You will hate me, but for balance reasons Acuity needs to go

divnyi

Don't get me wrong, I use it on 2 characters myself. I love the set. I used it in proctank meta too, a lot, and I'm playing no-CP mostly, even tho CP 2.0 changes buffed acuity A LOT.

But thing is, proctank gameplay got nuked while acuity survived blackwood completely unharmed. Since people don't build those tanky bruisers with sick damage anymore, acuity burst is the major reason of oneshots. And if that's not an argument, it is one of the best average DPS items for PvP too, providing a whooping +30% average DPS and almost double DPS during burst timeframe.

Ppl are angry at bombers? Acuity.
Ppl are angry at overload+shards oneshots? Acuity.
Ppl are angry at crit damage? It's either cloak or acuity.
They are never angry about natural crit chance.

Lughlongarm

Hard no!!

Acuity is not a proc set, it is a stats amplifier set exactly like Alchemist or Balorgh. If anything, unlike sets such as Alchemist / Balorgh, Acuity does not benefit proc builds at all as procs cannot crit.

Some gank builds use Acuity? So what? It's not even meta. Most NB gank builds relay on stealth crits not Acuity. Why only NB should be able to build for burst crits builds? Acuity has an important role in the overall PvP build diversity, don't touch it.

NordSwordnBoard

Even after reading the thread about sorc OL desynch, I still would not want to see Acuity nerfed. I think that next patch or soon after they will go nerfing crit through CP or some other adjustment and try to nerf NBs at the same time, whether or not they wear acuity. You won't solve one-shots nerfing one set, they will pick another. Fixing player desynchronization from the server would do so much more to help imo.

Acuity magnifies the crit issue more than I think its the cause. Remember when the community asked for:
Proc Sets to be weakened in favor of stats and doing the damage yourself
Crafted sets to be more competitive/useful
Ways for the frustrated solo/small group to deal with organized or ball groups

I think part of acuity being everywhere is its easy to make, and if magic users lost damage from proc sets scaling they could replace that lost damage with the crit burst from acuity.

xylena_lazarow

Nerfing crit chance and crit resistance while buffing crit damage have all indirectly massively buffed Acuity. The set is far more powerful than when it was released. Nerf worthy? I don't know, I doubt that would put a dent in the stealth burst meta. At the very least they should do something about the Overload desync gank.

YandereGirlfriend

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Nerfing crit chance and crit resistance while buffing crit damage have all indirectly massively buffed Acuity. The set is far more powerful than when it was released. Nerf worthy? I don't know, I doubt that would put a dent in the stealth burst meta. At the very least they should do something about the Overload desync gank.

I agree that Acuity is fine and that instead players need more and better sources of Critical Resistance (and also a nerf to how high you can stack Critical Damage).

The problem is giving access to those new sources of Critical Resistance to normal players and solos. You can't stuff them all into group-support sets or even sets like Impregnable since you are then either excluding solo players from their benefits or else forcing players into using specific sets just to counter a few styles of play.

We need more Critical Resistance from sets but it also needs to be sprinkled into class and universal abilities so that players of all kinds may have access to them.

darvaria

Acuity is the problem. Of course ppl that are 1 shotting ppl using it want to keep it.

It will be NERFED soon. Guaranteed. LIke they do everything else. Example: what happened to Crimson? NERF bat. Blessed? NERF bat. ETC.

Nerf bat incoming!

divnyi

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Some gank builds use Acuity? So what? It's not even meta. Most NB gank builds relay on stealth crits not Acuity.

Depends on what do you call meta. Close range? Probably caluurions. Snipeblade? I would argue that you lose if you don't slot acuity, no other item provides this burst damage modifier.

I also think that cloak crit can be nerfed to big crit chance bonus, so crit based procs have a chance to whiff. Same can be done to acuity really. +35% crit chance sounds fair.

darvaria

I give Acuity 1 or 2 patches and it will be nerfed to nothing.

