Hybridization of Light & Medium Armours

Ippokrates

For all unware of upcoming change, an article on Eso Uni: https://eso-u.com/articles/armor_bonuses_penalties_passives_and_skills (ignore the date, read the content).

Long story short: there might be an important change to light & medium armour passive which would:

1. transfer all crit chance to light armour (max 7%)

2. give medium armour increased crit dmg & healing (max 14%)

The change itself is interesting but i don't think that at this moment ESO is ready for that change, Why?

1. sustain bonuses still are intact, what could cause a problem with applying light armours for stamina chars & vice versa - if they wanted hybridization maybe they should think about breaking sustain for types of resource as well - for example give light recovery for both while extend medium discount for magicka too (just an option)

2. I am not convince that balance will be kept - after a lot of experimentation with thief & shadow mundus, I've notice that pure change of 10% crit chance for 18% crit damage is not so easy to balance and will largely depends on total statistics of crit chance. In case of lower values (and medium armour user will have much lower statistics) overall dmg is droping. Only cirt chance above 60% can provide balanced results (if you got different results, please share)

3. BUT for those stamina classes or builds that have guaranteed crit strike (crit charge, cloak, MA) additional 14% might be a real game changer (yeah, i am looking at you. NB ;p ).

4. Also, an attempt of hybridization IMHO would have a sense if ZOS would first reevalute most armours in the game, because at this point, except undaunted, few craftable & monster sets, I don't think that ESO equipment is ready for such step - sets are simple too one-minded in design to offer a player a real selection of options.

So what is your opinion - is it step in a good direction or maybe ZOS should rethink this move as too rush & not prepared?

Everest_Lionheart

Yay

I like it because it opens up the door to build diversity in stam toons especially. We can slap on some of those mag support sets and not get locked out of as much content. Sets have been heading towards mag and stam bonuses for a while now and it’s a step in the right direction but still needs work.

My worry is that medium armor will be under utilized with all of the focus on crit. I think medium armor needs a little more incentive to wear because losing the sustain by switching to light isn’t really going to hurt most stam classes anyway because we have other sources of sustain available to us.

I think they need a better solution for monster sets that what they have currently as well. It’s pretty much only support wearing monster sets now with everyone running around in mythics. The 2pc bonuses need to be bumped up to make it a real choice between mythic + 1pc or full monster set.

The undaunted passive needs a rework as well. Nobody runs a mix of armor for the bonus anymore. Nobody wears more than 2 types and that’s because the new mythic comes in medium weight which puts mag users in 6-1 setup. Maybe add a line of crit to that passive and give people a reason to wear monster sets again.

Arbiter7070

Yay

For PVP this change is great. This is going to allow mag builds to take advantage of the great passives of medium armor such as increased wep/spell dmg, increased dodge rolls, increased movement speed, reduced area damage after dodge rolls, and it’s going to give mag classes access to major evasion with shuffle/elude. For instance a melee mag build (with a stam execute) with a class such as a dragonknight is going to be way more possible. Mag users won’t be tied to light armor and won’t have to run quite as much heavy. This change is very good and healthy for the PVP balance between Mag and Stam. It doesn’t solve everything but it’s a great step. Now I would like to see light armor get stam AND mag recovery, and medium armor get a small ability cost percentage reduction.

StarOfElyon

Yay

I love the changes to armor.

Amottica

Yay

The poll seems more agreeing or disagreeing with why OP does not like the changes rather than a poll about the changes themselves.

I take no issue with the crit or crit damage applying to both mag and stam as long as there is a difference between the two and the sustain does that.

jaws343

Yay

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

I like it because it opens up the door to build diversity in stam toons especially. We can slap on some of those mag support sets and not get locked out of as much content. Sets have been heading towards mag and stam bonuses for a while now and it’s a step in the right direction but still needs work.

My worry is that medium armor will be under utilized with all of the focus on crit. I think medium armor needs a little more incentive to wear because losing the sustain by switching to light isn’t really going to hurt most stam classes anyway because we have other sources of sustain available to us.

