Ack! Dark Convergence Became the Pro-Ball Group/Zerg Set

guarstompemoji

It's so effective that it's being used on small groups. It's nearly the only set being run.

Kwoung

beagles wrote: »

It's so effective that it's being used on small groups. It's nearly the only set being run.

And they don't purge anymore, rendering Plaguebreak completely ineffective. Is this a surprise?

ResidentContrarian

Kwoung wrote: »

beagles wrote: »

It's so effective that it's being used on small groups. It's nearly the only set being run.

And they don't purge anymore, rendering Plaguebreak completely ineffective. Is this a surprise?

And now they also properly die which is why grouped players have come to the forums to complain about the sets and still are...

And let's be honest here, 12+ of any aoe damage set is going to wipe a small group without a healing god on their side eventually. The entire battlefield, even a faction v. faction stack can be changed by the addition or subtraction of one healer, and it is even more the case during small scale v. larger groups.

The Uninvited

I've actually managed to dodge out of it a few times yesterday on Alessia bridge.

xylena_lazarow

Kwoung wrote: »

And they don't purge anymore, rendering Plaguebreak completely ineffective. Is this a surprise?

They figured out that HoT stacking even without purge spam still makes them nigh immortal. The meta will be like this until ZOS nerfs HoT stacking into oblivion, or gives us a proc set that disproportionately punishes HoT stacking.

neferpitou73

Oh no! Whoever could've seen this coming?! I mean, besides the entire PTS

Minnesinger

The set wearers are squishy as it comes only in light armor. The users are easy to spot. The AoE of the set gives a small window to run away from its range. Hardly been killed by any set user.

Kwoung

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

beagles wrote: »

It's so effective that it's being used on small groups. It's nearly the only set being run.

And they don't purge anymore, rendering Plaguebreak completely ineffective. Is this a surprise?

And now they also properly die which is why grouped players have come to the forums to complain about the sets and still are...

And let's be honest here, 12+ of any aoe damage set is going to wipe a small group without a healing god on their side eventually. The entire battlefield, even a faction v. faction stack can be changed by the addition or subtraction of one healer, and it is even more the case during small scale v. larger groups.

I think you missed the OP's point, he is saying the ball groups are wearing it now to kill everyone, not the other way around. And no... the good ball groups are not "properly dying" to this or any of the new sets, by any means. It took about a day or two to figure out the counters and turn it around on everyone else.

ResidentContrarian

Kwoung wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

beagles wrote: »

It's so effective that it's being used on small groups. It's nearly the only set being run.

And they don't purge anymore, rendering Plaguebreak completely ineffective. Is this a surprise?

And now they also properly die which is why grouped players have come to the forums to complain about the sets and still are...

And let's be honest here, 12+ of any aoe damage set is going to wipe a small group without a healing god on their side eventually. The entire battlefield, even a faction v. faction stack can be changed by the addition or subtraction of one healer, and it is even more the case during small scale v. larger groups.

I think you missed the OP's point, he is saying the ball groups are wearing it now to kill everyone, not the other way around. And no... the good ball groups are not "properly dying" to this or any of the new sets, by any means. It took about a day or two to figure out the counters and turn it around on everyone else.

Funny, AD ball groups on PC NA, even their faction stack has failed to utilize it from what I have seen. Despite having the most players slotting it, it is AD that is getting wrekt hard by the sets on PC NA.

And now those players all want it nerfed...Guess it's not truly a magic bullet?

neferpitou73

Minnesinger wrote: »

The set wearers are squishy as it comes only in light armor. The users are easy to spot. The AoE of the set gives a small window to run away from its range. Hardly been killed by any set user.

Unless the wearers are in ball groups with 32k resists in light armour

CSose

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

beagles wrote: »

It's so effective that it's being used on small groups. It's nearly the only set being run.

And they don't purge anymore, rendering Plaguebreak completely ineffective. Is this a surprise?

And now they also properly die which is why grouped players have come to the forums to complain about the sets and still are...

And let's be honest here, 12+ of any aoe damage set is going to wipe a small group without a healing god on their side eventually. The entire battlefield, even a faction v. faction stack can be changed by the addition or subtraction of one healer, and it is even more the case during small scale v. larger groups.

I think you missed the OP's point, he is saying the ball groups are wearing it now to kill everyone, not the other way around. And no... the good ball groups are not "properly dying" to this or any of the new sets, by any means. It took about a day or two to figure out the counters and turn it around on everyone else.

Funny, AD ball groups on PC NA, even their faction stack has failed to utilize it from what I have seen. Despite having the most players slotting it, it is AD that is getting wrekt hard by the sets on PC NA.

