No love for argonians? 🦎

lQrukl

We just were forgotten. Nerfed for no reason. Left to die outside the meta. 6 long months we waited. Hoped. Suffered.

Enough!

Zos, pay attention to us!

Every single Khajiit's passive is better and more variable then ours. Even first "roleplay" passive!

Resourceful

As common PvE dd/healer berfore new CP I had around 20-21k hp. So, this passive restored me 4/20=25% of my hp bar and it was not affected by Battle Spirit.
Now it is affected, but also it can crit, yeah? But wait, crit was also nerfed. Now, if I lucky enough, i can heal myself for about... 6,5/26=24%. With about 60% chance. In PvE.
Or 3.12/26=12% if I wasn't lucky. This is a penny compared to what it was before, and even before it wasn't much useful.
I am not telling about PvP, it actually pointless there.

Also it restores 3125 resources that is equivalent to 3.125/45=69.5 magica/stamina recovery, but with a little nuance. It is not a magica or stamina recovery. So its not affected by any Intellect or Endurance buff!
Unlike the Khajiit, who has 85(!) mag/stamina recovery plus 100 hp recovery (about +4500hp per potion cooldown, affectable by +45% Fortitude buffs).

Life Mender

Increases your Healing Done by 6%.
Why it provides only a healing bonus? Khajiits have both healing and damage 12% crit buff. And the Thief meta makes it very useful.
Most of endgame players prefer Khajiits or Altmers as healers, because they can also help their groups with dealing damage, not only healing.
Why not change that to e.g. "Increases your healing over time and damage over time by 10%"?
So that passive would mark the lizards not only as healers, but also as poison's archers, bleed assassins, etc. And it would make us much more useful and variable in all roles with right build balancing.

Unchain us!
🦎🦎🦎

Tommy_The_Gun

lQrukl wrote: »

I am not telling about PvP, it actually pointless there.

As far as I can tell, Resourceful restored health portion in pvp is halved. So it is something like 1562 every time you drink a potions (that is every 45 seconds, assuming potion button works in Cyro, but for the most part you need to spam the button and it may or may not fire & trigger the passive).
Next patch it is gonna be worse as Battle Spirit will reduce healing by 55% (currently it is 50%) So resourceful health restored will go down to 1407.

Tbh. Even in PvE this passive is not even meh or lackluster anymore. It is just weak. I mean in the past it was possible to sustain using potion cool-down glyphs. It was even possible to use potions that had stam / mag recovery + weapon / spell dmg buff, so Argonians were not as bad even for dps or healer as they are now. Granted they were never in top 3, but at least they were vailable for vet content. Right now you actually get more sustain from infused tri-stat recovery jewellery on an Argonian rather than infused potion cool-down glyph.

The reason (at least ZOS said it in their dev comment) why sustain passive was nerfed, was new CP (Rejuvenation). But the problem is that this CP is getting nerfed and we dont have corresponding buffs to other forms of sustain.

Ippokrates

lQrukl wrote: »

We just were forgotten. Nerfed for no reason. Left to die outside the meta. 6 long mounth we waited. Hoped. Suffered.

Enough!

Zos, pay attention to us!

Every single Khajiit's passive is more better and more uneversal then our. Even first "roleplay" passive!

Resourceful

As common PvE dd/healer berfore new CP I had around 20-21k hp. So, this passive restored me 4/20=25% of my hp bar and it was not affected by Battle Spirit.
Now it is affected, but also it can crit, yeah? But wait, crit was also nerfed. Now, if I lucky enough, i can heal myself for about... 6,5/26=24%. With about 60% chance. In PvE.
Or 3.12/26=12% if I was not lucky. This is a penny compared to what it was before, and even before it wasnt much useful.
I am not telling about PvP, it actually pointless there.
Also it restores 3125 resourses that is equivalent to 3.125/45=69.5 magica/stamina recovery, but with a little nuance. It is not a magica recovery. So its not affected by any Intellect or Endurance buff!
Unlike the Khajiit, who has 85(!) mag/stamina recovery plus 100 hp recovery (about +4500hp per potion cooldown, affectable by +45% Fortitude buffs).