I think they need a better solution for monster sets that what they have currently as well. It’s pretty much only support wearing monster sets now with everyone running around in mythics. The 2pc bonuses need to be bumped up to make it a real choice between mythic + 1pc or full monster set.

The undaunted passive needs a rework as well. Nobody runs a mix of armor for the bonus anymore. Nobody wears more than 2 types and that’s because the new mythic comes in medium weight which puts mag users in 6-1 setup. Maybe add a line of crit to that passive and give people a reason to wear monster sets again.

I'm thinking somewhat opposite for medium. I have a few builds for PVP in mind that will be dropping 5 light and running 3/3/1, or even 4/2/1 with 4 med. The damage penalties of running light armor can be lowered and you gain spell damage as well. Really going to have the potential to boost mag survivability and damage just by swapping out a few armor pieces. Likely forced to run at least one crafted set to make it work well, but it's a viable option with something like shackle or new moon as a base to build from.

Froil

Just make medium armor the "damage armor", like it is for Companions. Since the game's been headed in a very hybridized direction, anyway. The biggest problem with it is all current light armor sets meant for mag spec, which will all need to be changed to medium armor, either people will need to refarm/stickerbook or the gear will automatically change to medium.

As for light arrmor, make it the "support" armor. Increase buff and debuff durations, reduce cost of healing abilities or other such and remove those awful penalties.

alberichtano

Froil wrote: »

Just make medium armor the "damage armor", like it is for Companions. Since the game's been headed in a very hybridized direction, anyway. The biggest problem with it is all current light armor sets meant for mag spec, which will all need to be changed to medium armor, either people will need to refarm/stickerbook or the gear will automatically change to medium.

As for light arrmor, make it the "support" armor. Increase buff and debuff durations, reduce cost of healing abilities or other such and remove those awful penalties.

That would mean that pretty much no one would ever use light armor. Support is just not a thing in this game, heck, healing is barely a thing anymore, trials aside. :-/

Agree on removing the redonc penalties for both light and heavy armor.

Ippokrates

Nay

Amottica wrote: »

The poll seems more agreeing or disagreeing with why OP does not like the changes rather than a poll about the changes themselves.

I take no issue with the crit or crit damage applying to both mag and stam as long as there is a difference between the two and the sustain does that.

The whole point was to address this particular change, which is imho move in right direction BUT in current form wasn't prepare to well and i can bet that most builds will end up with medium armour and Mech Acuity xd

Amottica

Yay

Ippokrates wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The poll seems more agreeing or disagreeing with why OP does not like the changes rather than a poll about the changes themselves.

I take no issue with the crit or crit damage applying to both mag and stam as long as there is a difference between the two and the sustain does that.

The whole point was to address this particular change, which is imho move in right direction BUT in current form wasn't prepare to well and i can bet that most builds will end up with medium armour and Mech Acuity xd

Yes, I noticed that since the lead into the poll was a long discussion describing the basis for your opinion that the game was not ready for such changes. I merely noted that the poll can be easily confused for a validation of your stated oppijnion.

I did find it interesting that part of the reasoning is that there were still differences between mag and stam builds since there are other means in the game to homogenize some stats. However, that is probably best discussed in a different thread.

Ippokrates

Nay

Amottica wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The poll seems more agreeing or disagreeing with why OP does not like the changes rather than a poll about the changes themselves.

I take no issue with the crit or crit damage applying to both mag and stam as long as there is a difference between the two and the sustain does that.

The whole point was to address this particular change, which is imho move in right direction BUT in current form wasn't prepare to well and i can bet that most builds will end up with medium armour and Mech Acuity xd

Yes, I noticed that since the lead into the poll was a long discussion describing the basis for your opinion that the game was not ready for such changes. I merely noted that the poll can be easily confused for a validation of your stated oppijnion.

I did find it interesting that part of the reasoning is that there were still differences between mag and stam builds since there are other means in the game to homogenize some stats. However, that is probably best discussed in a different thread.

