More Realistic Trial DPS Dummy (w. Details)

Rudrani

Dear ZoS Mages,

DPS test against the target dummies is a very ubiquitous measure of how "good" a player is at the "Damage Dealer" role. (So much so that Damage Dealers are often refered to as "DPS", lol). This, frankly, is irritating, because the target dummy is so unlike actual gameplay.

You made a big step in the right direction by going from the static skelletons and so on to the "Iron Atro Trial Dummy" - but if you just extend this evolution a little bit more it will be perfect, and the dps score on such a dummy would be a much, much more accurate indicator of how well a person knows how to play the Damage Dealer role.

Here is my request for additional features on the Trial Dummy template:

The dummy needs to attack the player

Not always, because we are simulating a taunted trial boss, but sometimes - with special attacks. So, every N seconds the dummy has a chance of doing:

a) a kitable mechanic (like Rakhat's meteors, or Olms' Storm of the Heavens)
b) an AoE around it, making it unpleasant to stand still or stay within melee range for several seconds (like Ra-Kotu's spin but less lethal)
c) summons an add (probs shoud have 300k hp) who stays within 1 or 2 meters of the dummy, but attacks the player with light attacks (probs about 1k damage per attack) continuously untill dead.

Thanks. Can't wait to see this in the next update!

Love,
Rudrani

Amottica

I would suggest that the dummies serve the valid purpose of allowing players to test out their builds and practice them to they become a habit so when they are in a real fight they can pay attention to what is happening around them vs figuring out what skill they need to use then.

Further, I would suggest a trial dummy cannot truly mimic all the mechanics possible in trial fights as I would hope Zenimax comes up with new mechanics over time. A good player does not need this and an unskilled or inexperienced player would develop a false sense of security from playing around in the artificial environment.

Keeping it simple is a good course to follow.

Rudrani

Amottica wrote: »

I would suggest that the dummies serve the valid purpose of allowing players to test out their builds and practice them to they become a habit so when they are in a real fight they can pay attention to what is happening around them vs figuring out what skill they need to use then.

3 mil skelletons still exist. And if ZoS gave us this dummy I am requesting, it would not replace the Iron Atro, etc. So if for whatever reason you feel that you can practice better on these, you can continue to do it.

In fact, most very good players have a few different target dummies they use for different types of practice. Probably the best course for drilling muscle memory would be to sit with one of those old school 56 mil Dwemer Centurion dummies for an hour at a time.

However, since real fights include danger to the player, a practice environment that poses no danger to the player is not really the best way to practice after you have your muscle memory down pat.

However, dummies are used for more than practice, most endgame guilds use them to rank the skill of their members. For this, a dummy that poses no threat to the player is completely inferior to the one I am proposing.

(Not to mention that the dummy I am proposing would not be mind-numbingly boring to practice on)

Amottica wrote: »

IFurther, I would suggest a trial dummy cannot truly mimic all the mechanics possible in trial fights as I would hope Zenimax comes up with new mechanics over time.

We don't need a dummy to mimic specific mechanics, but it has to do something that can damage the player. Off the top of my head I came up with three categories of mechanics that cause damage to "dps" players in trials.

1) The kite-type
2) The AoE type which forces us to move out of melee distance
3) Adds

Amottica

Hey, I agree we are all entitled to our opinions and it is great for players to make suggestions as I expect Zenimax has found some great gems that players posted in the forums. I have just pointed out some significant points that would reduce the chances players would be interested in such a dummy. That is all.

In the end, I expect it is Zenimax that makes the final decision on if something is both good for the game and worthy of them investing the effort into.

Rudrani

I agree. I think the point you made is that some people use the dummies to work their skill-rotations into their muscle memory so it becomes second nature. For this, the more complex dummy i am proposing might be too distracting. I agree. I suggest the existing Centurion dummies would be the best for this purpose.

What I am clarifying is that we rank DPS by their scores on dummies, and also evaluate ourselves and the efficacy of our builds largely or to some significant extent against dummies. For THIS, the dummy I am proposing would be much much more useful. Since this dummy is significantly more like actual gameplay (which includes movement, survivability, and a very significant need for "cleave" / "AoE Damage") practice on it would help us develop more useful builds and would more accurately evaluate a player's skill.

