Brief rant about some slaver comments I encountered in the zone chat

Adventurer

So I encountered some unsolicited slaver commetns in the zone chat two days ago.

Now, I'm totally fine if people do what they want in guilds or in private, but I personally I think, if someone posts something normal or innocuous like "I think Argonians are cool" or similar stuff in an empty zone chat late at night, and then two people start having slaver comments like they're "the slave race" and talk about enslaving the Argonians and Khajiit, then be prepared to take back witty banter. Don't do slaver comments or RP in the zone chat if you can't take being talked back or hearing someone disagree with you without resorting to personal attacks on the person when they don't put up with slaver comments.

What happened to me was that after I responded to those two, and said I kill slavers, and it's illegal right now as well (we were in the Stonefalls zone, Pact Territory), one of them tried to justify their comments with TES lore (well, sure, slavers exist, but be prepared that people will make comments about slavers then, if you want to say stuff about enslaving the whole beast race etc., not to mention in ESO in Pact it's outlawed, so for that zone it's irrelevant, not to mention people can still go kill slavers anyway.). And then, when they saw I wouldn't put up with any of their BS, and continued my anti-slavery comments when they said racist stuff or continued my rebuttals, they instead stopped and later started calling me "too serious", that "I can't handle it (the topic, lol)", so it seemed like they're the ones who couldn't handle any disagreement, esp. as they were the ones who promptly stopped having slaver comments and started throwing personal attacks and slavery apologetic comments after I had few moer "I kill all slavers, so I can't talk to him unless you rez him (when telling me to talk one)" and similar comments from me) and in general just trying to attack me personally.

And one of them said that I can't distiguish game from reality. I mean, c'mon. First you try to act like you're RPing, and then when you hear someone RPing back and can't take it, and don't like it that I told you I'll kill you because you told me "I will enslave u", and asked you to apologize for saying that (I didn't care if it was meant in person or as RP, I was curious if they'd apologize for saying something like that or not, and planned on not reporting them if they didn't, as that would prove they were RPing to some degree and not just beind *** or hiding real racism behind some RP), you eventually pull the "oh you can't distinguish game from reality"? Really? Pick one. Either we're RPing or we're not, but saying "I can't distinguish game from reality" just because I asked one of them to apologize for theiir comments doesn't make sense at all. (they stopped the slaver comments after this, btw, and switched to the aforementioned personal attacks instead).

Me, personally, I don't mind when people make slaver RP or comment as long as they're prepared for people to banter back at them, esp. if it's unsolicited slaver comments like in this case. And the only thing I was offended was that they later started using ad hominem (personal) attacks when they realized I wouldn't take their comments just like that and pulling the "you can't distinguish between games and reality" crap because I asked for an apology (after the "I will enslave u" comment and was curious if they would or not), instead of stopping or continuing, but being fine with whatever was being told back.

**As a bottom line, I don't think anyone should make slaver comments in the zone chat unless they can take what's thrown back at them (within the TOS of course), or they stop when they feel uncomfortable, but don't resort to then personally attacking the person instead to make it seem like their comments were just "jokes" or fine.**

What are your opinions? Have you ever encountered slaver comments that seemed more like real racism hidden behind it? Whatever the case, were the people fine when you slammed their "fantasy racism" back with your own RP or comments about how wrong it is, or did they also start being uncomfortable about it and instead try to attack you personally when it didn't work?

PS: I didn't come into the zone chat with the intention of baiting or getting any people make slaver comments, I just genuinely wanted to go and chat about Argonians or have a fun chat with someone who'd respond.

Jazraena

Other

FWIW, Slavery in Pact Territory is not just straight-up outlawed. Yes, there's a pamphlet claiming so, a dev comment being more nuanced about it, a book about the agreement between Almalexia and the argonians only freeing the lizards, and you can come across a slave in the middle of Mournhold, Indoril territory. And the Dres largely do as they please minus Argonians anyway, despite being part of the Pact - including in Stonefalls. One quest deals with a slave revolt, and do take a look at Kragenmoor.

As for the discussion at hand... [snip] Maybe they've been mixing IRL inclinations in, maybe not, but you read as if you're a bit too close to things as well. It's not worth the anger.

