Non-CP Battleground: It is not a high damage PVP patch, it is a tank PVP patch.

veeboraub17_ESO

Tank builds are being dominant in Non-CP Battleground.

I am using a NightBlade with Mechanical + Stuhn's. Shadow Mundus with all Divines. A similar idea of your Backstabber (Kristofer).

I don't have Balogh, but I am using Kra'gh's for some more pens.

I mostly come short of damage to kill tanky players even in the prime 5 full critical seconds.

I can see Tanky Templar, Necromancer, eventually, DKs ruling the show. The Sorcs seems to be less tanky, but its burst damage and streak mobility seem to compensate for it.

Bashev

This is natural for PvP. If I do not have mobility or invisibility I should build with a lot of tankiness. If you want to kill someone you should not die in 3 seconds. People adjusted to the burst meta and they invested in more defense. At the same time the damage is still good and enough to kill players.

MrMazurski

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Alucardo

MrMazurski wrote: »

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Technically squishy, high penetration builds SHOULD counter tanks. There's nothing more demoralising than building a tank shredder and barely denting their armor, because that's all you're good for.

SkaraMinoc

It's very easy to build 40k resist + major/minor protection and become unkillable while still doing enough damage to kill non-tanks. Not sure why they are changing battle spirit to reduce player damage even further.

MrMazurski

Alucardo wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Technically squishy, high penetration builds SHOULD counter tanks. There's nothing more demoralising than building a tank shredder and barely denting their armor, because that's all you're good for.

Right, but this is what the all games look like. Paper, scissors, stone. Don't expect gank builds to kill tanks in 5 seconds. For this, the tank exists.

The breakdown of the "meta tank" will bring even worse consequences. I might as well complain about the nerf high dmg / critic meta. Then we can talk about the nerf tank.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

It's very easy to build 40k resist + major/minor protection and become unkillable while still doing enough damage to kill non-tanks. Not sure why they are changing battle spirit to reduce player damage even further.

the times of such immortal tanks have already passed. I mean you will still meet dude that is hard to kill, but it is possible. Not like a year ago? They change too much for me to remember the entire timeline

taugrim

Alucardo wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Technically squishy, high penetration builds SHOULD counter tanks. There's nothing more demoralising than building a tank shredder and barely denting their armor, because that's all you're good for.

Actually, no.

In pretty much every MMORPG's PVP, the squishy gank MDPS are built to take out casters.

If a squishy gank MDPS class could kill tanks AND casters, what would be the point of playing any class aside from a gank MDPS?

Typical MMORPG PVP:
tank > MDPS > caster > tank

Anyway, those tanks can't kill gank MDPS either, unless the MDPS is stupid and tries to go toe-to-toe with them. Smart gank MDPS pick their spots, that's the whole point of playing a gank build with stealth capability.

Waffennacht

Alucardo wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Technically squishy, high penetration builds SHOULD counter tanks. There's nothing more demoralising than building a tank shredder and barely denting their armor, because that's all you're good for.

Nooooo squishy targets destroy other squishy targets.

Wtf is the point in being a tank if a single DD can rip through your defense?

Squishy should LOSE to longer TTK tanky specs and blow up other squishies

veeboraub17_ESO

MrMazurski wrote: »

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Just one correction, I haven't asked anybody to change the game. I am just clarifying that the tank is the meta, not the damage.

It is important to other people like me not to get misled spending weeks to level and build a high damage char, instead of building the tank that will bring you much more fun.

MrMazurski

veeboraub17_ESO wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Just one correction, I haven't asked anybody to change the game. I am just clarifying that the tank is the meta, not the damage.

It is important to other people like me not to get misled spending weeks to level and build a high damage char, instead of building the tank that will bring you much more fun.

I think that the people below my post exhaust the topic sufficiently.

after that, the introduced build would make sense on Cyro or IC. BGs are too fast, small for the gank to run 100%. I still missed that at BG. 8 lurking opponent gankers on my team what are too 4 gankers. like sniper hunting match

divnyi

veeboraub17_ESO wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Just one correction, I haven't asked anybody to change the game. I am just clarifying that the tank is the meta, not the damage.

Tank is not the meta. It never was, it never will. Neither burst build, gladly.

Best build in 1vs1 is always min-maxed in terms of toughness-damage-sustain triangle.