Rudrani

PS - I leave it to the marketers at ZoS to see how lucrative it could be to offer crown-store trial specific dummies that mimic the mechanics of trial bosses. This is a whole other topic.

zvavi

Or. Or. Create role specific tutorials that have something similar anyway.

Rudrani

zvavi wrote: »

Or. Or. Create role specific tutorials that have something similar anyway.

A tutorial you can revisit anytime, aka a practice instance!

winner_wd

Vote for the dummy with mech, if it can kill people, that will be more funny. Lol

WrathOfInnos

I see what you’re going for, but there are a few problems with it. For one thing, you should never incorporate a random chance for mechanics into a standard test, it must be repeatable. Depending on the level of incoming damage, it may end up forcing players into a build that less accurately simulates trials. Generally DD’s shouldn’t need a self heal, and using bar space could completely change their rotation. It could also exaggerate class differences: magplar may not need to slot any heal with sweeps, or magblade with swallow, while in trials this is negligible.

As for testing DPS in a live environment for guild ranks, why not just use a solo boss fight? There are plenty to choose from in vMA and vVH, all which require some degree of movement and survivability while dealing damage. Seems like any guild leader could just pick their favorite fight and set a number that DPS have to meet. The point of a target dummy is that it’s consistent and will give more repeatable results than any trial or arena fight.

Ngl, it does sound fun to test DPS while dancing around various AoE’s (basically every fight in vRG ). I could see this working well as a new minigame or tutorial as Zvavi suggested, maybe even to qualify for dungeon finder (we have required crafting certifications, but nothing for DPS/healer/tank).

Another way to implement this would be to allow more trap furnishings, allowing anyone to set up their own test with incoming damage. We have some harmful plants, and Elinhir Arena with blades, fire and lightning, but we could use more options.

Rudrani

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

For one thing, you should never incorporate a random chance for mechanics into a standard test, it must be repeatable.

People can decide on how they want to rank their guild. If they want [what would become] "old school" ranking, they can ask for Iron Atro scores (as some do now or 3M scores).

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Depending on the level of incoming damage, it may end up forcing players into a build that less accurately simulates trials. Generally DD’s shouldn’t need a self heal, and using bar space could completely change their rotation. It could also exaggerate class differences: magplar may not need to slot any heal with sweeps, or magblade with swallow, while in trials this is negligible.

You don't need a self-heal. You could.

1) Kite the kite
2) Get out of the AoE
3) Kill the add

In other words, exactly like a real trial, you have choices about how to handle a situation - and you have to watch your target for the animation queues about what type of danger is coming your way.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

As for testing DPS in a live environment for guild ranks, why not just use a solo boss fight? There are plenty to choose from in vMA and vVH, all which require some degree of movement and survivability while dealing damage. Seems like any guild leader could just pick their favorite fight and set a number that DPS have to meet. The point of a target dummy is that it’s consistent and will give more repeatable results than any trial or arena fight.

The Iron Atro is a step in the right direction - because it simulates having support roles doing their thing. I don't want to take that away (I want to take it a step further and make the dummy be a better simulation of what it supposedly emulates). Going to a world boss, etc. will lose all of this. Testing someone on a world boss or solo arena tests their solo build.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Another way to implement this would be to allow more trap furnishings, allowing anyone to set up their own test with incoming damage. We have some harmful plants, and Elinhir Arena with blades, fire and lightning, but we could use more options.

Another way is not to make the dummy a furniture item. Make the furniture a doorway or portal that takes you into an optimized, tiny solo instance for the practice.

Amottica

Rudrani wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Depending on the level of incoming damage, it may end up forcing players into a build that less accurately simulates trials. Generally DD’s shouldn’t need a self heal, and using bar space could completely change their rotation. It could also exaggerate class differences: magplar may not need to slot any heal with sweeps, or magblade with swallow, while in trials this is negligible.

You don't need a self-heal. You could.

1) Kite the kite
2) Get out of the AoE
3) Kill the add

In other words, exactly like a real trial, you have choices about how to handle a situation - and you have to watch your target for the animation queues about what type of danger is coming your way.

