Why are Mythic items so Meh and Thick. 😂

Red_Feather

Except for the rings, the mythic items really feel like convoluted mechanics with mediocre results. A lot of the ones in the end feel like they only benefit niche play-styles in content like trials in which one person's build doesn't even matter. [snip] a wafting into the faces the smell of 'mythic', while having no real substance or even mechanics that are fun to play with.

[edited for bashing]

Vevvev

For fear of becoming OP and "pay to win". I may be wrong but some of these devs worked on another game with similar items and they were far too over tuned and it led to the game's collapse.

Red_Feather

I just get excited about the idea of mythics being fun things to play with, but instead it feels like they are made to give the illusion of raising meta numbers while being a trap to restrict how the 0.001% meta number chasers play builds.

Something cool would be sprint for 5 seconds and lose half health and create a clone of your character.

Amerises

Red_Feather wrote: »

I just get excited about the idea of mythics being fun things to play with, but instead it feels like they are made to give the illusion of raising meta numbers while being a trap to restrict how the 0.001% meta number chasers play builds.

Something cool would be sprint for 5 seconds and lose half health and create a clone of your character.

I want to make a time remnant as well! ... Only this may not be the game to start introducing DCU abilities to ...

Mythic items should be niche, because the alternative is making something meta that everyone needs, thus making a "pay to win" item. I find myself using different mythic for different situations, and thats how it should be.

Red_Feather

Amerises wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

I just get excited about the idea of mythics being fun things to play with, but instead it feels like they are made to give the illusion of raising meta numbers while being a trap to restrict how the 0.001% meta number chasers play builds.

Something cool would be sprint for 5 seconds and lose half health and create a clone of your character.

I want to make a time remnant as well! ... Only this may not be the game to start introducing DCU abilities to ...

Mythic items should be niche, because the alternative is making something meta that everyone needs, thus making a "pay to win" item. I find myself using different mythic for different situations, and thats how it should be.

To be honest weapon sets are better than mythics, so much better, and I don't think they ruined the game.

I wonder why can't Mythic items work on modifying the general skill pool abilities. Like a mythic that makes it so Equilibrium transfers status effects to enemy targets if the target has less health than the caster.

YandereGirlfriend

I don't really mind Mythic items benefiting niche playstyles but I DO mind them not being powerful enough to excel at them.

I also very much mind certain Mythics being de facto abandoned by the developers and left to wither away in the Great Scrap Heap of Unloved Sets.

The people still demand #Justice for the Thrassian Stranglers.

Red_Feather

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I don't really mind Mythic items benefiting niche playstyles but I DO mind them not being powerful enough to excel at them.

I also very much mind certain Mythics being de facto abandoned by the developers and left to wither away in the Great Scrap Heap of Unloved Sets.

The people still demand #Justice for the Thrassian Stranglers.

It's funny I got the stranglers but never used them. The idea of doing X to make X stack of X for X seconds just isn't interesting gameplay to me. I don't care to jump through hoops to chase a ghost of higher parses. I wonder why create such an item whose only attraction was the end results of meeting it's conditions and certainly not the gameplay of its conditions.

karekiz

I am not really a super fan of Mythic, I would have vastly more enjoyed more Ability Altering weapons instead <Who says we can't have more than 1 for a single ability?>

They have been roughly better balanced overall. Stranglers were just a bit much, ROTPO broke class roles too much <One item should kill an entire Trinity role for the "Difficulty" of just putting it on>, and the kilt is probably the better of the balance. Its good. Really good, not game breaking.

Parrot1986

I’m pretty happy with mythics. They seem to be getting a better balance now from the initial thrassians nonsense.

This patch I’ve been using a mix of the kilt and gaze of sithis and really like both. Neither are OP and work well within set scenarios but provide a noticeable impact to your gameplay.

Stx

I like mythics having a niche fit for builds. Obviously they're not perfect but I would say they are pretty well balanced right now... other than that wierd healer necklace, it looks pretty useless but I wouldn't know.

Red_Feather

"Stx wrote: »

"other than that wierd healer necklace, it looks pretty useless but I wouldn't know.

I was actually playing around with that one, the pearls of garbage, just recently. I imagine it has one use and one use only... to get people into wasting their time spamming HoTs in trials to cast an extra ultimate or two during the fight when they should be using that time to contribute to damage.

shezof

i disagree. mythics are another ZOS tool to sell dlcs. i mean look at how many mythics blackwood has. in one map only. only way to get it is by a seperate purchase. and things like sithis,fete,harpooner etc all great mythics.

Vevvev

Stx wrote: »

I like mythics having a niche fit for builds. Obviously they're not perfect but I would say they are pretty well balanced right now... other than that wierd healer necklace, it looks pretty useless but I wouldn't know.