What you call "tank" is essentially fighter or bruiser. It was 35k+ bruisers before, with proc set damage and no damage stats on body, it is ~28k high armor high weapon/spell damage fighters now.

Best duelist build should be above any single player high-burst combo with active defenses (block-heals, dodges, LOS breaks). If that wouldn't be the case, we will be in very bad "oops all gankers" meta. We are dangerously close to it, in fact, as snipe snipe shards in acuity is like ~24k on medium armor. Gankers are well capable to oppressively remove all the squishys from the battlefield already.

chuckythexii

BG's will always be dominated by the team that manages to act like a team instead of a bunch of pugs. stealthy gank builds are inherently bad at this because they are made to be selfish solo builds. Had a match today where a ganker got loads of kills more than the rest of his team combined but they still lost because he was just running around by himself.

Conversely my PVE tank made for dungeoning actually does pretty well at winning BGs. Because it is centered around forcing my team to be good. It doesn't have high damage only about 3k wep damage. But it does have a group 30% damage buff, group heal, group CC, pull, and the taunt with tremorscale gives everyone hitting the target 12k pen. So yeah I stick by friendlies pull an unfortunate enemy taunt him and the group is usually capable of doing the rest.

Its not about the one on one. Even though a burst damage ganker probably wont kill me, I probably wont kill them either unless they are kind enough to try and match my sustain against theirs. Frankly that's the way it should be, if a ganker was capable of taking out even the hardest of targets in five seconds why would anyone play anything else.

Alucardo

Waffennacht wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Technically squishy, high penetration builds SHOULD counter tanks. There's nothing more demoralising than building a tank shredder and barely denting their armor, because that's all you're good for.

Nooooo squishy targets destroy other squishy targets.

Wtf is the point in being a tank if a single DD can rip through your defense?

Squishy should LOSE to longer TTK tanky specs and blow up other squishies

I'm not saying they should be able to one shot a 40k tank. I'm saying you should be able to dent their armor and at least apply some pressure before they leap on you and kill you in a single blow.

Iriidius

I would like to know how you build such tanks that don’t even get pressured before they one shoot you. The pressure if a player with high damage or a few zerglings attack me is usually that high that block-heal doesn’t help. Have also heard that block would be bugged but probably they are just pressuring threw block(usually pressure by spamming spam able and burst skills). With block heal my stamina also goes empty very fast but often damage still kills me earlier. Keeping up endless pressure seems to be possible without sustain issues. Dodge roll also doesn’t seem reliable I regulary still get hit. And getting distance is also difficult because most players don’t have problems following me if I sprint away with major expedition.

It is high damage patch because ZoS removed old cp and but compensated only for loss of offensive cp. 10% damage reduction per player is negated by reducing battle spirit damage reduction to 44%. Players build more tanky to compensate damage increase. Players build tanky but they are not really tanky. Even with pariah defense is difficult.

I don’t think it is normal that if you keep buffs and heals up, use block and dodge roll and keep moving you still cant survive.
I don’t want to Trolltank people the pressure just doesn’t give me a chance to recover and start to attack.

veeboraub17_ESO

The only thing I know is that I just changed to old my Magicka Templar healer. Which don't even have heavy armour and a few other lines fully levelled, and it is doing awesome :-)

Pariah and Shacklebreaker, and laugh at the poor Nightblades that dare to attack me. Loving it.

divnyi

Alucardo wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Technically squishy, high penetration builds SHOULD counter tanks. There's nothing more demoralising than building a tank shredder and barely denting their armor, because that's all you're good for.

Nooooo squishy targets destroy other squishy targets.

Wtf is the point in being a tank if a single DD can rip through your defense?

Squishy should LOSE to longer TTK tanky specs and blow up other squishies

I'm not saying they should be able to one shot a 40k tank. I'm saying you should be able to dent their armor and at least apply some pressure before they leap on you and kill you in a single blow.

If you can't dent them, it means they are aware of your presence and using active defences that eat up resources. I can totally remove great chunk of tank HP once they leave their guard down.

divnyi

Iriidius wrote: »

It is high damage patch because ZoS removed old cp and but compensated only for loss of offensive cp. 10% damage reduction per player is negated by reducing battle spirit damage reduction to 44%. Players build more tanky to compensate damage increase. Players build tanky but they are not really tanky. Even with pariah defense is difficult.

