wardens

JadeStone1

can we please nerf the wardens.... all they do is run have unlimited resources and use sub and execute that's it and it gives them kills, its so annoying. what ever happen to balance?

geonsocal

honestly, game balance (or inbalance) is often in the hands of whoever is holding the game controller or keyboard/mouse...

make some warden friends and duel them a bunch til you figure out how to beat them...

Sluggy

If you are have trouble specifically fighting them with one of your characters perhaps you should post your specs and strategy here. I know some folks do have trouble with them but I've never found wardens to be particularly difficult to fight as compared to other classes. More than likely it's just been a difference in playstyle and spec.

Not to say they aren't a decently strong class but it's not like they have a ton of sneaky tricks up their sleeves. Really I think we need to be careful about crying out for nerfs these days. DKs are still in the dirt because of such things and Nightblades have only recently pulled out of such a blackhole of nerfs.

Andre_Noir

Post wut ? Spec of wut ? Everyone and even my dog knows that sub deal damage on-par with an ultimates. Same goes for necrocancer with those stinky bones

Fawn4287

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Stinky bones

I will only refer to blastbones as this from now on

Marcus_Aurelius

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Post wut ? Spec of wut ? Everyone and even my dog knows that sub deal damage on-par with an ultimates. Same goes for necrocancer with those stinky bones

If you get hit from sub for more then an Ultimate it can only mean that you get two subs in a row.
Maybe try to dodge or block whan you see the very recognizable animation or sound from sub?
It's 6 secs from animation to second subassault, plenty of time to do something about it.

angrydrew

NERF NERF NERF..previous post are right when they say duel a few wardens till you get better people are waay too fast shoutin NERF soon all there will be is ball groups and no actual gameplay for individual toons.Im not a great player but how many times have skilz been shot to the ground and in the end it made no diff to game just meant it delayed the inevitable.

Stx

Make sure you have a source of major evasion on your build. 20% damage reduction vs. Sub assault, blast bones, dawnbreaker.

Arbiter7070

Warden is very powerful right now. Even with the nerf to Artic Blast it is still an insane class. Other classes have gotten closer to Warden and Necro but the power level of both those classes is still well above the others. This is undeniable. Warden has access to almost all the important buffs in the game. You can build a stamden to damn near 40K health or over and still get 7K weapon damage and near max resist. I currently main a stamden in Cyrodiil just because of how powerful it is compared to the other classes. I understand everyone's reluctance for nerfs in this game because ZOS tends go to the extremes with nerfs. But the reality is that this class is overpowered. There's no doubt about it. I find people that argue against nerfs to the class are either Stamden players abusing the class or players that just don't want ZOS to completely gut the class. The latter is understandable. The power level of this class needs toned down quite a bit and also I would say the same for Stamcro.

Jameson18

Arbiter7070 wrote: »

Warden is very powerful right now. Even with the nerf to Artic Blast it is still an insane class. Other classes have gotten closer to Warden and Necro but the power level of both those classes is still well above the others. This is undeniable. Warden has access to almost all the important buffs in the game. You can build a stamden to damn near 40K health or over and still get 7K weapon damage and near max resist. I currently main a stamden in Cyrodiil just because of how powerful it is compared to the other classes. I understand everyone's reluctance for nerfs in this game because ZOS tends go to the extremes with nerfs. But the reality is that this class is overpowered. There's no doubt about it. I find people that argue against nerfs to the class are either Stamden players abusing the class or players that just don't want ZOS to completely gut the class. The latter is understandable. The power level of this class needs toned down quite a bit and also I would say the same for Stamcro.

My vamplars feel far more powerful right now. At least when fighting zergs and outnumbered or ganged up on in BGs. Due to s3 vamp and the wonderful rune being on the ground stacked along with ritual and living dark keeping my hp up through pretty much anything. Granted, major evasion is a solid damage counter to them, but the same can be said for warden and necro.

