The Results Are In: Most Stam DKs Don't Enjoy Their Spammable

skinnycheeks

I took a poll on my YouTube page and over 2.2k people have voted now. Only 19% of the people that voted actually enjoy using Stone Giant.

The biggest reoccurring complaint was about the "clunkiness" of it. I think a lot of this perceived jank is due to the 0.4s cast time on the initial cast. Cast times aren't so bad when they are consistent. Take Templar's Biting Jabs/Puncturing Sweep for example, which is a much longer cast time but receives a lot better feedback. I think this is because you know that cast time is going to be with Jabs. But with it on only 1 in 4 casts of Stone Giant, it just makes it inconsistent and awkward.

For PvE groups, the debuff from Stone Giant is great and definitely worth having, but the damage from the skill itself is a little bit lacking to go along with the clunkiness. If you already have another DK in group running this skill, you are MUCH better off for damage going with a different main spammable.

I'd love to see this skill get tweaked to something people enjoy more. An idea I've seen tossed around a bit and I keep thinking back to is having it operate more like Flames of Oblivion, where you cast it once (and can repeatedly cast it if you choose to) but after that it auto-fires the rocks on its own. I think this would fit really well into the theme of the Dragonknight as they are all about that constant DoT pressure on their targets. And it wouldn't be out of line with other skills - think about how much Stam Warden's get from 1 cast of Sub Assault. Even if this did end up making it easier for Tanks to keep up, if it did good enough damage, Stam DKs would still run it too! Or you could give Stagger the Engulfing Flames/Alkosh treatment and force Tanks to really build for it if they want to get the full benefit. Having it require 6k weapon dmg to max out, like Alkosh, would definitely make it a bit more enticing for a lot of groups to have a DPS do it.

The bottom line is that Stam DKs have been at the bottom of the pack for DPS for a while now. The poll results are pretty clear, people don't like this skill much, and I think turning this into something more powerful and more enjoyable would do a ton for bringing Stam DKs closer to the pack. STAM DKS NEED LOVE TOO!

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_Kevin
@ZOS_Gilliam

Would really love if you guys would take the time to review this. THANK YOU

Sarannah

A poll on a non-eso site, which mostly attracts like-minded players, and where non-ESO players can vote too.

Not saying you are right or wrong, but the poll is highly unreliable.

Darkstorne

It's such a weird skill! And while the majority of players dislike it, they all seem to like different aspects of it and wish it would just focus on one of them. But how do you choose which to focus on in yet another redesign?

Personally I love the AOE part of it for example. When I tried it (melee 2h StamDK) that's what I'd use it for:
Stampede --> Noxious Breath --> Stone Giant AOE

Really nice AOE combo, but then I'd always just ignore the poop rocks because there were better abilities to use from that point on. And it made me wish I could just keep using the AOE part of Stone Giant as a spammable, maybe applying stagger with each hit, stacking up to 3 times, and at 3 stacks enemies are also stunned?

But I'd also be completely fine with it being a single target ranged poop rock without the AOE. So long as they focus on one or the other. I just hate that it keeps switching between the two. As a melee StamDK though, I'd really prefer the melee AOE. It looks good, it feels good, and then it becomes a poop rock and I ignore it.

I no longer slot it because of that problem. It's just too annoying.

skinnycheeks

Sarannah wrote: »

A poll on a non-eso site, which mostly attracts like-minded players, and where non-ESO players can vote too.

Not saying you are right or wrong, but the poll is highly unreliable.

I get what you are saying, and agree to some extent. But it is so lopsided I still think there has to be a good bit of truth in there.

skinnycheeks

Darkstorne wrote: »

It's such a weird skill! And while the majority of players dislike it, they all seem to like different aspects of it and wish it would just focus on one of them. But how do you choose which to focus on in yet another redesign?

Personally I love the AOE part of it for example. When I tried it (melee 2h StamDK) that's what I'd use it for:
Stampede --> Noxious Breath --> Stone Giant AOE

Really nice AOE combo, but then I'd always just ignore the poop rocks because there were better abilities to use from that point on. And it made me wish I could just keep using the AOE part of Stone Giant as a spammable, maybe applying stagger with each hit, stacking up to 3 times, and at 3 stacks enemies are also stunned?

