Should there be one more role in ESO?

GodKingScormxon

I feel there is no support for hybrid builds and I feel there should be 1 more role a Jack of all trades role or Jack for short. For the people who like to play characters that use both a restoration staff in on bar and sword and shield, two- handed sword, bow, or destruction staff on the other bar.

Amottica

Disagree

A Hybrid build that focuses on dealing damage already has a role. We call it a damage dealer (or DPS), albeit a lower damage level than with a purebuild.

A healer that can do DPS is a healer that does DPS. It does not need a special role as this is a very common build for PvP and much of the 4 man content when they bring a healer.

A tank that can heal is still the tank.

No special role is needed. Though I will admit the question posed permits us to determine what a hybrid build is.

I do like the way we seem to be tricked into selecting "Strongly Agree" since the options lead us to think the bottom Strongly Agree would be Strongly Disagree based on the flow of available responses.

So please read carefully before responding as we can only disagree, not Strongly disagree. Basically 4 options to agree with one option in the middle to disagree.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

I'm actually referring to the people who use a restoration staff on one bar and a sword and board or two handed weapon in the other some players tend to wrongful kick players that use such in dungeons.

Amottica

Disagree

GodKingScormxon wrote: »

I'm actually referring to the people who use a restoration staff on one bar and a sword and board or two handed weapon in the other some players tend to wrongful kick players that use such in dungeons.

The question does not suggest that. Nor does it suggest what they think their role in that group is or what they are trying to do.

I would think they are either a tank or healer or both. As such, if they were in a tank role, and they were tanking, then they are fine. If they are in a healer role and healer but taunting off the tank I would ask them to stop and kick them if they did not. If they were in a damage role and taunting off the tank or not doing damage I can see why they would be kicked as well. I am pretty sure none of the 4 man dungeons we can queue for really need a second tank or two healers.

So there is no need for an additional role.

PS. this does not change that the available responses are either skewed to provide favorable results or accidentally messed up.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

But look that is an example of unsporting type behavior and it's can be reported to Microsoft there is no reason any can tell another player how to play the game.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

And that's why there needs to be another role so players can't be kick for playing they they want as long as there not using offensive language or are inactive.

Amottica

Disagree

GodKingScormxon wrote: »

But look that is an example of unsporting type behavior and it's can be reported to Microsoft there is no reason any can tell another player how to play the game.

True. No one can truly force someone to play the game a certain way. On the flip side of the conversation, if they were causing problems then the group would be justified in kicking the player.

You still have not defined what their role really is. I have already noted if they are tanking they need to queue as a tank. No one is going to complain about a tank that can toss some heals as long as the tank keeps focus on their main task of tanking.

If their focus is any of the other roles they need to queue for that role. If they are not the tank, and they are taunting off the tank, they should not be surprised if they get vote kicked.

This is fairly standard in MMORPGs. Even in games that do have an additional role, it is not a jack-of-all-trades but maybe a controller who is expected to control

colossalvoids

Disagree

Only if that's usable role, support of sorts but that would need full classes and game overhaul so it's unlikely. "Jack of all trades" can queue as any role currently, it just require ability to perform the role they've chosen. Do they heal now, tank or doing damage. If it's tag along do nothing it's a pass obviously.

VaranisArano

I think the Devs should consider ways to make hybrid builds more viable. As it is, they just destroyed one of the favorite sets for hybrid players: Pelinal's Aptitude.

ESO wasn't always quite as biased towards max stam/max mag builds as it is now, and the Devs could make the game more forgiving for hybrid builds if they wanted.

That being said, hybrid builds can be very effective in all content provided the player is skilled enough. Certainly hybrids can perform all three roles in a dungeon: tank, healer, and damage dealer.


Now, yes, there are some players who will take one look at a non-standard build and judge it immediately. In my experience, most players won't care as long as you are capable of fulfilling your role in the dungeon. Especially if you stick to normal dungeons. Those are geared for first time players with no CP - there's really no reason why people are sticklers about builds there as long as you can fulfill your role.

1. Tanks need to hold aggro on the boss, stay alive, and follow mechanics.
2. Healers need to stay alive and keep their teammates alive, preferably with buffs.
3. Damage Dealers need to deal damage sufficient to defeat the boss and adds. (Honestly, 10k damage is just fine for the majority of normal dungeons. We're not talking a high bar here.)

However, if you are constantly being criticized in dungeons, I suggest you look at how well you are fulfilling the role you chose.