My other toons all feel fine. Necro and Warden feel more rounded but not really great at any one thing. Could be the lack of CC I have on their builds as I normally build all my toons to have at least 1 heal that can be used on allies.

I've gone down the rabit hole. 2 of each class, mag and stam. Honestly, there's some small outlier class skill base imbalances here and there, but really its not enough to care about.

The thing folks are missing is that not every class or build is supposed to be successful in every situation. Some folks die a couple times to a ganker or someone that's spent a lot of time perfecting their build or play style on that toon specifically and then cry for nerfs.

How much better are you at something you do all the time, vs something that you don't do very often at all?

I'm just being objective here.

Kartalin

Stx wrote: »

Make sure you have a source of major evasion on your build. 20% damage reduction vs. Sub assault, blast bones, dawnbreaker.

Good advice, and many players understand the concept of putting counterplay abilities in their builds. The rest cry nerf (or hacks). Major evasion is your best bet to counter AOE based groups and classes/specs like Stamdens, Templars, or Magblade bombers.

Arbiter7070

Jameson18 wrote: »

Arbiter7070 wrote: »

Warden is very powerful right now. Even with the nerf to Artic Blast it is still an insane class. Other classes have gotten closer to Warden and Necro but the power level of both those classes is still well above the others. This is undeniable. Warden has access to almost all the important buffs in the game. You can build a stamden to damn near 40K health or over and still get 7K weapon damage and near max resist. I currently main a stamden in Cyrodiil just because of how powerful it is compared to the other classes. I understand everyone's reluctance for nerfs in this game because ZOS tends go to the extremes with nerfs. But the reality is that this class is overpowered. There's no doubt about it. I find people that argue against nerfs to the class are either Stamden players abusing the class or players that just don't want ZOS to completely gut the class. The latter is understandable. The power level of this class needs toned down quite a bit and also I would say the same for Stamcro.

My vamplars feel far more powerful right now. At least when fighting zergs and outnumbered or ganged up on in BGs. Due to s3 vamp and the wonderful rune being on the ground stacked along with ritual and living dark keeping my hp up through pretty much anything. Granted, major evasion is a solid damage counter to them, but the same can be said for warden and necro.

My other toons all feel fine. Necro and Warden feel more rounded but not really great at any one thing. Could be the lack of CC I have on their builds as I normally build all my toons to have at least 1 heal that can be used on allies.

I've gone down the rabit hole. 2 of each class, mag and stam. Honestly, there's some small outlier class skill base imbalances here and there, but really its not enough to care about.

The thing folks are missing is that not every class or build is supposed to be successful in every situation. Some folks die a couple times to a ganker or someone that's spent a lot of time perfecting their build or play style on that toon specifically and then cry for nerfs.

How much better are you at something you do all the time, vs something that you don't do very often at all?

I'm just being objective here.

I agree with much of what you said and your response was very well thought out. Templar does feel really good right now. Like I said the other classes have definitely gotten closer to Warden and Necro but they're not quite fully in balance yet. Warden is still pretty god tier in the 1v1 and when fighting zergs. DB and subassault is just crazy. Templar does really well too with db/sweep, Jabs and the kiting ability of living dark. But warden is still hitting harder with that delayed burst and still feels like it has better healing. At least from personal experience. I've played stamplar extensively this patch and it is definitely really good but it's just so easy to build a 40K wealth warden that hits harder then a stamplar. You're right though that there are a small number of imbalances here and there but I think they are definitely worth caring about. For instance, Dragonknight could probably use a little love right now from ZOS. But the gap has for sure gotten closer between the classes. Last patch Warden was absolutely wild though xD.