Life Mender

Increases your Healing Done by 6%.
Why it provides only a healing bonus? Khajiits have both healing and damage 12% crit buff. And the Thief meta makes it very usefull.
Most of endgame players prefer Khajiits or Altmers as healers, because they also can help their groups with dealing damage, not only healing.
Why not change that to e.g. "Increases your healing over time and damage over time by 10%"?
So that passive would mark the lizards not only as healers, but also as poison's archers, bleed assassins, etc. And it would make us much more useful and variable in all roles with right build balancing.

Unchain us!
🦎🦎🦎

I like the idea with DOT bonus. Also, they could have bonus to poisons, not only potions.

First thing might increase their performance in PvE (bonus to DOT could give them few thousands DPS or even more in long run).

Second would be nice addition to pvp.

guarstompemoji

It is sadness that yeah, their healing buff is not a bit stronger. The potion debuff was a harsh kick. I only play argonians because I enjoy them--never for the mechanical benefits.

zvavi

10% dot dmg is too strong though.

lQrukl

10% dot dmg is too strong though.

Sorc's damage consists of 80% direct damage and 20% dot.
Templar's damage (even with Opressor that provides tonn of damage) consists of dot only for 27-30%.
Necro - 37-38%.

So it would not that much you think. Around 2-4% dps increase in total

Stx

Zos did a really bad job with racial passives in general. I think it was last year that they updated them? They are even more imbalanced than they used to be...

You have a "hybrid" race in dark elf that provides the best dps for pure stamina builds.. go figure. And then you have races like argonian and redguard that have such niche passives that they are barely useful and even while building for those niches, other races would still be better.

Auzsi

They can do whatever they want with the potion passive, but for god sake do something with that crap healing done. This is the only racial in the entire game, which is 100% useless if you are not in a specific role. Nord’s resistance is somewhat similar, but at least it’s useful in pvp. Racials supposed to be open ended and part of your character progression. Life mender is a massive design failure.

Tommy_The_Gun

Auzsi wrote: »

They can do whatever they want with the potion passive, but for god sake do something with that crap healing done. This is the only racial in the entire game, which is 100% useless if you are not in a specific role. Nord’s resistance is somewhat similar, but at least it’s useful in pvp. Racials supposed to be open ended and part of your character progression. Life mender is a massive design failure.

The thing about the healing passive (and I really don't know why they left it like that after 2nd racial rebalance) is that, it is not even standardised at all.

Life Mender passive (Increases your Healing Done by 6%) was established during 1st racial rebalance and it is based on gear set bonus that provides more healing. But the thing is that gear set bonus was 2% back then. Later it was buffed 4%, so it is 100% stronger. But Argonian's Life Mender passive, oddly was not touched at all. It is still based on 3x 2% gear set bonus. So if it was standardised according to current "spreadsheet guideline" it should be at least 12%. It is not really a rocket since, just a basic math.

sharquez

As one who has an Argonian of every class I agree that something does need to be done about all their passives, some of the tweaks in this thread are a great suggestion. They are all pretty much relegated to tanking/healing roles as of now since every other character i have outshines them in their respective damage roles, which isn't necessarily the issue but there should be a better niche for them somewhere. The DOT/HOT suggestion would be a fantastic change.

phaneub17_ESO

- For the first 10 seconds entering water, they are immune to slaughterfish damage then take 80% reduced damage from slaughterfish, reduces to 40% in PvP.
- Argonians are always considered in stealth while swimming and first attack made in 5 seconds after exiting water counts as a sneak attack.
- Increases movement speed after coming out of the water for 20 seconds. Like an alligator coming out ambushing a prey, Argonians run out of the water at the same speed they swim for 10 seconds, then diminishes in value in the next 10 seconds.

Jameson18

If they take the mender up 2% and put 50% of the potion passive back, they'd be fine.

I have 3 of them. One of which being a main. Don't go overboard. I don't want the rest of my stuff nerfed. Nor do we want yet another complete game overhaul for an outlier or two.

lQrukl

If they take the mender up 2% and put 50% of the potion passive back, they'd be fine.

For your specific builds? Probably. For people that want just play them outside of "well as healer, bad at everything else" chains, just because argonians are cool? Not at all.

I love zos's idea that players should balance their builds, not just maximize single stat or build style, including by choosing the "right" race (like altmers for dps dealers for a long time), same skills, sets, etc.

