Can we have a full list of sets working in no-cp?

GRXRG

You decided to completely make the no-cp campaigns no procs.

So can we have a solid real list of what works and what not?

It's pretty frustrating having to test things.

Gaze of sithis and heartland and wild hunt seems to work and you never stated them in your patch list.

Does malacath works? How I should figure it out? I have to put it and check advanced stats maybe, but would be way more simple to just give us a full list to be sure because some sets 5 pieces are a bit tricky and not immediately obvious if they are going to work or not.
Like master weapons, seems you allowed Master Bow, what about master 2h and master dw? Are they working or not? I Don't have a dummy to test damage.

Thanks.

Sluggy

There are a lot of sets that 'work'. Some actually 'work' better than they did before when in the no-proc campaign. Many of these were reported during the PTS.

I really think that ZoS needs to review their Quality Assurance process. Maybe they need more staff? Perhaps they need more time for testing, correction, and verification? Maybe better planning and management? Whatever it is, I think it's fair to say their current system isn't working as well as it could.

Many video game companies consider testing to be a hassle and testers to be low-skill workers that basically provide nothing to the development cycle. I hope that in time, these kinds of issues will lean the industry as a whole away from such silly and provably false beliefs.

Biro123

The thing is - I'm using my exact same build as before on my magblade. It included wild hunt. Aside from that, the other sets are in 'the lists'

Since Wild-Hunt still works, yet isn't in the lists, am I now an exploiter for using it? Is it a bug in the game? or are the patch notes wrong? or are we just misunderstanding them?

YandereGirlfriend

If it works it's not an exploit.

The fact that so many sets made it through actually makes Ravenwatch much more enjoyable to play in since it is closer to the ideal that people wanted when they desired "No Proc" - which is to say that cheesy "free damage" sets like Caluurion's are banned but that harmless stat sets like New Moon Acolyte and War Maiden are functioning.

Mapekz

I suspect that "no proc" actually means "no proc" now instead of what it was during Flames of Ambition where it was "no procs [which are set bonuses coded like abilities]." Recall that the reason there even was no proc testing back then was to observe performance issues with procs in Cyrodiil - and not necessarily combat balance issues. Even after Update 30, performance issues persisted in Gray Host more so than on Ravenwatch, likely due to the popularity but also the Champion Points in GH.

I have confirmed Heartland Conqueror, New Moon's Acolyte, Gaze of Sithis, and Ring of the Wild Hunt work properly in Ravenwatch despite not being listed on the patch notes. I understand why - they are all just stat modifiers instead of complicated conditional functions triggered every single time you, an ally, or an enemy pressed a button. I assume by the same logic that Malacath would also work.

However, I have confirmed that Burning Spellweave does not work as it is more in line with what people mean by the word "proc."

I would still love a comprehensive list of what is and what isn't a proc to be certain that I am not building for something that won't work, but on top of that I'd love to know whether no-proc is a rule for no-CP because of balance reasons or because of performance reasons. If it's only the latter, then I assume we regain our procs in the future and I would be very much in favor of that.

YandereGirlfriend

Mapekz wrote: »

I suspect that "no proc" actually means "no proc" now instead of what it was during Flames of Ambition where it was "no procs [which are set bonuses coded like abilities]." Recall that the reason there even was no proc testing back then was to observe performance issues with procs in Cyrodiil - and not necessarily combat balance issues. Even after Update 30, performance issues persisted in Gray Host more so than on Ravenwatch, likely due to the popularity but also the Champion Points in GH.

I have confirmed Heartland Conqueror, New Moon's Acolyte, Gaze of Sithis, and Ring of the Wild Hunt work properly in Ravenwatch despite not being listed on the patch notes. I understand why - they are all just stat modifiers instead of complicated conditional functions triggered every single time you, an ally, or an enemy pressed a button. I assume by the same logic that Malacath would also work.

However, I have confirmed that Burning Spellweave does not work as it is more in line with what people mean by the word "proc."