Jameson18

Arbiter7070 wrote: »

I agree with much of what you said and your response was very well thought out. Templar does feel really good right now. Like I said the other classes have definitely gotten closer to Warden and Necro but they're not quite fully in balance yet. Warden is still pretty god tier in the 1v1 and when fighting zergs. DB and subassault is just crazy. Templar does really well too with db/sweep, Jabs and the kiting ability of living dark. But warden is still hitting harder with that delayed burst and still feels like it has better healing. At least from personal experience. I've played stamplar extensively this patch and it is definitely really good but it's just so easy to build a 40K wealth warden that hits harder then a stamplar. You're right though that there are a small number of imbalances here and there but I think they are definitely worth caring about. For instance, Dragonknight could probably use a little love right now from ZOS. But the gap has for sure gotten closer between the classes. Last patch Warden was absolutely wild though xD.

Quite fair.

I think some of the issue with Warden is; reliability.

If you consider the main spammable used across the larger portion of stam specs, warden included, is the ever wonderful dswing.

This inherently has a 2m reach advantage on most melee spammables. If you consider that even in the "smoothest" of game modes, there is still a lot of desync, whether statistical or positional, this attack has an advantage.

Now apply that to sub assault. - There's little to no impact on positional desync in the usage of it. Same would go for blast bones I suppose.

The other portion then would be that it is direct damage. In current and most of past pvp, direct damage burst rounds are the name of the game.

Take for example - If jabs were 1 hit instead of 4 spread out hits. (It is basically d swing with a different application point.) - Now make PotL un-cleansable, especially after the upcoming change to it. Boom. Instant par with shalk/bb, but with single target, no LoS avoidance, and a debuff component.

Make noxious breath and venomous claw un-cleansable. - Hail the era of DK.

Now, look at the components of the other class abilities, and then factor the current need for burst / direct damage combos. Some are just currently better equipped for it right now.

So, in my opinion, its not so much a balance issue, but a mechanical issue based on missing usage factors and situational awareness at the point of creation.

xHotguy6pack

Warden is pay to win. If you don't think so they you are just flat out wrong. My warden healer does just as much damage with two abilities than a full damage build. It's actually pretty ridiculous that I can use pariah and bright throat in all heavy and get 600-700k damage in every bg along with 600k+ healing. All the while only using Permafrost and ice blockade as my damage skills.

Marcus_Aurelius

Arbiter7070 wrote: »

. You can build a stamden to damn near 40K health or over and still get 7K weapon damage and near max resist.

Can you please post a build with this stats?
I'm very curious to see it, because I see lot of people saying this but no one show something to prove it.
Asked several time but no evidence of this fabolous build.

Why you guys don't let us partake in this faboulous build and keep it only for yourself?

Marcus_Aurelius

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

All the while only using Permafrost and ice blockade as my damage skills.

That only shows that you are playing against very bad players.
I mean who stay still in a Permafrost/Ice Blockade long enough to take significant damage ???

ESO_Nightingale

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

All the while only using Permafrost and ice blockade as my damage skills.

That only shows that you are playing against very bad players.
I mean who stay still in a Permafrost/Ice Blockade long enough to take significant damage ???

yeah this guy's claims are silly. permafrost doesn't do a huge amount of damage, based on the tooltip it's slightly worse than winter's revenge and blockade of frost does roughly half of that. if those are literally the only 2 damage skills that this guy has on his build, then he's not actually doing much damage whatsoever, especially since brightthroat's boast gives less damage output than necropotence. it's likely that it's just another one of those comments trying to get magden nerfed for no actually legitimate reason. wanting stamden nerfed, i understand, but when magden is genuinely worse than stamcro, stamden, magcro and a bunch of other classes in a lot of areas, so much so that notable magden mains on legend who are genuinely quite good have left the subclass to the dumpster, i'm just kind of over here laughing. it's also funny because new players have warden when they buy the game now.

Jameson18

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

All the while only using Permafrost and ice blockade as my damage skills.