And in conclusion, true argonian mainer should never resist or afraid changes. The time of the stone cities in the swamps has passed. Its pointless to oppose the Will of Sithis. I erect the spine of warning 🦎

PrinceShroob

I'd like it if Argonians had a critical chance bonus instead of a healing done bonus. It'd be unique and help push them to using the Shadow Mundus, which they have a connection to in lore.

I'm not fond of the potion passive and would prefer flat recovery bonuses.

If they won't give us a critical chance bonus, I'd take a spell and weapon damage bonus in place of healing done, but I don't want a spell and weapon damage bonus and a critical chance bonus, since that would just catapult Argonians into being the BiS flavor-of-the-month choice for DPS.

Stx

The thing about the potion passive to me is, it's cool.... but means that if you aren't running a niche clever alchemist build with potion speed enchants, your racial will never be on the same level as the other races.

But if they buff the potion racial, then those niche builds will have crazy sustain. It's just really hard to balance, and I hate to have cool unique things removed but maybe the best answer for argonian players is just to change the potion racial to something else.

Aren't khajiit the potion chuggers of TeS lore anyway? Skooma and all that...

the1andonlyskwex

I don't love the fact that my Argonian has a racial that depends on burning through consumables. I understand the goal/theme, but it conflicts with my hoarder mentality.

As far as the % healing bonus goes, I don't really mind the concept (it still buffs self heals for tanks and DPS), but I agree with the observation that when it was introduced it was equivalent to three 2-piece set bonuses and then the set bonus got doubled without touching the passive. It's also worth noting that the spell and weapon damage passives that other races have are worth approximately 2 set bonuses, while Argonians' +healing bonus is currently only worth 1.5 while also being less versatile.

ArgonianAustin

My brother plays khajiit while im argonian and im always jealous of his racial stats. Hes jealous of my swim speed though.

YandereGirlfriend

ArgonianAustin wrote: »

My brother plays khajiit while im argonian and im always jealous of his racial stats. Hes jealous of my swim speed though.

Also Argonian tails > Khajiit tails!

the1andonlyskwex

ArgonianAustin wrote: »

My brother plays khajiit while im argonian and im always jealous of his racial stats. Hes jealous of my swim speed though.

Swim speed is easily the best of the "flavor" passives.

ESO_Nightingale

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

ArgonianAustin wrote: »

My brother plays khajiit while im argonian and im always jealous of his racial stats. Hes jealous of my swim speed though.

Swim speed is easily the best of the "flavor" passives.

either that or reduced fall damage. bosmer's one is pretty good. they can also detect people in stealth slightly better though that's not hugely amazing.

khajiit's one is solid, reduced detection radius and better pickpocket makes for better stealth in stealing/assassination quests which is nice.

the1andonlyskwex

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

ArgonianAustin wrote: »

My brother plays khajiit while im argonian and im always jealous of his racial stats. Hes jealous of my swim speed though.

Swim speed is easily the best of the "flavor" passives.

either that or reduced fall damage. bosmer's one is pretty good. they can also detect people in stealth slightly better though that's not hugely amazing.

khajiit's one is solid, reduced detection radius and better pickpocket makes for better stealth in stealing/assassination quests which is nice.

The stealth-related effects aren't part of the flavor passive. The flavor passive is just the first one that you get for free.

ESO_Nightingale

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

ArgonianAustin wrote: »

My brother plays khajiit while im argonian and im always jealous of his racial stats. Hes jealous of my swim speed though.

Swim speed is easily the best of the "flavor" passives.

either that or reduced fall damage. bosmer's one is pretty good. they can also detect people in stealth slightly better though that's not hugely amazing.

khajiit's one is solid, reduced detection radius and better pickpocket makes for better stealth in stealing/assassination quests which is nice.

The stealth-related effects aren't part of the flavor passive. The flavor passive is just the first one that you get for free.

Ah well. they work really well together anyway.

Faulgor

Stx wrote: »

The thing about the potion passive to me is, it's cool.... but means that if you aren't running a niche clever alchemist build with potion speed enchants, your racial will never be on the same level as the other races.