[Edited for Baiting]

Freeflyer212

Well don't feel bad. Some people can dish it but can't take it. I once got banned on a subreddit because one guy said "I hate all humans for they way treat animals and want them to die". My response was "Well then doesn't that mean you hate yourself and want to die?"

After that they banned me. Some people just can't take whats thrown back at them.

spartaxoxo

Other

If they are saying something reportable, then report them. If they aren't, don't engage in some weird half-RP and half-serious passive aggressive weirdness where you try to roleplay an apology.

Just say "not cool, keep your RP out of zone" and move it along.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Supertonicbaker

Other

I tend to disregard the zone chat unless I ask for help with a dungeon or something. And I only pay attention to anyone who replies directly to me. Everyone else I just zone out.

Tommy_The_Gun

I don't engage with such people in the zone chat, even if they start responding to my own comments

Well, I think I am gonna make a little rant of my own here...

Before I start, I just want to ask you all, what do you think is the point of starting those types of conversations about slavery on in-game zone chat ? What do you think player who goes to Shadowfen / Murkmire / Blackwood and starts "RP" slavery discussion wishes to accomplish ? They want other people to say "yes, you are right", not answer at all or - they want to start a quarrel ?

Because imho it is the latter. People do it mostly to troll or bait others into a "chat fight". There is almost no other reason. Not at least any logical one I can think off.

That is why I mostly do not answer to those types of in-game zone chat discussions. Because last thing you want to do is to feed the troll in a zone chat.

If someone uses RP chat channel for it or indicates somehow that they do RP (example (RP) in front of every message) then it fine. But even then, lets assume it is RP. Lets assume we are teleported into Tamriel to an area where Argonians or Khajiits live and we start saying stuff like "they are not people, they are property". It is asking for trouble. A stone throwed at you is the least severe thing you can expect.

There are also other things related to this kind of discussions. People's personalities and mood correspond to how they behave in-game. So very often how they treat something "virtual" may reflect how they would treat something in RL... if there was no consequences. And I think it is the key word. Consequences. In a virtual world you can not suffer any consequences for saying something mean towards a virtual race that does not exist in RL. And it is true. But in RL - there are consequences. Not so much in virtual world. However, even if something is virtual, other players that are playing the game - are real. If you say something mean about their in-game avatars - you are automatically mean to other real people playing the game. So saying that some people "can't handle it" is true. They can not take it if someone's goal is to make them upset and most likely take some kind of twisted joy by doing it.

TLDR: My advice is to ignore the troll...

Cirantille

I've met racism RP in the chat, they were professional and could take any banter back with grace

This whole Argonian slavery thing is so overused and make me just eye roll just like Sheogorath-cheese jokes
People took it to not even funny anymore point
Also my dark elves are against slavery

bmnoble

Other

I just ignore zone chat's nonsense and carry on with what I am doing, I only interact with zone chat if someone asks for a price check or a question that I can answer if they need help with something.

All you had to do was ignore them or make one comment and move on, keeping the conversation going, is the worst thing you can do it causes all the trolls to come out of the woodwork, now they are living rent free in your head.

ShawnLaRock

Slaver comments made by IRL people regarding in-game relations are gross and should be viewed as such.

I am an ESO aficionado - yet, the 2 “n-word” Dunmer terms are similarly inappropriate. Yeah, lore… but IRL people use them in lieu of actual sentiments.

Even PC vs Console attempts at comparison should be viewed the same way: as unnecessary hate speech.

It’s 2021.

S.

Auztinito

Other

RP has limits that people push to justify their own behavior or to be an absolute crappy person to people.

This reminds me of a situation where folks were RP’ing as a gang of raiders against other players in FO76. So, in game chat they act out things like kill and harass other players like raiders would but there was one catch. They were RP’ing as gang of raiders that were homophobic. So, they went above and beyond to target another player because they were gay. There’s is a blatant and obvious limit to RP. Some folks just like to use it as a means to act out their own crappy beliefs about the world (in-game or reality). I’ve would have told them off and reported them. If they can be bigoted to fictional race in a game under the guise RP. You can definitely be anti-slaver in RP.