Need to add VD on that list too.

Alucardo

darvaria wrote: »

I give Acuity 1 or 2 patches and it will be nerfed to nothing.

Need to add VD on that list too.

VD is a lot more situational, so while I detest it, I think it's fine.

vesselwiththepestle

MA already got nerfed several times.

DrSlaughtr

VD is the biggest issue. It got buffed to the point it's been run by non bombers.

MA is a bs set but what can you do.

Crit damage is fine where it is. Free auto crit damage for 5 seconds is bs.

Shadow Disguise is not the issue. First off it's buggy as hell. Half the time my next attack doesn't crit. Secondly, I'm usually hitting ambush first, not incap. Even if I do crit my incap it's rarely a one shot. I rely on balorgh for the execute.

Calling for NB nerf when it's only one subset of NB playstyle is not fair to those of us who live and die on single target damage. I'm not wiping out whole groups with free damage, hitting skills exactly when the game tells me to. Seriously, bombing right now is even easier than running warden.

WrathOfInnos

I find it odd that Acuity was nerfed along with all the other crit sets, but the specific nerf was chosen in a way that had no effect on its burst. If you are bombing/ganking less frequently than every 21s, it performs just as well as pre-nerf. I’m not sure how they would avoid this though, you could reduce the duration of 100% crit down to 2-3s and a bomber/ganker would still be able to fit their combo in the proc. Maybe make it ramp up gradually to 100%, like an exaggerated form of Advancing Yokeda, with a cooldown and downtime?

The main thing that was nerfed was Acuity’s sustained damage, which had a large impact on its usefulness in PVE. Maybe this was the intent, killing the set for trials such as vAS while leaving it strong for PVP burst? I don’t really understand the thought process.

jaws343

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VD is the biggest issue. It got buffed to the point it's been run by non bombers.

MA is a bs set but what can you do.

Crit damage is fine where it is. Free auto crit damage for 5 seconds is bs.

Shadow Disguise is not the issue. First off it's buggy as hell. Half the time my next attack doesn't crit. Secondly, I'm usually hitting ambush first, not incap. Even if I do crit my incap it's rarely a one shot. I rely on balorgh for the execute.

Calling for NB nerf when it's only one subset of NB playstyle is not fair to those of us who live and die on single target damage. I'm not wiping out whole groups with free damage, hitting skills exactly when the game tells me to. Seriously, bombing right now is even easier than running warden.

I used to run VD on non bombers before the proc changes. It was fairly decent on magplar, where you often were up close on top of multiple people fighting, so killing one would potentially drop the group.

Now, I doubt I run VD on anything but a bomber. You have to sacrifice too much to stack spell damage to get anywhere near a good amount of damage with the set.

DrSlaughtr

jaws343 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VD is the biggest issue. It got buffed to the point it's been run by non bombers.

MA is a bs set but what can you do.

Crit damage is fine where it is. Free auto crit damage for 5 seconds is bs.

Shadow Disguise is not the issue. First off it's buggy as hell. Half the time my next attack doesn't crit. Secondly, I'm usually hitting ambush first, not incap. Even if I do crit my incap it's rarely a one shot. I rely on balorgh for the execute.

Calling for NB nerf when it's only one subset of NB playstyle is not fair to those of us who live and die on single target damage. I'm not wiping out whole groups with free damage, hitting skills exactly when the game tells me to. Seriously, bombing right now is even easier than running warden.

I used to run VD on non bombers before the proc changes. It was fairly decent on magplar, where you often were up close on top of multiple people fighting, so killing one would potentially drop the group.

Now, I doubt I run VD on anything but a bomber. You have to sacrifice too much to stack spell damage to get anywhere near a good amount of damage with the set.

Several emps on XB are running it. You've not lived until an emp rolls in solo and wipes an entire group with one Dawny.