Well, this thread is as good as any other regarding these differences

I think the greatest problem with division between magic & stamina skills is a fact that in TES games they were very distinctive diffences between spells (and a lot of them) & combat abilities (only few and mainly based on skills & perks). Skyrim slightly change that reducing amount of spells and their scope, while introducing shouts that could be used by any build as an "Ultimate".

The issue I have with ESO is that this division between magic & stamina abilities seems... really superficial. And in many ways pointless. Because do we really need to assume that lotus morph or hidden blade that teleport players 20 meters ahead are not magicka skill but somehow stamina? The same with vigor or rally? Somehow combat skills are healing player. Or DK morphs - so if a skill is using fire it is magic, but if it is using poison (you could use in TES only when you known alchemy) it is suddenly stamina. Or necro & disease. Is it somehow reflecting that warriors usually do not maintain hygiene so their skill can spread defile? ^^

I am not sure, but i think it was Skinny Cheeks who made a short video about hybrid builds where he stated one thing that really got me thinking: at the beginning all characters are hybrid characters, because they are using all available skills. And even if you are starting as wanna-be-warrior, first you need to level up your skills through magic, because most of the class-based abilities are magicka. So maybe, just maybe, it would be better if instead of damage scaling, magicka & stamina pools were kept only as a resource pool? Then we would have better choice of abbilites to use. And it would be possible to make more balance builds because those 20-30k primary resource pool on top of your secondary resource, which is an equivalent of 2000-3000 based dmg in skills and 500-750 dmg in LA/HA, would not force you to use only magicka or only stamina sets, skills or weapons.

Then we could play with armours and manipulate with their bonuses, but now... i wonder how people would keep their sustain in anything that is not trial group. Will their trade weapon/spell glyphs on their jewelry? Or maybe change sets from w/s dmg to sustain?

Because now, and it is kinda funny, it looks that introduction of hybrid armours, which are imho design rather to solo gameplay, will force people to fight in group. Because synergies would become far more op than now ^^

Amottica

Yay

Ippokrates wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The poll seems more agreeing or disagreeing with why OP does not like the changes rather than a poll about the changes themselves.

I take no issue with the crit or crit damage applying to both mag and stam as long as there is a difference between the two and the sustain does that.

The whole point was to address this particular change, which is imho move in right direction BUT in current form wasn't prepare to well and i can bet that most builds will end up with medium armour and Mech Acuity xd

Yes, I noticed that since the lead into the poll was a long discussion describing the basis for your opinion that the game was not ready for such changes. I merely noted that the poll can be easily confused for a validation of your stated oppijnion.

I did find it interesting that part of the reasoning is that there were still differences between mag and stam builds since there are other means in the game to homogenize some stats. However, that is probably best discussed in a different thread.

Well, this thread is as good as any other regarding these differences

and my original comment was not that you expressed your opinion, but that it confuses what the poll is about. That might be why only a small number of players have responded.

That was all. It was merely my related thoughts.

Sun7dance

Meh

Totally bulls.hit in my eyes!
This change is so unnecessary and in the end not consequent!
If magickas really want to run 5 pieces of middle armour now (or staminas light) they can almost only do it with crafted sets.
Imagine a new medium armour meta in raids coz of the new Crimson Oath’s Rive set and the Alkosh change.
Magickas in middle Julianos or New Moon?
If we get no medium armour meta the current imbalance between staminas and magickas in raids would become even bigger!
If magickas would run 5p. middle they can play with shuffle, but if staminas would run 5p. light they still can't use the shield.

So what's the sense of this change?

StarOfElyon

Yay

Sun7dance wrote: »

Totally bulls.hit in my eyes!
This change is so unnecessary and in the end not consequent!
If magickas really want to run 5 pieces of middle armour now (or staminas light) they can almost only do it with crafted sets.
Imagine a new medium armour meta in raids coz of the new Crimson Oath’s Rive set and the Alkosh change.
Magickas in middle Julianos or New Moon?
If we get no medium armour the current imbalance between staminas and magickas in raids would become even bigger!
If magickas would run 5p. middle they can play with shuffle, but if staminas would run 5p. light they still can't use the shield.

So what's the sense of this change?

Very few magic builds can use the shield.