And now those players all want it nerfed...Guess it's not truly a magic bullet?

Except that is not what is happening at all. It's just not.

fullheartcontainer

Deep_01

You do realise that there is strength in numbers. That's why every one of my char except bomber avoid prime time cyro.

ResidentContrarian

CSose wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

beagles wrote: »

It's so effective that it's being used on small groups. It's nearly the only set being run.

And they don't purge anymore, rendering Plaguebreak completely ineffective. Is this a surprise?

And now they also properly die which is why grouped players have come to the forums to complain about the sets and still are...

And let's be honest here, 12+ of any aoe damage set is going to wipe a small group without a healing god on their side eventually. The entire battlefield, even a faction v. faction stack can be changed by the addition or subtraction of one healer, and it is even more the case during small scale v. larger groups.

I think you missed the OP's point, he is saying the ball groups are wearing it now to kill everyone, not the other way around. And no... the good ball groups are not "properly dying" to this or any of the new sets, by any means. It took about a day or two to figure out the counters and turn it around on everyone else.

Funny, AD ball groups on PC NA, even their faction stack has failed to utilize it from what I have seen. Despite having the most players slotting it, it is AD that is getting wrekt hard by the sets on PC NA.

And now those players all want it nerfed...Guess it's not truly a magic bullet?

Except that is not what is happening at all. It's just not.

Tell me what happened when AD stacked Ash at the start of primetime on Greyhost PC NA?

Despite a majority of them in tank builds using that set, they still got wiped and pushed back. The reason being because, despite how "strong" the set has the potential to be, you still need basic skills in the game to utilize it.

You also need flexibility to make use of the sets and to exploit the best possible timing -- that can't happen when you are waiting for a leader to tell you what to do in combat unless you can force players into certain behaviors.

The sets also can't really kill players that are unorganized or spread out without any other input from a player wearing the set, which also makes it unsuitable for group play.

The problem is that the set on unorganized players cannot be predicted, and that is why those groups stand no chance and groups are the main complainants about the set.

You can disagree all you want, but reality is different from what you believe. Also AD zerging the map down when no one is on and slotting the set is not a litmus test for the set, considering the end result would be the same anyway.

The set doesn't make any real difference for a ball group, and in fact, not slotting purge is more dangerous for a ball group than for anyone else considering the players in it won't be rolling and blocking leaving them easy prey for snare, siege, and even just one person running the set.

That is the case, and it's why the players that are complaining on the forums are nearly all players that run in ball groups or "small mans" that happen to be 12 players.

Joy_Division

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

CSose wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

beagles wrote: »

It's so effective that it's being used on small groups. It's nearly the only set being run.

And they don't purge anymore, rendering Plaguebreak completely ineffective. Is this a surprise?

And now they also properly die which is why grouped players have come to the forums to complain about the sets and still are...

And let's be honest here, 12+ of any aoe damage set is going to wipe a small group without a healing god on their side eventually. The entire battlefield, even a faction v. faction stack can be changed by the addition or subtraction of one healer, and it is even more the case during small scale v. larger groups.

I think you missed the OP's point, he is saying the ball groups are wearing it now to kill everyone, not the other way around. And no... the good ball groups are not "properly dying" to this or any of the new sets, by any means. It took about a day or two to figure out the counters and turn it around on everyone else.

Funny, AD ball groups on PC NA, even their faction stack has failed to utilize it from what I have seen. Despite having the most players slotting it, it is AD that is getting wrekt hard by the sets on PC NA.

And now those players all want it nerfed...Guess it's not truly a magic bullet?

Except that is not what is happening at all. It's just not.

Tell me what happened when AD stacked Ash at the start of primetime on Greyhost PC NA?

Despite a majority of them in tank builds using that set, they still got wiped and pushed back. The reason being because, despite how "strong" the set has the potential to be, you still need basic skills in the game to utilize it.

You also need flexibility to make use of the sets and to exploit the best possible timing -- that can't happen when you are waiting for a leader to tell you what to do in combat unless you can force players into certain behaviors.

The sets also can't really kill players that are unorganized or spread out without any other input from a player wearing the set, which also makes it unsuitable for group play.

The problem is that the set on unorganized players cannot be predicted, and that is why those groups stand no chance and groups are the main complainants about the set.

You can disagree all you want, but reality is different from what you believe. Also AD zerging the map down when no one is on and slotting the set is not a litmus test for the set, considering the end result would be the same anyway.

The set doesn't make any real difference for a ball group, and in fact, not slotting purge is more dangerous for a ball group than for anyone else considering the players in it won't be rolling and blocking leaving them easy prey for snare, siege, and even just one person running the set.