But if they buff the potion racial, then those niche builds will have crazy sustain. It's just really hard to balance, and I hate to have cool unique things removed but maybe the best answer for argonian players is just to change the potion racial to something else.

Aren't khajiit the potion chuggers of TeS lore anyway? Skooma and all that...

The joke is that the potion passive doesn't even synergize well with Clever Alchemist. You want to proc Clever Alchemist before your burst, when you are usually still topped on resources.

That's also partially why the passive sucks for sustain in PvE. You use your potion before a fight even starts, but then you are on a 45 second cooldown before you can make use of your sustain passive, at which point most PvE fights are already over. Even if the magnitude was higher, the whole concept is quite annoying to work with. I'd prefer if it just boosted recoveries while under effects of a potion.

Ippokrates

Faulgor wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

The thing about the potion passive to me is, it's cool.... but means that if you aren't running a niche clever alchemist build with potion speed enchants, your racial will never be on the same level as the other races.

But if they buff the potion racial, then those niche builds will have crazy sustain. It's just really hard to balance, and I hate to have cool unique things removed but maybe the best answer for argonian players is just to change the potion racial to something else.

Aren't khajiit the potion chuggers of TeS lore anyway? Skooma and all that...

The joke is that the potion passive doesn't even synergize well with Clever Alchemist. You want to proc Clever Alchemist before your burst, when you are usually still topped on resources.

That's also partially why the passive sucks for sustain in PvE. You use your potion before a fight even starts, but then you are on a 45 second cooldown before you can make use of your sustain passive, at which point most PvE fights are already over. Even if the magnitude was higher, the whole concept is quite annoying to work with. I'd prefer if it just boosted recoveries while under effects of a potion.

If you are using power/crit potion (it is better to use full name, because last time I had used abbreviation for potion, ZOS send me warning LOL XD ) you can open with potion. It is great for veteran, for normal you can simply ignore that.

Also with ring you can drop cooldown to 30 sec, so CA might have 66% uptime. And then it would be wise to switch between power potion and trash sustain potion to do not waste potion passives. 1 power - 1 trash - 1 power - 1 trash etc.

So IMHO such build is far better in pvp where you can drink one unstoppable potion after another. And you can even run ^^ whenever you want, because unstoppable potion could also give you stamina boost.

oterWitz

I agree with you all about argonians needing buffs and the possible options for that, but I've got to say I love the Resourceful passive and would be sad to see it removed for something more standard like the other races have. That extra bit of resources from drinking a potion is great to have for solo arenas and, as others have said, PvP situations. I know it's less helpful when you're chugging on cooldown, but in other situations it's great to have and something I miss when playing a different race.
I wonder if it would help to exchange the first part of the passive (increases your max mag and stam) for an increase to weapon and spell damage after drinking a potion (making the entire passive potion based), or if that would just throw things out of balance. Just some brainstorming

YandereGirlfriend

I definitely also love Resourceful (and was sad to see it senselessly nerfed a few patches ago...) and agree that it's not the proper venue to seek a buff for the race.

To be honest, if the Healing Done passive were properly buffed to +12% to account for current set bonuses, the race would be a very strong choice for healing in both PvE and PvP.

Alternatively, you could toss tanks a bone and give them a +6% Healing Taken to go along with their current +6% Healing Done. Self-heals would be buffed by +12% but the passive would be more generally useful for roles other than healers as well. It would also somewhat reflect their regenerative capabilities that we saw embodied in their Skyrim racial power.

TheUndeadAmulet

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I definitely also love Resourceful (and was sad to see it senselessly nerfed a few patches ago...) and agree that it's not the proper venue to seek a buff for the race.

To be honest, if the Healing Done passive were properly buffed to +12% to account for current set bonuses, the race would be a very strong choice for healing in both PvE and PvP.

Alternatively, you could toss tanks a bone and give them a +6% Healing Taken to go along with their current +6% Healing Done. Self-heals would be buffed by +12% but the passive would be more generally useful for roles other than healers as well. It would also somewhat reflect their regenerative capabilities that we saw embodied in their Skyrim racial power.

I'm not 100% sure, but argonian might have already had +6% healing received before ZOS removed it, because everyone and their mom was an argonian in PvP for like, a patch.