Sylvermynx

Other

I turned off zone chat three years ago, the minute I first started playing this game. This was after playing WoW and RIFT. Zone chat sucks, and I'm not ever going to leave it enabled.

If you have issues with zone chat, you should report the perp.

FlamingMeat

I've met racism RP in the chat, they were professional and could take any banter back with grace

People who take on really extreme RP sides generally can hold their own with banter but are not interested in 4th-wall breaking arguments against the morals that they're RPing. If they aren't fun to engage with then no-one will engage with them and the problem will sort itself out.

Psiion

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Ackwalan

Words only have as much affect as you give them, that goes double in a game.

Ratzkifal

I've met racism RP in the chat, they were professional and could take any banter back with grace

FlamingMeat wrote: »

People who take on really extreme RP sides generally can hold their own with banter but are not interested in 4th-wall breaking arguments against the morals that they're RPing. If they aren't fun to engage with then no-one will engage with them and the problem will sort itself out.

This. Most people I've seen who say these things can take banter in stride.
And yes, most people definitely only do it (in zone chat) to troll, but also don't want to be lectured on the IRL morality of their RP-take, because it should be obvious it is meant to be a joke. Some people don't find these jokes funny, but that's to be expected - everyone has their own tastes.
I see these arguments on whether Argonians are property or not like the discussion about pineapple on pizza or discord light theme - nonsense debates that everyone has a strong opinion on without anyone actually being invested in it all that much.

With fictional slavery, these sort of discussions do tend to go south quickly though because someone, usually also the most willing to take the bait, always confuses fiction with reality and assumes someone could only roleplay as a slaver if they like slavery IRL too, which is just silly but sadly also not a fun discussion anymore. Being a member of the Dark Brotherhood doesn't make me a murderer IRL either nor does roleplaying a cook make me any better at cooking.

SidraWillowsky

No, they've also couldn't handle being talked back to

Er, I accidentally voted bc of new keyboard on mobile phone.

Anyway, I tend to call it out in zone chat like I would IRL. I can't think of many valid reasons why someone would even RP as a hard core slaver unless they wanted to do some Super Redemption Arc, and even then, I don't think that racist rhetoric is necessary to accomplish that.

IDK how Stonefalls is so consistently awful. I like to tell people being racist/gross in general that whatever zone chat I'm in is a family-friendly/religious zone chat and to take their blasphemy to Stonefalls, but...

newtinmpls

Other

Cirantille wrote: »

This whole Argonian slavery thing is so overused and make me just eye roll just like Sheogorath-cheese jokes
People took it to not even funny anymore point
Also my dark elves are against slavery

Interesting...you remind me of the backstory of one of my Dunmer; she had a personal Khajhiit "house" slave most of her life, started thinking of him as a "friend", without really understanding what his slavery meant TO HIM. Finally one day she is cheerfully going to tell him that a certain group of laborers have been killed and so the newer/younger/healthier slaves will be doing better work (something like that) and looks at him, really sees him, really realizes that she was about to expect him to be happy that most of the rest of his family had been murdered.

That night she worked a magic (based loosely on the idea that in Morrowind TES III the 'key' to unlock any slave bracer works for all the slave bracers in that area) to free the slaves .. all of them ... at midnight. She walked away. The entire plantation burned to the ground.

She remains in love with him, never told him, never could. I deliberately haven't decided if he lived.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Other

I wouldn't call that or the people who does that RP/roleplaying. Roleplayers don't randomly start make "in character" comments in zone chats, because that's not a place for it. Those are just trolls, people who want to quarrel, or people who thinks things like hippity hoppity argonians are property comments are funny.

DreamyLu

Other

The only rule is: Don't feed! As long as someone respond (unfortunately, people can't resist most of the time), they will keep going.

Aside of this rule, if it is reportable, report.

AgaTheGreat

Other

I think the hot topics in American culture shouldn't be woven into the game.

six2fall

It's part of the game lore so if people want to rp as numbnut slavers not really anything to do about it. Just go enjoy game in another zone

SammyKhajit

No, they've also couldn't handle being talked back to

Players who “role play” slavers or make jokes about it are despicable. End of the story.

Supreme_Atromancer

The problem is when you have some medium tackle heavier, adult issues and silly people get their hands on it.