Pretty much a Dragonknight healer only mythic that is super niche. Use the Battle Roar passive sustain and spam heals at low Magicka to build up ultimate to get more Magicka basically.

Ippokrates

Well, Ring of the Pale Order was possible one the most game changing item in the history of ESO. With this ring people could solo hard content far easier than before.

Kilt is great for dps and if you are in well organized groop you can really pull out substantially higher number.

Gaze of Sithis and Malacath, at least before the last patch, are looking like really popular in pvp. And maybe the DDF ring would be too. It has a potential.

Wild Hunt - well, not only a great tool for speedrunners & gatherers, but i personally love it to use on my stamplar Orc in any kind of heist mission or Black Sacrament, so i can move with normal speed without necessity of keeping & changing whole 5-piece set just for eliminating that penalty.

I am not talking about Stranglers - didn't managed to get fishing for the lead or Werewolf Necklace - cause i didn't play much as WW ^^

But i think in proper setting they could be useful for healers. Maybe tanks. So mythics are not so bad ..

fred4

Red_Feather wrote: »

I just get excited about the idea of mythics being fun things to play with, but instead it feels like they are made to give the illusion of raising meta numbers while being a trap to restrict how the 0.001% meta number chasers play builds.

Something cool would be sprint for 5 seconds and lose half health and create a clone of your character.

I agree something like this would be fun, however as long as the game shares potential builds between PvE and PvP, it's probably a no go. The closest thing that's already in the game is nightblade's Shadow Image and that is an extremely powerful skill in PvP. You also get invisibility from continuous sprinting as a stage 4 vampire. Perhaps you should PvP. Things are less cut and dry than they are in top level PvE.

Mythics are a balancing act. However I find speed always fun and Wild Hunt is always up there, lurking in the background, while people talk about other things. Kilt is actually meta in PvE currently, albeit you've made it clear you don't care for parses. Snow Treaders are a bit too situational to be used much in either PvP or PvE, but they are being used and can make you laugh at your opponent(s) in some encounters. Malacath is a PvP staple. Pale Order is a solo PvE staple and will get you through vMA and vVateshran, if you haven't done those arenas yet. Don't worry, the content will still be difficult. Pale Order arguably creates a more even playing field for that content. Sorc (Crit Surge), magplar (Sweeps) and magblade all heal from doing damage already, but not all classes do. With that ring, they can. Stranglers have been used for insane boss burns in vMA, at least when they were more powerful. Death Dealer's Fete is meta for magsorcs in PvP and for mag-stacking builds in general.

Parrot1986

shezof wrote: »

i disagree. mythics are another ZOS tool to sell dlcs. i mean look at how many mythics blackwood has. in one map only. only way to get it is by a seperate purchase. and things like sithis,fete,harpooner etc all great mythics.

Putting good items into a chapter is a bad thing? The more they put into these the better IMO. I’d rather have that than a few quests and trial and still be charged £40

luen79rwb17_ESO

It's something the developers called "kiss cursed" or something like that. It's meant to be like you're getting a huge buff but at some important cost. Most of them seem like a gimmick to me or very niche to say the least. I do recognize the effort for trying to do something different but balance is always the issue at hand.

BXR_Lonestar

The problem with mythic items right now IMO is the fact that the changes to proc set damage scaling has made most monster sets useless, and there aren't really any adequate replacements for the monster sets that were more general use. Thrassian Stranglers? They're niche and situational. Whalers kilt? Same thing. The mythic ring that gives you additional resources? Also niche.

Monster helms - especially the damage dealing kind, were very much plug and play, fire and forget kind of items where you equip them and get the benefit without thinking about them, but these mythics are so situational that they aren't really a great/adequate replacement for monster sets across the board. Perhaps that will change with the release of more mythics, but it definitely feels like the mythics are only good in such narrow situations or on such narrow builds that your often better to just use mismatched monster pieces.

etchedpixels

The best mythics IMHO have been the non combat ones, where you can trade a combat benefit for something else (healing, speed etc). The combat ones are either "meh" to start with or "oops we misjudged that, nerfed" a release later.

Syrpynt

Malacath's Band was great last year because it actually made non-critical builds (always been meta) become more viable.

Pretty sure it was PvP'ers who were pissed off that their critical resist traits and sets were getting bypassed, and dropping like flies.

If they wanted to nerf the ring to be weak, they should have named it "Trinimac's Band of Courage" and after the update/nerf, rename it to "Malacath's Band of Petty Vengeance." lol lore jokes.