In any case I would personally prefer argonians being buffed more towards abusing potions and poisons. Maybe a percentage increase in the buffs and debuffs potions and poisons apply?

tripp

Extra HP recovery wtih Life Mender - 60/120/200, doubled when standing in water or during rain. Fits the theme and the gimmick isn't reliable enough to be broken.

Ippokrates

Just to be clear (and free of this trial dummy nonsense). ATM a "base" dmg of each char has min. 2350 dmg. 1000 from char + 1350 from most weapons (except 2h & dw).

Altmer, Orc & Dunmer have universal bonus of +258 dmg to all skills (dmg & heal) and LA/HA attacks, which is equal to ca. additional 12% W/S power in both pve & pvp enviroments. This flat amount could be easy raised by 30% with minor&manor sorcery/brutality by additional 77 dmg to 335.

The only race that can outmatch this bonus are Khajiit BUT they could do it only with specific builds, focused on crit (which atm results in massive weakening of proc sets) and rather pve, cause in pvp CP + few crit resist items & set bonuses would easily cover this 12% bonus making it useless.

So when someone is saying that bonus of 10% to DOT would be OP, i can agree - from trial dummy point of view that could be true. But the game is not only about trials parses but also solo arenas, 4- man dungs & pvp - and if MER trio have such powerful bonus to dmg (and with all that crazy synergies, sets, foods and glyphs sustain is really not an issue so all those Redgard, Breton, Bosmer or Imperial chars are pointless) maybe other races should have similarly unique & powerful buffs - option 1 in favor, or Mer should lose this massive bonus - option 2 not so funny, right?

Ok, optionally nr 3 similar to the solution used in the Ring of the Pale Order - decrease the bonus proportionally to size of the group, to keep balance between solo - 4-man & trial groups.

Tommy_The_Gun

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I definitely also love Resourceful (and was sad to see it senselessly nerfed a few patches ago...) and agree that it's not the proper venue to seek a buff for the race.

To be honest, if the Healing Done passive were properly buffed to +12% to account for current set bonuses, the race would be a very strong choice for healing in both PvE and PvP.

Alternatively, you could toss tanks a bone and give them a +6% Healing Taken to go along with their current +6% Healing Done. Self-heals would be buffed by +12% but the passive would be more generally useful for roles other than healers as well. It would also somewhat reflect their regenerative capabilities that we saw embodied in their Skyrim racial power.

I'm not 100% sure, but argonian might have already had +6% healing received before ZOS removed it, because everyone and their mom was an argonian in PvP for like, a patch.

In any case I would personally prefer argonians being buffed more towards abusing potions and poisons. Maybe a percentage increase in the buffs and debuffs potions and poisons apply?

It was not because of healing received passive, but rather the fact that ZOS nerfed sustain across the board and later with Summerset added jewellery crafting and new jewellery trait - infused. So it was possible to get potion cool-down low enough to have good sustain. That is the reason - especially if you consider that other races did not had good passives back then. Orc, Breton, Dunmer, Altmer and Imperial for example had totally different and much weaker racial passives than what they have now. And yes, it was literally for "a Patch" - because Wrathstone was next major update (1st racial rebalance).

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Quick+to+Mend
^ I would say that if they would restore live mender to what it was before (including the name, yes this passive was called:
"Quick to Mend") and gave 5% healing done and received - no one would all of the sudden switch to Argonian as a meta race. In fact even if they buffed Resourceful passive back to 4K resources restored - there would be still better options to chose from, so Argonian would still be a niche race, but definitely would be in a better spot.

Right now it is probably one of the worst (if not the worst) race in terms of passives, with Wood Elf & Redguard also being in bottom places, but those are at least good in specific (but niche) roles. Argonian does not have its niche speciality any more. Their passives are too weak for that.

lQrukl

My scales have faded and turned white... I have seen a lot.
Countless patches have been passed. There were good. There were bad.
Left behind victories and defeats.

I saw how yesterday's beginners closed trifecta. I closed it myself.
Many enemies fell by my hand. Many friends left from this game.
I have seen a lot.

But there is something that I have never seen...

🦎 ANY 🦎 LOVE 🦎 FOR 🦎🦎🦎 ARGONIANS 🦎🦎🦎

looks at zos with condemnation