The True Issue with PVP

NagualV

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

if a player gets deleted on a gank, it's the player's fault for running an bad or inefficient build.

Devs can't save bad players from losing. Bad players seek excuses: I was out-leveled, I was ganked, I was zerged, lag only effected me, etc., etc. That's the "problem" in developing a PvP MMO.

I agree with this. Some people cant accept the fact it's their fault. That will just simply never change.

I didnt play NW closed beta, but I did play open beta......in the game/forums, the same thing cropped up - pve oriented mmo'ers want their gear/level to matter most(if I'm a higher level then you, I should stomp you no matter your skill level). Pvp oriented players want skill to matter(a highly skilled level 10 should be able to beat a highly geared level 60)

In the open beta that I played(due to the scaling changes made in between closed and open), a highly skilled player had no chance against anyone 10-15 levels above them. In closed beta it was the opposite, the "level/gear matters" people got their egos bruised when lower level high skilled players stomped them.

Because it's an mmo, sure, progression matters and so you cant make crafting/gathering/leveling pointless by scaling. But when everyone hits level 60, and the "gear/level matters" people start getting destroyed by skill players, they will fully acknowledge that they are not as skilled as they thought, and they will be humble and then willing to learn from their mistakes and work towards developing their skill, and when they reach their full potential, and still get beat, will acknowledge that some people are just better players........................................

Or,.....they will resort to complaining about gear, ganking, toxic pvp players.......

fred4

Merforum wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

BTW just because you and I and many others after playing for MANY hours in PVP have figured out how to compete against gankers, doesn't mean it isn't the most toxic playstyle ever in any game and hasn't destroyed PVP for the VAST majority of people who have ever tried it. It would be like, if in every dungeon there was an invisible boss that would just 1 shot everyone over and over, how long would you play the game. But as a company how many thousands of people have quit game because of gankers, compare to how many stayed with game because they could gank people, that is the question.

This absolutely cuts both ways. I became a nightblade main, because I frequently play alone and being a nightblade allowed me to avoid fights and bring my Tel Var home. Whenever someone asks what to do as a new player, one of the options I give them is being a sniper. Not that that works especially well these days, but it has been an option for inexperienced players to get some early kills.

Exactly what I mean. Everyone has an initial shock by getting ganked and either hate it and just leave or they decide to do it themselves which continues the vicious cycle. But ZOS NEVER should have let this become so popular, they should have only let it be super niche or not have it.

They have nerfed nightblade power quite a bit over the years. Stamblades have a habit of creeping back up in power whenever ZOS change anything. Last patch was IMO a little too extreme, because damage was very high in general. This, however, plays into what another person said. When a new player complains about being "ganked", do they even refer to nightblade gankers specifically or to TTK being really short (from any class) or to a nightblade attacking them from stealth, even while being ineffectual? Or are they simply annoyed by nightblade's engage / disengage / cloak / shade playstyle?

Personally everyone I introduced to the game has quit and never come back mainly because they say the PVP is so bad for allowing this (and other things)

It's not for everyone. I will continue to maintain, however, that this is a good game when the combat works and that a high skill ceiling is a good thing for longevity, at least in my case.

I've picked up new players numerous times in PvE zone chat. For example, if I'm doing Skyreach for some reason, I usually advertise free runs in zone chat or I pick up a random below 50 player skulking around the entrance. Some of these intensely level their characters for a week. Most want to do PvE. Most don't stay and subsequently linger at the bottom of my friend list. I don't think players leaving is uniquely due to PvP.

and even though I stayed mostly for PVE, I hate this too.

Well, I like it. When you bring personal preference into the argument, we're simply at a stalemate here.

fred4

rbfrgsp wrote: »

People now use the word "gank" to mean "killed me fast". Stop doing that please.

Yeah, I have a suspicion that's how new players use the term. TTK in this game is low. New World appears to have much longer TTK, at least in the earlier closed Beta. Perhaps that makes it new player friendly. On the other hand New World has significantly worse / less responsive healing as well. That is indeed the only way you can achieve lower TTK, while still having a game where you can kill people. Healing (not health) and damage must be in balance. In New World I wonder whether it is. It appears as though the one weapon that improves healing, the life staff, is pretty OP for PvP in that game. I have not played New World, but I have historically been in fights, in ESO, where I was defiled or simply dotted up so hard on a class without purge that I felt doomed to die. If you have longer TTK, but you have no means or you don't know any means to recover from low health, that does not feel much better than being insta-killed in my experience. PvP is tough, because players are smarter and less predictable than NPCs. PvE is simply a much more casual experience until you get to vet trials / arenas. You simply can't get around that. I think you can be equally stumped on your first time doing vMA as you can as a beginner in PvP.

Andre_Noir

Thannazzar wrote: »

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

00:33 he said that he is an PVE-crab. And then start to judge how a PVP has to work lol
Also there no "ganking" in PVP zones if they are separated form open world - ESO's case

Noted, the salient point (if you watched the entire vid) was around the competition vs bullying dynamic, IE do you want to test your skill fighting an opponent or just score a victory by using power of a build to kill them before they can react.

If a ganker achieves their desired outcome they are not actually fighting another player, they may as well just be parsing against a dummy, that's not player vs player combat. Its not matching skill with another player its effectively just trying to overpower them with gear and optimization.

If that's the playstyle you enjoy, all power too you, but when that playstyle leads to:

- new players or PVE'rs not want to participate in PVP and dwindling PVP populations and increased BG queue times or
- Players equiping ultra tanky builds to completely mitigate your playstyle

well

"Im sorry you dont like the monster you have created Dr Frankenstein".