This thread is about noCP.

Iriidius wrote: »

I would like to know how you build such tanks that don’t even get pressured before they one shoot you. The pressure if a player with high damage or a few zerglings attack me is usually that high that block-heal doesn’t help. Have also heard that block would be bugged but probably they are just pressuring threw block(usually pressure by spamming spam able and burst skills). With block heal my stamina also goes empty very fast but often damage still kills me earlier. Keeping up endless pressure seems to be possible without sustain issues. Dodge roll also doesn’t seem reliable I regulary still get hit. And getting distance is also difficult because most players don’t have problems following me if I sprint away with major expedition.

You break LoS (line of sight). That means you try to fight at the places where you can run around the corners indefinitely (ever wondered why 1xX players like edge towers and resource towers?).

Block-heal is a last resort. And you can't sustain 1v2 pressure using costly heals, you need to remove uptime on their damage and don't allow them to combine their burst - and LoS break does exactly that.

Whether you use block and rolls more proactively depends on their cost. You can stack sturdy or stack well-fitted.

And yes, offense cost less resources than defense. So find the openings to put some delayed skills on, find time when they are separated to burst in several GCD. If it doesn't work, put your heals up and continue.

taugrim

Alucardo wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Technically squishy, high penetration builds SHOULD counter tanks. There's nothing more demoralising than building a tank shredder and barely denting their armor, because that's all you're good for.

Nooooo squishy targets destroy other squishy targets.

Wtf is the point in being a tank if a single DD can rip through your defense?

Squishy should LOSE to longer TTK tanky specs and blow up other squishies

I'm not saying they should be able to one shot a 40k tank. I'm saying you should be able to dent their armor and at least apply some pressure before they leap on you and kill you in a single blow.

This is gross exaggeration.

If it's a 40k tank, that means they pumped their health and armor to there point where their damage is going to be low.

With stats, you have to make tradeoff decisions. There's no such thing as a high health, high armor, and high damage build.

For sure DK leap is powerful, but from a tank it's main to apply CC / disrupt and recover resources. It's the squishier high-damage builds that pack heavy burst with leap and follow-up attacks (Dizzying -> Execution / Reverse Slice).

veeboraub17_ESO

taugrim wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Technically squishy, high penetration builds SHOULD counter tanks. There's nothing more demoralising than building a tank shredder and barely denting their armor, because that's all you're good for.

Nooooo squishy targets destroy other squishy targets.

Wtf is the point in being a tank if a single DD can rip through your defense?

Squishy should LOSE to longer TTK tanky specs and blow up other squishies

I'm not saying they should be able to one shot a 40k tank. I'm saying you should be able to dent their armor and at least apply some pressure before they leap on you and kill you in a single blow.

This is gross exaggeration.

If it's a 40k tank, that means they pumped their health and armor to there point where their damage is going to be low.

With stats, you have to make tradeoff decisions. There's no such thing as a high health, high armor, and high damage build.

For sure DK leap is powerful, but from a tank it's main to apply CC / disrupt and recover resources. It's the squishier high-damage builds that pack heavy burst with leap and follow-up attacks (Dizzying -> Execution / Reverse Slice).

My point is that if you go Stam NB full damage, you won't get close to kill a decent tank. And, the tank low damage is more than enough to kill a full-on NightBlade damage build as long as it has a gap closer. And, I mean a proper NB damage build like the ones suggested by Youtubers, with gold weapons and everything else but mythical items.

Krystofer ranked Stam NB as the top dog in PVP, which I respectfully disagree with.

My half-decent refurbished Magicka Templar is doing better overall than my Stam NB, except by:
- When I get a game in my NB with mostly low tankness enemies, then I can decimate the battlefield.
- Unfortunately, people are stopping using this kind of chars and bringing tough tanks.

Additionally, teams playing together will make it "impossible" for an NB to be effective. But, a tank can hold the ground and keep killing as it goes.

I can see that a very high skill NB player can do much better than me. But, I also think that the high skill player it would do even better in a tank char comparing to himself in an NB.

Not even talking about the low utility for the team that a high damage NB brings compared to other tank chars.

The most effective NBs I am seeing recently are the ones converted to Bow Snipers.

