"Sneak running" is NOT immersive.

Sandokhan

This has bothered me for some time now.
Isn´t there really a way of having our vampire characters "run" while sneaking?
I mean, keep the speed from the Dark Stalker passive, but let them actually crouch and move like normal sneak.
As it is, it´s kinda silly. Also, it overrides some of the personalities custom animations, like the Thief one.

Sandokhan

NOT sneak run, I should say. Kinda new to the forums, haven´t figured out how to edit yet.

Merforum

Yeah it doesn't make sense that a vampire would sneak anyway. And it makes NB too quick. That passive should probably just tweak sprint speed/cost instead.

LoneStar2911

I agree. Sometimes i have to stop moving just to make sure i crouch down to make sure I’m actually sneaking. I get paranoid. lol

zelaminator

Merforum wrote: »

Yeah it doesn't make sense that a vampire would sneak anyway. And it makes NB too quick. That passive should probably just tweak sprint speed/cost instead.

Don't mess with my build make the animations/personalities work, but keep your hands off my movement speed

martinhpb16_ESO

Oh soon turning into another nerf NB thread

Leave my vampblade alone

Bucky_13

Merforum wrote: »

Yeah it doesn't make sense that a vampire would sneak anyway. That passive should probably just tweak sprint speed/cost instead.

Agreed it doesn't make sense for vampires to have that passive. It would be better if nightblades have it exclusively instead since they are the masters of stealth. They should be faster than everyone else in sneak.

Darkstorne

Immersion might be the wrong word? No one would crouch walk like video game characters do if trying to be stealthy. They'd just tread lightly. It's a weird video game obsession. Seriously, try crouch-walking around your house and let me know how your legs hold up. Then go do it again at running speed

Kiralyn2000

Even ignoring the whole "immersion" (ugh) thing...

Merforum wrote: »

Yeah it doesn't make sense that a vampire would sneak anyway.

Wait, what?


Show me a vampire in fiction (aside from the mindless crazed they're-just-tougher-zombies rampaging ones) who doesn't sneak. Creeping out of the shadows, biting people by surprise in alleys, appearing seductively in bedrooms ... sneaking is totally a vampire thing.

TiaFrye

Sneak run is what you'll see as red smoke from vampire npcs. So yes, it's hella immersive.

Dragonlord573

Gonna be honest, I purposefully push my stick just far enough so that my vampire stays crouched when sneaking and not running. It's slightly slower sure, but it looks better

Merforum

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Even ignoring the whole "immersion" (ugh) thing...

Merforum wrote: »

Yeah it doesn't make sense that a vampire would sneak anyway.

Wait, what?


Show me a vampire in fiction (aside from the mindless crazed they're-just-tougher-zombies rampaging ones) who doesn't sneak. Creeping out of the shadows, biting people by surprise in alleys, appearing seductively in bedrooms ... sneaking is totally a vampire thing.

It seems like you are thinking about dracula's butler who is always creeping around. 100% of vampires either run really fast, turn into mist or bat form, or just walk right up to their victim and hypnotize them, NEVER SNEAK. A vampire sneaking is like superman driving around in bat mobile, no one would buy it.

ResidentContrarian

If they got rid of that passive, do you know how many PvP players will come on these forums and complain in a billion topics, about how "vampire is useless" or some other drivel, after having their cheese melted?

Please don't attract them.

Merforum

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

If they got rid of that passive, do you know how many PvP players will come on these forums and complain in a billion topics, about how "vampire is useless" or some other drivel, after having their cheese melted?

Please don't attract them.

I already see them. They are the same ones who were whining about the skill cost increase and losing 10% mag regen when they revamped. There were 100 threads about REMOVE/CURE VAMP cause they ruined it. Then people realized the passives were OP for NB and everyone stopped for a while. Now it is, NB needs that to be viable.

Ippokrates

Not immersive? Every spy movie or cloak&dagger story says otherwise

Punches_Below_Belt

I don’t think of vampires as sneaking so much as expanding and being masked by shadows which is a very different vibe.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Crouching for sneaking is the immersion breaking thing

Xargas13

Well, I think they can allow them to run while in stealth, but I would change the animation somehow, since what we have now doesn't really fit. It looks like he is running on treadmill at times.