Sorry, but the whole story in terms of ESO is just a big BS.
If we talk about NB then you should get a simple thing: the only one problematic aspect there is an execute that comes even not from class skill kit but from weapon. That's actually makes the whole difference between mNB and sNB where the first one in almost trash position as a fighter and the second one is just toxic.
It's a whole stand alone story why if ZOS so care about "TTK" the bunch of stamina executes is allowed in PVP at all.

Next. You can't rly compare a "gank" and a dummy parse since it's yor choice that among all sets you chose to wear 3 dmg sets and being below 25k hp. Just from my experience 25k+ hp with at least some armor makes anyone a hard target for ganker. And I write this from class that I play the most - mNB so everyone with builtin heal should have an easy time with those guys.
And about real problem that you call a Frankenstein's creature: cheap def and heal under the sauce of most skilled gameplay ever: holding mouse right button. It's even more funny because mist forms already got gutted exactly becasue of the gameplay: put hot, use mist and soak tons of damage while healing back. The differences there: mist draw magicka, requires vamp with all drawbacks and doesn't allow use any skills in process.
Only "balanced" executes on stamina weapons (reminder: AoE) actually holds meta from turning it to festa of healbots with a shields. But it's already a meta for shiny one-button class in ESO

Ezorus

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

More like perfect example of why Cyrodiil sucks and why Non-CP and Battle grounds are best and most balanced.

Building a tank to be chased around a tower by 10 other players is boring AF. I'd rather kill someone in seconds and be killed quickly than draw out a fight

Joy_Division

Merforum wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

The video pigeonholes a lot of arguments, which is to be expected because the author identifies themselves as a PvE player.

How is it absurd that in PvP, power is somehow unfair and antithetical to competition but if PvE, that very same power is somehow perfectly fine to enable players to engage in the "end game" component. Why cant I join your PvE rockgrove hardmode group on my level 22 character? I swear I'm a highly skilled PvE player. Oh, wait, because there is the expectation and realization that the game is balanced once players reach max level.

There are going to be people in New World who are maxed to level 60 in mere days. And then the whole level scaling "argument" will become irrelevant. Quickly nobody will be playing chess without their queen. It was only a point of contention in the Beta because hardly anyone was level 60 and their ego made excuses that I only lost because my opponent was a higher level.

As far as people feeling entitled to power, it's not as simple as "I've been playing longer than you so I deserve an advantage." If a game is going to have a sophisticated and meaningful crafting system like New World that almost like a survival game, then in order for the crafting system to fulfill its function and have meaning to payers wo have invested so much time in using it, then it has to translate to power otherwise it's worthless if any random can log on and have gear equal to what I've invested time in crafting. I don;t think I deserve power simply because I am a higher level; I do think it's not unreasonable to expect a crafting system to provide tangible benefits for players who invest in it, which is quite a different thing that time played.

Ganking is another subject entirely and it's not surprising that a self proclaimed PvE player finds the playstyle so frustrating. I don;t like getting ganked either BUT as long as the devs are competent and don;t make ganking an auto-win in which the gankee is basically screwed, then it's merely annoying rather than unfair. In ESO's beginning with busted camo-hunter and 50 ultimate Incap that always stunned, it was basically an auto-win for people who were good at it. That was terrible. but it's long been the case in which ganking got nerfed so if a player gets deleted on a gank, it's the player's fault for running an bad or inefficient build.

Devs can't save bad players from losing. Bad players seek excuses: I was out-leveled, I was ganked, I was zerged, lag only effected me, etc., etc. That's the "problem" in developing a PvP MMO.

I think you might be falling into the false argument that 'since there are totally toxic people in high end trial that won't let just anyone play, it is a OK to have totally toxic people in PVP with broken build and huge power/skill gap, so everything is a wash'. NO the vast majority of players and seemingly the dude in the video, is pointing to ALL the bullying as NOT being good for any game.

BTW just because you and I and many others after playing for MANY hours in PVP have figured out how to compete against gankers, doesn't mean it isn't the most toxic playstyle ever in any game and hasn't destroyed PVP for the VAST majority of people who have ever tried it. It would be like, if in every dungeon there was an invisible boss that would just 1 shot everyone over and over, how long would you play the game. But as a company how many thousands of people have quit game because of gankers, compare to how many stayed with game because they could gank people, that is the question.

No. You are the one equating running an good build and engaging in a universally accepted attack in every fantasy game I have ever played with somehow being a "toxic" player. If you don;t like getting ganked, then don;t play PvP. Period. How in the world are you going to police PvP players such that they can never attack an enemy player who is unaware of their presence or just bad? Are you going to ban me because there is an enemy player sitting on an objective and I didn't loudly and publicly announce my intention of attacking them? This isn;t meant to be mean or elitist, but ganking just comes with territory in PvP. It is unavoidable, it would be unenforceable to even try to legislate against it, so what the devs need to do is ensure there are no bugs that make it a one shot for people who know what they are doing. As much as ZOs has made too many wrong decisions in the past, this is one aspect of the game they did get right.

Yes, I did figure out after many hours in PvP how to deal with gankers because I am not a quitter and I resolved to get better at the game rather than asking for the company to hire a dozen gamemasters to ensure that classes designed around the hit and run or sheath playstyle wouldn't be forced to play like Dragonknights. Those thousands of people who left PvP because of ganking left because PvP just isn;t their thing. You think they would have hung around with 45K+ health warden tanks who deal just as much damage and would be neigh invincible to these same players? No way. They obviously do not like feeling powerless against other players. Again this is the nature of PvP. A highly skilled player will make someone inexperienced feel powerless. It happens every single night in no CP PvP where all the supposed advantages of play time are taken away. That's not going to change.