One-hand and shield/Resto staff is a perfectly viable tank or healer build. Just keep in mind that the Puncture 1H&S skill is a taunt. So you should only ever use that if you are tanking. It's going to be a struggle for a Damage Dealer to do reasonable damage with those weapon skills. If you want to play damage dealer but aren't sure what damage you do, I strongly suggest seeing if you can use a target dummy. There's a free one from the Clockwork City DLC, or you can buy one on guild traders if you don't have a guild house with one.

I'll be honest, I would raise my eyebrow over a Damage Dealer with One Hand and Shield, but I wouldn't say anything unless you started taunting the boss. Then I'd warn you, and after that, "You taunt it, you tank it." So if you aren't taunting, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it. It's pretty hard to fail a normal dungeon for lack of DPS.

With all that in mind, there is no need for a "jack of all trades" in dungeons. There is no point in having an off-tank/second healer/lackluster damage dealer, which is effectively what a jack of all trades would be.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

And fyi I can't do enough damage to be a dps I don't have high enough resistances to be a tank and am a Solo gamer that heals my self and I have enough skill points to do be able to run both a restoration staff on one bar and a dual weapons on the other or sword and shield on one bar or two-handed weapon on the other bar with full passives on each skill lines.

Amerises

Maybe Agree

Purely buff class. Buffs resistances, damages, resource pools, major and minor buffs.

Then each class can be even more specific!

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

Thanks for your insight. I appreciate it.

Amottica

Disagree

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think the Devs should consider ways to make hybrid builds more viable.

As it is, they just destroyed one of the favorite sets for hybrid players: Pelinal's Aptitude.

ESO wasn't always quite as biased towards max stam/max mag builds as it is now, and the Devs could make the game more forgiving for hybrid builds if they wanted.

That being said, hybrid builds can be very effective in all content provided the player is skilled enough. Certainly hybrids can perform all three roles in a dungeon: tank, healer, and damage dealer.


Now, yes, there are some players who will take one look at a non-standard build and judge it immediately. In my experience, most players won't care as long as you are capable of fulfilling your role in the dungeon. Especially if you stick to normal dungeons. Those are geared for first time players with no CP - there's really no reason why people are sticklers about builds there as long as you can fulfill your role.

1. Tanks need to hold aggro on the boss, stay alive, and follow mechanics.
2. Healers need to stay alive and keep their teammates alive, preferably with buffs.
3. Damage Dealers need to deal damage sufficient to defeat the boss and adds. (Honestly, 10k damage is just fine for the majority of normal dungeons. We're not talking a high bar here.)

However, if you are constantly being criticized in dungeons, I suggest you look at how well you are fulfilling the role you chose.

One-hand and shield/Resto staff is a perfectly viable tank or healer build. Just keep in mind that the Puncture 1H&S skill is a taunt. So you should only ever use that if you are tanking. It's going to be a struggle for a Damage Dealer to do reasonable damage with those weapon skills. If you want to play damage dealer but aren't sure what damage you do, I strongly suggest seeing if you can use a target dummy. There's a free one from the Clockwork City DLC, or you can buy one on guild traders if you don't have a guild house with one.

I'll be honest, I would raise my eyebrow over a Damage Dealer with One Hand and Shield, but I wouldn't say anything unless you started taunting the boss. Then I'd warn you, and after that, "You taunt it, you tank it." So if you aren't taunting, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it. It's pretty hard to fail a normal dungeon for lack of DPS.

With all that in mind, there is no need for a "jack of all trades" in dungeons. There is no point in having an off-tank/second healer/lackluster damage dealer, which is effectively what a jack of all trades would be.

@VaranisArano

This is not about that kind of hybrid build. It is a jack-of-all-trades build. I suggest reading their post above this one, #10 in the thread.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

I'm honestly new to the types of builds I don't even use one my build suggestions is turned off.

Amottica

Disagree

GodKingScormxon wrote: »

And fyi I can't do enough damage to be a dps I don't have high enough resistances to be a tank and am a Solo gamer that heals my self and I have enough skill points to do be able to run both a restoration staff on one bar and a dual weapons on the other or sword and shield on one bar or two-handed weapon on the other bar with full passives on each skill lines.

Based on this I am going to suggest you go as a healer and maybe even queue for normal dungeons until you get comfortable. Also, do not slot the S&B taunt on the S&B bar since taunting off the tank is a good way to get bad attention.