Andre_Noir

Sun7dance wrote: »

So what's the sense of this change?

The sense is that nobody cares about mannequin lovers because all of you will be the on the same copy-paste builds in few days after patch no matter what it will change

Athan1

It's too late in the game's development to fundamentally change how armor works.

ResidentContrarian

I think the changes are good, and that mag-stam splits are bad for overall game balance, overall enjoyment, and a shift away from the game's original intentions.

Roylund

Yay

I don't understand the hate. Mag was at a disadvantage in PvP because they couldn't stack spell damage as efficiently as Stam could weapon damage. This change was long overdue for Mag that was already punished enough by having a weaker armor class and no reliable execute like Stam has. Now Stam should also be closer to Mag in PvE, what's there to hate?

Ippokrates

Nay

Roylund wrote: »

I don't understand the hate. Mag was at a disadvantage in PvP because they couldn't stack spell damage as efficiently as Stam could weapon damage. This change was long overdue for Mag that was already punished enough by having a weaker armor class and no reliable execute like Stam has. Now Stam should also be closer to Mag in PvE, what's there to hate?

Where do you see hate?

People are concern because this change is extremely important BUT it doesn't look like well designed.

You know how we will end up?

Both magicka & stamina will stick to their armours because except trial groups keeping sustain would be a drama BUT magicka builds would take maul and get massive penetration that would beat any medium armour or combine slightly weaker pen with crit chance of bow or dagger, which mean, everyone would need to go for heavy, real heavy armour.

And stamina would combine dmg bonus with massive crit dmg aaaand NB would be rulling again. Eventually people with Mechanical Acuity.

Instead of vixer and ballgroups we will have festival of oneshoters. Or maybe they will drop dmg battlespirit to 20%? ^^

fizl101

I'm not a theorycrafter at all, but at the moment I am struggling to understand how it will improve my PVE Stamplars life. Stam sets tend to come in medium, I can't reconstruct them in light in order to get some crit chance and pen (talking dungeon and trial sets). I guess I will end up with a light monster piece (or two if not wearing kilt) and the rest medium as usual and lose crit chance

xHotguy6pack

Nay

Medium armor going to still be the best armor and light is still going to be completely useless in pvp unless you play mag sorc or a bomber/ganker.

Ippokrates

Nay

fizl101 wrote: »

I'm not a theorycrafter at all, but at the moment I am struggling to understand how it will improve my PVE Stamplars life. Stam sets tend to come in medium, I can't reconstruct them in light in order to get some crit chance and pen (talking dungeon and trial sets). I guess I will end up with a light monster piece (or two if not wearing kilt) and the rest medium as usual and lose crit chance

Well, probably as always, they took meta sets like Tzogvin and Kilt and make comparison - sure, than results of crit chance vs crit dmg could be similar. But most players running in anything else then meta, might have a problem, because under cetrain treshold (i would say around 60% crit chance) crit hit wouldn't be efficient enough. Especially in terms of poor ESO RNG, where margin of error for crit chance vs crit hits could be really huge, even up to 10%.

Everest_Lionheart

Yay

fizl101 wrote: »

I'm not a theorycrafter at all, but at the moment I am struggling to understand how it will improve my PVE Stamplars life. Stam sets tend to come in medium, I can't reconstruct them in light in order to get some crit chance and pen (talking dungeon and trial sets). I guess I will end up with a light monster piece (or two if not wearing kilt) and the rest medium as usual and lose crit chance

It’s not really going to change much in either the stam or mag meta but it will open the door for hybrids. As I understand it all classes remain within a few % up or down off their DPS from the current patch wearing the same equipment. Those wearing crafted sets have more flexibility. Sets like deadly took a hit but will now activate off all dots. If you can run a strong dot build on stam and pair it with a set like Bahsei you may be surprised how it performs.