Iriidius

divnyi wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

It is high damage patch because ZoS removed old cp and but compensated only for loss of offensive cp. 10% damage reduction per player is negated by reducing battle spirit damage reduction to 44%. Players build more tanky to compensate damage increase. Players build tanky but they are not really tanky. Even with pariah defense is difficult.

This thread is about noCP.

Iriidius wrote: »

I would like to know how you build such tanks that don’t even get pressured before they one shoot you. The pressure if a player with high damage or a few zerglings attack me is usually that high that block-heal doesn’t help. Have also heard that block would be bugged but probably they are just pressuring threw block(usually pressure by spamming spam able and burst skills). With block heal my stamina also goes empty very fast but often damage still kills me earlier. Keeping up endless pressure seems to be possible without sustain issues. Dodge roll also doesn’t seem reliable I regulary still get hit. And getting distance is also difficult because most players don’t have problems following me if I sprint away with major expedition.

You break LoS (line of sight). That means you try to fight at the places where you can run around the corners indefinitely (ever wondered why 1xX players like edge towers and resource towers?).

Block-heal is a last resort. And you can't sustain 1v2 pressure using costly heals, you need to remove uptime on their damage and don't allow them to combine their burst - and LoS break does exactly that.

Whether you use block and rolls more proactively depends on their cost. You can stack sturdy or stack well-fitted.

And yes, offense cost less resources than defense. So find the openings to put some delayed skills on, find time when they are separated to burst in several GCD. If it doesn't work, put your heals up and continue.

I know how to use towers and rocks for LoS. But if I get attacked on open field and not next to a tower or rock or other object I can use to LoS they kill me in a few seconds. And even a single player can pressure threw block+heal.

chuckythexii

divnyi wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

It is high damage patch because ZoS removed old cp and but compensated only for loss of offensive cp. 10% damage reduction per player is negated by reducing battle spirit damage reduction to 44%. Players build more tanky to compensate damage increase. Players build tanky but they are not really tanky. Even with pariah defense is difficult.

This thread is about noCP.

Iriidius wrote: »

I would like to know how you build such tanks that don’t even get pressured before they one shoot you. The pressure if a player with high damage or a few zerglings attack me is usually that high that block-heal doesn’t help. Have also heard that block would be bugged but probably they are just pressuring threw block(usually pressure by spamming spam able and burst skills). With block heal my stamina also goes empty very fast but often damage still kills me earlier. Keeping up endless pressure seems to be possible without sustain issues. Dodge roll also doesn’t seem reliable I regulary still get hit. And getting distance is also difficult because most players don’t have problems following me if I sprint away with major expedition.

You break LoS (line of sight). That means you try to fight at the places where you can run around the corners indefinitely (ever wondered why 1xX players like edge towers and resource towers?).

Block-heal is a last resort. And you can't sustain 1v2 pressure using costly heals, you need to remove uptime on their damage and don't allow them to combine their burst - and LoS break does exactly that.

Whether you use block and rolls more proactively depends on their cost. You can stack sturdy or stack well-fitted.

And yes, offense cost less resources than defense. So find the openings to put some delayed skills on, find time when they are separated to burst in several GCD. If it doesn't work, put your heals up and continue.

It depends on your build, for a tank it is cheaper to heal for dps it is cheaper to attack. it has to do with effective HP, a tanks healing with full resist is effectively four times the number on the tooltip due to ~50% damage reduction and 50% armor mitigation. conversely a DPS damage tool tip is roughly 1/4 what is displayed against a tank but only about 1/2 against a squishy, plus the DPS likely doesn't have as high armor so its own healing is less effective.

This is why tanks have an increasing advantage the longer the fight lasts against a glass cannon.

taugrim

veeboraub17_ESO wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Technically squishy, high penetration builds SHOULD counter tanks. There's nothing more demoralising than building a tank shredder and barely denting their armor, because that's all you're good for.

Nooooo squishy targets destroy other squishy targets.

Wtf is the point in being a tank if a single DD can rip through your defense?

Squishy should LOSE to longer TTK tanky specs and blow up other squishies

I'm not saying they should be able to one shot a 40k tank. I'm saying you should be able to dent their armor and at least apply some pressure before they leap on you and kill you in a single blow.

This is gross exaggeration.

If it's a 40k tank, that means they pumped their health and armor to there point where their damage is going to be low.

With stats, you have to make tradeoff decisions. There's no such thing as a high health, high armor, and high damage build.

