Vampires upside down?

Gleitfrosch

Not talking about how they sleep but about the stages.

Shouldn't a vampire become stronger and more versatile, the more blood he drinks?
Right now I have the feeling that the higher my vampire stage is, the more limited and weaker I become. The downsides of a well fed vampire (high stage) are f.e less healing possibilities, more fire damage and higher costs of non vampire skill (what pushes me to use vampire skills only). Of course there are some advantages but the disadvantages outweigh them easily.
I expected to be more limited in my skill choices and be more vulnerable if I am weak/thirsty and more resistant and able to use non vampire skills easier when well fed.

Like a thirsty vampire becomes more savage and limited in his abilities while a well fed vampire can conceal his nature easier by f.e. using non vampire skills. Plus thirsty vampires should be weaker (less healing and higher fire damage). This would also give me a reason to feed on humans again instead of leaving my vampire at stage 1.

Sephyr

You'd think so, but unfortunately we're still being punished for engaging with the staging progression. What I found ironic was that Lamae complained that people never fed, cowering in the shadows and now she'd give them a reason to feed. Yet most I've talked to never really progress the staging past Stage 2 since that's the best bang for their buck as a DD.

Still waiting for the reason, Lamae.

Ackwalan

It's an attempt to balance. The stronger the bonus the heavier the negative.

starkerealm

Sephyr wrote: »

You'd think so, but unfortunately we're still being punished for engaging with the staging progression. What I found ironic was that Lamae complained that people never fed, cowering in the shadows and now she'd give them a reason to feed. Yet most I've talked to never really progress the staging past Stage 2 since that's the best bang for their buck as a DD.

Still waiting for the reason, Lamae.

Irony being, before, we'd feed down to Stage 1 to turn off most of the Vampirism effects.

EDIT: Or, at least, feed down to Stage 2 for the recovery passive.

waterfairy

I had a vamp for years that I cured once they changed it to where non-vamp skills cost more (with a useless reduction to vamp skills). The penalty to health regen and flame damage was enough in my opinion.

starkerealm

Vigarr wrote: »

I had a vamp for years that I cured once they changed it to where non-vamp skills cost more (with a useless reduction to vamp skills). The penalty to health regen and flame damage was enough in my opinion.

The penalty to health regen and flame never mattered. I mean, that was the thing, for literally five years, there was no compelling reason not to be a vampire, and two 10% reasons why it was extremely appealing. With Fire Damage, you could ignore that through the old CP system. (And, as a DPS, you didn't have anywhere else to put them.) The Health recovery penalty never mattered. It still only kinda matters at Stage 4, but Stage 4 really shows you how pointless it still is, because there are so many ways to recover health directly, and when your health isn't regenerating on its own, it makes you very aware of what does, and does not, heal you.

Still, I preferred the old vampires, but they had no downsides.

Sephyr

starkerealm wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

You'd think so, but unfortunately we're still being punished for engaging with the staging progression. What I found ironic was that Lamae complained that people never fed, cowering in the shadows and now she'd give them a reason to feed. Yet most I've talked to never really progress the staging past Stage 2 since that's the best bang for their buck as a DD.

Still waiting for the reason, Lamae.

Irony being, before, we'd feed down to Stage 1 to turn off most of the Vampirism effects.

EDIT: Or, at least, feed down to Stage 2 for the recovery passive.

Yep! That was pretty much where I was getting at. Maybe one day they'll revisit that and switch things up. Maybe.

Spurius_Lucilius

Many people are still running Stage 3 vampire for the Undeath passive. It makes you very tanky.

waterfairy

starkerealm wrote: »

Vigarr wrote: »

I had a vamp for years that I cured once they changed it to where non-vamp skills cost more (with a useless reduction to vamp skills). The penalty to health regen and flame damage was enough in my opinion.

The penalty to health regen and flame never mattered. I mean, that was the thing, for literally five years, there was no compelling reason not to be a vampire, and two 10% reasons why it was extremely appealing. With Fire Damage, you could ignore that through the old CP system. (And, as a DPS, you didn't have anywhere else to put them.) The Health recovery penalty never mattered. It still only kinda matters at Stage 4, but Stage 4 really shows you how pointless it still is, because there are so many ways to recover health directly, and when your health isn't regenerating on its own, it makes you very aware of what does, and does not, heal you.