When you get comfortable with the dungeons you may want to consider slotting the taunt and tanking normal dungeons and do not stress about the resistance. I think you will be fine. Over time you may want to refine tanking build (which can be different than your solo questing build) you can try the vet dungeons.

As you get more skill points and get more comfortable with the game you may want to do a tank or dps build. It does not have to be meta for dungeons, just enough to hold your own.

In the end, it is really about the direction you want to go. However, when running with groups in group content we tend to have to be able to handle the roles the game defines unless we want to form our own group with friends.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

I go with even 30k-35k magicka and stamina so when one resource runs out I can switch between them I use twice born star and shackle breaker with two agility rings all golden armor in light, medium, and heavy with different characters using different types of armor always the same type one one character.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

If there was one more role people can know my play style and in return understand we each are different some people just want to be balanced and forced to another will it isn't about builds but more warning other players that a person played using what they feel works best if it doesn't fall in-between any of the 3 roles to be honest all MMORPGs that have group dungeons should have 4 roles. Also 4 is the number of friendship someone once said to me but that has nothing to with this I'm just saying it because it's a belief of mine.

VaranisArano

GodKingScormxon wrote: »

And fyi I can't do enough damage to be a dps I don't have high enough resistances to be a tank and am a Solo gamer that heals my self and I have enough skill points to do be able to run both a restoration staff on one bar and a dual weapons on the other or sword and shield on one bar or two-handed weapon on the other bar with full passives on each skill lines.

You don't need enormously high resistances to tank normal dungeons. You just need to be able to not die to the boss. How you do that varies according to your build.

My MagSorc Tank does it on a 1 bar-heavy attack pet build by using Conjured Ward, Twilight Matriarch. She only does about 15k DPS, but that's easily enough to make her into a "jack of all trades" who can heal the party if we get a fake healer and cover for someone with low DPS. But she focuses on tanking - holding aggro on the boss and keeping herself alive comes first.

If you are at all interested in tanking, feel free to state your class and we can try to suggest some good hybrid ideas for a 1Hand & Shield/Resto staff tank. That'll probably mean sets and skills.

A healer should be easier, honestly. Use the resto staff skills on that bar, and your class buffs/heals on your one-hand bar.

If you aren't interested in taking suggestions for your build, then the best I can suggest is practice. Hybrids are viable, with practice.

VaranisArano

Amottica wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think the Devs should consider ways to make hybrid builds more viable.

As it is, they just destroyed one of the favorite sets for hybrid players: Pelinal's Aptitude.

ESO wasn't always quite as biased towards max stam/max mag builds as it is now, and the Devs could make the game more forgiving for hybrid builds if they wanted.

That being said, hybrid builds can be very effective in all content provided the player is skilled enough. Certainly hybrids can perform all three roles in a dungeon: tank, healer, and damage dealer.


Now, yes, there are some players who will take one look at a non-standard build and judge it immediately. In my experience, most players won't care as long as you are capable of fulfilling your role in the dungeon. Especially if you stick to normal dungeons. Those are geared for first time players with no CP - there's really no reason why people are sticklers about builds there as long as you can fulfill your role.

1. Tanks need to hold aggro on the boss, stay alive, and follow mechanics.
2. Healers need to stay alive and keep their teammates alive, preferably with buffs.
3. Damage Dealers need to deal damage sufficient to defeat the boss and adds. (Honestly, 10k damage is just fine for the majority of normal dungeons. We're not talking a high bar here.)

However, if you are constantly being criticized in dungeons, I suggest you look at how well you are fulfilling the role you chose.

One-hand and shield/Resto staff is a perfectly viable tank or healer build. Just keep in mind that the Puncture 1H&S skill is a taunt. So you should only ever use that if you are tanking. It's going to be a struggle for a Damage Dealer to do reasonable damage with those weapon skills. If you want to play damage dealer but aren't sure what damage you do, I strongly suggest seeing if you can use a target dummy. There's a free one from the Clockwork City DLC, or you can buy one on guild traders if you don't have a guild house with one.

I'll be honest, I would raise my eyebrow over a Damage Dealer with One Hand and Shield, but I wouldn't say anything unless you started taunting the boss. Then I'd warn you, and after that, "You taunt it, you tank it." So if you aren't taunting, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it. It's pretty hard to fail a normal dungeon for lack of DPS.

With all that in mind, there is no need for a "jack of all trades" in dungeons. There is no point in having an off-tank/second healer/lackluster damage dealer, which is effectively what a jack of all trades would be.