That only shows that you are playing against very bad players.
I mean who stay still in a Permafrost/Ice Blockade long enough to take significant damage ???

yeah this guy's claims are silly. permafrost doesn't do a huge amount of damage, based on the tooltip it's slightly worse than winter's revenge and blockade of frost does roughly half of that. if those are literally the only 2 damage skills that this guy has on his build, then he's not actually doing much damage whatsoever, especially since brightthroat's boast gives less damage output than necropotence. it's likely that it's just another one of those comments trying to get magden nerfed for no actually legitimate reason. wanting stamden nerfed, i understand, but when magden is genuinely worse than stamcro, stamden, magcro and a bunch of other classes in a lot of areas, so much so that notable magden mains on legend who are genuinely quite good have left the subclass to the dumpster, i'm just kind of over here laughing. it's also funny because new players have warden when they buy the game now.

Pretty much anyone can slot and keep a bunch of aoe running and drive their damage number up on a bg board.

It doesn't mean anything was accomplished. I see plenty of 1m dmg folks with 0-3 kills and a losing team on the regular.

Jameson18

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

Arbiter7070 wrote: »

. You can build a stamden to damn near 40K health or over and still get 7K weapon damage and near max resist.

Can you please post a build with this stats?
I'm very curious to see it, because I see lot of people saying this but no one show something to prove it.
Asked several time but no evidence of this fabolous build.

Why you guys don't let us partake in this faboulous build and keep it only for yourself?

I would like to see it as well.

Andre_Noir

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Post wut ? Spec of wut ? Everyone and even my dog knows that sub deal damage on-par with an ultimates. Same goes for necrocancer with those stinky bones

If you get hit from sub for more then an Ultimate it can only mean that you get two subs in a row.
Maybe try to dodge or block whan you see the very recognizable animation or sound from sub?
It's 6 secs from animation to second subassault, plenty of time to do something about it.

ORLY ?



Maybe try to not demagogy

Jameson18

Andre_Noir wrote: »

ORLY ?



Maybe try to not demagogy

If that's taken from ESO skills site, it's junk data.

I can make my sub assault and dawnbreaker tool tips look similar as well.

DB also has a stun component. (Or buff component if using other morph.)

Andre_Noir

Jameson18 wrote: »

If that's taken from ESO skills site, it's junk data.

I can make my sub assault and dawnbreaker tool tips look similar as well.

DB also has a stun component. (Or buff component if using other morph.)

AGAIN: stop demagogy. We are talking about damage and it's almost the same as an ult on a spammable skill with a twice range and terrain ignore
Deal with fresh screen if ESO skills is a junk data

Jameson18

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Jameson18 wrote: »

If that's taken from ESO skills site, it's junk data.

I can make my sub assault and dawnbreaker tool tips look similar as well.

DB also has a stun component. (Or buff component if using other morph.)

AGAIN: stop demagogy. We are talking about damage and it's almost the same as an ult on a spammable skill with a twice range and terrain ignore
Deal with fresh screen if ESO skills is a junk data

Given that, looks like whirlwind should be nerfed as well then. People should also probably cry nerf every time they see an 11k+ spectral arrow, or crystal frag, or surprise attack, or blast bone, or dswing, or molten whip, or snipe, or crystal weapon, or insert any other typical higher coefficient spammable, channeled, or delayed burst item.

Marcus_Aurelius

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Maybe try to not demagogy

Speaking of demagogy you are comparing a skill that does a base burst damage of 3260 to one that does a base burst damage of 3600 + a 4300 DoT + Stun.

The difference in the burst alone is not so as little as you may think because that is the base that is multiplied by WD/stamina so the gap is more then 400

And if we want to speak about broken skill imagine complaining about 3260 base damage when this ranged thing exist:

"Conjure dark crystals to bombard an enemy, dealing 2483 Magic Damage. Your next non-Ultimate ability cast within 3 seconds costs 10% less. Casting a Magicka Ability has a 35% chance of causing your next Crystal Fragments to be instant, deal 66% more damage, and cost 50% less Magicka. "

2483+66% = 4121

jjjozo

Damage of Warden-Sub/Necro-Blastbones vs. damage of ulti. It's not just about this simple comparison.