For sure DK leap is powerful, but from a tank it's main to apply CC / disrupt and recover resources. It's the squishier high-damage builds that pack heavy burst with leap and follow-up attacks (Dizzying -> Execution / Reverse Slice).

My point is that if you go Stam NB full damage, you won't get close to kill a decent tank. And, the tank low damage is more than enough to kill a full-on NightBlade damage build as long as it has a gap closer.

If you're dying to a high-health, high-armor tank, that is a skill issue. Regardless of what class / build you have.

I play in higher/high-end MMR, and I see plenty of Stamblades would do great.

divnyi

chuckythexii wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

It is high damage patch because ZoS removed old cp and but compensated only for loss of offensive cp. 10% damage reduction per player is negated by reducing battle spirit damage reduction to 44%. Players build more tanky to compensate damage increase. Players build tanky but they are not really tanky. Even with pariah defense is difficult.

This thread is about noCP.

Iriidius wrote: »

I would like to know how you build such tanks that don’t even get pressured before they one shoot you. The pressure if a player with high damage or a few zerglings attack me is usually that high that block-heal doesn’t help. Have also heard that block would be bugged but probably they are just pressuring threw block(usually pressure by spamming spam able and burst skills). With block heal my stamina also goes empty very fast but often damage still kills me earlier. Keeping up endless pressure seems to be possible without sustain issues. Dodge roll also doesn’t seem reliable I regulary still get hit. And getting distance is also difficult because most players don’t have problems following me if I sprint away with major expedition.

You break LoS (line of sight). That means you try to fight at the places where you can run around the corners indefinitely (ever wondered why 1xX players like edge towers and resource towers?).

Block-heal is a last resort. And you can't sustain 1v2 pressure using costly heals, you need to remove uptime on their damage and don't allow them to combine their burst - and LoS break does exactly that.

Whether you use block and rolls more proactively depends on their cost. You can stack sturdy or stack well-fitted.

And yes, offense cost less resources than defense. So find the openings to put some delayed skills on, find time when they are separated to burst in several GCD. If it doesn't work, put your heals up and continue.

It depends on your build, for a tank it is cheaper to heal for dps it is cheaper to attack. it has to do with effective HP, a tanks healing with full resist is effectively four times the number on the tooltip due to ~50% damage reduction and 50% armor mitigation. conversely a DPS damage tool tip is roughly 1/4 what is displayed against a tank but only about 1/2 against a squishy, plus the DPS likely doesn't have as high armor so its own healing is less effective.

This is why tanks have an increasing advantage the longer the fight lasts against a glass cannon.

It costs to burst heal on tanks no less than it costs on DPS. Actually, even more, since DPS likely wear light/medium and have cost reductions coupled with better regen.

If you look on dot/delayed/spammable costs and look on burst heal costs, you'll immediately notice how much do they differ.

Fawn4287

taugrim wrote: »

veeboraub17_ESO wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Technically squishy, high penetration builds SHOULD counter tanks. There's nothing more demoralising than building a tank shredder and barely denting their armor, because that's all you're good for.

Nooooo squishy targets destroy other squishy targets.

Wtf is the point in being a tank if a single DD can rip through your defense?

Squishy should LOSE to longer TTK tanky specs and blow up other squishies

I'm not saying they should be able to one shot a 40k tank. I'm saying you should be able to dent their armor and at least apply some pressure before they leap on you and kill you in a single blow.

This is gross exaggeration.

If it's a 40k tank, that means they pumped their health and armor to there point where their damage is going to be low.

With stats, you have to make tradeoff decisions. There's no such thing as a high health, high armor, and high damage build.

For sure DK leap is powerful, but from a tank it's main to apply CC / disrupt and recover resources. It's the squishier high-damage builds that pack heavy burst with leap and follow-up attacks (Dizzying -> Execution / Reverse Slice).

My point is that if you go Stam NB full damage, you won't get close to kill a decent tank. And, the tank low damage is more than enough to kill a full-on NightBlade damage build as long as it has a gap closer.

If you're dying to a high-health, high-armor tank, that is a skill issue. Regardless of what class / build you have.

I play in higher/high-end MMR, and I see plenty of Stamblades would do great.