That is the case, and it's why the players that are complaining on the forums are nearly all players that run in ball groups or "small mans" that happen to be 12 players.

Have you played since the last patch dropped?

Kwoung

I am confused, where are all these threads of the ball group leaders complaining? I seem to have missed them.

Crown

Kwoung wrote: »

I am confused, where are all these threads of the ball group leaders complaining? I seem to have missed them.

Ball group leader here. Not complaining.

Kwoung

Crown wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I am confused, where are all these threads of the ball group leaders complaining? I seem to have missed them.

Ball group leader here. Not complaining.

IKR? All other things aside, any set that will stack your enemies in a nice little pile for your burst, has gotta be a good thing!

Magio_

Plaguebreak was designed to stop organized groups from being near immortal just for having a Purge Monkey.

Hrothgar was designed to kill Tanky McBlockTanks (and innocent bystanders lol).

Dark Convergence was designed so organized groups can stack groups of zerglings into their ult bombs more consistently.

The strength of Dark Convergence lies in being able to follow through on the free CC. It was never meant for unorganized groups to use it against organized ones lol.

Kwoung

So then... Hrothgars doesn't fulfill its function, as it doesn't kill tanks. Only clowns purge in Cyrodiil now, as it is a very high chance of instant death for everyone around... and DC is broken in numerous ways making it pretty over preforming.

You really have to love that nearly every fix ZOS implements for something, tends to have the exact opposite affect of their intentions.

DTStormfox

Vicious Death, Proximity Detonation... all were intended to be counters to ball groups, all turned out being most effectively used by ball groups.

I am not surprised because I already predicted this would happen, and I am 100% sure I am not the only one who thought so.

Solution: leave the proc campaign

CSose

Kwoung wrote: »

So then... Hrothgars doesn't fulfill its function, as it doesn't kill tanks. Only clowns purge in Cyrodiil now, as it is a very high chance of instant death for everyone around... and DC is broken in numerous ways making it pretty over preforming.

You really have to love that nearly every fix ZOS implements for something, tends to have the exact opposite affect of their intentions.

They threw in a bunch of PvP breaking sets right before passing the baton to MS.

Crown

None of these sets break PvP, they just change how some people play.. a bit.

Hrothgar being bugged and doing higher damage based on the number of players hit (total armour of them all instead of just of the person hit) should be fixed eventually, in which case the set is absolutely useless.

Plaguebreak was really fun the first two days, then everyone stopped running Curse Eater and purging, so now the value approaches zero.

Dark Convergence is a better tool for an organized group than it is for solos/randoms/pugs.

I commend the combat team's intent in coming up with something new, though it's very obvious that they don't play their own game and haven't consulted anyone that plays in the way that they're looking to combat. We used to have regular meetings with the devs back in the good old days where they'd (at least pretend to) listen to what we said. Seems like recently they only listen to the vocal minority of "1vX" streamers who spend their time in groups with another few 1vX'ers.

Kwoung

Crown wrote: »

None of these sets break PvP, they just change how some people play.. a bit.

Hrothgar being bugged and doing higher damage based on the number of players hit (total armour of them all instead of just of the person hit) should be fixed eventually, in which case the set is absolutely useless.

Plaguebreak was really fun the first two days, then everyone stopped running Curse Eater and purging, so now the value approaches zero.

Dark Convergence is a better tool for an organized group than it is for solos/randoms/pugs.

I commend the combat team's intent in coming up with something new, though it's very obvious that they don't play their own game and haven't consulted anyone that plays in the way that they're looking to combat. We used to have regular meetings with the devs back in the good old days where they'd (at least pretend to) listen to what we said. Seems like recently they only listen to the vocal minority of "1vX" streamers who spend their time in groups with another few 1vX'ers.

Back in the day... and I am dating myself here... SOE used to hold player round tables, where a decent number of us would be invited to spend a week down in San Diego, take in the sights/attractions and sit down to discuss game mechanics, features, etc... at length in each of our particular areas, like crafting, PVP, boss fights, overworld, etc... SOE actually listened to us a good portion of the time, as none of us came in with a personal agenda, and everyone was just trying to make the game better overall. I felt this worked great. Now however, the games that do this, use their "Pro" players (ie: popular Streamers) for this, and it skews the game in some very bad ways away from the average player, and towards that group getting more views on Twitch or YouTube.

illutian

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

[snip] ded. xD

It's true.

It's also extremely broken in Lagdiil. I get sucked in and can't even roll out before it deals damage.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Tigor

This set brings players together, and there is no escape from.