The issue here is not about slavery in the game, or anything. Its people being immature about it. If you're looking for fun conversation, that's all fine and good but be aware that there are a LOT of idiots out there, and you get what you pay for, my friend.

Conversely, if you're just arguing to one-up or outwit people, you're essentially playing a losing game because you need people to care, and no one is going to. You choose who you're going to engage with.

Imagine someone getting on a school bus, going right to the back of the bus and trying to argue or one-up the grommits there. Which one would be the bigger idiot?

Zodiarkslayer

Other

Zone Chat is sooo often just an assembly of unsolicited advice, more often wrong than not, advertising and scamming, or redundant information like "dolmen up" or this WB is up.
I have disabled Zone Chat long ago. And never looked back, since my pugging days are over.
Chat function is only useful for guild participation and /group use.

Honestly, ESO is part of the internet. So there will be all sorts of bigots, racists, criminals and a whole lot of other forms of IDIOTS.
People use the anonymity to publicly live out their dark sides.
I think we are way beyond the point of return and shouldn't expect anything else.

TwinLamps

I don't engage with such people in the zone chat, even if they start responding to my own comments

I am not qualified to deal with ppl that have mental issues such as these so I avoid ingame "slavers" as much as I can.
All I can do is wish them to get well soon, I guess.

NylAR

Reading this stuff and seeing devs and mods being Totally okay with this one has to wonder what kind of hell would break lose if anyone but mentioned enslaving redguards.

Seriously though. I bet the world would start burning, yet portraiting slavery on any other race is considered fine to discuss.

I'm well aware of lore regarding argonian and khajiit slaves in Morrowind btw. I just wanna know how enslaving redguards would affect the views of community. Would it still be fine cause it's ingame? Somehow I seriously doubt it.

Why is slavery as a topic on any other race so hot and totally fine then? Get where I'm going??

To make it 100% clear someone doesn't understand this the wrong way. I'm against any kind of racism or slavery. I'm just comparing, because it seems wrong [snip] on so many levels to me regardless of what race is involved.

[edited for language]

Adventurer

Other

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

. But in RL - there are consequences. Not so much in virtual world. However, even if something is virtual, other players that are playing the game - are real. If you say something mean about their in-game avatars - you are automatically mean to other real people playing the game.

Indeed.
Yeah. To be clear (and this is meant in general to everyone), let me just reiterate I wasn't riled up by their slavery comments, I could respond whole day to them and not be infuriated by it or anything, what riled me up is that they started attacking me personally instead of just keeping it in-character. It was doubly ironic, as they couldn't handle what I threw at them, so they stopped the slavery comments and instead started attacking me personally. That's where the fun stops and is what I made the thread about, not discussion about whether slavery is 100% banned in Pact or not, like the first poster who replied mistakenly assumed (or maybe they did it on purpose and chose to just focus on that, esp. given how they had some baiting comments there that ZOS deleted and I didn't see them.).

FlamingMeat wrote: »

People who take on really extreme RP sides generally can hold their own with banter but are not interested in 4th-wall breaking arguments against the morals that they're RPing. If they aren't fun to engage with then no-one will engage with them and the problem will sort itself out.

Just to make it clear, I wasn't making any 4th wall arguments, I was keeping it in-game. Them stopping was precisely because they couldn't handle anyone responding and disagreeing with them.

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Er, I accidentally voted bc of new keyboard on mobile phone.

Anyway, I tend to call it out in zone chat like I would IRL. I can't think of many valid reasons why someone would even RP as a hard core slaver unless they wanted to do some Super Redemption Arc, and even then, I don't think that racist rhetoric is necessary to accomplish that.

IDK how Stonefalls is so consistently awful. I like to tell people being racist/gross in general that whatever zone chat I'm in is a family-friendly/religious zone chat and to take their blasphemy to Stonefalls, but...

On PC-EU the Stonefalls chat is usually nice, as are all the other zones I've visited. I haven't seen there any slavery comments much, so I think it's probably because I was playing late at night for once, after 1am, so maybe it was American players. Maybe not, but it certainly wasn't how the usual crowd normally there is during the day. I did hear that the American servers are worse than ours though in the chat.

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