@VaranisArano

This is not about that kind of hybrid build. It is a jack-of-all-trades build. I suggest reading their post above this one, #10 in the thread.

In past threads, this player has a hybrid mag/stam build, hence why I'm bringing it up as a part of my response.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

I have a few tanks I have never ran into a problem with being a tank just dps and I don't really do healer much. But I used to go with a Jack of trades like character but I don't anymore because of people who kicked me because they didn't like it and ever since then I wanted a new role so people can't kick me for it I did report those people to Microsoft each time because I was never told what each role really meant and I don't really agree with kicking people because of how good or bad they are and only in kicking people who use offensive language or have be afk for 5 minutes or so my weakness was being to nice to these people giving them the crown and letting them invite there friends so I know they were just being trolls so like I said I reported them to Microsoft for unsporting type behavior because that kind of behavior is unacceptable were I come from it's mean and unfair to that person.

Amottica

Disagree

No offense but you call the build jack of all trades but have not actually stated what you do with it other than you have low DPS and can heal yourself. We do not even know what role you queue as or what dungeons (vet or normal) you queue for. Try explaining this as we may be able to offer some advice of what to do or not to do.

Also, players can kick for any reason they choose, it takes multiple players to vote to kick. Microsft is not going to step in because someone gets kicked for having low DPS or that they are taunting off the tank.

VaranisArano

GodKingScormxon wrote: »

I have a few tanks I have never ran into a problem with being a tank just dps and I don't really do healer much. But I used to go with a Jack of trades like character but I don't anymore because of people who kicked me because they didn't like it and ever since then I wanted a new role so people can't kick me for it I did report those people to Microsoft each time because I was never told what each role really meant and I don't really agree with kicking people because of how good or bad they are and only in kicking people who use offensive language or have be afk for 5 minutes or so my weakness was being to nice to these people giving them the crown and letting them invite there friends so I know they were just being trolls so like I said I reported them to Microsoft for unsporting type behavior because that kind of behavior is unacceptable were I come from it's mean and unfair to that person.

Then if you have a few tanks, what's the problem? Queue up on your tank characters, keep taunting the boss, stay alive, and half the groups in Normal Dungeons will be absolutely delighted that they got a real tank this time!

If the problem is that your "jack of all trades" character can't tank, can't heal, and can't deal damage, then that character needs some work before queuing up for a role in group content. You can't expect 3 other players to carry you just because you showed up. If your character can't or won't do the job you queued up for to the point that it's causing problems, then the group should vote kick, because then they can get someone who will actually do the job.

You might not agree with kicking someone based on how good or bad they are, but frankly, your character has to be able to do the basics of the job you queue up for. Otherwise it's unfair to the three other people in your group.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

Microsoft doesn't allow such things because those people involved there friends to gang up on me and your not going if you have been reported and kicking someone because they are not good enough is a troll move I was a dps last time and I found it highly unfair I didn't use taunts as dps in dungeons I just played to the best of my ability having a new prevents people from being reported and from being kicked because not everyone can grasp such a concept no one is perfect at what they do and ganging up on people is not cool I don't know we're some people get their logic from but you should be respectful to other players it's not about being wrong or right it about being far and sporting. I have never had such a problem in battlegrounds and not with a below 50 character just on vet with random people nice people will quit mean player gang up on you it's never happened when I invited people from my guild in a dungeon just with random people.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

Jack of trade player can do two of the three with the right weapon and gear sets I know it to be true if there was one more weapon bar slot then they can do all three. That's another thing I suggest in my feed back on Xbox.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

There is always a way and nothing is impossible only improbable if you put your mind to it you can do it never underestimate your opponent.

VaranisArano

GodKingScormxon wrote: »

Microsoft doesn't allow such things because those people involved there friends to gang up on me and your not going if you have been reported and kicking someone because they are not good enough is a troll move I was a dps last time and I found it highly unfair I didn't use taunts as dps in dungeons I just played to the best of my ability having a new prevents people from being reported and from being kicked because not everyone can grasp such a concept no one is perfect at what they do and ganging up on people is not cool I don't know we're some people get their logic from but you should be respectful to other players it's not about being wrong or right it about being far and sporting. I have never had such a problem in battlegrounds and not with a below 50 character just on vet with random people nice people will quit mean player gang up on you it's never happened when I invited people from my guild in a dungeon just with random people.

