Random Dungeons Rewards Overhaul

temerley

With the fake roles having no repercussion, I suggest a new system to get the daily random rewards:

1. Group queue: only need to complete
2. Solo queue: complete plus
-tank: maintain taunt for X amount of time
-healer: heal X amount of damage
-dps: deal X amount of damage

This would eliminate fakers that don’t taunt, heal, or do crap damage, will also prevent *** dps to skip ads and stuff.

What do you guys think?

superryan94

Bad idea.
With this you demotivate new players who can not live up to that standard yet.
And the experienced players can find a work around regardless.

Making it this way will be more of a problem for new players who are really trying their best to get better than those who can do stuff and don't really need it to much, but do it regardless.

spartaxoxo

If it was limited to vet for increased rewards. Bar should also be fairly low for damage but not so low they can't pass dps checks and get out damaged by a full support tank

hafgood

Sorry but no, I often run a random with friends, we may all be dd's so one fake tanks, another fake heals. I see no reason why we should be penalised by a scheme such as this.

redspecter23

I agree that it's a very bad idea. Forcing players into X amount of time doing something sounds good in theory, but what if the group kills all the bosses and adds so fast that the actual legit tank can't meet the requirements they are actually trying to hit? Where do you set the cutoff for dps? 5k? 25k? No matter where you put it, some players won't hit the minimum even though they are actually trying.

You have identified a problem (fake roles) and then propose a solution that would force players into a playstyle that might not even solve the problem.

The best solution to fake roles is to have zero expectations from group finder and group with friends and guildmates first. Grab someone from zone next if needed and as an absolute last resort, hit up group finder, spin the wheel and see what random person you get. Boot if necessary.

MirandaSharp

Just get rid of the 10 stones reward for doing random normals and put that into random vet.
Players running normal non-vet dungeons are running sub CP160 gear anyway and have no need for transmute crystals.
That would get rid of all the 1000+ CP players speed running random normals populated by beginners trying to learn.

spartaxoxo

hafgood wrote: »

Sorry but no, I often run a random with friends, we may all be dd's so one fake tanks, another fake heals. I see no reason why we should be penalised by a scheme such as this.

If you had a full group, you wouldn't be.

spartaxoxo

redspecter23 wrote: »

I agree that it's a very bad idea. Forcing players into X amount of time doing something sounds good in theory, but what if the group kills all the bosses and adds so fast that the actual legit tank can't meet the requirements they are actually trying to hit? Where do you set the cutoff for dps? 5k? 25k? No matter where you put it, some players won't hit the minimum even though they are actually trying.

Then they should be the ones that need to find a guild.

redspecter23

spartaxoxo wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I agree that it's a very bad idea. Forcing players into X amount of time doing something sounds good in theory, but what if the group kills all the bosses and adds so fast that the actual legit tank can't meet the requirements they are actually trying to hit? Where do you set the cutoff for dps? 5k? 25k? No matter where you put it, some players won't hit the minimum even though they are actually trying.

Then they should be the ones that need to find a guild.

I'd say that most people would benefit from running with like minded players most times, whether that's guild, friends or zone. This common expectation from people that 3 other randoms should all run content the way they themselves see as appropriate is very confusing to me.

Amottica

temerley wrote: »

-tank: maintain taunt for X amount of time
-healer: heal X amount of damage
-dps: deal X amount of damage

Tank - Most trash does not need to be taunted unless the DDs are pretty bad. As such requiring a tank to maintain taunt for a percentage of the game is a poor measurement, and pretty much would not work.

Healer - a good group takes much less damage than lesser-skilled groups. They also are better at mitigating heavy damage. As such this is a poor measurement.

DDs - Even requiring them to do X amount of damage would be a poor measurement since some dungeons have more mechanics which can lower DPS. Even requiring them to do X amount of damage during the entire dungeon would have to be based on each dungeon as they are not the same. That is to complex.

Further, all of these punish skilled groups that form their own groups and do not use the trinity.