Still, I preferred the old vampires, but they had no downsides.

they were suitable debuffs for vampires though because you can't build a system around day/night cycles. They removed the magic regen buff (meanwhile werewolf kept their stam regen) then reworked vamps into a very niche build. Nobody who uses a vamp slots all vamp skills so reducing those costs while iincreasing others is a *** poor setup.

starkerealm

Vigarr wrote: »

they were suitable debuffs for vampires though because you can't build a system around day/night cycles. They removed the magic regen buff (meanwhile werewolf kept their stam regen) then reworked vamps into a very niche build. Nobody who uses a vamp slots all vamp skills so reducing those costs while iincreasing others is a *** poor setup.

So, I realize this may be new information, but Vampires had a +10% to mag and stam recovery. It made a stage 2 vampire suitable for any role.

Werewolves used to get +15% stam recovery at all times. (This was back in 2014, for reference.) This would later (in 2014) get changed to requiring that they slot the Werewolf transform, which remains true to this day. If you have that ultimate slotted, you get Stam Recovery, at the cost of, you've slotted your transform as your ult.

Like I said, the Dark Brotherhood to Greymoor incarnation of vampires had no downsides. There was no reason not to be a vampire unless you really wanted to be a werewolf. The new incarnation is a lot less flexible, but remains situationally useful, and the cost increase penalty is meaningful.

Sephyr

starkerealm wrote: »

Vigarr wrote: »

they were suitable debuffs for vampires though because you can't build a system around day/night cycles. They removed the magic regen buff (meanwhile werewolf kept their stam regen) then reworked vamps into a very niche build. Nobody who uses a vamp slots all vamp skills so reducing those costs while iincreasing others is a *** poor setup.

So, I realize this may be new information, but Vampires had a +10% to mag and stam recovery. It made a stage 2 vampire suitable for any role.

Werewolves used to get +15% stam recovery at all times. (This was back in 2014, for reference.) This would later (in 2014) get changed to requiring that they slot the Werewolf transform, which remains true to this day. If you have that ultimate slotted, you get Stam Recovery, at the cost of, you've slotted your transform as your ult.

Like I said, the Dark Brotherhood to Greymoor incarnation of vampires had no downsides. There was no reason not to be a vampire unless you really wanted to be a werewolf. The new incarnation is a lot less flexible, but remains situationally useful, and the cost increase penalty is meaningful.

As an aside, I do feel like there's something missing with the current incarnation. I did like how at one point with the earlier versions where every time we'd use skills it'd kill some of the staging timer so we'd have to feed more often to keep at certain stages, at the same time I don't know how well that'd go over considering how many skills we have (despite their usefulness). Back then I feel like there was at least some challenge at keeping the 'blood lust' going, but again given the current state I think that could potentially mess with those situational uses.

waterfairy

starkerealm wrote: »

Vigarr wrote: »

they were suitable debuffs for vampires though because you can't build a system around day/night cycles. They removed the magic regen buff (meanwhile werewolf kept their stam regen) then reworked vamps into a very niche build. Nobody who uses a vamp slots all vamp skills so reducing those costs while iincreasing others is a *** poor setup.

So, I realize this may be new information, but Vampires had a +10% to mag and stam recovery. It made a stage 2 vampire suitable for any role.

Werewolves used to get +15% stam recovery at all times. (This was back in 2014, for reference.) This would later (in 2014) get changed to requiring that they slot the Werewolf transform, which remains true to this day. If you have that ultimate slotted, you get Stam Recovery, at the cost of, you've slotted your transform as your ult.

Like I said, the Dark Brotherhood to Greymoor incarnation of vampires had no downsides. There was no reason not to be a vampire unless you really wanted to be a werewolf. The new incarnation is a lot less flexible, but remains situationally useful, and the cost increase penalty is meaningful.

I don't remember having a buff to stam recovery but you definitely felt the sting of flame and nerf to health recovery at stage 3 and up even with the old cp system...perhaps you stayed at stage 2 or built your character around it using dark elves and whatnot. I agree the old system wasn't great but the new system is worse...it forced me to cure myself because I wasn't built for pure vamp or bombing

Sephyr

Vigarr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Vigarr wrote: »

they were suitable debuffs for vampires though because you can't build a system around day/night cycles. They removed the magic regen buff (meanwhile werewolf kept their stam regen) then reworked vamps into a very niche build. Nobody who uses a vamp slots all vamp skills so reducing those costs while iincreasing others is a *** poor setup.

So, I realize this may be new information, but Vampires had a +10% to mag and stam recovery. It made a stage 2 vampire suitable for any role.