BXR_Lonestar

Syrpynt wrote: »

Malacath's Band was great last year because it actually made non-critical builds (always been meta) become more viable.

Pretty sure it was PvP'ers who were pissed off that their critical resist traits and sets were getting bypassed, and dropping like flies.

If they wanted to nerf the ring to be weak, they should have named it "Trinimac's Band of Courage" and after the update/nerf, rename it to "Malacath's Band of Petty Vengeance." lol lore jokes.

Yes, I hate that PVPers whined and got the Malacath's band nerfed because it was the one thing that could make non-crit builds viable and competitive in PVE. I had just farmed up a bunch of stuff to try on my pet sorc for after they changed pet damage scaling to be off of a hybrid of stats, and by the time that I was able to get it all together, the band was nerfed. I was going to try to run Infalliable Ether, Band, The ritualist set that gives 16% pet damage, and a spell damage or penetration set (Skoria). The idea was to stack a bunch of flat damage bonuses on my petsorc, use a charged staff front bar with overload occult. Thought it would do a ton of damage in spite of it being a non-crit setup. Denied - because of PVP....

Vevvev

Malacath's Ring didn't really get nerfed but tweaked. Sure the number isn't as high, but if you have any boosters to critical damage your critical hits will do more damage than base. It still boosts the damage of proc sets and now since crit hits are allowed the proc sets and abilities like Critical Surge that work based off critical hits will now fire.

Syrpynt

Vevvev wrote: »

Malacath's Ring didn't really get nerfed but tweaked. Sure the number isn't as high, but if you have any boosters to critical damage your critical hits will do more damage than base. It still boosts the damage of proc sets and now since crit hits are allowed the proc sets and abilities like Critical Surge that work based off critical hits will now fire.

Logical fallacy:
"You can still crit, so the damage will be just as good." The problem is that you aren't building for critical damage if you use this ring. So any set that gives critical chance bonus is actually a completely wasted slot, since critical damage bonus is more important here. (otherwise your critical hits are just the same as if it weren't critical).

If you can prove to me with an accurate theoretical calculation that -50% critical damage, while using sets/traits that give critical chance bonus, can stand on it's own rivaled against a critical build (after this nerf), then I will say I am dumb.

The problem is that the math I got is depressing:

Variables:
Crit chance (CC)
Non critical chance (NC)
Crit damage mult (CM)
Base damage, weapon/spell and resources (BD)

Simple theoretical stat strength formula =
CC*CM*BD + NC*BD = Total power

The point in a critical build is to empower the left portion of the equation CC*CM*BD.

The point to Malacath is to ignore that portion and focus solely on NC*BD.

[I'm ignoring penetration in this example as it is applied to damage based on total power]

An example of this is:

Critical build with buffs:
CC = 0.6 (60%)
CM = 1.9 (50% base + 40% bonuses)
BD = 3000
NC = 0.4 (40%)
TP1 = 3,420 (crit) + 1,200 (non crit)


Non-critical build, equivalent base damage required to equate to the critical damage bonuses:
CC = 0.1 (10%, only medium/light armor passives, let's say)
NC = 0.9 (90%)
CM = 1.0
TP2 = 4,620
4,620 = (0.1*1.0*BD2) + (0.9*BD2)
rearrange for BD2 (algebra)
BD2 = 4,620 / (0.1 + 0.9) = 4,620...
thus...
BD2 = 4,620 (including the 16% bonus)
BD3 = 3,881 before malacath is needed to equate. There are few raw damage and resource only sets that give this much difference compared to magicka sets. Goodluck finding an extra 881 boost to power to equate to critical.

Becuase the 3,000 base damage is kinda low, you can increase it to 4,000. But then the gap between critical and non-critical base damage gets even bigger. Also, critical hits and heals benefit from Shadow mundus. While many of the damage bonus sets that offer +500 weapon/spell damage only boost you damaging abilities.

This was all theoretical, and ignores common bonus sources such as jewelry enchants (because both builds have access to it).

Vevvev

Syrpynt wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Malacath's Ring didn't really get nerfed but tweaked. Sure the number isn't as high, but if you have any boosters to critical damage your critical hits will do more damage than base. It still boosts the damage of proc sets and now since crit hits are allowed the proc sets and abilities like Critical Surge that work based off critical hits will now fire.

Logical fallacy:
"You can still crit, so the damage will be just as good." The problem is that you aren't building for critical damage if you use this ring. So any set that gives critical chance bonus is actually a completely wasted slot, since critical damage bonus is more important here. (otherwise your critical hits are just the same as if it weren't critical).

If you can prove to me with an accurate theoretical calculation that -50% critical damage, while using sets/traits that give critical chance bonus, can stand on it's own rivaled against a critical build (after this nerf), then I will say I am dumb.