Vevvev

Merforum wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

If they got rid of that passive, do you know how many PvP players will come on these forums and complain in a billion topics, about how "vampire is useless" or some other drivel, after having their cheese melted?

Please don't attract them.

I already see them. They are the same ones who were whining about the skill cost increase and losing 10% mag regen when they revamped. There were 100 threads about REMOVE/CURE VAMP cause they ruined it. Then people realized the passives were OP for NB and everyone stopped for a while. Now it is, NB needs that to be viable.

I see very few people who use the stage 4 passive, and those that do like myself enjoy it a lot due to how it can turn classes like Dragonknights into stealth focused ambushers. I only saw a couple people complaining about the loss of the regeneration passive with much, much, MUCH more complaints coming from the implementation of the rework itself. Also, if you use certain vampire abilities like Blood for Blood your sustain is better now than it was when the regeneration passive existed.

Gilvoth

zelaminator wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Yeah it doesn't make sense that a vampire would sneak anyway. And it makes NB too quick. That passive should probably just tweak sprint speed/cost instead.

Don't mess with my build make the animations/personalities work, but keep your hands off my movement speed

this ^
well said.

spartaxoxo

Merforum wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Even ignoring the whole "immersion" (ugh) thing...

Merforum wrote: »

Yeah it doesn't make sense that a vampire would sneak anyway.

Wait, what?


Show me a vampire in fiction (aside from the mindless crazed they're-just-tougher-zombies rampaging ones) who doesn't sneak. Creeping out of the shadows, biting people by surprise in alleys, appearing seductively in bedrooms ... sneaking is totally a vampire thing.

It seems like you are thinking about dracula's butler who is always creeping around. 100% of vampires either run really fast, turn into mist or bat form, or just walk right up to their victim and hypnotize them, NEVER SNEAK. A vampire sneaking is like superman driving around in bat mobile, no one would buy it.

I have seen a lot of vampires use deception to get their prey. Lurking in shadows, disguising themselves as bats or regular people, etc. Yes they can chase down their prey easily if catches on, but they generally prefer not to do that because evading detection is part of their survival techniques since they are vulnerable in sunlight.

Merforum

Vevvev wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

If they got rid of that passive, do you know how many PvP players will come on these forums and complain in a billion topics, about how "vampire is useless" or some other drivel, after having their cheese melted?

Please don't attract them.

I already see them. They are the same ones who were whining about the skill cost increase and losing 10% mag regen when they revamped. There were 100 threads about REMOVE/CURE VAMP cause they ruined it. Then people realized the passives were OP for NB and everyone stopped for a while. Now it is, NB needs that to be viable.

I see very few people who use the stage 4 passive, and those that do like myself enjoy it a lot due to how it can turn classes like Dragonknights into stealth focused ambushers. I only saw a couple people complaining about the loss of the regeneration passive with much, much, MUCH more complaints coming from the implementation of the rework itself. Also, if you use certain vampire abilities like Blood for Blood your sustain is better now than it was when the regeneration passive existed.

I stage 4 when it first came out for me and my brother to bypass every mob to do daily pledges. There were very few people who didn't complain about the revamp and some still do. I think they pretended it wasn't the 10% regen but everyone knows that was why it was on most toons and why they cured after revamp. But me, you and I can't think of anyone else on forum that actually said revamp is fine, even great for some things. Then some whined enough to get mist nerfed. Now they are whining about undeath, but I digress.

I guess this thread is about sneak animation but since vampires don't sneak, rather since they are supposed to only come out at night there is usually shadows and they create mist but walk standing straight up, so the animation seem accurate in that. But like I said as far as lore and making NB more powerful, that passive should be sprint speed/cost NOT sneak stuff. The level 2 passive seems silly too getting w/s damage for coming out of sneak/inv/mist, that should be if you use a vamp ability you get it.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Merforum wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Even ignoring the whole "immersion" (ugh) thing...

Merforum wrote: »

Yeah it doesn't make sense that a vampire would sneak anyway.

Wait, what?


Show me a vampire in fiction (aside from the mindless crazed they're-just-tougher-zombies rampaging ones) who doesn't sneak. Creeping out of the shadows, biting people by surprise in alleys, appearing seductively in bedrooms ... sneaking is totally a vampire thing.