You can play a stamblade in stuhn, balorgh and heartland conquer with a sharpened axe or maul or play it in deadric trickery and pariah with balorgh, either way you are just not beating a standard werewolf build from this patch. Nothing has the consistent damage needed to widdle one down or have anything close to enough burst with enough tankyness to go toe to toe with a werewolf built properly.

chuckythexii

divnyi wrote: »

chuckythexii wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

It is high damage patch because ZoS removed old cp and but compensated only for loss of offensive cp. 10% damage reduction per player is negated by reducing battle spirit damage reduction to 44%. Players build more tanky to compensate damage increase. Players build tanky but they are not really tanky. Even with pariah defense is difficult.

This thread is about noCP.

Iriidius wrote: »

I would like to know how you build such tanks that don’t even get pressured before they one shoot you. The pressure if a player with high damage or a few zerglings attack me is usually that high that block-heal doesn’t help. Have also heard that block would be bugged but probably they are just pressuring threw block(usually pressure by spamming spam able and burst skills). With block heal my stamina also goes empty very fast but often damage still kills me earlier. Keeping up endless pressure seems to be possible without sustain issues. Dodge roll also doesn’t seem reliable I regulary still get hit. And getting distance is also difficult because most players don’t have problems following me if I sprint away with major expedition.

You break LoS (line of sight). That means you try to fight at the places where you can run around the corners indefinitely (ever wondered why 1xX players like edge towers and resource towers?).

Block-heal is a last resort. And you can't sustain 1v2 pressure using costly heals, you need to remove uptime on their damage and don't allow them to combine their burst - and LoS break does exactly that.

Whether you use block and rolls more proactively depends on their cost. You can stack sturdy or stack well-fitted.

And yes, offense cost less resources than defense. So find the openings to put some delayed skills on, find time when they are separated to burst in several GCD. If it doesn't work, put your heals up and continue.

It depends on your build, for a tank it is cheaper to heal for dps it is cheaper to attack. it has to do with effective HP, a tanks healing with full resist is effectively four times the number on the tooltip due to ~50% damage reduction and 50% armor mitigation. conversely a DPS damage tool tip is roughly 1/4 what is displayed against a tank but only about 1/2 against a squishy, plus the DPS likely doesn't have as high armor so its own healing is less effective.

This is why tanks have an increasing advantage the longer the fight lasts against a glass cannon.

It costs to burst heal on tanks no less than it costs on DPS. Actually, even more, since DPS likely wear light/medium and have cost reductions coupled with better regen.

If you look on dot/delayed/spammable costs and look on burst heal costs, you'll immediately notice how much do they differ.

You are not taking into account the effective healing/damage differential which is caused by the superior mitigation of a tank.

to get the resource cost of doing damage you need to divide the tooltip damage by the tooltip cost then you have to reduce that by the target's mitigation to get the actual unit resource per unit damage cost.

Conversely for effective health restoration you divide the healing by resource cost of the tooltip then increase that by the targets mitigation to get the unit resource per unit healed cost.

For example, an attack that does 100 dmg with resource cost of 100 against a target with 50% total mitigation will actually do 50 units of damage. Giving a resource cost per damage of .5, meaning every 1 unit of resource spent deals half an hp of damage. If that same target has a heal which restores 100 with a resource cost of 100 that 50% mitigation actually doubles the effect of the heal instead of halving it meaning for every 1 resource spent healing the tank gets 2 effective hp.

This differential is why it is at all possible to 1vX.

The different skills effects should not be considered in this because it should be assumed that an equally competent player will build their damage abilities and heal abilities to make equally efficient use of their stats. IE Stam dps will use stack stam to buff their stam abilities, tanks will stack health and use health based heals. Both will take advantage of appropriate armor passives med damage/sustain or heavy healing/sustain bonus.

chuckythexii

Fawn4287 wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

veeboraub17_ESO wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

Its like, "I cant killing people with my gank build at BG, pls change the game."

No. if BG were to look like a big roulette with one shot / combo builds ... BG has had enough problems.

Technically squishy, high penetration builds SHOULD counter tanks. There's nothing more demoralising than building a tank shredder and barely denting their armor, because that's all you're good for.

Nooooo squishy targets destroy other squishy targets.

Wtf is the point in being a tank if a single DD can rip through your defense?