The problem is that the math I got is depressing:

Variables:
Crit chance (CC)
Non critical chance (NC)
Crit damage mult (CM)
Base damage, weapon/spell and resources (BD)

Simple theoretical stat strength formula =
CC*CM*BD + NC*BD = Total power

The point in a critical build is to empower the left portion of the equation CC*CM*BD.

The point to Malacath is to ignore that portion and focus solely on NC*BD.

[I'm ignoring penetration in this example as it is applied to damage based on total power]

An example of this is:

Critical build with buffs:
CC = 0.6 (60%)
CM = 1.9 (50% base + 40% bonuses)
BD = 3000
NC = 0.4 (40%)
TP1 = 3,420 (crit) + 1,200 (non crit)


Non-critical build, equivalent base damage required to equate to the critical damage bonuses:
CC = 0.1 (10%, only medium/light armor passives, let's say)
NC = 0.9 (90%)
CM = 1.0
TP2 = 4,620
4,620 = (0.1*1.0*BD2) + (0.9*BD2)
rearrange for BD2 (algebra)
BD2 = 4,620 / (0.1 + 0.9) = 4,620...
thus...
BD2 = 4,620 (including the 16% bonus)
BD3 = 3,881 before malacath is needed to equate. There are few raw damage and resource only sets that give this much difference compared to magicka sets. Goodluck finding an extra 881 boost to power to equate to critical.

Becuase the 3,000 base damage is kinda low, you can increase it to 4,000. But then the gap between critical and non-critical base damage gets even bigger. Also, critical hits and heals benefit from Shadow mundus. While many of the damage bonus sets that offer +500 weapon/spell damage only boost you damaging abilities.

This was all theoretical, and ignores common bonus sources such as jewelry enchants (because both builds have access to it).

Not saying it's better but that the extra versatility with game systems makes up for the damage nerf, in my opinion anyways. I'm a solo and PvP person so I don't chase meta DPS because it's not useful to me. I'm trying to balance survivability and damage on my DK so critical isn't something easy for me to stack up. And no matter what game you play critical hits always win if they exist and you can boost them. An item in such a game that removes the ability to score critical hits is like chopping your arm off in order to compete with the Olympic weight lifting champion.

PvP is where this ring will excel just like in the same vein that the Gaze of Sithis is a PvP item. What they sacrifice is too important in PvE to be worth what they give you outside super niche scenarios like a mistform exclusive tank.

ThePedge

Pearls - Very niche but can be used by healers in PvE content

Kilt - used everywhere in group PvE

Death Dealers Fete - Used in both group PvE, solo PvE, and PvP

Malacath - used everywhere in PvP

Torc - Niche but used in PvP

Gaze of Sithis - Niche but used in PvP

Pale Order - Can be used in 4man / solo content, WR holder for vMA and vVH uses it iirc

Wild Hunt - Has some applications in PvP, general open world gameplay. Heists, sacrements etc

Bloodlords has always been bad. Woofer mythic is bad, Thrassians went from way OP to bad. I know I'm missing a couple but in general mythics are widely used and add power to builds.

Fizzyapple

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

The problem with mythic items right now IMO is the fact that the changes to proc set damage scaling has made most monster sets useless, and there aren't really any adequate replacements for the monster sets that were more general use. Thrassian Stranglers? They're niche and situational. Whalers kilt? Same thing. The mythic ring that gives you additional resources? Also niche.

Monster helms - especially the damage dealing kind, were very much plug and play, fire and forget kind of items where you equip them and get the benefit without thinking about them, but these mythics are so situational that they aren't really a great/adequate replacement for monster sets across the board. Perhaps that will change with the release of more mythics, but it definitely feels like the mythics are only good in such narrow situations or on such narrow builds that your often better to just use mismatched monster pieces.

Your wrong about monster sets but that's just my opinion.. I feel this is actually the point though.. niches. They add options and variety no one size fits all set it and forget it its so much more interesting this way. I feel having options are good and I love changing my play style from a static one way or the highway to a dynamic one where I adapt and change depending on the situation. I have been doing this in dungeons for a long time... the moment I see my Tank isn't doing their job I have a sharpened weapon with one light kraghs on the ready.. split second. I do this in bgs after I size up my enemy. I have weapons with different traits and even sets and skills ready to change out the moment I know who my opponent is.. and some really good players demand I do this not with their words but actions because if I don't I die.. I think its fantastic really..

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

We've closed this thread given its age and given that some information may be out of date, as the last post was previously September 2021. If you wish to continue discussing this topic please create a new thread. Thank you for your understanding.