StaticWave

Acuity isn’t the problem. Low critical resistance and absurdly high damage is the problem. Give us back our crit resist and remove the 1k weapon/spell dmg, and you would see a huge improvement.

divnyi

StaticWave wrote: »

Acuity isn’t the problem. Low critical resistance and absurdly high damage is the problem. Give us back our crit resist and remove the 1k weapon/spell dmg, and you would see a huge improvement.

Crit res is higher than before impen nerf, because everyone have 20% crit resistance now.

YandereGirlfriend

divnyi wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Acuity isn’t the problem. Low critical resistance and absurdly high damage is the problem. Give us back our crit resist and remove the 1k weapon/spell dmg, and you would see a huge improvement.

Crit res is higher than before impen nerf, because everyone have 20% crit resistance now.

They probably mean Critical Resistance relative to how it was before.

Especially if you play in CP formats the deck is currently very stacked in favor of Critical Damage.

There are many more accessible means of stacking it that did not exist prior to a few patches ago.

Skullstachio

I believe the biggest problem here is that There is no proper separation between PVE and PVP, if a set were to be nerfed or buffed for a specific game mode (I.e. PVE or PVP) then said buffs/nerfs should be exclusively tied to Battle Spirit, because Everytime a good set gets nerfed because a PVP’er cries about it(lookin at you OP), it has a detrimental impact on its use in PVE and vice versa.

Let PVP buffs and nerfs to just about everything be mutually exclusive to battle spirit instead of affecting both PVP and PVE at the same time, because as far as I know, Everytime a nerf came in because of a PVP issue, a PVE’er had a problem with it and Everytime there was a nerf because of a PVE issue on the other hand, sometimes it’s almost never talked about unless it was significant (be it cheese related.)

Brutal truth: Sometime in the future, ZOS may need to drive the nail in the coffin regarding the Buff/Nerf separation between PVE and PVP so as to allow PVE’ers to live out potential power fantasies while keeping PVP balanced Seperately. In the end, there won’t be as many complaints on either end and it will further prove that they do listen as they tend to do, as truly good as ESO is, Even creative minds such as theirs can often be misguided if not preoccupied with other matters.

WrathOfInnos

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Acuity isn’t the problem. Low critical resistance and absurdly high damage is the problem. Give us back our crit resist and remove the 1k weapon/spell dmg, and you would see a huge improvement.

Crit res is higher than before impen nerf, because everyone have 20% crit resistance now.

They probably mean Critical Resistance relative to how it was before.

Especially if you play in CP formats the deck is currently very stacked in favor of Critical Damage.

There are many more accessible means of stacking it that did not exist prior to a few patches ago.

In PVE yes, but I don’t believe things like Elemental Catalyst and Minor Brittle are used much in PVP (maybe in very coordinated groups for large battles, but I haven’t seen it). In BGs it’s uncommon to even see Major Force from Warhorn in random groups.

For CP enabled content there is Fighting Finesse for 10% and Backstabber for 15%. That’s 25% total with a massive limitation of behind behind the enemy. The previous CP system allowed 25% from Elfborn with no positional requirements, and cost the same 100 points as FF + BS combined.

As for defending against it, seems to be easy enough, but most are not bothering to change their builds (myself included, still in 7 divines because I’m too lazy to go Impen). For comparison, 7 divines adds 7% crit damage (with Shadow), while 7 impen IIRC provides 27% crit reduction. That’s almost 4X the bonus, but many builds haven’t bothered to spend the transmutes since they avoided Impen during the Malacath meta.

In addition to Impen, Impregnable set gives 25% crit resistance, enough to counter Finesse + Backstabber or Catalyst + Brittle.

Transmutation is another great option, providing 21% crit resistance to the whole group. This one set alone more than counters full uptime of Major Force if the enemy has multiple Warhorns or the new Saxlheel set.