But I'd also be completely fine with it being a single target ranged poop rock without the AOE. So long as they focus on one or the other. I just hate that it keeps switching between the two. As a melee StamDK though, I'd really prefer the melee AOE. It looks good, it feels good, and then it becomes a poop rock and I ignore it.

I no longer slot it because of that problem. It's just too annoying.

Interesting usage of it! Yeah, I agree, it is all over the place and think it still needs to find its identity.

Gundug

I agree it’s a weird skill to use. I like the initial slam when dealing with trash packs, since it does a ton of AOE damage, and the actual spammable portion of the skill is fine for me to use against single targets, but cycling back to the cast time portion of the skill causes problems at times when I need to block something but still want to block cast a damaging skill. If I lose track of where I am in the cycle, the stomp being activated means I take a full power hit to the face. Better awareness can keep that from happening, but I don’t carry two different spammables on my bar just for this situation, so I may just end up either doing nothing during the block, use my execute early to at least do some damage, or waste resources refreshing something else early.

It really feels to me like the two parts to this skill should have been two different morphs, although I understand why they wanted to keep the magicka morph.

colossalvoids

Didn't saw the poll but it's easy to predict the end result, stonefist honestly would be okay if made visually more enticing. People suggesting stamwhip not because it's performance but visuals and feel of weaving with it which is great. At this point I'd like at least some changes as not locking you in a cast time or actual FoO treatment, that would be even better.

By the way they can at least make whips scale better with stamina (Res cost also) so at least half of complaints would be gone, wink wink Rich.

ResidentContrarian

I happen to enjoy it very, very, much...

On my hybrid DK

I_killed_Vivec

Darkstorne wrote: »

It's such a weird skill! And while the majority of players dislike it, they all seem to like different aspects of it and wish it would just focus on one of them. But how do you choose which to focus on in yet another redesign?

Personally I love the AOE part of it for example. When I tried it (melee 2h StamDK) that's what I'd use it for:
Stampede --> Noxious Breath --> Stone Giant AOE

Really nice AOE combo, but then I'd always just ignore the poop rocks because there were better abilities to use from that point on. And it made me wish I could just keep using the AOE part of Stone Giant as a spammable, maybe applying stagger with each hit, stacking up to 3 times, and at 3 stacks enemies are also stunned?

But I'd also be completely fine with it being a single target ranged poop rock without the AOE. So long as they focus on one or the other. I just hate that it keeps switching between the two. As a melee StamDK though, I'd really prefer the melee AOE. It looks good, it feels good, and then it becomes a poop rock and I ignore it.

I no longer slot it because of that problem. It's just too annoying.

I used to use it like that, but it becomes too awkward. You slam into something, hit it with your poison breath, and the stones AOE and then you have these ranged rocks that you really don't want.

Alternatively, you're in melee range and need a ranged attack to take out some archers - first use of stones provides a useless AoE, you have to wait for the second to fire the stone. As usual with Stam DK you rely on weapon skills not class skills. You're better off with a bow on the other bar, switching to it for the ranged attack.

And now your attack can be:

Endless Hail -> Stampede -> Venomous Claw - > Noxious Breath -> Brawler

then spam brawler, breath, or bow skills.

The issue is that you are now reliant on weapon skills - and those daily endeavours where you have to kill 20 mobs using class skills become a pain. If you see a DK running round Spellscar spamming Noxious Breath, it's likely me

oterWitz

Sarannah wrote: »

A poll on a non-eso site, which mostly attracts like-minded players, and where non-ESO players can vote too.

Not saying you are right or wrong, but the poll is highly unreliable.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/580266/any-stam-dks-using-poo-rock/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/576588/do-you-use-stone-fail#latest
^A couple of discussions from the forums that I remembered seeing recently. They say largely the same thing iirc. Don't get me wrong, they are plenty flawed too, but I wanted to share for the sake of making the equivalent forum polls visible too.

I can't really say anything on the matter as my stamDK is my speed farmer, so he doesn't fight much. What I will say, and which has probably been said before, is that it reminds me of the sorc's Bound Armaments and, in turn, nightblade's bow. Both of these are also a little awkard (not as bad though) but do significant enough damage to be worth learning and using, especially the bow. I see the future of poo rock as either a delayed spammable like shalks or else smoothed into something like sorcs and nbs use. The former option is probably more appropriate for a DoT class though.

danthemann5

Honestly, I've never seen or heard another stam DK say, "I really like Poopfist" or anything to that effect. Every few weeks or so I will run into an enemy stam DK using it and immediately assume (correctly) they don't know what they're doing.