It seems like you are thinking about dracula's butler who is always creeping around. 100% of vampires either run really fast, turn into mist or bat form, or just walk right up to their victim and hypnotize them, NEVER SNEAK. A vampire sneaking is like superman driving around in bat mobile, no one would buy it.

Vampires are more than just classic Dracula. In plenty of folktales and fiction they are sneaky. In one of my favourite fictional universes with vampires , World of Darkness, vampires sneak a lot. Sneaking is even some clans schtick. In Elder Scrolls they do a lot of hiding and sneaking too.

Sephyr

Merforum wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

If they got rid of that passive, do you know how many PvP players will come on these forums and complain in a billion topics, about how "vampire is useless" or some other drivel, after having their cheese melted?

Please don't attract them.

I already see them. They are the same ones who were whining about the skill cost increase and losing 10% mag regen when they revamped. There were 100 threads about REMOVE/CURE VAMP cause they ruined it. Then people realized the passives were OP for NB and everyone stopped for a while. Now it is, NB needs that to be viable.

That's quite the generalization there. One that I know is coming from the lack of participation in those threads on your part. Many of us weren't complaining about the 10% bonus to Supernatural Recovery. We were complaining about the lack of consistency of what developers were stating (a more 'visceral' approach to vampirism) and got what we have now (a not so 'visceral' approach').

We 'gave up' because developers were insistent on making Blood Frenzy tick all the boxes of being a vampire. Not because of Supernatural Recovery. Anyone who was in those threads back then knows this and no offense my friend, I didn't see you in those very often.

Konstant_Tel_Necris

If you like crawling so much, then better if ZOS create feral vampire personality with similar animations that bloodfiends use.

Sandokhan

Firsty, when I said immersion, I didn´t mean it in a real life sneaking situation.
I realize that we don´t usualy crouch when we´re trying to move undetected, unless we´re trying to avoid been seen.
I mean immersion in a gameplay sense.
I just think it´s more neat if the character could actually crouch like everyone else.
At least we could use the personalities custom animations.

And secondly, no, I don´t think the passive needs any tweaking. It´s fine as it is.

I just wish the animation was changed, nothing else.

Vevvev

Merforum wrote: »

I stage 4 when it first came out for me and my brother to bypass every mob to do daily pledges. There were very few people who didn't complain about the revamp and some still do. I think they pretended it wasn't the 10% regen but everyone knows that was why it was on most toons and why they cured after revamp. But me, you and I can't think of anyone else on forum that actually said revamp is fine, even great for some things. Then some whined enough to get mist nerfed. Now they are whining about undeath, but I digress.

I guess this thread is about sneak animation but since vampires don't sneak, rather since they are supposed to only come out at night there is usually shadows and they create mist but walk standing straight up, so the animation seem accurate in that. But like I said as far as lore and making NB more powerful, that passive should be sprint speed/cost NOT sneak stuff. The level 2 passive seems silly too getting w/s damage for coming out of sneak/inv/mist, that should be if you use a vamp ability you get it.

Oh, I hate the vampire rework and find it an absolute mess of poorly thought out ideas, but I learned how to exploit it's shortcomings and use it. I am calling for vampire abilities like Vampiric Drain and Mesmerize to be changed for the better, but the one thing I believe the devs did right is the passives. Sneaking, more resilience, and invisibility are all tools of the TES vampire and I believe the sneak running and dark powers are immersive unlike the OP.

The regeneration passive imo is quite trivial in the end and the reason it was so good was the passive that removed the health recovery detriment at stage 2, but what many people forget thanks to rose colored glasses is that stage 2 had a painful 15% bonus flame damage debuff on it. Also another reason for the complaining that you assume is due to the loss of the recovery passive is actually the opposite with the addition of the non-vampire cost increase. The loss of the recovery passive is fine since the bonus 300 spell damage when I leave mistform is actually really good, especially since it boosts my heals going out of mistform as a Dragonknight in PvP so I can stay in the fight. The non-vampire cost increase means that no matter how hard you try, or how low of a stage you go, you are punished for picking vampire. Want to be a healer? Well now your sustain is worse than if you were a mortal. Want to be a tank but built 60k+ health and your resource pools are small? Too bad, you're a vampire and you better have Introspection, chug potions, or heavy attack often. Wanna DPS in a dungeon, but need the healing from the healer? Too bad, for switching to regular skills to be healed by others you're hit with a sustain nerf and your spammable that lets you be healed is outclassed by literally everything else. Sucks even more if you're a stamina build who can't even use it.

zelaminator

Konstant_Tel_Necris wrote: »

If you like crawling so much, then better if ZOS create feral vampire personality with similar animations that bloodfiends use.

