch ago you changed medium armor to provide critical damage instead of critical chance.
Stam is already weak in PvE, introducing crit damage cap might outright kill it.

I'm afraid this change is not very well-thought.

Parasaurolophus

I don't mind if they increase the power of other builds. But it looks like ZoS will just reduce the effectiveness of crit damage.

RandomKodiak

We don't know what the crit damage cap will be til Monday, think I'll wait til then to decide. That being said if it's not too stupid low being in medium armor and not having to slot barbed trap will be a blessing for some builds as it will free up a slot for a heal, or another better damage ability. If the cap is too low yes it will be a bad change but if not then since stam can get to damage soft cap easier might balance things out a bit more.

Amottica

I understand and respect OP’s concerns but I think we need to wait and see what drops on the PTS.

VaranisArano

They said it was because of power creep, particularly affecting PVE.

Specifically: "In relation to this, we’re also aiming our sights on reigning in some of the power creep that’s been coming into the game as of late, particularly affecting PvE. The dominance of Critical hits in ESO is by no means new, and despite the reduction to the overall sourcing of it, we’re still seeing it win out by a significant margin when compared to other stats."

It's also true that ZOS has tended to nerf things when they feel like players are building too much for that one thing - well, everyone's been building for crit for a while. So I can't say I'm surprised that it was up on the chopping board.


Now, I do think there's some caveats to that. Primarily, that power creep is disproportionate. Top-level groups tend to benefit more from power creep and get nerfed less than mid-tier groups, as odd as that sounds, because the top-level groups have experience to fall back on and typically had more margin for error in content anyway. Mid-level progression groups, meanwhile, have a smaller margin for error in the content they are attempting, and so tend to get hit hardest by nerfs to their current level of power.

Shantu

Why, indeed. Broad changes like this, targeted toward high end players, ends up being disappointing to, and negating the enthusiasm of, far more players. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

trackdemon5512

Crit Cap was a long time coming. Too many players building to blast through PVE ignoring mechanics but at the same time a clear divide between players able to light attack weave and max out damage far beyond what most can.

They tried to bring Crit damage down before but it ended up hurting the players that didn’t hit as hard more than the apex ones.

So now, like Final Fantasy games, expect to see that “99,999” type hit over and over. It slows down battles to an acceptable speed to allow for mechanic play while allowing all groups to potentially hit a max damage threshold.

It also allows for better development of PVE content. Rather than building difficult mechanics and one shots you can focus on timing, synergized bursts, and analysis of phases.

Ratzkifal

It all depends on where the cap ends up being. It might mean that stam groups can run without warhorn, which wouldn't be a damage boost relative to now, but within the new meta it might be a lot more viable compared to what mag groups have going on then. Emphasis on "might".

Carbohydrate

I think it'll be capped at either 175% or 150%. It'll be a damage loss for sure but proc sets critting should make up most of the difference.

divnyi

Ratzkifal wrote: »

It all depends on where the cap ends up being. It might mean that stam groups can run without warhorn, which wouldn't be a damage boost relative to now, but within the new meta it might be a lot more viable compared to what mag groups have going on then. Emphasis on "might".

Allow me to disagree. If stam would hit the cap without horn, then mag would hit the cap with horn, and have higher crit chance.

They didn't write anywhere they are gonna nerf crit chance, this change, as it is, will just make everyone go for max crit chance, ignoring critdamage sets.

Carbohydrate

Ratzkifal wrote: »

It all depends on where the cap ends up being. It might mean that stam groups can run without warhorn, which wouldn't be a damage boost relative to now, but within the new meta it might be a lot more viable compared to what mag groups have going on then. Emphasis on "might".

Warhorn won't be ignored, as it still gives less valuable max stam and mag for stam dps, but more valuable max mag/stam for mag dps and supports. Things that might be ignored due to cap would be 1 or more of Elemental Catalyst, backstabber, khajiit, brittle, fighting finesse, and kilt (depending on what the cap is).

ResidentContrarian

Probably because other changes without a cap on it would cause broken builds to appear, and to target those "off-meta" NBs that are running low crit and all crit damage + defense in PvP (far more effective and broken than players think).

Carbohydrate

divnyi wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

It all depends on where the cap ends up being. It might mean that stam groups can run without warhorn, which wouldn't be a damage boost relative to now, but within the new meta it might be a lot more viable compared to what mag groups have going on then. Emphasis on "might".