Urzigurumash

If we should be more specific with our language about what counts as "gank", can we stop calling highly mobile, Stam regen stacking, rock and tower dancers "tanks"?

Andre_Noir

Ezorus wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

More like perfect example of why Cyrodiil sucks and why Non-CP and Battle grounds are best and most balanced.

Building a tank to be chased around a tower by 10 other players is boring AF. I'd rather kill someone in seconds and be killed quickly than draw out a fight

Yeah for sure. All potent dmg sets are forbidden but Sithis, Pariah and Orgunm are allowed. Is it what makes nocp so balanced ?

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If we should be more specific with our language about what counts as "gank", can we stop calling highly mobile, Stam regen stacking, rock and tower dancers "tanks"?

We can stop calling them tanks when they stop having 35k+ hp and sword n board. Sword n board + heavy armor + 30khp=tank. I have been playing long enough to remember when the average was 25khp and heavy armor made you hit like a wet noodle. We have been in tank meta for so long that no one realizes its all tanks now.

Urzigurumash

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If we should be more specific with our language about what counts as "gank", can we stop calling highly mobile, Stam regen stacking, rock and tower dancers "tanks"?

We can stop calling them tanks when they stop having 35k+ hp and sword n board. Sword n board + heavy armor + 30khp=tank. I have been playing long enough to remember when the average was 25khp and heavy armor made you hit like a wet noodle. We have been in tank meta for so long that no one realizes its all tanks now.

Yeah and Gankers had under 20k HP, no? Also what was average Weapon Damage back then compared to now? Not everybody who kills you fast is a gank, not everybody who you can't kill fast is a tank. It's confusing because a lot of times people are mostly complaining about mobility, more than mitigation. You know what else there wasn't back then? As much CC immunity. Spamming Talons on a breach did something. So in a way it's especially confusing because "true tanks" have became less useful as CC immunity increased.

How about this random one, this is from Clockwork City: "Reduced the duration of the stun applied to you when you are knocked off your mount to 2 seconds from 3 seconds, and you will now gain crowd control immunity after this stun expires."

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If we should be more specific with our language about what counts as "gank", can we stop calling highly mobile, Stam regen stacking, rock and tower dancers "tanks"?

We can stop calling them tanks when they stop having 35k+ hp and sword n board. Sword n board + heavy armor + 30khp=tank. I have been playing long enough to remember when the average was 25khp and heavy armor made you hit like a wet noodle. We have been in tank meta for so long that no one realizes its all tanks now.

Yeah and Gankers had under 20k HP, no? Also what was average Weapon Damage back then compared to now? Not everybody who kills you fast is a gank, not everybody who you can't kill fast is a tank. It's confusing because a lot of times people are mostly complaining about mobility, more than mitigation. You know what else there wasn't back then? As much CC immunity. Spamming Talons on a breach did something. So in a way it's especially confusing because "true tanks" have became less useful as CC immunity increased.

How about this random one, this is from Clockwork City: "Reduced the duration of the stun applied to you when you are knocked off your mount to 2 seconds from 3 seconds, and you will now gain crowd control immunity after this stun expires."

Can't knock anyone off their fully upgraded mounts anymore anyways. Honestly gankers have had 20-25k hp for a long time now. Depends on if your race gives hp or the sets you are wearing. Can dip below 20k without food, but its unwise to pvp without a food buff. Probably shouldn't gain immunity to stuns from immobilizing effects or vice versa. Probably why they can sustain for so long in heavy armor, they are barely getting cc'ed.

At least we have Hrothgar's now to somewhat punish them. Got about 1000 stealth counters and 1 50% nerfed tank counter. How would you feel about a buffed Knight slayer set + hrothgar being able to 2 GCD a tank? Passive defense being nullified by passive offence seems fair to me and its two sets meant for killing them. Cause right now where we are at you can't just stack more offensive stats or wear sets to counter tanks. You can however easily turtle up to counter burst damage and drink a potion to remove stealth from the game. Current Knight slayer would require your target to have 100khp to deal even 8k damage, lmao. Its like they didn't consider that someone with 100k hp would laugh at taking only 8k damage. Buff that *** to 16-20% of max health and let the max damage go up to 20k. It would then hit as hard as hrothgar on people that have 30k hp and I think that is pretty fair considering it requires a fully charged heavy.

Urzigurumash

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If we should be more specific with our language about what counts as "gank", can we stop calling highly mobile, Stam regen stacking, rock and tower dancers "tanks"?

We can stop calling them tanks when they stop having 35k+ hp and sword n board. Sword n board + heavy armor + 30khp=tank. I have been playing long enough to remember when the average was 25khp and heavy armor made you hit like a wet noodle. We have been in tank meta for so long that no one realizes its all tanks now.

Yeah and Gankers had under 20k HP, no? Also what was average Weapon Damage back then compared to now? Not everybody who kills you fast is a gank, not everybody who you can't kill fast is a tank. It's confusing because a lot of times people are mostly complaining about mobility, more than mitigation. You know what else there wasn't back then? As much CC immunity. Spamming Talons on a breach did something. So in a way it's especially confusing because "true tanks" have became less useful as CC immunity increased.

How about this random one, this is from Clockwork City: "Reduced the duration of the stun applied to you when you are knocked off your mount to 2 seconds from 3 seconds, and you will now gain crowd control immunity after this stun expires."

Can't knock anyone off their fully upgraded mounts anymore anyways. Honestly gankers have had 20-25k hp for a long time now. Depends on if your race gives hp or the sets you are wearing. Can dip below 20k without food, but its unwise to pvp without a food buff. Probably shouldn't gain immunity to stuns from immobilizing effects or vice versa. Probably why they can sustain for so long in heavy armor, they are barely getting cc'ed.