Don't feed the pigeons you will get covered in misery. 🕊

Jaimeh

Yep, you drop one on a group, and there's three dropped on you back to back

Idinuse

I know burdening the already kneeling servers with yet more calculations isn't optimal, but IMO there should be checks on these Zerg Buster Sets. The lowest DMG value - on a single player not grouped and not close to any other player of their faction (10m radius? 20?) the set should have a base value of like 200, if any DMG at all. Then increase in damage with each condition raised. Like if you're grouped and how close you are to other friendly players.

This for once would actually start making a Zerg buster set effective on Zergs and completely ineffective on solo players...

Hymzir

You cannot fix a systemic problem by introducing new components to the equation. The flaw is inherent in the system itself and the new component wont fix it, merely dampen its effects. And if the issue arises from drift (as is the case with ESO via players adapting to the new factors and mechanics) the problem will re-emerge.

There is an inherent structural bias, within the core framework of ESO, that disproportionally empowers certain patterns. Following these patterns means you are no longer really engaging with the play of the game, rather than gaming the system. Which is fun in it's own way, but is not the intended aim of the system as designed.

Because the system accepts outliers, and does not contain any sort of mechanics to ensure values stay within the curve, the system is prone to generate disruptive patterns. And whenever such a new outlier emerges, ZOS has a habit of introducing new components targeted to squash the issue. But those new factors tend to just be assimilated by the system and make the resulting problem even bigger.

And no, I do not pretend to know the solution to this problem. Systemic issues arise from poor core planning and implementation. The only way to fix them is by de-constructing it, walking the process and comparing the results with the visualized target, and then applying a new model that hopefully steers away from the issues that crippled the previous iteration. If not, then rinse and repeat. However, who exactly thinks ZOS is gonna go for rebuilding the system from scratch at this stage of the game?

Yeah... Me neither.

Math is hard, and there is nothing quite so aggravating as a game designer that declares in a state of hubris that: "Math is easy!" That you can deal with it last. That you can just balance the numbers at the end of the design process. This incident did not take place with ESO, but the devs have gone on record ,that they were much more focused on coming up with cool ideas, rather than on how the thing is supposed to fit together, during the early stages of development, and it shows. The move from percentage based modifiers to flat values is a good example of ZOS trying to wrangle the system into cohesion. They did not think things through when setting up this thing, and now they are paying the price for it.

I was not happy about the no-cp campaign being changed to a non-proc campaign. I had to completely re-think, re-design, and re-farm my build to fit in the new reality. But you know what, it was worth it. The new expanded list of allowed sets has plenty of space for builds, and there are less of those random components they introduced over the years as band-aids to their systemic problem. The foundations is as wonky as ever, but the more streamlined number of components make for a much more enjoyable playing experience as a whole. Of course, if your aim is to game the system for maximum benefits, i suppose it wont float your boat, but... there is always the CP campaign with full procs to play with.

Sure, no cp no procs and no hanmer, is far from perfect, and you can still push the boundaries and abuse the flaws inherent to the system, but most of those can be dealt with player experience. As in - do not chase after that bunny hopping sorc, do not dance with the roll dodge monkey around a tree, do not rush into a resource tower being squatted by a co-ordinated team of no-lifers. Do not chase that ball group around the keep walls, engage them in the open where they have less chance to LOS and funnel foes into tight kill zones.

In no proc no cp campaign, ball groups are still effective and annoying and disruptive, but they are not immortal. And that is as good as you can expect things to be, given the systemic issues with the game itself.

CSose

It was kinda funny at first, but it's just game breaking and ruining it for the vast majority that want to PvP.

People did ask for ways to better counter ball groups, but nobody asked for anything this intentionally OP, not ever. Plus, just look at the crazy calculations these new sets throw down onto already stuttering servers. It's almost like they set out to break PvP with the last patch.

biminirwb17_ESO

Its not only the proc set that is doing the damage, dark convergence needs something to proc off - there are many.

For instance razor caltrops - damage is minimal BUT 50% movement speed reduction and Major Breach then DC procs.
Volcanic Rune - pulled in, 2 secs then bam stun from VR and a trip into the air.

There are other more nasty variants but you get the idea.

Plaguebreaker - its really a poison dot with a "outheal or explode" built in.

So if you get hit with lethal arrow, poison status effect, PB dot and poison ticks it takes a LOT of healing meaning you are out of your healing resource (stam or mag) pretty fast.

Hrothgar seems to have a bug with its damage, not sure if this is intentional.

So its not really the sets its the combinations, over time people will adapt, gain new positional awareness, new counters.