Generally guildmates will be a lot more forgiving of guilds running odd builds, so if you want to continue to run your "jack of all trades" you'll probably have better luck running with guilds. Especially if you want to avoid trolls, because trolling guilds is a good way to get kicked from guild.

When you play with random, you get random people with random expectations and skill levels. And sometimes you get trolls.

GodKingScormxon wrote: »

I'm honestly new to the types of builds I don't even use one my build suggestions is turned off.

What class?

And since you've said you struggle with building in the past using ESO's system, you really might try using the in-game Skills Advisor that ZOS set up to help people make effective builds for ESO. They aren't always meta, but most of the ones I've tried have been solid.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

The only reason I use taunt and I just recently started is to keep my companion alive when facing world bosses by myself other wise I don't use it.

Amottica

Disagree

VaranisArano wrote: »

GodKingScormxon wrote: »

Microsoft doesn't allow such things because those people involved there friends to gang up on me and your not going if you have been reported and kicking someone because they are not good enough is a troll move I was a dps last time and I found it highly unfair I didn't use taunts as dps in dungeons I just played to the best of my ability having a new prevents people from being reported and from being kicked because not everyone can grasp such a concept no one is perfect at what they do and ganging up on people is not cool I don't know we're some people get their logic from but you should be respectful to other players it's not about being wrong or right it about being far and sporting. I have never had such a problem in battlegrounds and not with a below 50 character just on vet with random people nice people will quit mean player gang up on you it's never happened when I invited people from my guild in a dungeon just with random people.

Generally guildmates will be a lot more forgiving of guilds running odd builds, so if you want to continue to run your "jack of all trades" you'll probably have better luck running with guilds. Especially if you want to avoid trolls, because trolling guilds is a good way to get kicked from guild.

When you play with random, you get random people with random expectations and skill levels. And sometimes you get trolls..

Even more so when running with guild members you have gotten to know.

When running with a group of players there is a group to consider. Any group has the right to choose to not run with someone they do not want to run with even when the group was formed via the group finder. Microsoft will not remove the ability to vote kick a member who the majority of the group deems to be causing a problem.

If you think it is harassment then you may report it to Zenimax in-game. I suggest taking screenshots of any related chat and providing them to Zenimax. They will determine if their activities are in violation of the TOS or not.

If you are interested in improving your build to make it more favorable for running dungeons with GF groups I suggest taking @VaranisArano up on their offer and provide them with the basic information they requested.

zvavi

Disagree

I have tanked vFV when it came out, on a frost/resto build, with no healer in group, when it came out. And it is one of the hardest dungeons for a tank. Hybrid builds are viable, if you can make them work. If you don't try to make them work, and don't bring anything to the group (no damage, no heals, no tanking) then I am very sorry, that's not a role, that's being an a-hole by going into group content while expecting to do nothing for the group

edit: apologies, i meant vFV hm. and yes, without a healer. the lack of hm didnt show enough impact of how well the build did. and yes, i brought support to group, breach (at the time there was no minor on pierce armor), crusher, yoln, ebon (ebon was the tankier support set i chose to go with yoln ). and no, i dont remember the monster set i used at the time.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

I have a friend who was able to beat a dungeon fungal grotto 1 on veteran me hand him beat it together he was 810+ I was barely 160+ at the time it was lots of fun he spent $10000+ on this game but he switched over to computer because of a glitch in pvp he was having were his stamina and magicka would not regain after he died and was use a soul gem to comeback to life I admire him because I couldn't never start from scratch it's to bad you can't transfer data from one server to another.

moo_2021

GodKingScormxon wrote: »

And fyi I can't do enough damage to be a dps I don't have high enough resistances to be a tank and am a Solo gamer that heals my self and I have enough skill points to do be able to run both a restoration staff on one bar and a dual weapons on the other or sword and shield on one bar or two-handed weapon on the other bar with full passives on each skill lines.

In normal dungeon, my sorc only have 24-25k resist as I'm usually busy taunting enemies and healing teammates, and forget to apply boundless storm. My HP is only 37k without food (all attributes are on magicka), but most are really unused. I use two lightning staves, doing heavy attacks between taunting and never block.

The key is strong passive self-healing: Strategic Reserve CP which adds 1500 health recovery, and the hardening enchantment on staff - it's 5 to 7K free shield every 4-5 seconds, which absorbs 50% to 80% of damage. I rarely need to heal myself even in DLC dungeons.