In the end, the best option is to take a little time required to form one's own group. One of my guilds is great for this and I am certain there are more out there for those interested in running group content.

temerley

Amottica wrote: »

Tank - Most trash does not need to be taunted unless the DDs are pretty bad. As such requiring a tank to maintain taunt for a percentage of the game is a poor measurement, and pretty much would not work.

Maybe absorbed damage is better? Maintain boss taunt?

Amottica wrote: »

Healer - a good group takes much less damage than lesser-skilled groups. They also are better at mitigating heavy damage. As such this is a poor measurement.

Why? There's already overhealing and people run spc.

Amottica wrote: »

DDs - Even requiring them to do X amount of damage would be a poor measurement since some dungeons have more mechanics which can lower DPS. Even requiring them to do X amount of damage during the entire dungeon would have to be based on each dungeon as they are not the same. That is to complex.

Yeah, but this can be lowered to cater casuals.

Amottica wrote: »

Further, all of these punish skilled groups that form their own groups and do not use the trinity.

That's why there's a group queue.

Amottica wrote: »

In the end, the best option is to take a little time required to form one's own group. One of my guilds is great for this and I am certain there are more out there for those interested in running group content.

Not everyone can run with their guild, not everyone lives in say, continental america or europe.

Darrett

I’d say they don’t need to modify mechanics of rewards, it’s a design problem. Dungeons need to be (re)designed so that there are healing and tanking components that can’t be bypassed through damage output.

It isn’t the fault of the players that ZOS created content encouraging maximum output, and easy self healing that makes other roles unnecessary.

temerley

Darrett wrote: »

I’d say they don’t need to modify mechanics of rewards, it’s a design problem. Dungeons need to be (re)designed so that there are healing and tanking components that can’t be bypassed through damage output.

It isn’t the fault of the players that ZOS created content encouraging maximum output, and easy self healing that makes other roles unnecessary.

Yeah, poor role tutorial too (if there is one cause I don't remember any)

zelaminator

MirandaSharp wrote: »

Just get rid of the 10 stones reward for doing random normals and put that into random vet.
Players running normal non-vet dungeons are running sub CP160 gear anyway and have no need for transmute crystals.
That would get rid of all the 1000+ CP players speed running random normals populated by beginners trying to learn.

Wait what.? So you want to eliminate the best/easiest way of farming crystals.? Heck no.. tons of players do RND to get crystals.. why would you cut that away from so many people

spartaxoxo

redspecter23 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I agree that it's a very bad idea. Forcing players into X amount of time doing something sounds good in theory, but what if the group kills all the bosses and adds so fast that the actual legit tank can't meet the requirements they are actually trying to hit? Where do you set the cutoff for dps? 5k? 25k? No matter where you put it, some players won't hit the minimum even though they are actually trying.

Then they should be the ones that need to find a guild.

I'd say that most people would benefit from running with like minded players most times, whether that's guild, friends or zone. This common expectation from people that 3 other randoms should all run content the way they themselves see as appropriate is very confusing to me.

And by "way they themselves see as appropriate," you mean that they don't want to carry people incapable of contributing their fair share.

There are probably hundreds of ways of hitting more than 5k dps. If you cannot manage to even do that, then you aren't doing your job. And there is nothing confusing about people not wanting to be exploited by randoms.

Amottica

temerley wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Tank - Most trash does not need to be taunted unless the DDs are pretty bad. As such requiring a tank to maintain taunt for a percentage of the game is a poor measurement, and pretty much would not work.

Maybe absorbed damage is better? Maintain boss taunt?

Amottica wrote: »

Healer - a good group takes much less damage than lesser-skilled groups. They also are better at mitigating heavy damage. As such this is a poor measurement.

Why? There's already overhealing and people run spc.

Amottica wrote: »

DDs - Even requiring them to do X amount of damage would be a poor measurement since some dungeons have more mechanics which can lower DPS. Even requiring them to do X amount of damage during the entire dungeon would have to be based on each dungeon as they are not the same. That is to complex.

Yeah, but this can be lowered to cater casuals.