At least we have Hrothgar's now to somewhat punish them. Got about 1000 stealth counters and 1 50% nerfed tank counter. How would you feel about a buffed Knight slayer set + hrothgar being able to 2 GCD a tank? Passive defense being nullified by passive offence seems fair to me and its two sets meant for killing them. Cause right now where we are at you can't just stack more offensive stats or wear sets to counter tanks. You can however easily turtle up to counter burst damage and drink a potion to remove stealth from the game. Current Knight slayer would require your target to have 100khp to deal even 8k damage, lmao. Its like they didn't consider that someone with 100k hp would laugh at taking only 8k damage. Buff that *** to 16-20% of max health and let the max damage go up to 20k. It would then hit as hard as hrothgar on people that have 30k hp and I think that is pretty fair considering it requires a fully charged heavy.

I agree Knightslayer needs a buff, I do see it here and there though. My point was really that it's inaccurate to describe Kite until Ult as Tank, Tank is Turtle until Ult, it's different. Call em acrobats or something because I don't think anybody is really complaining about Glorgorloch builds.

Syrusthevirus187

Cloak is the problem

Merforum

Joy_Division wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

The video pigeonholes a lot of arguments, which is to be expected because the author identifies themselves as a PvE player.

How is it absurd that in PvP, power is somehow unfair and antithetical to competition but if PvE, that very same power is somehow perfectly fine to enable players to engage in the "end game" component. Why cant I join your PvE rockgrove hardmode group on my level 22 character? I swear I'm a highly skilled PvE player. Oh, wait, because there is the expectation and realization that the game is balanced once players reach max level.

There are going to be people in New World who are maxed to level 60 in mere days. And then the whole level scaling "argument" will become irrelevant. Quickly nobody will be playing chess without their queen. It was only a point of contention in the Beta because hardly anyone was level 60 and their ego made excuses that I only lost because my opponent was a higher level.

As far as people feeling entitled to power, it's not as simple as "I've been playing longer than you so I deserve an advantage." If a game is going to have a sophisticated and meaningful crafting system like New World that almost like a survival game, then in order for the crafting system to fulfill its function and have meaning to payers wo have invested so much time in using it, then it has to translate to power otherwise it's worthless if any random can log on and have gear equal to what I've invested time in crafting. I don;t think I deserve power simply because I am a higher level; I do think it's not unreasonable to expect a crafting system to provide tangible benefits for players who invest in it, which is quite a different thing that time played.

Ganking is another subject entirely and it's not surprising that a self proclaimed PvE player finds the playstyle so frustrating. I don;t like getting ganked either BUT as long as the devs are competent and don;t make ganking an auto-win in which the gankee is basically screwed, then it's merely annoying rather than unfair. In ESO's beginning with busted camo-hunter and 50 ultimate Incap that always stunned, it was basically an auto-win for people who were good at it. That was terrible. but it's long been the case in which ganking got nerfed so if a player gets deleted on a gank, it's the player's fault for running an bad or inefficient build.

Devs can't save bad players from losing. Bad players seek excuses: I was out-leveled, I was ganked, I was zerged, lag only effected me, etc., etc. That's the "problem" in developing a PvP MMO.

I think you might be falling into the false argument that 'since there are totally toxic people in high end trial that won't let just anyone play, it is a OK to have totally toxic people in PVP with broken build and huge power/skill gap, so everything is a wash'. NO the vast majority of players and seemingly the dude in the video, is pointing to ALL the bullying as NOT being good for any game.

BTW just because you and I and many others after playing for MANY hours in PVP have figured out how to compete against gankers, doesn't mean it isn't the most toxic playstyle ever in any game and hasn't destroyed PVP for the VAST majority of people who have ever tried it. It would be like, if in every dungeon there was an invisible boss that would just 1 shot everyone over and over, how long would you play the game. But as a company how many thousands of people have quit game because of gankers, compare to how many stayed with game because they could gank people, that is the question.

No. You are the one equating running an good build and engaging in a universally accepted attack in every fantasy game I have ever played with somehow being a "toxic" player. If you don;t like getting ganked, then don;t play PvP. Period. How in the world are you going to police PvP players such that they can never attack an enemy player who is unaware of their presence or just bad? Are you going to ban me because there is an enemy player sitting on an objective and I didn't loudly and publicly announce my intention of attacking them? This isn;t meant to be mean or elitist, but ganking just comes with territory in PvP. It is unavoidable, it would be unenforceable to even try to legislate against it, so what the devs need to do is ensure there are no bugs that make it a one shot for people who know what they are doing. As much as ZOs has made too many wrong decisions in the past, this is one aspect of the game they did get right.

Yes, I did figure out after many hours in PvP how to deal with gankers because I am not a quitter and I resolved to get better at the game rather than asking for the company to hire a dozen gamemasters to ensure that classes designed around the hit and run or sheath playstyle wouldn't be forced to play like Dragonknights. Those thousands of people who left PvP because of ganking left because PvP just isn;t their thing. You think they would have hung around with 45K+ health warden tanks who deal just as much damage and would be neigh invincible to these same players? No way. They obviously do not like feeling powerless against other players. Again this is the nature of PvP. A highly skilled player will make someone inexperienced feel powerless. It happens every single night in no CP PvP where all the supposed advantages of play time are taken away. That's not going to change.

I have to disagree on both counts, ganking isn't some absolutely vital aspect of any PVP that games can't do without. And it is NOT that hard to have measures in place to make it not so obscene. For instance, ZOS is very proud of the fact that ANYONE can start a character and in a short period of time be running dungeons with friends and doing most content, it is not a game were you literally ONLY can do stuff when you level/gear up to max. HOW does it do this, at below level 50, they give much higher stats and benefits to make it easier. So I can be CP 2000 and still play with a friend who just started and is level 25.