I would still love a comprehensive list of what is and what isn't a proc to be certain that I am not building for something that won't work, but on top of that I'd love to know whether no-proc is a rule for no-CP because of balance reasons or because of performance reasons. If it's only the latter, then I assume we regain our procs in the future and I would be very much in favor of that.

Quite right.

The basic heuristic to follow is if a set gives you a constant bonus - if it does then it is likely to work and if it does not then it likely will not. There are, of course, exceptions to that in either direction but in general it is good guidance.

I will add to the above, Ancient Dragonguard works as does Malacath as does Torc of all things. I have also heard rumors that Eternal Vigor works and provides a constant Mag/Stam bonus rather than dropping that in favor of a now-useless HP Regen bonus. If that's true then it was buffed for most users as a result of the changes.

I'd also add that this is a FAR superior implementation of "No-Proc" than before. It largely saves the good aspects of our current sets while successfully banning the most odious cheese sets. ZOS may have stumbled backwards upon this Goldilocks tuning but I would suggest to them that they keep it as it is.

Additionally, more stat-based "proc" sets could be added in future patches with no harm done to the spirit of the format.

Amottica

Sluggy wrote: »

There are a lot of sets that 'work'. Some actually 'work' better than they did before when in the no-proc campaign. Many of these were reported during the PTS.

I really think that ZoS needs to review their Quality Assurance process. Maybe they need more staff? Perhaps they need more time for testing, correction, and verification? Maybe better planning and management? Whatever it is, I think it's fair to say their current system isn't working as well as it could.

Many video game companies consider testing to be a hassle and testers to be low-skill workers that basically provide nothing to the development cycle. I hope that in time, these kinds of issues will lean the industry as a whole away from such silly and provably false beliefs.

No video company can afford to hire enough testers to ferret out every issue. That is why a test server system is a standard with MMO development. I have been in alpha and beta testing of other games and Zenimax opens these updates to player testing.

If you are on PC, how much time did you spend on the PTS?

YandereGirlfriend

Amottica wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

There are a lot of sets that 'work'. Some actually 'work' better than they did before when in the no-proc campaign. Many of these were reported during the PTS.

I really think that ZoS needs to review their Quality Assurance process. Maybe they need more staff? Perhaps they need more time for testing, correction, and verification? Maybe better planning and management? Whatever it is, I think it's fair to say their current system isn't working as well as it could.

Many video game companies consider testing to be a hassle and testers to be low-skill workers that basically provide nothing to the development cycle. I hope that in time, these kinds of issues will lean the industry as a whole away from such silly and provably false beliefs.

No video company can afford to hire enough testers to ferret out every issue. That is why a test server system is a standard with MMO development. I have been in alpha and beta testing of other games and Zenimax opens these updates to player testing.

If you are on PC, how much time did you spend on the PTS?

Of course one can never have enough testers but I don't think that anyone would argue that ZOS' testing procedures are exactly... robust. Based upon appearances, they don't even have automated testing, which is standard in any software development environment.

And let's not pretend like ZOS takes into consideration most of the feedback that players supply from the PTS period. There are limitless examples of players saying, "Uh, this isn't going to work the way that you think it will..." and ZOS failing to act on their advice. It isn't until several patches later that they sheepishly revert the change in question. So much drama could be avoided by simply listening to players while the PTS is active.

EF321

But what about food buff sets? BtB, Bone Pirate, uh, Green pact?

LtClungeX

I can confirm malacath works

L_Nici

There is a list in the patchnotes.

GRXRG

L_Nici wrote: »

There is a list in the patchnotes.

Sure but lot of sets were skipped, like malacath, wild hunt and you have to check them yourself one by one, and some you will only know once you are in combat or something.

vesselwiththepestle

Every single list in the patch notes is incomplete.