Clumsy ranged projectile cast time stun thing with weird mechanics? The class is called Dragon Knight. KNIGHT. What is knightly about that skill? When I think of knights, flinging flaming balls of poop at enemies is not what comes to mind. It's simply not a thing a sir would do.

Jack-0

It’s a horrible skill and I hate it, if we could just delete it and give DRAGON knights a more dragony skill that would be grand. How many fantasy dragons can you name that have some *** little floating pebbles to fight with? That’s right, none, because it’s an atrocious and laughable idea.

Give us a tail lash or a wing slap like actual ESO dragons can do. It could be physical damage in it’s stamina morph, and maybe it wouldn’t even have a mag morph but a tank one instead that provides a sweet effect like what the current idiotic stone fist ability does, only fun and rewarding. I know, right, no mag morph? The horror!!

You could even more or less recycle the reflective scales animation and add a bit of colour or something, and we’d still be grateful even with half-arsing it with recycled assets.

francesinhalover

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/580537/what-stam-class-needs-more-stam-morphs/p1

yup, people really want it, but i heard it was said in livestreams it will never happen.

Joy_Division

ZOS tried way to hard making it a complicated mini-game that serves as a unique group buff. All stam DKs wanted was a a close range spammable skill that set them apart as a brawler from other stamina specs.

VaranisArano

I can't imagine why Stam DKs don't enjoy
[Snip]

[Edited for inappropriate content]

Fennwitty

Agree. One or the other please: range or melee aoe.

I applaud the creativity that led to the current skill, but it doesn't work well in practice.

Mumbles_the_Tank

Fennwitty wrote: »

I applaud the creativity that led to the current skill, but it doesn't work well in practice.

I’m not sure that panic gluing a channel onto what was an already poorly received skill in terms of looks and functionality - just as a failed attempt to stop tanks using it - is really the sort of “creativity” any of us should be applauding.

The skill exemplifies everything that ZOS does wrong in a nutshell. Poorly thought out, pasted together, feedback ignored, asinine nonsense.

Ratzkifal

I still think Stonelance would be a cool spammable if it ever happened.
How do stones hurt you? It's either through their weight or by cutting or piercing you with their pointy bits. Poopfist tries to hurt by throwing rocks and people don't like how that looks and feels, so why not try out the cutting/piercing theme?

"A lance of solid rock forms around your arm which you thrust at your opponent to deal physical damage." Slap some additional effect onto it, like the one that increases all damage taken by a flat number, same as now minus the stacking mechanic and the weird two-part component, and you're done! Easy spammable that allows stamDKs to use sword&shield on their offensive bar in PvP, enabling their attrition-based playstyle.

Might not feel very draconic, but it's part of the "Earthen Heart" skill line anyway and it's both very earthy and very knightly.

Phaedryn

To be honest...I had never even considered using that skill as a spamable. I have always used the spamable from my weapon line. It never even crossed my mind to use this skill.

Vevvev

I personally like how it looks visually, but everyone I've talked to hates it for one reason or another. Some hate how it's ranged on a mostly melee kit, some hate the mandatory melee ranged AoE to start flinging ranged attacks, and some hate how it is required for some tank set ups due to the stagger effect because of the clankiness of the whole thing overall. It somehow manages to be more annoying to use than Imbue Weapon... somehow.

Urzigurumash

My preference is that this skill isn't even a spammable, but rather something best casted every 6 seconds, like Fragmented Shield, for Mountain's Blessing.

I believe there is an intended thematic element that "Warrior" classes do their instant melee damage with Weapon Skills, i.e., with their Weapons. In PvP I think there are ways outside of an instant melee spammable that we can have some unique advantage over Sorcs, Wardens, and Necros, no matter how mechanically convenient the idea of StamWhip is.

(PvP only comment)

aipex8_ESO

I use mostly weapon skills on my DK: Stampede (a lot, I run Maelstrom 2H, Unleashed Terror AND the new Rush of Agony which all enhance Stampede), Wrecking Blow for single targets (have to weave it just right though) and Brawler for multi target. The only DK skills I use are Molten Armaments and Flames of Oblivion.