I’ve been experimenting myself on Stamden with Bahsei + AY plus vMA flame staff on current patch and still hitting upwards of 94K. It’s way out of the box, the rotation is way more complicated to manage but the dmg potential is off the chart. By contrast in a more meta build (AY+Rele) I hit 103K. That shows you the importance of rotation over you equipment. Unless they change the fundamentals of how combat works the numbers won’t really change. When it all shakes out you should be within 2-3K of your numbers so long as you use appropriate damage sets.

fizl101

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

I'm not a theorycrafter at all, but at the moment I am struggling to understand how it will improve my PVE Stamplars life. Stam sets tend to come in medium, I can't reconstruct them in light in order to get some crit chance and pen (talking dungeon and trial sets). I guess I will end up with a light monster piece (or two if not wearing kilt) and the rest medium as usual and lose crit chance

It’s not really going to change much in either the stam or mag meta but it will open the door for hybrids. As I understand it all classes remain within a few % up or down off their DPS from the current patch wearing the same equipment. Those wearing crafted sets have more flexibility. Sets like deadly took a hit but will now activate off all dots. If you can run a strong dot build on stam and pair it with a set like Bahsei you may be surprised how it performs.

I’ve been experimenting myself on Stamden with Bahsei + AY plus vMA flame staff on current patch and still hitting upwards of 94K. It’s way out of the box, the rotation is way more complicated to manage but the dmg potential is off the chart. By contrast in a more meta build (AY+Rele) I hit 103K. That shows you the importance of rotation over you equipment. Unless they change the fundamentals of how combat works the numbers won’t really change. When it all shakes out you should be within 2-3K of your numbers so long as you use appropriate damage sets.

Thank you, I currently run Deadly and Rele (unless its a lag fest like last night and couldn't keep the stacks up because of group wide lag spikes). I'm not particularly a fan of rele, I like more fun sets like Aegis Caller when not doing vet trial content. I'll take a look at Bahsei and see if it would suit me, thanks

Edit - just saw that it is spell based, I might need to look at an alternative unless it is also hybridised as most of my skills are stam morphs

Everest_Lionheart

Yay

fizl101 wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

I'm not a theorycrafter at all, but at the moment I am struggling to understand how it will improve my PVE Stamplars life. Stam sets tend to come in medium, I can't reconstruct them in light in order to get some crit chance and pen (talking dungeon and trial sets). I guess I will end up with a light monster piece (or two if not wearing kilt) and the rest medium as usual and lose crit chance

It’s not really going to change much in either the stam or mag meta but it will open the door for hybrids. As I understand it all classes remain within a few % up or down off their DPS from the current patch wearing the same equipment. Those wearing crafted sets have more flexibility. Sets like deadly took a hit but will now activate off all dots. If you can run a strong dot build on stam and pair it with a set like Bahsei you may be surprised how it performs.

I’ve been experimenting myself on Stamden with Bahsei + AY plus vMA flame staff on current patch and still hitting upwards of 94K. It’s way out of the box, the rotation is way more complicated to manage but the dmg potential is off the chart. By contrast in a more meta build (AY+Rele) I hit 103K. That shows you the importance of rotation over you equipment. Unless they change the fundamentals of how combat works the numbers won’t really change. When it all shakes out you should be within 2-3K of your numbers so long as you use appropriate damage sets.

Thank you, I currently run Deadly and Rele (unless its a lag fest like last night and couldn't keep the stacks up because of group wide lag spikes). I'm not particularly a fan of rele, I like more fun sets like Aegis Caller when not doing vet trial content. I'll take a look at Bahsei and see if it would suit me, thanks

Edit - just saw that it is spell based, I might need to look at an alternative unless it is also hybridised as most of my skills are stam morphs

Everyone has access to mages guild and undaunted. Orbs on a stam DPS is actually quite strong in group content and actually brings utility to the team. Degeneration also gives major sorcery boosting your spell damage. You can always run consuming trap as a dot or even scalding rune in addition to wall of elements with a VMA back bar.

On my Stamden I run wall, degen, orbs and winters revenge which is a class skill. To keep mag low enough sometimes I have to sub a cast of a spamable with exploding wall. It can be tricky but remember everyone has access to other skill lines to keep mag low enough.