Werewolves used to get +15% stam recovery at all times. (This was back in 2014, for reference.) This would later (in 2014) get changed to requiring that they slot the Werewolf transform, which remains true to this day. If you have that ultimate slotted, you get Stam Recovery, at the cost of, you've slotted your transform as your ult.

Like I said, the Dark Brotherhood to Greymoor incarnation of vampires had no downsides. There was no reason not to be a vampire unless you really wanted to be a werewolf. The new incarnation is a lot less flexible, but remains situationally useful, and the cost increase penalty is meaningful.

I don't remember having a buff to stam recovery but you definitely felt the sting of flame and nerf to health recovery at stage 3 and up even with the old cp system...perhaps you stayed at stage 2 or built your character around it using dark elves and whatnot. I agree the old system wasn't great but the new system is worse...it forced me to cure myself because I wasn't built for pure vamp or bombing

For the record, this was what Supernatural Recovery had prior to Greymoor's incarnation.

As for the "sting of flame" and the health recovery, there was a lot of ways I found to mitigate that even in the old system (and new system) and kept at the relevant stages for Supernatural Recovery until I really didn't need it. After that, I'd kept vampires going so I could continue to give out free bites to folks who were looking for them, but only after checking to see if friends or guildies didn't need any.

Really, the only thing that impacts me now is the reduction to health regeneration and the ramping costs of non-vampire abilities. I think that could've been solved by investment into the line (slotting a number of abilities to nullify effects on a bar for example). This coming from a player with a near full roster dedicated to every class understanding the nuance between them and how capable they are with vampirism as magicka based characters.

Vevvev

Devs decided to copy the dark side corruption thing from Star Wars instead of sticking to what vampires are in TES. Sure building into vampire makes stages 3 and 4 insanely powerful, but for the average person stage 4 is painful in more ways than one. The least they could have done is gone ahead with the vampire appearance changes but too many people complained and so we got stuck with the old looks in an absolutely backwards system.

Woodenplank

While the current incarnation is problematic - particularly the very punishing cost increases for non-vampire skills, I still prefer it to the old.

As many have mentioned, Vampirism used to be a an auto-include in pretty much any build. Even tanks - who stood to take the most punishment from the increased fire damage taken - would go vampirism for the Undeath passive and the recovery bonuses. The pros outweighed the cons so much, there was hardly ever a reason not to go vamp.

Nowadays most people won't want it - and that's okay. It's supposed to be a gift and a curse.
And nowadays you can actually center builds around it, at least for PVP. Blood Scion, Mesmerize, and Mist Form are all very useful PVP skills, and going to stage 3 for the Undeath passive synergizes very well with popular PVP sets like Pariah or Titanborn.

That's not to say they can't keep improving it, but it certainly has more ooomph and flavour to it than the boring old auto-included vampirism.

Sephyr

Vevvev wrote: »

Devs decided to copy the dark side corruption thing from Star Wars instead of sticking to what vampires are in TES. Sure building into vampire makes stages 3 and 4 insanely powerful, but for the average person stage 4 is painful in more ways than one. The least they could have done is gone ahead with the vampire appearance changes but too many people complained and so we got stuck with the old looks in an absolutely backwards system.

What I'd give for some fangs. Then the Drain ability would look a tad menacing maybe. But only look.

Vevvev

Sephyr wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Devs decided to copy the dark side corruption thing from Star Wars instead of sticking to what vampires are in TES. Sure building into vampire makes stages 3 and 4 insanely powerful, but for the average person stage 4 is painful in more ways than one. The least they could have done is gone ahead with the vampire appearance changes but too many people complained and so we got stuck with the old looks in an absolutely backwards system.

What I'd give for some fangs. Then the Drain ability would look a tad menacing maybe. But only look.

Yeah.... at least they kept with the Skyrim vampiric drain color scheme on the vampire abilities?!?

I wish the vampire look was actually a full on change instead of a skin like it is now. Why there are no fangs

Eccentric_Vampire

Vampirism in this game is awful in so many ways. I wish I joined before the nerf, the bat swarm ability sounds cooler than the swarming scion ability we currently have

Ratzkifal

The vampire rebalance has been a complete mess.

Previously established lore was clear that in the Elder Scrolls universe, vampires gain monsterous abilities the longer they go without feeding, but in turn become more and more feral until they eventually completely lose themselves to the bloodlust.