Squishy should LOSE to longer TTK tanky specs and blow up other squishies

I'm not saying they should be able to one shot a 40k tank. I'm saying you should be able to dent their armor and at least apply some pressure before they leap on you and kill you in a single blow.

This is gross exaggeration.

If it's a 40k tank, that means they pumped their health and armor to there point where their damage is going to be low.

With stats, you have to make tradeoff decisions. There's no such thing as a high health, high armor, and high damage build.

For sure DK leap is powerful, but from a tank it's main to apply CC / disrupt and recover resources. It's the squishier high-damage builds that pack heavy burst with leap and follow-up attacks (Dizzying -> Execution / Reverse Slice).

My point is that if you go Stam NB full damage, you won't get close to kill a decent tank. And, the tank low damage is more than enough to kill a full-on NightBlade damage build as long as it has a gap closer.

If you're dying to a high-health, high-armor tank, that is a skill issue. Regardless of what class / build you have.

I play in higher/high-end MMR, and I see plenty of Stamblades would do great.

You can play a stamblade in stuhn, balorgh and heartland conquer with a sharpened axe or maul or play it in deadric trickery and pariah with balorgh, either way you are just not beating a standard werewolf build from this patch. Nothing has the consistent damage needed to widdle one down or have anything close to enough burst with enough tankyness to go toe to toe with a werewolf built properly.

This is not the WW complaint thread, this is the Tank complaint thread.

Also it is quite possible to build a nightblade that can beat a WW. Given the sets you chose as an example I'd say you are not being creative enough. There are a lots more effects in this game than just buffing damage, resists, or pen.

Xahran

veeboraub17_ESO wrote: »

I can see Tanky Templar, Necromancer, eventually, DKs ruling the show. The Sorcs seems to be less tanky, but its burst damage and streak mobility seem to compensate for it.

Of course, the immobile classes [Templar, Necro, DK and Warden] have to build tanky because they don't have the luxury to choose when and where to fight like Sorcs and specially NBs. Once they are ambushed or go in a fight they can barely get out, so going full dps with them is something reserved for pro players.

Also again, the problem isn't with tankiness, the problem lies in the high damage numbers we have now that forces people to go tanky so they don't get bursted in seconds and also enables the same players to confidently build tanky knowing they will still have good damage without going full dps.

Nerfing tankiness isn't a good thing for the game at all or else we will have Elder Battlefield Online: Call of Fortnite. Tankiness is necessary to have any fights at all and I would rather have long boring tanky fights rather than no fights at all aka flipping a coin and seeing which will get one-shot first. Low ttk will make active combat skills like healing, blocking, dodging, pressuring, bursting, resource management and LOS useless.

divnyi

chuckythexii wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

chuckythexii wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

It is high damage patch because ZoS removed old cp and but compensated only for loss of offensive cp. 10% damage reduction per player is negated by reducing battle spirit damage reduction to 44%. Players build more tanky to compensate damage increase. Players build tanky but they are not really tanky. Even with pariah defense is difficult.

This thread is about noCP.

Iriidius wrote: »

I would like to know how you build such tanks that don’t even get pressured before they one shoot you. The pressure if a player with high damage or a few zerglings attack me is usually that high that block-heal doesn’t help. Have also heard that block would be bugged but probably they are just pressuring threw block(usually pressure by spamming spam able and burst skills). With block heal my stamina also goes empty very fast but often damage still kills me earlier. Keeping up endless pressure seems to be possible without sustain issues. Dodge roll also doesn’t seem reliable I regulary still get hit. And getting distance is also difficult because most players don’t have problems following me if I sprint away with major expedition.

You break LoS (line of sight). That means you try to fight at the places where you can run around the corners indefinitely (ever wondered why 1xX players like edge towers and resource towers?).

Block-heal is a last resort. And you can't sustain 1v2 pressure using costly heals, you need to remove uptime on their damage and don't allow them to combine their burst - and LoS break does exactly that.

Whether you use block and rolls more proactively depends on their cost. You can stack sturdy or stack well-fitted.

And yes, offense cost less resources than defense. So find the openings to put some delayed skills on, find time when they are separated to burst in several GCD. If it doesn't work, put your heals up and continue.

It depends on your build, for a tank it is cheaper to heal for dps it is cheaper to attack. it has to do with effective HP, a tanks healing with full resist is effectively four times the number on the tooltip due to ~50% damage reduction and 50% armor mitigation. conversely a DPS damage tool tip is roughly 1/4 what is displayed against a tank but only about 1/2 against a squishy, plus the DPS likely doesn't have as high armor so its own healing is less effective.