But you may ask, 'yeah but how would you do that in PVP'. Very simple, ideally get rid of ganking or make is super hard and limited OR if you don't want to fix it on the ganker side you can make it easier on the GANKIE side. For instance, how about when you first enter PVP zone you get higher stats just like >50 and/or you can auto detect inviso, more damage, better healing etc., then as you level up alliance ranks or kill count or whatever measure you want to use to track PVP ability, you start to lose those bonuses. ZOS just throws out sets that everyone can use and makes it worse. BTW No-CP does not help beginners hardly at all.

This way, experienced players could still kill beginners a lot, just like bosses can kill them but ZOS can take a lot of the frustration/hopelessness out of it for beginners. Also another different idea is ZOS could track something like alliance rank/bodycount or whatever and allow the TOP 25% of PVPers to have VET PVP instances. Then the lower 75% of casual PVP would just be in the low end PVP instances. BTW ESO is my first PVP but I stuck it out cuz I didn't know any better. But the people who 'quit' mostly were PVPers in other games and 100% quit because how bad gankers and combat is NOT because they are quitters or not PVPers.

BTW to another poster if I say GANK I mean someone killing someone with little or no counter play, like from stealth. The low TTK isn't necessarily a gank because someone can meet you face to face and kill you fast, that is a separate problem, less bad but also bad. But overall the damage should be dialed way back for sure, but also self healing is too high. That discussion is important but totally separate from alienating beginners by allowing gankers to be too powerful.

Amottica

.

Merforum wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

The video pigeonholes a lot of arguments, which is to be expected because the author identifies themselves as a PvE player.

How is it absurd that in PvP, power is somehow unfair and antithetical to competition but if PvE, that very same power is somehow perfectly fine to enable players to engage in the "end game" component. Why cant I join your PvE rockgrove hardmode group on my level 22 character? I swear I'm a highly skilled PvE player. Oh, wait, because there is the expectation and realization that the game is balanced once players reach max level.

There are going to be people in New World who are maxed to level 60 in mere days. And then the whole level scaling "argument" will become irrelevant. Quickly nobody will be playing chess without their queen. It was only a point of contention in the Beta because hardly anyone was level 60 and their ego made excuses that I only lost because my opponent was a higher level.

As far as people feeling entitled to power, it's not as simple as "I've been playing longer than you so I deserve an advantage." If a game is going to have a sophisticated and meaningful crafting system like New World that almost like a survival game, then in order for the crafting system to fulfill its function and have meaning to payers wo have invested so much time in using it, then it has to translate to power otherwise it's worthless if any random can log on and have gear equal to what I've invested time in crafting. I don;t think I deserve power simply because I am a higher level; I do think it's not unreasonable to expect a crafting system to provide tangible benefits for players who invest in it, which is quite a different thing that time played.

Ganking is another subject entirely and it's not surprising that a self proclaimed PvE player finds the playstyle so frustrating. I don;t like getting ganked either BUT as long as the devs are competent and don;t make ganking an auto-win in which the gankee is basically screwed, then it's merely annoying rather than unfair. In ESO's beginning with busted camo-hunter and 50 ultimate Incap that always stunned, it was basically an auto-win for people who were good at it. That was terrible. but it's long been the case in which ganking got nerfed so if a player gets deleted on a gank, it's the player's fault for running an bad or inefficient build.

Devs can't save bad players from losing. Bad players seek excuses: I was out-leveled, I was ganked, I was zerged, lag only effected me, etc., etc. That's the "problem" in developing a PvP MMO.

I think you might be falling into the false argument that 'since there are totally toxic people in high end trial that won't let just anyone play, it is a OK to have totally toxic people in PVP with broken build and huge power/skill gap, so everything is a wash'. NO the vast majority of players and seemingly the dude in the video, is pointing to ALL the bullying as NOT being good for any game.

BTW just because you and I and many others after playing for MANY hours in PVP have figured out how to compete against gankers, doesn't mean it isn't the most toxic playstyle ever in any game and hasn't destroyed PVP for the VAST majority of people who have ever tried it. It would be like, if in every dungeon there was an invisible boss that would just 1 shot everyone over and over, how long would you play the game. But as a company how many thousands of people have quit game because of gankers, compare to how many stayed with game because they could gank people, that is the question.

No. You are the one equating running an good build and engaging in a universally accepted attack in every fantasy game I have ever played with somehow being a "toxic" player. If you don;t like getting ganked, then don;t play PvP. Period. How in the world are you going to police PvP players such that they can never attack an enemy player who is unaware of their presence or just bad? Are you going to ban me because there is an enemy player sitting on an objective and I didn't loudly and publicly announce my intention of attacking them? This isn;t meant to be mean or elitist, but ganking just comes with territory in PvP. It is unavoidable, it would be unenforceable to even try to legislate against it, so what the devs need to do is ensure there are no bugs that make it a one shot for people who know what they are doing. As much as ZOs has made too many wrong decisions in the past, this is one aspect of the game they did get right.

Yes, I did figure out after many hours in PvP how to deal with gankers because I am not a quitter and I resolved to get better at the game rather than asking for the company to hire a dozen gamemasters to ensure that classes designed around the hit and run or sheath playstyle wouldn't be forced to play like Dragonknights. Those thousands of people who left PvP because of ganking left because PvP just isn;t their thing. You think they would have hung around with 45K+ health warden tanks who deal just as much damage and would be neigh invincible to these same players? No way. They obviously do not like feeling powerless against other players. Again this is the nature of PvP. A highly skilled player will make someone inexperienced feel powerless. It happens every single night in no CP PvP where all the supposed advantages of play time are taken away. That's not going to change.