ZOS needs to provide a complete list of all the sets which are fully working, including all those mythic items. This is insane and very low Quality of Life. Imagine you want so change your build in three or four patches ago and you would still have to look up those old patch notes that are even incomplete.

Also when you are in no cp Cyrodiil, it should be noted on your character screen when a set is not working, probably similar to as if it were broken and needed repair.

Larcomar

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Quite right.

The basic heuristic to follow is if a set gives you a constant bonus - if it does then it is likely to work and if it does not then it likely will not. There are, of course, exceptions to that in either direction but in general it is good guidance.

I will add to the above, Ancient Dragonguard works as does Malacath as does Torc of all things. I have also heard rumors that Eternal Vigor works and provides a constant Mag/Stam bonus rather than dropping that in favor of a now-useless HP Regen bonus. If that's true then it was buffed for most users as a result of the changes.

I'd also add that this is a FAR superior implementation of "No-Proc" than before. It largely saves the good aspects of our current sets while successfully banning the most odious cheese sets. ZOS may have stumbled backwards upon this Goldilocks tuning but I would suggest to them that they keep it as it is.

Additionally, more stat-based "proc" sets could be added in future patches with no harm done to the spirit of the format.

I just tested EV; it works but, after jumping off a cpl of keeps, the rumour that it provides a constant mag / stam bonus appears to be untrue. I was getting health regen and losing the mag / stam.l

Still, this is positive. i just hope sets like BTB and BP work; if they do, this is exactly what no proc should have been - getting rid of the more outrageous "free damage" procs but not sustain sets...

edit - bah quotes

Larcomar

Just tested Bone pirate. Sadly the 5th piece is not working.

Honestly, they shd just add that, BTB and other obvious recovery sets to the list. I mean, no cp is kind of where you want those sets. And if amber plasm is in.....

Tigor

The list is complete, but now it seems that minds are getting confused. Defining mythical items as sets is the reason, since a set always has more then one item, like bikini's do and they need to be combined.

Should the mythical items be disabled also? I would say yes, because they are not on the list.

vesselwiththepestle

Tigor wrote: »

The list is complete, but now it seems that minds are getting confused. Defining mythical items as sets is the reason, since a set always has more then one item, like bikini's do and they need to be combined.

Although you are correct in terms of logic and semantics, the game actually calls mythic items "set": When I look at the info of my Ring of the Wild Hunt it says "Part of the Ring of the Wild Hunt Set (1/1 Items)".

They should be added to the list, as they are sets (in game lingo) and they work.

Larcomar

Yup. When I look under "collections" and "sets" they're in there. Maybe we should get them to remove them so we can be really consistent....

Jameson18

Can anyone confirm Ancient Dragonguard? I'm assuming if EV is working, Ancient Dragonguard should also then work?

Jameson18

Also, can anyone confirm Titanborn?

I'm on Xbox so.... Won't see the update for a week or two. Would like to make sure my builds are put together.

YandereGirlfriend

Jameson18 wrote: »

Can anyone confirm Ancient Dragonguard? I'm assuming if EV is working, Ancient Dragonguard should also then work?

Yes, Ancient Dragonguard works. Both parts of the bonus.

Jameson18

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Jameson18 wrote: »

Can anyone confirm Ancient Dragonguard? I'm assuming if EV is working, Ancient Dragonguard should also then work?

Yes, Ancient Dragonguard works. Both parts of the bonus.

Thanks! You made my day!

Joy_Division

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

Also when you are in no cp Cyrodiil, it should be noted on your character screen when a set is not working, probably similar to as if it were broken and needed repair.

Exaclty. If the game can recognize that it should not allow a set to function, then it ought to be able to use the information "this set doesn't function" to also put a broken sword or some other symbol to communicate that to players.

@Mapekz ZOS has told us this much. It originally was a test for performance. Then it interpreted the feedback during the test as something that players wanted on a permanent basis. So, they know it doesn't impact performance much and have made the changes because that is what they think enough of the playerbase wants.