Everest_Lionheart

I just threw this skill on a Zen’s MagDK for the hell of it and I have got to say despite the clunkiness of it the minimal DPS loss surprised me a bit. A 1.5 K loss on my regular Zen numbers because I put it in place of IL on my front bar. 85k down to 83.5. I’m interested to see how it performs in an optimized group setting. It’s easy enough to add into my rotation and maintain 2-3 stacks for 90%+ uptime.

That said I would hate if this were my spamable. But as for applications to hybrids builds or buff builds in trials I actually think this skill works.

Ippokrates

I really like whip, hopefully one day they will make stam or at least max stat version. But to Earthbenders we say no (and no, i am not hidden supporter of Fire Nation xd )

Sarannah wrote: »

A poll on a non-eso site, which mostly attracts like-minded players, and where non-ESO players can vote too.

Not saying you are right or wrong, but the poll is highly unreliable.

Are there any people on this forum that would said or vote otherwise?

Urzigurumash

skinnycheeks wrote: »

An idea I've seen tossed around a bit and I keep thinking back to is having it operate more like Flames of Oblivion, where you cast it once (and can repeatedly cast it if you choose to) but after that it auto-fires the rocks on its own. I think this would fit really well into the theme of the Dragonknight as they are all about that constant DoT pressure on their targets.

To add to my comment above, I very much agree this sounds like a cool idea. For PvP this provides us some Delayed Burst, something which, outside of Flames of Oblivion, we lack compared to Necro, Warden, and Sorc, the classes with whom we share melee instant spammables.

ResidentContrarian

Ippokrates wrote: »

I really like whip, hopefully one day they will make stam or at least max stat version. But to Earthbenders we say no (and no, i am not hidden supporter of Fire Nation xd )

Sarannah wrote: »

A poll on a non-eso site, which mostly attracts like-minded players, and where non-ESO players can vote too.

Not saying you are right or wrong, but the poll is highly unreliable.

Are there any people on this forum that would said or vote otherwise?

Yeah, there is at least one...me!

WrathOfInnos

You’re right about Stone Giant being clunky. I’d also like to add to the list of clunky spammables that players don’t enjoy:
- Crystal Frags cast time, with random instant procs to really throw off the rhythm (much like Stone Giant, but less predictable). It should really just be instant for normal casts and procs, with damage adjusted accordingly
- Templar Sweeps/Jabs with an animation much longer than the real channel duration
- Warden Cliff Racer: With it’s delayed impact and lack of a useful morph effect on SCR
- Necro Skulls: Objectively a good skill, but feels bad to weave and adds to Necro clunkiness

I believe many also dislike Elemental Weapon, Crushing Weapon and Crystal Weapon, but personally I think they all feel smooth so no complaints there.

It’s honestly shorter to list the spammables that universally feel good: Force Pulse/Crushing Shock, Funnel/Swallow, Whip, and the new Frost Reach. Pulsar and Sap Essence also work well (as AoE spammables).

spartaxoxo

Sarannah wrote: »

A poll on a non-eso site, which mostly attracts like-minded players, and where non-ESO players can vote too.

Not saying you are right or wrong, but the poll is highly unreliable.

It also had leading language, calling it poop rocks and telling them to ignore benefits or it.

Sample bias and leading question bias makes the poll something to be taken with a grain of salt.

Yasha

I love my stam dk but there is just no reason for me to put this skill on my bar. Imo the best way to work in a spamable stam dk skill would be to make the *** morph of lava whip into a spamable with a bleed dot or something (whips usually cause bleeding, and this synergizes with the dks other arsenal of dots).

Then take the cast time off stone fist and make it an aoe smash (think punching with a giant stone fist) that puts enemies off-balance. This would synergize with the dk whip skills that give extra effects to off-balanced targets, thus giving a player a reason to slot the skills.

Or just increase the damage by 30 percentage points (from 20% to 50% of copied damage, or a 250% increase) like the buff purifying light got.

TheForseti

The pole results are clear. Even factoring in bias, these results are overwhelming. People do not like Stone Giant as a spammable. A poison whip morph is very popular, as suggested by Alcast long ago (I would like to see the pole for that option). Stone Giant should be reserved for a "support spammable" for DPS. A poison whip would be a much better "selfish spammable" for DPS. Please, ZOS!

gamma71

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7285135 it's a trash skill they will never change.