I have to disagree on both counts, ganking isn't some absolutely vital aspect of any PVP that games can't do without.

They did not suggest the ganking was vital but that it is an accepted part of PvP in pretty much every game. They clearly state that as a player new to PvP in a given game gains more experience they will better be able to handle these more experienced players.

I would suggest seeking a decent guild that runs. There are probably a number of guilds that run small group PvP that would be helpful with builds and other advice and fun to run with.

Merforum

Amottica wrote: »

.

Merforum wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

The video pigeonholes a lot of arguments, which is to be expected because the author identifies themselves as a PvE player.

How is it absurd that in PvP, power is somehow unfair and antithetical to competition but if PvE, that very same power is somehow perfectly fine to enable players to engage in the "end game" component. Why cant I join your PvE rockgrove hardmode group on my level 22 character? I swear I'm a highly skilled PvE player. Oh, wait, because there is the expectation and realization that the game is balanced once players reach max level.

There are going to be people in New World who are maxed to level 60 in mere days. And then the whole level scaling "argument" will become irrelevant. Quickly nobody will be playing chess without their queen. It was only a point of contention in the Beta because hardly anyone was level 60 and their ego made excuses that I only lost because my opponent was a higher level.

As far as people feeling entitled to power, it's not as simple as "I've been playing longer than you so I deserve an advantage." If a game is going to have a sophisticated and meaningful crafting system like New World that almost like a survival game, then in order for the crafting system to fulfill its function and have meaning to payers wo have invested so much time in using it, then it has to translate to power otherwise it's worthless if any random can log on and have gear equal to what I've invested time in crafting. I don;t think I deserve power simply because I am a higher level; I do think it's not unreasonable to expect a crafting system to provide tangible benefits for players who invest in it, which is quite a different thing that time played.

Ganking is another subject entirely and it's not surprising that a self proclaimed PvE player finds the playstyle so frustrating. I don;t like getting ganked either BUT as long as the devs are competent and don;t make ganking an auto-win in which the gankee is basically screwed, then it's merely annoying rather than unfair. In ESO's beginning with busted camo-hunter and 50 ultimate Incap that always stunned, it was basically an auto-win for people who were good at it. That was terrible. but it's long been the case in which ganking got nerfed so if a player gets deleted on a gank, it's the player's fault for running an bad or inefficient build.

Devs can't save bad players from losing. Bad players seek excuses: I was out-leveled, I was ganked, I was zerged, lag only effected me, etc., etc. That's the "problem" in developing a PvP MMO.

I think you might be falling into the false argument that 'since there are totally toxic people in high end trial that won't let just anyone play, it is a OK to have totally toxic people in PVP with broken build and huge power/skill gap, so everything is a wash'. NO the vast majority of players and seemingly the dude in the video, is pointing to ALL the bullying as NOT being good for any game.

BTW just because you and I and many others after playing for MANY hours in PVP have figured out how to compete against gankers, doesn't mean it isn't the most toxic playstyle ever in any game and hasn't destroyed PVP for the VAST majority of people who have ever tried it. It would be like, if in every dungeon there was an invisible boss that would just 1 shot everyone over and over, how long would you play the game. But as a company how many thousands of people have quit game because of gankers, compare to how many stayed with game because they could gank people, that is the question.

No. You are the one equating running an good build and engaging in a universally accepted attack in every fantasy game I have ever played with somehow being a "toxic" player. If you don;t like getting ganked, then don;t play PvP. Period. How in the world are you going to police PvP players such that they can never attack an enemy player who is unaware of their presence or just bad? Are you going to ban me because there is an enemy player sitting on an objective and I didn't loudly and publicly announce my intention of attacking them? This isn;t meant to be mean or elitist, but ganking just comes with territory in PvP. It is unavoidable, it would be unenforceable to even try to legislate against it, so what the devs need to do is ensure there are no bugs that make it a one shot for people who know what they are doing. As much as ZOs has made too many wrong decisions in the past, this is one aspect of the game they did get right.

Yes, I did figure out after many hours in PvP how to deal with gankers because I am not a quitter and I resolved to get better at the game rather than asking for the company to hire a dozen gamemasters to ensure that classes designed around the hit and run or sheath playstyle wouldn't be forced to play like Dragonknights. Those thousands of people who left PvP because of ganking left because PvP just isn;t their thing. You think they would have hung around with 45K+ health warden tanks who deal just as much damage and would be neigh invincible to these same players? No way. They obviously do not like feeling powerless against other players. Again this is the nature of PvP. A highly skilled player will make someone inexperienced feel powerless. It happens every single night in no CP PvP where all the supposed advantages of play time are taken away. That's not going to change.

I have to disagree on both counts, ganking isn't some absolutely vital aspect of any PVP that games can't do without.

They did not suggest the ganking was vital but that it is an accepted part of PvP in pretty much every game. They clearly state that as a player new to PvP in a given game gains more experience they will better be able to handle these more experienced players.

I would suggest seeking a decent guild that runs. There are probably a number of guilds that run small group PvP that would be helpful with builds and other advice and fun to run with.

OMG why didn't I think of that. A PVP guild solves all problems with PVP.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Getting ganked is a learn to play issue, especially in current eso. You can have dang 30k hp, heavy armor, and still hit like a truck. You aren't going to get 1 GCD'ed with a build like that and no excuse not to have it. Hell most good magsorcs I come across can't even be 1 GCD'ed with their shields down. I see nbs that I can't 1 gcd on a regular basis and I hit like a nuke. Leave us gankers alone already, are you really not going to be satisfied until even complete noobs can't be killed with a bow?