Then the devs said they got vampires "backwards" and flipped the whole system on its head, stating that they are wishing to give more power to the players the more they feed. This was presumably done to encourage feeding, since in the old system nobody would ever feed as your vampire stage would naturally progress towards its strongest state over time.
However because they also wanted vampirism to be a committment they introduced penalties to being a vampire to discourage people from just passively being a vampire without actually committing to it (meaning: adjusting/designing your build around it). But this had the opposite effect of what it was meant to achieve as most players now view the last stage of vampirism as the weakest stage due to the penalties, causing them to again not feed anymore.
To their credit ZOS did eventually give us lore on why exactly player vampirism is not in line with vampirism from the other games and NPC vampirism anymore. Basically, Lamae, the one whose bloodline we are part of, used alchemy to alter her bloodline to spite Molag Bal.
Personally I dislike this change, because it disrupted the continuity of vampirsm and because of the playstyle it enforces that makes all vampire builds feel pretty much the same regardless of class. I also dislike that vampirism in Lamae's bloodline has no moral dilemma anymore. Usually vampirism asks you to do unspeakable things for power or take the morally good path of refusing to feed which means you have to withdraw from society completely due to the uncontrollable bloodlust.

I want vampires to have a reason to be feeding. I want the penalty to skill costs removed as it punishes you for being something else other than vampire, when the vampire skills can't even stand on their own like the werewolf skills can. I would prefer if feeding lowered your vampire stage again, simply because that is in line with how it has been handled for years now.

Sephyr

Vevvev wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Devs decided to copy the dark side corruption thing from Star Wars instead of sticking to what vampires are in TES. Sure building into vampire makes stages 3 and 4 insanely powerful, but for the average person stage 4 is painful in more ways than one. The least they could have done is gone ahead with the vampire appearance changes but too many people complained and so we got stuck with the old looks in an absolutely backwards system.

What I'd give for some fangs. Then the Drain ability would look a tad menacing maybe. But only look.

Yeah.... at least they kept with the Skyrim vampiric drain color scheme on the vampire abilities?!?

I wish the vampire look was actually a full on change instead of a skin like it is now. Why there are no fangs

Just a tad! I still can't get over the gatorade mixture yet, which is probably why I'm mostly on my MagBlade lately.

And saaaaame. I think there's a lot they could have done given that there are six parts that we can adjust including the skin through our collectables and I'm sure one of those could allow fangs, facial hair, as well as different skin levels. So far I've just been keeping the Spiderkith eyes on since those seem to make the skin at least pop a little.

Vevvev

Sephyr wrote: »

Just a tad! I still can't get over the gatorade mixture yet, which is probably why I'm mostly on my MagBlade lately.

And saaaaame. I think there's a lot they could have done given that there are six parts that we can adjust including the skin through our collectables and I'm sure one of those could allow fangs, facial hair, as well as different skin levels. So far I've just been keeping the Spiderkith eyes on since those seem to make the skin at least pop a little.

The Vampiric Drain morphs ruined the color scheme, but the base skill does keep in line with the colors at least.

geonsocal

i don't believe in "stages" of being a vampire...just a different view from the devs...so, i stay stage 4 all the time, i spend most of my time in cyrodiil, it's a challenge...

i really wish they had mirrored the vampire skill line just like the werewolf skill line, transform in to a scion and you're limited to those vampire skills...now that we have the scion code - don't see why not???

the no health regen (watch out for any decrease in elevation while riding between keeps) still bugs me, the plus like 1,000% cost to using my regular skills (as if your vamp choices were soooo awesome, not) is like a slap in the face…

finally let my mag dk leave the mages guild in bankorai, as he went, so would my stamblade – to cure or not to cure…

the only vamp skills i really use are scion on my stamblade and mist/scion/drain on my mag dk...

trying out the pale order ring on my vamp stamblade...tying my best to make shimmering frenzy work:

Go into a blood frenzy, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 660.
While toggled on, the Health cost of this ability increased by 20% and Weapon and Spell Damage bonus increases by 10% every second. You also cannot be healed by anyone other than yourself.
The Weapon and Spell Damage bonus also increase the longer it remains toggled on.

i mean it sounds like some sexy extra damage, particularly for rally, shadowy disguise than using lethal arrow, executioner or when in scion form - can't tell you how many times i've died inside of a delve/dungeon trying to get my timing down right...

will try to work in arterial burst on my mag dk...

hello dev team - cleanup on aisle: vampire skill line

I kid because I care