The 15% boost you get from Bahsei is when you mag is completely drained but you can keep it low enough to get 10–12% which is slightly stronger than Kinras. The question is with the new deadly changes will it exceed the damage output of Relequen. That depends on how many dots you can keep up at all times. It’s tricky but doable.

BloodyStigmata

Nay

I think if they're going to completely gut crit chance on medium armor, maybe make it so focusing on crit isn't clearly the optimal way of going about maxing dps. Also maybe maybe offer bonuses to medium armor while in melee range and to light armor while at a range, this way you can actually incentivize playing melee? I don't know, all I really know is that I hate this change and feel like the distinction between magicka and stamina builds is becoming less and less noticeable, to the point where there's just DPS builds in general.

As it stands now, you'll be expected to run both light and medium regardless of whether or no you're magicka or stamina--whereas before you ran light or medium in accordance to your role. Now there is no nuance to it. In PVE you'll run as much light as you can to get as much crit chance as you can, then make up the difference with sets--this because you aren't a magicka or stamina dps anymore, you're just a dps, and of course being a DPS you're expected and demanded to run high crit builds and stay out of melee range, because that's how you optimize damage and not die.

Which of course further bolsters the notion that you have no freedom in your build and that experimenting with off-meta sets and abilities is just an effort in futility. God forbid, between this and the proc set nerfs, there's less build freedom than there's ever been. To most of the endgame playerbase who's been all too happy to conform this unreasonable standard, this will just be a bump in the road. To everyone else who wants to have fun building their character? I feel like this was the final nail in the coffin. At least we still have normal dungeons though.

At the very least, maybe overhaul the sticker book so that any set can be reconstructed in any weight, so that we actually can run any set we want in any way we want? Maybe hybridize the rest of the DPS sets while you're at it too since the distinction doesn't matter any more.

As far as PVP goes, nothing is going to change there. Players will adapt to the new meta and then move on to the next thing to whine about like they always do, inevitably resulting in something else getting nerfed, something else getting buffed, and the cycle will start over again. Meanwhile PVE builds suffer as a result. Like always.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Meh

I get the arguments for doing so, and I think it some situations it is nice. Even something as simple as a magic DPS wearing a kilt now gets a small buff, or rather removes the drawback of having a medium piece slotted. It also removes some of the grind or necessity to min/max things like monster set weights, etc.

There has clearly been a big push to hybridize sets. Everything new seems to scale off your max resource and give double bonuses in the 2-4 bonus. I already posted in another thread, but it feels like a lazy approach to me.

At the extreme end of things (we arent there yet), I feel like this heavily favors stamina builds TBH. The only real advantage to magic will be skill selection, but there are a lot of stamina morphs these days. Otherwise, if everything scales off your max resource, why wouldn't I dump every thing into stam, which means I will never run out of roll dodge, block, break free, and will still have enough of a base mag pool to cast the handful of skills I need that require magic.

PVP has been going down that road for a while now (Stamina is clearly more powerful than mag in PVE and has been for a while), and I don't think PVE is far behind. Stam DPS is off the charts this patch. Sure stamina has draw backs (mostly about range vs melee) but if they are doing 15-20% more DPS, good groups will figure out how to stack stamina.

Ippokrates

Nay

BloodyStigmata wrote: »

I think if they're going to completely gut crit chance on medium armor, maybe make it so focusing on crit isn't clearly the optimal way of going about maxing dps. Also maybe maybe offer bonuses to medium armor while in melee range and to light armor while at a range, this way you can actually incentivize playing melee? I don't know, all I really know is that I hate this change and feel like the distinction between magicka and stamina builds is becoming less and less noticeable, to the point where there's just DPS builds in general.

As it stands now, you'll be expected to run both light and medium regardless of whether or no you're magicka or stamina--whereas before you ran light or medium in accordance to your role. Now there is no nuance to it. In PVE you'll run as much light as you can to get as much crit chance as you can, then make up the difference with sets--this because you aren't a magicka or stamina dps anymore, you're just a dps, and of course being a DPS you're expected and demanded to run high crit builds and stay out of melee range, because that's how you optimize damage and not die.