Beardimus

Seen the list, what about MH?

Does Mighty Chudan work?

YandereGirlfriend

Beardimus wrote: »

Seen the list, what about MH?

Does Mighty Chudan work?

What is MH?

Mighty Chudan and Slimecraw are the only monster sets that are known to be working.

Sluggy

Amottica wrote: »

No video company can afford to hire enough testers to ferret out every issue. That is why a test server system is a standard with MMO development. I have been in alpha and beta testing of other games and Zenimax opens these updates to player testing.

If you are on PC, how much time did you spend on the PTS?

It's not a question of ferreting out every issue. In this case these are issues central to the point of the update itself and core the gameplay. I would hope that they'd have ways of automatically testing core gameplay systems each and every time they make a change. I'd also hope they would have at least some of their design and development time spent actually devising ways to test any additions, changes, or removals to those core gameplay systems and then creating, running, and acting on the results of those tests. Will it fix every problem? Certainly not. But I think this issue brought up here is a pretty obvious thing to miss. If they are going to change the rules to a campaign so that certain sets do or don't have certain bonuses and then publish a list based on that information I'd like to think maybe someone thought to at least run a test or two to see what the numbers say on those exact things. Failing that, maybe just log in and try it out? That's part of what QA testers are for after all.

To be clear I'm not really that upset about these particular bugs. Like YandereGirlfriend, I actually really like them (for now, who know what darkness lies in the shadows of broken sets yet)! But, I have concerns when I see such obvious oversights in basic QA being made.

And while we are on the topic. There really - like, REALLY needs to be some data-driven UI feedback to players as to which items are and aren't working and to what effect that may be. Not everyone is going to be reading the forums and who wants to mention the link to the list every single time someone in zone chat asks? Not that the list would be accurate anyway. And on that note we're just begging the question, aren't we?

Tigor

If some non listed sets are fully working, can someone show some prove? Until then the list stays reliable.

GRXRG

Tigor wrote: »

If some non listed sets are fully working, can someone show some prove? Until then the list stays reliable.

Slot wild hunt and you have the speed, even tho it's not mentioned working.
Slot malacath and in the stats you have the 16% and -50% crit damage so it works.

The list is far from being reliable.

Tigor

GRXRG wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

If some non listed sets are fully working, can someone show some prove? Until then the list stays reliable.

Slot wild hunt and you have the speed, even tho it's not mentioned working.
Slot malacath and in the stats you have the 16% and -50% crit damage so it works.

The list is far from being reliable.

I had malacath in the pocket and slotted it in ravenwatch and can now confirm it's functionality. I would say a miscommunication. But on the other hand malacath is not really a proc set, because it is has constant effects.
Good point to start this discussion. The list could have a note.

GRXRG

Tigor wrote: »

GRXRG wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

If some non listed sets are fully working, can someone show some prove? Until then the list stays reliable.

Slot wild hunt and you have the speed, even tho it's not mentioned working.
Slot malacath and in the stats you have the 16% and -50% crit damage so it works.

The list is far from being reliable.

I had malacath in the pocket and slotted it in ravenwatch and can now confirm it's functionality. I would say a miscommunication. But on the other hand malacath is not really a proc set, because it is has constant effects.
Good point to start this discussion. The list could have a note.

Yeah that is why I asked a complete full list from ZoS.
Some sets are easy to test once you log in the campaign, others you have to force yourself in combat to check, if doesn't work you have to return to base and change it.

Also I like to use master dual wield and master 2h in some of my build, they stated master bow works in the list, but completely ignored the other master weapons, even master destro, how do I know if master 2h is doing more damage and the effect is active? It is so annoying.

And I am pretty sure some guys procced Zoal monster helm on me, I tried myself and it doesn't proc or maybe it's because and sometimes does sometimes not, no idea.

CSose

The only way to know what works and what doesn't is going to be to try it and see. Nobody's going to post the name of a set they are using that's working and isn't supposed to.