Many of us now hunt in duos or packs because its getting really hard to gank anyone decent. Training up a noob ganker right now to join me on the hunt. Get prepared to get dual sniped with perfect synchronicity via voice chat, this is future you chose. Ill force you all to become legit trial tanks to survive my bow. HAHA even if they give bows a 50% nerf ill still be insta killing you with my bois. THERE IS NO ESCAPE, ONLY DEATH AND T BAGGING AWAITS THOSE WHO FIND THEMSELVES IN MY SIGHT.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I agree Knightslayer needs a buff, I do see it here and there though. My point was really that it's inaccurate to describe Kite until Ult as Tank, Tank is Turtle until Ult, it's different. Call em acrobats or something because I don't think anybody is really complaining about Glorgorloch builds.

No, I thought about this alot. I am not going to let them have heavy armor, sword n board, tank hp, and then let them think they are some how above being labeled a tank because they pillar hump. I call them tanklets and I won't change my mind on that. Not a full on tank, I can kill them in 2 GCDs if I catch them off guard, but they are tanklets.

Urzigurumash

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

You can have dang 30k hp, heavy armor, and still hit like a truck.

We've always been able to do this on Xbox as a DK, since launch. I re-read your comment, yes I agree. Ganking is part of a healthy ecosystem, as are "tanklets" who can deal damage. Gankers beat balanced, balanced beats tanklets, tanklets beats gankers. It all works out.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

No, I thought about this alot. I am not going to let them have heavy armor, sword n board, tank hp, and then let them think they are some how above being labeled a tank because they pillar hump. I call them tanklets and I won't change my mind on that. Not a full on tank, I can kill them in 2 GCDs if I catch them off guard, but they are tanklets.

I see what you mean, "tanklet" being not quite a full tank. I like that, I'll happily wear that label.

Love your enthusiasm, embracing the class identity even in your forum conversations. I approve of this very much.

Iriidius

Ganking is also more about power than about skill. If you hit a player with a perfect burst combo you still wont kill him if your offensive power is too low, while with enaugh offensive power also a bad gank can kill your opponent. As a ganker you have to do maximal damage in minimal time. Maybe with Skill you can time your combo better but with power each off your skills does more damage. You cant gank anyone if you hit like a wet noodle.
Gankers usually also dont gank tanks but squishy players.

Rhaegar75

I passionately hate ganking and NBs truly go on my nerves but ganking, in my opinion, is and must remain an acceptable play-style.

It’s the good old ambush concept that is part and parcel of every war or war game.

If I enter a pvp environment I must expect being attacked at any given moment: if it happens and a ganker kills me I must ask what I’ve done wrong and accept it’s part of a normal game.
The only message to myself would be “wake up smell the coffee and don’t fall asleep in cyrodyl”

I’d rather have a server full of gankers than having to deal with bot like ball groups and troll tanks that lap towers.

CharlieFreak

Ezorus wrote: »

Building a tank to be chased around a tower by 10 other players is boring AF. I'd rather kill someone in seconds and be killed quickly than draw out a fight

Yeah this is one playstyle I just don't 'get'. YouTube is full of videos of people 1vXing and it's nothing but tower trolls or some guy running around a rock for 30 minutes until people just get bored to tears and stop self-buffing.

Personally I might duck behind a tree or rock to heal, but if 10 guys are chasing me... why bother wasting everyone's game time, I just fight them on the open field and get the fight over with and die.

It's trivial and takes no skill to run around a rock formation or even a single tree almost endlessly and take very little damage due to how sensitive the LoS mechanics are in this game.

CharlieFreak

The worst thing about NBs,, to me, is that I'm often fighting someone and, invariably, 1-3 newish nightblades will join in by dropping their surprise/incap on me and then bagging me. Yep, that's pure skill.

Seriously there are some great nightblades out there and I enjoy fighting them. That's why I play a lot in IC. However the class does seem to attract hordes of new players who like to be hidden and simply join in on fights that are in-progress.

Merforum

CharlieFreak wrote: »

The worst thing about NBs,, to me, is that I'm often fighting someone and, invariably, 1-3 newish nightblades will join in by dropping their surprise/incap on me and then bagging me. Yep, that's pure skill.

Seriously there are some great nightblades out there and I enjoy fighting them. That's why I play a lot in IC. However the class does seem to attract hordes of new players who like to be hidden and simply join in on fights that are in-progress.

Yup this is my point, It is too easy for people to get ganked then become a NB themselves and sneak around with other NBs, 'ganking and bagging' as you say. It's a vicious cycle, that only creates a lot of bad feelings. It should be much harder to gank someone. For instance, the initial hit shouldn't be able to outright kill someone, it should require at least 2 seconds/attacks to get a kill. And/or the inviso should only work before combat but not be able to use once fight begins.

CharlieFreak

Merforum wrote: »

CharlieFreak wrote: »

The worst thing about NBs,, to me, is that I'm often fighting someone and, invariably, 1-3 newish nightblades will join in by dropping their surprise/incap on me and then bagging me. Yep, that's pure skill.

Seriously there are some great nightblades out there and I enjoy fighting them. That's why I play a lot in IC. However the class does seem to attract hordes of new players who like to be hidden and simply join in on fights that are in-progress.

Yup this is my point, It is too easy for people to get ganked then become a NB themselves and sneak around with other NBs, 'ganking and bagging' as you say. It's a vicious cycle, that only creates a lot of bad feelings. It should be much harder to gank someone. For instance, the initial hit shouldn't be able to outright kill someone, it should require at least 2 seconds/attacks to get a kill. And/or the inviso should only work before combat but not be able to use once fight begins.