This is why tanks have an increasing advantage the longer the fight lasts against a glass cannon.

It costs to burst heal on tanks no less than it costs on DPS. Actually, even more, since DPS likely wear light/medium and have cost reductions coupled with better regen.

If you look on dot/delayed/spammable costs and look on burst heal costs, you'll immediately notice how much do they differ.

You are not taking into account the effective healing/damage differential which is caused by the superior mitigation of a tank.

to get the resource cost of doing damage you need to divide the tooltip damage by the tooltip cost then you have to reduce that by the target's mitigation to get the actual unit resource per unit damage cost.

This is incorrect. Effect/cost effectiveness doesn't define sustain, sustain is defined by cost/GCD, because you will spam abilities at this rate. It requires a whole lot of sustain to run full healer, for example, because burst heals cost a whole lot, and you will spam em (why else you are picking healer anyway?).

SpiritofESO

chuckythexii

divnyi wrote: »

chuckythexii wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

chuckythexii wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

It is high damage patch because ZoS removed old cp and but compensated only for loss of offensive cp. 10% damage reduction per player is negated by reducing battle spirit damage reduction to 44%. Players build more tanky to compensate damage increase. Players build tanky but they are not really tanky. Even with pariah defense is difficult.

This thread is about noCP.

Iriidius wrote: »

I would like to know how you build such tanks that don’t even get pressured before they one shoot you. The pressure if a player with high damage or a few zerglings attack me is usually that high that block-heal doesn’t help. Have also heard that block would be bugged but probably they are just pressuring threw block(usually pressure by spamming spam able and burst skills). With block heal my stamina also goes empty very fast but often damage still kills me earlier. Keeping up endless pressure seems to be possible without sustain issues. Dodge roll also doesn’t seem reliable I regulary still get hit. And getting distance is also difficult because most players don’t have problems following me if I sprint away with major expedition.

You break LoS (line of sight). That means you try to fight at the places where you can run around the corners indefinitely (ever wondered why 1xX players like edge towers and resource towers?).

Block-heal is a last resort. And you can't sustain 1v2 pressure using costly heals, you need to remove uptime on their damage and don't allow them to combine their burst - and LoS break does exactly that.

Whether you use block and rolls more proactively depends on their cost. You can stack sturdy or stack well-fitted.

And yes, offense cost less resources than defense. So find the openings to put some delayed skills on, find time when they are separated to burst in several GCD. If it doesn't work, put your heals up and continue.

It depends on your build, for a tank it is cheaper to heal for dps it is cheaper to attack. it has to do with effective HP, a tanks healing with full resist is effectively four times the number on the tooltip due to ~50% damage reduction and 50% armor mitigation. conversely a DPS damage tool tip is roughly 1/4 what is displayed against a tank but only about 1/2 against a squishy, plus the DPS likely doesn't have as high armor so its own healing is less effective.

This is why tanks have an increasing advantage the longer the fight lasts against a glass cannon.

It costs to burst heal on tanks no less than it costs on DPS. Actually, even more, since DPS likely wear light/medium and have cost reductions coupled with better regen.

If you look on dot/delayed/spammable costs and look on burst heal costs, you'll immediately notice how much do they differ.

You are not taking into account the effective healing/damage differential which is caused by the superior mitigation of a tank.

to get the resource cost of doing damage you need to divide the tooltip damage by the tooltip cost then you have to reduce that by the target's mitigation to get the actual unit resource per unit damage cost.

This is incorrect. Effect/cost effectiveness doesn't define sustain, sustain is defined by cost/GCD, because you will spam abilities at this rate. It requires a whole lot of sustain to run full healer, for example, because burst heals cost a whole lot, and you will spam em (why else you are picking healer anyway?).

well for one who said anything about healers? I was talking about tanks in a thread about tanks. No serious tank is gonna go into pug BG without self heals because you can't trust team-mates to heal you.

Sustainment is all the factors that go into resource management, both regen and consumption, If you are wasting resources spamming expensive burst heals needlessly you are not gonna sustain for very long. If it costs me half as much to heal the damage you do to me than for you to deal it in the first place I am going to out sustain you.