Allow me to disagree. If stam would hit the cap without horn, then mag would hit the cap with horn, and have higher crit chance.

Not necessarily, as stam gets more crit with daggers, as much crit with a bow (equivalent to 6 light armor), less crit but more crit damage with a battleaxe, or more weapon damage with a greatsword.

Grandchamp1989

Playing cat and mouse with the meta is what, for me personly, frustrate me the most with the game.

DOT meta
Proc meta
Crit Meta
Back to Proc meta with certain rules and caps

I don't know, I hope it isn't too drastic the changes.. But the extreme meta shifting is tearing into my joy of the game, I must admit.

divnyi

Carbohydrate wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

It all depends on where the cap ends up being. It might mean that stam groups can run without warhorn, which wouldn't be a damage boost relative to now, but within the new meta it might be a lot more viable compared to what mag groups have going on then. Emphasis on "might".

Allow me to disagree. If stam would hit the cap without horn, then mag would hit the cap with horn, and have higher crit chance.

Not necessarily, as stam gets more crit with daggers, as much crit with a bow (equivalent to 6 light armor), less crit but more crit damage with a battleaxe, or more weapon damage with a greatsword.

Magica can use daggers too.

DarkPicture

lower dmg = harder content PVE so its good

As Rich said, cap is rly high, he had 104% and he said he isnt close to cap.

Ippokrates

Well, if you will reach cap, you can use Malacath and go further... ^^

Wing

well well well, full circle, almost like this game used to have soft caps. . .

msetten

I just hope that they show the cap clearly in the interface or at least show it when your build has reached it. And also any other caps that are already there. I always have to lookup what the penetration caps are. And I am still not sure it there is a speed cap or not (but since speed display is bugged in PS4/PS5 (at least for me), even knowing the speed cap wouldn't help me).

Vaoh

DarkPicture wrote: »

lower dmg = harder content PVE so its good

As Rich said, cap is rly high, he had 104% and he said he isnt close to cap.

PvE solo and 4-man content will become easier though lol. Gear bonus hybridization and proc sets critting are big buffs.

The cap to crit damage only affects trials where we have support buff sets. Considering zero console groups have achieved Planesbreaker....idk. ZOS gave us a trial where the last boss has 238mil Health on hard mode. Trial damage nerfs don’t sound fun.

But then again Rele might become so strong it’ll be BiS on all dps. It’s all too early to say so we’ll see.

DestroyerPewnack

I don't think we need to wait for anything. The question is, who asked for this change? Why does zos insist on fixing things that aren't broken (and BREAK them in the process,) instead of focusing on fixing things we've been asking for, for years?

PvP lag has been with us for so long now, we're practically on our knees, begging for it to end. Why not focus all their manpower on that?

The dressing room update was also one that console players have been asking for, for years, and they couldn't even make it useful for when it actually is needed.

I'm sorry, I know our criticism is supposed to be constructive, but at some point players will realise constructive criticism isn't getting them anywhere, and that the devs are clowns.

Why not hire some of the content creators, and let them dictate (not suggest; dictate) to the devs how the game should move forward? I disagree with half of them, but at least the changes they propose aren't as radical and ridiculous as what we've been getting, these last few patches.

kalimar44

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

I don't think we need to wait for anything. The question is, who asked for this change? Why does zos insist on fixing things that aren't broken (and BREAK them in the process,) instead of focusing on fixing things we've been asking for, for years?

PvP lag has been with us for so long now, we're practically on our knees, begging for it to end. Why not focus all their manpower on that?

The dressing room update was also one that console players have been asking for, for years, and they couldn't even make it useful for when it actually is needed.

I'm sorry, I know our criticism is supposed to be constructive, but at some point players will realise constructive criticism isn't getting them anywhere, and that the devs are clowns.

Why not hire some of the content creators, and let them dictate (not suggest; dictate) to the devs how the game should move forward? I disagree with half of them, but at least the changes they propose aren't as radical and ridiculous as what we've been getting, these last few patches.

Well said.

Finedaible

I think it's kind of ironic they introduced so many critical damage/healing modifiers that it now became meta, so now they are capping the meta they created. Like wtf, make up your damned minds. If they didn't want crit damage modifiers to be that powerful, then why even make those Champion Point nodes or the changes to medium armor passives in the first place?