I do agree with you in a lot of ways. I've played many MMOs over the last 22 years and this one, by far, has the fastest TTK in pvp. I have complained about this in many threads. And yes, it makes sense that a person would get ganked over and over and decide to make a ganker themselves. The safety of stealth and picking and choosing your fights is very appealing in that case.

I play pvp with magicka classes exclusively in this game, and while I mostly PvP and therefore have adapted to how it works in this game - it seems silly that I have to base my whole build around surviving NB burst and ways to keep them visible and snared/rooted/stunned etc. Seems kinda odd to have mage classes running around in heavy armor, sword/shield backbar, high stamina pool (roll/block/sprint). It's all counterintuitive from what I've come to expect from other MMOs.

And yes, the current way stealth works makes it maddeningly frustrating at times to fight the NBs who have mastered the hide & seek style of bursting you, re-hiding, buffing, bursting you again, over and over and over. And if they find you too tanky, they just leave. Detect pots work well, but long cooldown. Blinding Flare and Solar Barrage (templar) are also very helpful, but honestly if detect pot is on cooldown it's quite easy for them to get out of range of the other stuff. Blinding Flare is not cheap to cast over and over.

Larcomar

Thannazzar wrote: »

Really good vid, totally agree it should be about skill not power: (perfect example of why Ganking is not an acceptable playstyle)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gMukqERCaEQ

Going back to the original pt, the game being balanced for power rather than skill, not quite sure I see it. I mean, *kind of.* Sure, you need about 1200 CP to have all the passives unlocked. And i guess there are some sets you need to go farm. But, come on, leaving aside there's a baby pvp server for sub 50s, we now have a no cp, no proc server specifically for newbies.

If people feel they've outgrown Ravenwatch and want to step up to Grayhost early, well, that's on them. But you want a level playing field, you've got Ravenwatch. Noone's getting extra power from their cp there. And there's like 20 sets that work. The vast majority of them - and actually many of the best - are easily accessible via crafting or guild vendors.

As to the extended debate about ganking well, I think everyone else said it. I'll admit I've done it. it's a good place to start in cyro. But you're not going to gank a decent player with proper gear nowadays unless you go 2-1. Indeed, I find a lot of 2 on 1 ganks still fail because they're not very good. Just slot a defensive set like pariah and ride on.

Rebiludo

many people forget that the fight started long before the players crossed paths. In a mmorpg, the goal is precisely to create the imbalance to almost win the fight before the meeting ... the skill starts with theorycrafting, otherwise we are on an fps or in chess
We start on cyrodiil, we die a lot of times, we analyze ... and we orient our gameplay, we test, we adjust. We choose what type of player we will be strong against and we know in return that we will be weak against others, like a shifumi.

I have always loved playing glass cannon, but what mainly decided me to play gank is to be able to escape when 8 players come to kill me while I am all alone ... the game allows it ... 'adapted. Others want to survive the ganks ... and become a big tank, etc ...

Andre_Noir

Rebiludo wrote: »

I have always loved playing glass cannon

There are no cannons. Glass ye but without a cannon

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Rebiludo wrote: »

I have always loved playing glass cannon

There are no cannons. Glass ye but without a cannon

Feels that way sometimes, but then you find a non tank and 1gcd them. Man this game is actually just bad. You either kill in 1 shot or can't kill at all. I wish there was a skill component to this game, but it truly is all about power. Half the players in eso think its a damage meta and the other half think its a tank meta, lmao. Everything is so extreme and unbalanced. Maybe we need to bring back hard caps on offense, but also defense. It will never be a balanced game so long as you can build to such extremes. How do you balance it when 1 player dies instantly and another can't die? Put a hard cap on defense so that NO ONE is unkillable and a hard cap on offense so NO ONE can 1 shot.

Or just make a no proc, no cp, default armor/weapons only campaign. You just bring your skill loadout, default armor, and default weapons. No room for power in a campaign like that and it would be easy to balance. Every player is using heavy armor and sword n board? Nerf it. Everyone is using a staff? Nerf it. Too bad no one wants to give up their power or that campaign would kick ass.

NoodleESO

You're all wrong! really though. Why aren't the devs telling us weather or not this is the way the game is intended to play?

You're all arguing over something that is ambiguous because there hasn't been any direction for pvp in this game since day one and that's the truth.

CharlieFreak

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Feels that way sometimes, but then you find a non tank and 1gcd them. Man this game is actually just bad. You either kill in 1 shot or can't kill at all. I wish there was a skill component to this game, but it truly is all about power. Half the players in eso think its a damage meta and the other half think its a tank meta, lmao. Everything is so extreme and unbalanced. Maybe we need to bring back hard caps on offense, but also defense. It will never be a balanced game so long as you can build to such extremes. How do you balance it when 1 player dies instantly and another can't die?

I hear ya. I think part of the problem is that you can be tanky in this game and also do quite a lot of damage. No one would care about people being tanky if they hit like a wet noodle? I have no problem with someone building a super defensive toon, but I would expect their offense to be laughable.

Same thing with healing and shields. When the main damage stat also gives you massive healing and shields, many classes can have quite a formidable defense and crazy high damage.

Usually in MMOs if you build a tanky PvP toon, it's pointless. It just means you'll be the last one to die. They'll just ignore you (because you have crap damage), focus the healer down, then the dps one by one, then deal with you.

On one hand this makes the game great. That all classes can solo, and that the required group composition is more relaxed There's no standing around at your base, unable to find a healer and therefore unable to pvp at all without one. That's a huge flaw in many MMOs. On the other hand, it leads to the situation you're describing.