Amottica wrote: »

Further, all of these punish skilled groups that form their own groups and do not use the trinity.

That's why there's a group queue.

Amottica wrote: »

In the end, the best option is to take a little time required to form one's own group. One of my guilds is great for this and I am certain there are more out there for those interested in running group content.

Not everyone can run with their guild, not everyone lives in say, continental america or europe.

1. Absorb damage would be worse. It would force poor playing style. A good tank can avoid a lot of damage by stepping out or dodge rolling a cleave. Using damage taken would encourage standing in stupid.
2. Forcing healing when healing is not needed does not seem to be a wise direction.
3. Define casual? Those doing extremely low damage are very casual. It also ignores that each dungeon is very different and this would have to be designed per dungeon making it complex.
4. Since the other points have issues no need to discuss the group queue.
5. There are guilds that play at all times. The Guild Finder can help. Even then, I have people on during the day and evening that are happy to join in for a dungeon. Heck, there are AUS guilds on the servers and players from both major continents that where the servers are located that play on the other server and find a way.

wolfie1.0.

MirandaSharp wrote: »

Just get rid of the 10 stones reward for doing random normals and put that into random vet.
Players running normal non-vet dungeons are running sub CP160 gear anyway and have no need for transmute crystals.
That would get rid of all the 1000+ CP players speed running random normals populated by beginners trying to learn.

The differences between normal and vet in dungeons is so different that learning in normals teaches you bad habits for vet. Especially in full groups. Doing them in dous or solo is a lot better.

wolfie1.0.

temerley wrote: »

With the fake roles having no repercussion, I suggest a new system to get the daily random rewards:

1. Group queue: only need to complete
2. Solo queue: complete plus
-tank: maintain taunt for X amount of time
-healer: heal X amount of damage
-dps: deal X amount of damage

This would eliminate fakers that don’t taunt, heal, or do crap damage, will also prevent *** dps to skip ads and stuff.

What do you guys think?

Won't work because there are dps that will just pull ahead of the tank to ensure they get good values or to troll the tank.

Like I said in other posts no matter what you do players are going to learn how to cheese the system.

Amottica

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

temerley wrote: »

With the fake roles having no repercussion, I suggest a new system to get the daily random rewards:

1. Group queue: only need to complete
2. Solo queue: complete plus
-tank: maintain taunt for X amount of time
-healer: heal X amount of damage
-dps: deal X amount of damage

This would eliminate fakers that don’t taunt, heal, or do crap damage, will also prevent *** dps to skip ads and stuff.

What do you guys think?

Won't work because there are dps that will just pull ahead of the tank to ensure they get good values or to troll the tank.

Like I said in other posts no matter what you do players are going to learn how to cheese the system.

Very good point.

spartaxoxo

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

temerley wrote: »

With the fake roles having no repercussion, I suggest a new system to get the daily random rewards:

1. Group queue: only need to complete
2. Solo queue: complete plus
-tank: maintain taunt for X amount of time
-healer: heal X amount of damage
-dps: deal X amount of damage

This would eliminate fakers that don’t taunt, heal, or do crap damage, will also prevent *** dps to skip ads and stuff.

What do you guys think?

Won't work because there are dps that will just pull ahead of the tank to ensure they get good values or to troll the tank.

Like I said in other posts no matter what you do players are going to learn how to cheese the system.

There is never going to be a perfect solution, but that doesn't mean anything. If it's an improvement on what we have, then that's better.

redspecter23

spartaxoxo wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I agree that it's a very bad idea. Forcing players into X amount of time doing something sounds good in theory, but what if the group kills all the bosses and adds so fast that the actual legit tank can't meet the requirements they are actually trying to hit? Where do you set the cutoff for dps? 5k? 25k? No matter where you put it, some players won't hit the minimum even though they are actually trying.

Then they should be the ones that need to find a guild.

I'd say that most people would benefit from running with like minded players most times, whether that's guild, friends or zone. This common expectation from people that 3 other randoms should all run content the way they themselves see as appropriate is very confusing to me.

And by "way they themselves see as appropriate," you mean that they don't want to carry people incapable of contributing their fair share.