If it is to be exactly like a real trial then you do need heals as @WrathOfInnos suggested. That is if the damage suggested is to be meaningful. If the damage is not meaningful then it serves no purpose.

Rudrani

@Amottica agree!

I suggest the damage be fairly minimal, just so that you can't ingnore it.

1) Kite mechanic should mainly stun (lowering dps)

2) AoE should do something like 4k damage per second and last about 12 seconds. (just so you can't survive if you stay in it)

3) Add is only doing light attacks for 1.5k per second. With 300k health, you should be able to kill it in 5-10 seconds from cleave. So even a really poor cleave build should survive an add without a heal.

Iron atro throws templar shards, so might as well through a healing spring too, with about the same frequency tho. It's not really needed, imo.

Rudrani

Maybe model the dummy after one of these new Behemoths or Havocrel. They are visually cool.

Sephyr

I kind of would like a trial dummy that could emulate certain bosses from various raids that also requires a full raid group to fight. That way the mechanics can be there and it utilizes everything that a group provides. Thus getting rotations and placements right in game before they go after the real thing. Rehearsals that are actual rehearsals instead of "Okay you stand here, imagine all this AoE, etc".

Caveats I see to this though is that probably not everyone would like that sort of thing. Or, on the other hand some houses might not have the area space to reflect the environment. I suppose furnishings could be the workaround.

Rudrani

@Sephyr it would probably work better if what the "furniture" is the portal into the instance where the dummy boss is. Allowing multiple people in is also interesting. But now its getting to the point of - "Why not just go to the trial"?

Syrpynt

"Elder TestDummies Online"

Instead of them killing or damaging players, I propose a 3 second stun. You dps will suffer, but the stun is to replicate you dying from a 1 shot mechanic.

You can't dps when you're dead. And stun is a great effect that will just make you ashamed.

WrathOfInnos

Rudrani wrote: »

it would probably work better if what the "furniture" is the portal into the instance where the dummy boss is. Allowing multiple people in is also interesting. But now its getting to the point of - "Why not just go to the trial"?

Yeah that sounds like a fun activity, and a good learning tool. My only hesitation would be restricting it to a housing furnishing. Anyone should be able to practice/test if they want to, maybe with an alternate entrance through the Fighter’s Guild or Undaunted.

BXR_Lonestar

I hate those who live and die by the dummy parse to IMO. Your parse number has largely become an elitist measure of your "skill" as a DPS player, when IMO, it is anything but. I've seen players who parse 70K+ which would put them in the top 10%ish of damage dealers in the game, and yet, they can't do mechanics in a real fight. Or they're constantly dead because they have no battlefield awareness. And yet, that 70k+ DPS player would get into an upper echelon trial progression group over myself, a player who only hits around 50K DPS on my best DPS (I main healer/tank anyways), but I can negotiate mechanics well and, since I'm my group's trial leader, I have excellent battlefield awareness.

With that said, dummies have their uses. I like to make apples-to-apples comparisons of gear and abilities to see which ones are going to give me the best DPS output every time a new patch comes out and they make tweaks to my DPS characters of choice. So they do have their uses when you are using them as your own testing ground for builds.

But unfortunately, the parse dummy has also become a pseudo test for endgame "skill" and I absolutely hate it for that reason. I'd rather play the game than spend hours and hours on a dummy that doesn't even come close to simulating real game combat.

Everest_Lionheart

A more “realistic” trial dummy would come with desynchs, bar swap lag and synergies that won’t actually synergize. None of wants any of that!

The dummy is there to practice rotation and that’s it. Different trials and different roles within those trials have different rotations all together. Plus there are mechs to deal with. Chances are if you can hit 80k plus on the dummy than you are likely willing to put in enough effort to learn the most punishing mechs in the game or at least improve with enough reps to overcome them.

Hop into some of those hard endgame trials like vAS2, vSS HM and vCR3 and see how quickly the mechs add up. A lot of those mechs are added so we can’t do 90k dps and burn through the trial with ease. But what is endgame prog groups do know are things like when to focus adds, where to place dots, when to use spamable’s, when to shield and generally how to avoid most deaths all together.