We are now at a point where the game is requiring arbitrary rules to balance itself, and that is never going to be user or beginner-friendly. It's ironic how soft caps are returning and proc sets will be able to crit again... Whether that's a good thing or not remains to be seen, but this lack of foresight coupled with balancing the game against high-end trial groups is beyond annoying.

Xebov

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

I don't think we need to wait for anything. The question is, who asked for this change? Why does zos insist on fixing things that aren't broken (and BREAK them in the process,) instead of focusing on fixing things we've been asking for, for years?

Im not so sure if you are aware of that, but dev teams are not a mass of ppl that you can just move around and that can work on any task you can imagine. Dev teams consist out of specialists for specific fields that are only good in these fields. There is not alqways a simple solution available and some tasks can take alot of time to complete and get solutions ready to be shipped.

For that particular change the problem is that the community doesnt know what it wants. Players want more build diversity, but complain if changes are made to push the game into this direction. Players complain when new sets are added but they are not useful because better options exist. If they are better then they complain that everything becomes to easy and they want harder content. No matter into what direction stuff is developed the complaint train is already waiting. Most of the "constructive" feedback in the forum is just a collection of "I dont want my playstyle to be negatively effected".

beer781993

R.I.P Khajit.

I bet their passive will be close to useless with that cap.

Race change for all toons. Way to make 💰

mzprx

Ippokrates wrote: »

Well, if you will reach cap, you can use Malacath and go further... ^^

this is actually what i was thinking. you get close to or over the cap? use Malacath and you're good to go. unfortunately you can't use the Kilt. but if you are a Khajiit it could be a slightly better option to use Malacath instead of the Kilt. we'll see on Monday..

FrancisCrawford

I'll be annoyed if this change devalues Brittle, making it a nerf to frost staves.

Elsonso

beer781993 wrote: »

R.I.P Khajit.

I bet their passive will be close to useless with that cap.

Race change for all toons. Way to make 💰

We won't know until PTS, but my guess is that Feline Ambush will remain as part of a lot of builds.

Finedaible

It is my hope that Khajiiti critical passive will allow them to invest into other areas to make up for their lack of weapon/spell bonuses with this critical modifier cap. However that will largely depend on where they place the cap and whether or not there will be wasted cp points, or if there are wasted opportunity costs by using one cp perk vs another.

divnyi

DarkPicture wrote: »

lower dmg = harder content PVE so its good

But the damage won't be lower, people will just drop stam toons.

msetten wrote: »

I just hope that they show the cap clearly in the interface or at least show it when your build has reached it. And also any other caps that are already there. I always have to lookup what the penetration caps are. And I am still not sure it there is a speed cap or not (but since speed display is bugged in PS4/PS5 (at least for me), even knowing the speed cap wouldn't help me).

Basic running speed is 100%, cap is 200%. Sprint is +40% (without armor passives).

Tannus15

divnyi wrote: »

One of the U32 changes is introducing cap for critical damage.

Right now, crits are PvE meta. This is true.
But what's also true, is that meta sets give critical chance, not critical damage.
All the crit damage sources can be gained from race, skills and group buff ultimates.

A patch ago you changed medium armor to provide critical damage instead of critical chance.
Stam is already weak in PvE, introducing crit damage cap might outright kill it.

I'm afraid this change is not very well-thought.

the way crit % and crit damage % work together is why.

basically the way the math works is that it's only worth sacrificing damage for crit chance if you have a crit damage multiplier to make up the difference.

with the change their making there will be a "peak" crit chance where stacking more will give you less return, you're better off stacking into spell / weapon damage to increase the base damage.
depending on where they put the crit damage % is where that crit chance will be. I'm guessing 120% or so which gives up a target crit of 64% crit chance.

the really cool thing about this is that there are so many crit damage sources that you can tailor your build for it. You're a khajiit? awesome, you no longer have to worry about minor force. just drop it from your build entirely. guild is running brittle and EC? major force just became redundant so your supports can run other ults.

this is the really key part : on live right now you want as much crit and crit damage as you can get. This will no longer be true next patch.

it's been pretty clear for a while now that ZoS thought the best way to balance PvE vs PvP was to buff PvE crit since PvP builds had a direct counter to crit. That is coming to an end. Crit is coming back to PvP and PvE is getting pushed back into using other stats.