Already made

Eviction

Neither is summoning a flaming tiger out of your [snip]

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

Sephyr

Vevvev wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

I stage 4 when it first came out for me and my brother to bypass every mob to do daily pledges. There were very few people who didn't complain about the revamp and some still do. I think they pretended it wasn't the 10% regen but everyone knows that was why it was on most toons and why they cured after revamp. But me, you and I can't think of anyone else on forum that actually said revamp is fine, even great for some things. Then some whined enough to get mist nerfed. Now they are whining about undeath, but I digress.

I guess this thread is about sneak animation but since vampires don't sneak, rather since they are supposed to only come out at night there is usually shadows and they create mist but walk standing straight up, so the animation seem accurate in that. But like I said as far as lore and making NB more powerful, that passive should be sprint speed/cost NOT sneak stuff. The level 2 passive seems silly too getting w/s damage for coming out of sneak/inv/mist, that should be if you use a vamp ability you get it.

Oh, I hate the vampire rework and find it an absolute mess of poorly thought out ideas, but I learned how to exploit it's shortcomings and use it. I am calling for vampire abilities like Vampiric Drain and Mesmerize to be changed for the better, but the one thing I believe the devs did right is the passives. Sneaking, more resilience, and invisibility are all tools of the TES vampire and I believe the sneak running and dark powers are immersive unlike the OP.

The regeneration passive imo is quite trivial in the end and the reason it was so good was the passive that removed the health recovery detriment at stage 2, but what many people forget thanks to rose colored glasses is that stage 2 had a painful 15% bonus flame damage debuff on it. Also another reason for the complaining that you assume is due to the loss of the recovery passive is actually the opposite with the addition of the non-vampire cost increase. The loss of the recovery passive is fine since the bonus 300 spell damage when I leave mistform is actually really good, especially since it boosts my heals going out of mistform as a Dragonknight in PvP so I can stay in the fight. The non-vampire cost increase means that no matter how hard you try, or how low of a stage you go, you are punished for picking vampire. Want to be a healer? Well now your sustain is worse than if you were a mortal. Want to be a tank but built 60k+ health and your resource pools are small? Too bad, you're a vampire and you better have Introspection, chug potions, or heavy attack often. Wanna DPS in a dungeon, but need the healing from the healer? Too bad, for switching to regular skills to be healed by others you're hit with a sustain nerf and your spammable that lets you be healed is outclassed by literally everything else. Sucks even more if you're a stamina build who can't even use it.

I'm very much in the same boat. I've lived without Supernatural Recovery even through Morrowind when resources/sustain was nerfed into the darn ground. I didn't use it then, I didn't use it after, and I certainly wouldn't use it now. Why did I use it in the first place? It was essentially a raider's training wheels. Once I got the hang of my rotation, I looked at my resource usage and adjusted my build accordingly so that I could drop it. There was no need for me to even have Supernatural Recovery after that and I used those skill points for better things (abilities and passives that I don't normally use, but are useful in raiding environments). The only thing I used in the vamp line after that was Undeath and that was dodgy as you well know because it didn't work, but at least offered a modicum of protection for just a small enough window to squeeze on by.

Really, the biggest thing that I'd probably fight for having a change would be the abilities you suggested so that they'd at least be useful as well as do something else with the non-vampire cost increase which is actually why most people cured. They literally couldn't sustain themselves in a casual setting. Veterans of the game can, but why would they? Unless they can find niche uses for it like you or myself, it's just easier in the long run (and on their in-game wallets) to drop Vampirism and just run a mortal build. Supernatural Recovery wouldn't fix that. Adjusting the drawback of non-vampire skill costs would and it'd probably bring some of those folks back because it'd be a step in the right direction.

But of course, the thread isn't about that — so I'ma head out.

Sailor_Palutena

My nightblade is so fast in sneak mode, she doesn't even squat, just runs normally all dark.