There are probably hundreds of ways of hitting more than 5k dps. If you cannot manage to even do that, then you aren't doing your job. And there is nothing confusing about people not wanting to be exploited by randoms.

I'd like to think we agree on many aspects. If someone in any given group isn't playing in a way that three other people agree with, they will be removed potentially. This can be low dps, zerging, not performing role, annoying pets or any reason really. Like minded players doesn't necessarily mean elite players or casual players. It just means players that share many playstyle traits with each other. A casual player with low dps likely won't want to group with a fake tank zerger with 50k+ killing everything before they can even get there and the zerger probably doesn't care too much about the low dps casual either.

One could examine why these types of players get grouped together to begin with. A newer player may need assistance to complete a dungeon and they queue for that reason. An elite player likely does not need any help, but they do want the rewards from the random queue so they are forced into a group with 3 others.

One could make the argument that allowing premade groups of any size to queue for randoms instantly and skip the queue system entirely could remove many problems from the queue. Elite zergers will just solo or duo queue as it's faster. New players get a queue with players that actually want to be there, removing at least some of the "toxic" players. The counter argument is that there will be less backfill. I'd say if it only really removes players that wouldn't want a full group anyway, that's a minor loss overall if it creates a healthier group finder experience.

Hapexamendios

No, I often do randoms with guild mates and we 4 dps most of the time.

kargen27

I still like the idea of allowing people to join the queue and select an option to be in a non traditional group. Then if the queue can't fill traditional groups it just grabs the first four at the front of the queue that do not care and throws them in a group.

The problem is how long DPS sits in the group. If they could opt into a group that doesn't care if they get a healer or tank they waits times would decrease and probably decrease by quite a bit.

bmnoble

Just put a limit on the number of characters who can get the 10 stones from their daily dungeon, something like 5 characters per account, if people don't feel the need to run as many characters as possible through the group finder each day, we might be able to cut down on the number of people using fake roles to skip their place in the queue and rush through the dungeons as fast as possible.

They might even bother to make a mix of 5 actual tanks or healers to do there dungeon runs.

Bouldercleave

If a decent player can solo most non DLC dungeons, does it really matter what makes up a four man group?

I know that sounds like a sarcastic question, but it's really not. I don't group much and have soloed all the possible (a couple are not possible solo due to mechanics) on several different classes. In honesty, it wouldn't really matter who I was with if I could solo it anyway.

Does the difficulty change based on how many people are in the group?

spartaxoxo

Hapexamendios wrote: »

No, I often do randoms with guild mates and we 4 dps most of the time.

That would have no impact on 4 person groups.

hackdrag0n

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

No, I often do randoms with guild mates and we 4 dps most of the time.

That would have no impact on 4 person groups.

It would actually. 4 person groups who want the random daily for transmutes and keys still have to enter via the group finder - just like solo players.

JJOtterBear

Hard NO to gatekeeping content. period.

SkaraMinoc

I'm a healer and frequently do more than 50% of the dps (~30k dps in heal build). It would not be fair.

spartaxoxo

hackdrag0n wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

No, I often do randoms with guild mates and we 4 dps most of the time.

That would have no impact on 4 person groups.

It would actually. 4 person groups who want the random daily for transmutes and keys still have to enter via the group finder - just like solo players.

Except the opening post said there would be a group queue with no requirements, as literally the first point of the thread. I don't know how so many missed it but that's already been addressed by this opening post, so it's not a criticism that applies to this idea.

zelaminator

bmnoble wrote: »

Just put a limit on the number of characters who can get the 10 stones from their daily dungeon, something like 5 characters per account, if people don't feel the need to run as many characters as possible through the group finder each day, we might be able to cut down on the number of people using fake roles to skip their place in the queue and rush through the dungeons as fast as possible.

They might even bother to make a mix of 5 actual tanks or healers to do there dungeon runs.

Again, no, stop trying to limit it for those of us who farm crystals.. it won't stop people from using fake roles, it will only harm people.. really really bad idea