Sub is 3 seconds delayed attack and Blastbones 2.5sec which are placed at the beginning of any burst combo and hit together with another abilities and don't take the cooldown in actual combo but just jump on the top of it. PvP is all about huge sudden short bursts. It's like Crushing Weapon from Psijic order, it doesn't fire immediately, but together with light attack + ability and that's a huge difference. More damage sources + shorter time window where you can squeeze them is just way to kill and Warden/Necro have the advantage of having such awesome delayed skills.

I am not saying to nerf anything. Just wanted to point out "the burst". Sub is just free +1 attack in a burst combo and it has also huge damage, same counts for Blastbones which even apply Major Defile.

Andre_Noir

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Maybe try to not demagogy

Speaking of demagogy you are comparing a skill that does a base burst damage of 3260 to one that does a base burst damage of 3600 + a 4300 DoT + Stun.

Yeah speaking if demagogy I compare a skills:
1. Does 3600 instant dmg with a stun + 4300 purgeable dot (dot tell that as warden you don't know that you can almost ignore second part). AND this skill has 10 m range with a base 125/3 = 41,5 s cooldown , doesn't ignore terrain and can't be used in the same GCD with another skill Also there is a cast time
2. Does 3260 TWICE so 6540 dmg for just 2k stamina and 6s cd of effective sue. Has no cast time Can be paired with any skill so ignore GCD Also has 20m range and terrain ignore. And if u so like numbers: it also trigger ALL 4 passives from Animal companion tree so on top of the rest: +12% recovery, 4 ult points, +2% dmg, +hea

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

And if we want to speak about broken skill imagine complaining about 3260 base damage when this ranged thing exist:

"Conjure dark crystals to bombard an enemy, dealing 2483 Magic Damage. Your next non-Ultimate ability cast within 3 seconds costs 10% less. Casting a Magicka Ability has a 35% chance of causing your next Crystal Fragments to be instant, deal 66% more damage, and cost 50% less Magicka. "

2483+66% = 4121

So it deal 2/3 of shalk's damage, can be roll dodged/blocked, single target, has cast time with no proc and require a line of sight ? Yeah sounds almost as a normal skill

mmtaniac

Netch need cost something around 700-1000 but in exchange improve resource gain to compensate cost. Cost is must to stop spamming this ability for free healing and 0 cost purge.

Veinblood1965

JadeStone1 wrote: »

can we please nerf the wardens.... all they do is run have unlimited resources and use sub and execute that's it and it gives them kills, its so annoying. what ever happen to balance?

Yay another Nerf the (insert class here) post.

moo_2021

JadeStone1 wrote: »

can we please nerf the wardens.... all they do is run have unlimited resources and use sub and execute that's it and it gives them kills, its so annoying. what ever happen to balance?

How do they close range with execute reliably? Could one sub lower hp to execute range in pvp? The hardest hits on me were always frags

Why not join them if you can't beat them? I just made a warden orc and preparing a combo of sub, dive, charge with bleeding set and bleeding 2h

geonsocal

mmtaniac wrote: »

Netch need cost something around 700-1000 but in exchange improve resource gain to compensate cost. Cost is must to stop spamming this ability for free healing and 0 cost purge.

hmmmm, necromancer has some nice "free" skills also...other than that, what else is there but repentance...

maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to fit a free skill or two in to each class...

geonsocal

moo_2021 wrote: »

JadeStone1 wrote: »

can we please nerf the wardens.... all they do is run have unlimited resources and use sub and execute that's it and it gives them kills, its so annoying. what ever happen to balance?

I just made a warden orc and preparing a combo of sub, dive, charge with bleeding set and bleeding 2h

dive's not usually slotted too much in pvp...also, dual wield (spin-to-win baby) seems to work really nice in conjunction with sub-assault, sneak a dawnbreaker in there and you're cooking with gas...