It’s as we say in our GH prog team. A complete isn’t that far removed from an actual GH run. Literally one lapse by a single player can set off a chain of unfortunate deaths but through prudent play you can limit those deaths. The key to GH is avoiding that first one. My godslayer group always gets undone at execute of either the ice or fire boss by one person the mechs are that unforgiving for a single mental lapse.

There is no mech you can add to the dummy that will prepare you for kite + cone on vAS2, nor is there a mech that can prepare you for getting ice and fire during vCR3 execute. what the dummy will do however is make your rotation second nature so that you can do what is necessary to play those mechs and barely miss a beat.

Jaimeh

I would like that, not so much as a dps test, because like a comment said above, it wouldn't be a controlled environment, but generally as a mini game to sharpen reflexes, and increase environmental awareness, etc.

Rudrani

Syrpynt wrote: »

"Elder TestDummies Online"

Instead of them killing or damaging players, I propose a 3 second stun. You dps will suffer, but the stun is to replicate you dying from a 1 shot mechanic.

You can't dps when you're dead. And stun is a great effect that will just make you ashamed.

that's what I proposed with the kite mechanic

RogueShark

I sort of feel like solo arenas already help accomplish this. Maelstrom perhaps less so as outdated as it is, but there's still things like managing your DPS in ice arena since the icebreaks are percentage based. If you're at the point you can no death/speed/no sigil faceroll these then you're at the point where your awareness/etc should already be sharp and a dummy spewing CC/aoe isn't going to do better than vate or maelstrom.

SeaUnicorn

Awesome idea!

I think to make it more realistic and solve the issue with some classes not being able to self-heal it can spit healing and harmful circles at your location, so you don't have to self heal. Which is very close to what happens in trials - you stand in HOTs and out of enemy AOEs.

Another option - harmful circle just places un-purgeable maim on you if you stand in it for longer than x-seconds. That way your total damage output is worse and you are encouraged to step out.

SeaUnicorn

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

A more “realistic” trial dummy would come with desynchs, bar swap lag and synergies that won’t actually synergize.

Well if you parse on Friday night in a house full of furniture on live it already comes with desyncs and barswap lag And if you stack up bunch of light sources on top of dummy you can "enjoy" FPS drops.

Everest_Lionheart

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

A more “realistic” trial dummy would come with desynchs, bar swap lag and synergies that won’t actually synergize.

Well if you parse on Friday night in a house full of furniture on live it already comes with desyncs and barswap lag And if you stack up bunch of light sources on top of dummy you can "enjoy" FPS drops.

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

A more “realistic” trial dummy would come with desynchs, bar swap lag and synergies that won’t actually synergize.

Well if you parse on Friday night in a house full of furniture on live it already comes with desyncs and barswap lag And if you stack up bunch of light sources on top of dummy you can "enjoy" FPS drops.

Even better, stack 20 skeletons on top of one another, bring your entire raid team and all drop a meteor at the same time. Enjoy the next 20 minutes off the game when you get kicked for spamming 🤣

Shantu

IMO, dummies are for working on your rotation and committing it to muscle memory. If I want something that fights back, I run a trial.

Ishtarknows

Jaimeh wrote: »

I would like that, not so much as a dps test, because like a comment said above, it wouldn't be a controlled environment, but generally as a mini game to sharpen reflexes, and increase environmental awareness, etc.

People used to use VMA for that, but since weapons dropped on normal far fewer newer players seems to run vet. I know I learned so much about avoiding aoes, when to use certain skills, when not to and dealing damage under pressure when I was progging vma.

SimonThesis

Pvp players should have the option to have player target dummies with either average player stats or adjustable health and resistances, maybe 30k health 20k armor. Also have pvp target dummy versions that would give the battle spirit buff and common group buffs like one would get from group members. Maybe even have different faction colors or make them so you can customize their outfits

Zos you're missing out on an opportunity to make money off of Pvpers by not having Pvp target dummies!

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

karekiz

I just wish Major Force was similar to more generalized raid environments rather than a flat 100% uptime.

Narvuntien

I'd like a real boss dummy to test tanking.

What about a PVP dummy that applies battle spirit, reduces damage and gains crit resists.