Which of course further bolsters the notion that you have no freedom in your build and that experimenting with off-meta sets and abilities is just an effort in futility. God forbid, between this and the proc set nerfs, there's less build freedom than there's ever been. To most of the endgame playerbase who's been all too happy to conform this unreasonable standard, this will just be a bump in the road. To everyone else who wants to have fun building their character? I feel like this was the final nail in the coffin. At least we still have normal dungeons though.

At the very least, maybe overhaul the sticker book so that any set can be reconstructed in any weight, so that we actually can run any set we want in any way we want? Maybe hybridize the rest of the DPS sets while you're at it too since the distinction doesn't matter any more.

As far as PVP goes, nothing is going to change there. Players will adapt to the new meta and then move on to the next thing to whine about like they always do, inevitably resulting in something else getting nerfed, something else getting buffed, and the cycle will start over again. Meanwhile PVE builds suffer as a result. Like always.

Well, today i tested exactly the same setting with new armour passives and I got few thousand dps more. But i was using kilt so it compensates lost of crit chance (I wonder how players in early game would do).

Now i turned my main stamplar into solo spec and i am running through vet dungeons with stampede and Sellistrix. Never thought I would switch jabs for anything but here we are... ^^

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I get the arguments for doing so, and I think it some situations it is nice. Even something as simple as a magic DPS wearing a kilt now gets a small buff, or rather removes the drawback of having a medium piece slotted. It also removes some of the grind or necessity to min/max things like monster set weights, etc.

There has clearly been a big push to hybridize sets. Everything new seems to scale off your max resource and give double bonuses in the 2-4 bonus. I already posted in another thread, but it feels like a lazy approach to me.

At the extreme end of things (we arent there yet), I feel like this heavily favors stamina builds TBH. The only real advantage to magic will be skill selection, but there are a lot of stamina morphs these days. Otherwise, if everything scales off your max resource, why wouldn't I dump every thing into stam, which means I will never run out of roll dodge, block, break free, and will still have enough of a base mag pool to cast the handful of skills I need that require magic.

PVP has been going down that road for a while now (Stamina is clearly more powerful than mag in PVE and has been for a while), and I don't think PVE is far behind. Stam DPS is off the charts this patch. Sure stamina has draw backs (mostly about range vs melee) but if they are doing 15-20% more DPS, good groups will figure out how to stack stamina.

Well, I am having the impression that mages are already throwed out of the ship, with all the self healing stuff, so no there is no point in having healer. It is far better to get 3rd DPS ^^

So armour or not, most dungeon and trials are designed without mechanics that would required healing through on a level sufficient for good healer - dmg is ridiculously low or it is one shotter - and because it is usually telegraphed, stamina specs have better chance to roll or run from dmg -_-

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Meh

Ippokrates wrote: »

BloodyStigmata wrote: »

I think if they're going to completely gut crit chance on medium armor, maybe make it so focusing on crit isn't clearly the optimal way of going about maxing dps. Also maybe maybe offer bonuses to medium armor while in melee range and to light armor while at a range, this way you can actually incentivize playing melee? I don't know, all I really know is that I hate this change and feel like the distinction between magicka and stamina builds is becoming less and less noticeable, to the point where there's just DPS builds in general.

As it stands now, you'll be expected to run both light and medium regardless of whether or no you're magicka or stamina--whereas before you ran light or medium in accordance to your role. Now there is no nuance to it. In PVE you'll run as much light as you can to get as much crit chance as you can, then make up the difference with sets--this because you aren't a magicka or stamina dps anymore, you're just a dps, and of course being a DPS you're expected and demanded to run high crit builds and stay out of melee range, because that's how you optimize damage and not die.

Which of course further bolsters the notion that you have no freedom in your build and that experimenting with off-meta sets and abilities is just an effort in futility. God forbid, between this and the proc set nerfs, there's less build freedom than there's ever been. To most of the endgame playerbase who's been all too happy to conform this unreasonable standard, this will just be a bump in the road. To everyone else who wants to have fun building their character? I feel like this was the final nail in the coffin. At least we still have normal dungeons though.

At the very least, maybe overhaul the sticker book so that any set can be reconstructed in any weight, so that we actually can run any set we want in any way we want? Maybe hybridize the rest of the DPS sets while you're at it too since the distinction doesn't matter any more.

As far as PVP goes, nothing is going to change there. Players will adapt to the new meta and then move on to the next thing to whine about like they always do, inevitably resulting in something else getting nerfed, something else getting buffed, and the cycle will start over again. Meanwhile PVE builds suffer as a result. Like always.

Well, today i tested exactly the same setting with new armour passives and I got few thousand dps more. But i was using kilt so it compensates lost of crit chance (I wonder how players in early game would do).

Now i turned my main stamplar into solo spec and i am running through vet dungeons with stampede and Sellistrix. Never thought I would switch jabs for anything but here we are... ^^

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I get the arguments for doing so, and I think it some situations it is nice. Even something as simple as a magic DPS wearing a kilt now gets a small buff, or rather removes the drawback of having a medium piece slotted. It also removes some of the grind or necessity to min/max things like monster set weights, etc.

There has clearly been a big push to hybridize sets. Everything new seems to scale off your max resource and give double bonuses in the 2-4 bonus. I already posted in another thread, but it feels like a lazy approach to me.

At the extreme end of things (we arent there yet), I feel like this heavily favors stamina builds TBH. The only real advantage to magic will be skill selection, but there are a lot of stamina morphs these days. Otherwise, if everything scales off your max resource, why wouldn't I dump every thing into stam, which means I will never run out of roll dodge, block, break free, and will still have enough of a base mag pool to cast the handful of skills I need that require magic.

PVP has been going down that road for a while now (Stamina is clearly more powerful than mag in PVE and has been for a while), and I don't think PVE is far behind. Stam DPS is off the charts this patch. Sure stamina has draw backs (mostly about range vs melee) but if they are doing 15-20% more DPS, good groups will figure out how to stack stamina.

Well, I am having the impression that mages are already throwed out of the ship, with all the self healing stuff, so no there is no point in having healer. It is far better to get 3rd DPS ^^

So armour or not, most dungeon and trials are designed without mechanics that would required healing through on a level sufficient for good healer - dmg is ridiculously low or it is one shotter - and because it is usually telegraphed, stamina specs have better chance to roll or run from dmg -_-

I was more talking about DPS. Healers are still useful for Trifecta DLC Dungeon runs and Vet Trials, but that is about it. That really doesnt have much to do with this change though. You havent needed a healer outside of those settings in PVE for a while now.

ADarklore

Nay

I swear, some people keep forgetting about SET bonuses. NO, I cannot wear MS in medium or heavy... and Leviathan doesn't give me SPELL crit. They are not increasing options, they are making it confusing and mudding the waters. If they TRULY wanted a hybrid system... then every set that offers crit should be 'spell AND weapon crit'... every set that offers damage should be spell AND weapon damage... every set that offers MAX stat should be BOTH Mag AND Stamina... this way my Magicka character could wear medium Leviathan and still have the spell crit... but that's not how it works currently.

If ZOS truly wants to give options... then they need to go back and change each and every set in the game to offer both stats so that we can actually make any type of gear work for us no matter if we're magicka or stamina.

Ippokrates

Nay

ADarklore wrote: »

I swear, some people keep forgetting about SET bonuses. NO, I cannot wear MS in medium or heavy... and Leviathan doesn't give me SPELL crit. They are not increasing options, they are making it confusing and mudding the waters. If they TRULY wanted a hybrid system... then every set that offers crit should be 'spell AND weapon crit'... every set that offers damage should be spell AND weapon damage... every set that offers MAX stat should be BOTH Mag AND Stamina... this way my Magicka character could wear medium Leviathan and still have the spell crit... but that's not how it works currently.

If ZOS truly wants to give options... then they need to go back and change each and every set in the game to offer both stats so that we can actually make any type of gear work for us no matter if we're magicka or stamina.

Well, i thought exactly the same. Change might be ok, but first you need to reevaluate sets that already are in the game. All of them.