More than I intended to write here . I just hope players are trying some of these options before complaining about Acuity or crit damage. It’s on the individual to adapt.

divnyi

@WrathOfInnos for BGs crit damage didn't increase - except maybe using axes with acuity. But in CP backstab star is an issue. Previous CP crit was negated by crit resist star completely. CP resist star only gives 10% resist.

Impen trait doesn't give you 27% crit reduction. It was nerfed and all characters got 20% crit reductions base, while x7 impen gives around 13.5%. Depending on character, you might do better with sturdy or well-fitted, even against gankers.

Impregnable is outright bad because it does nothing against players who don't crit. I don't even understand why it sells so high.

And it is ridiculous to think that acuity wasn't an issue before. I rolled acuity sniper since previous mayhem, it was never bad in a good hands. Now people roll less health because they can't kill otherwise (with proctanks nerfed), which makes acuity sniper even more busted.

StaticWave

divnyi wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Acuity isn’t the problem. Low critical resistance and absurdly high damage is the problem. Give us back our crit resist and remove the 1k weapon/spell dmg, and you would see a huge improvement.

Crit res is higher than before impen nerf, because everyone have 20% crit resistance now.

It is impossible to reach 3k critical resistance in CP without the help of a critical resistance set. Even then, it isn’t worth investing for critical resistance because you are giving up a damage or single target/aoe dmg mitigation cp to use critical resistance cp. You will still end up taking more damage than before the critical resistance nerf.

DrSlaughtr

So first it was people (rightfully) complaining about the tank meta. People are too tanky. Too hard to kill. But still putting out massive damage.

The community wanted change. They got it. And they should have because being a tank should not also let you kill left and right.

So now we have a system where people are easier to kill. Now it's nerf nightblades. Nerf crit. Blah blah because it's MYM.

Mechanical Aquity is a bs set and causes severe imbalances but guess what, in a couple months we can all choose a no proc camp. I'm a stamblade and I'll be in no proc in a heartbeat.

Stop trying to nerf crit. It's perfectly fine now. Unless you want to go back to everyone running malacath and then you'll just complain about that.

Skullstachio

TheEndBringer wrote: »

So first it was people (rightfully) complaining about the tank meta. People are too tanky. Too hard to kill. But still putting out massive damage.

The community wanted change. They got it. And they should have because being a tank should not also let you kill left and right.

So now we have a system where people are easier to kill. Now it's nerf nightblades. Nerf crit. Blah blah because it's MYM.

Mechanical Aquity is a bs set and causes severe imbalances but guess what, in a couple months we can all choose a no proc camp. I'm a stamblade and I'll be in no proc in a heartbeat.

Stop trying to nerf crit. It's perfectly fine now. Unless you want to go back to everyone running malacath and then you'll just complain about that.

Agreed, I use Mechanical Acuity on my warden in PVE because there isn’t much to work with Critical wise and focused on both raw and critical damage (since there is little crit chance to work with) using MA on the side for timed Burst Damage when the rotation is set up right.

Specifically, MA is useful for classes who do not have much critical chance to begin with, classes like Necromancer or Nightblade who have a few skills/passives which revolve around critical chance, MA isn’t as effective for them but is very helpful for beginners that are learning about critical chance before finally making their own ideal build of their choice. MA or not.

YandereGirlfriend

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Acuity isn’t the problem. Low critical resistance and absurdly high damage is the problem. Give us back our crit resist and remove the 1k weapon/spell dmg, and you would see a huge improvement.

Crit res is higher than before impen nerf, because everyone have 20% crit resistance now.

They probably mean Critical Resistance relative to how it was before.

Especially if you play in CP formats the deck is currently very stacked in favor of Critical Damage.

There are many more accessible means of stacking it that did not exist prior to a few patches ago.

In PVE yes, but I don’t believe things like Elemental Catalyst and Minor Brittle are used much in PVP (maybe in very coordinated groups for large battles, but I haven’t seen it). In BGs it’s uncommon to even see Major Force from Warhorn in random groups.

For CP enabled content there is Fighting Finesse for 10% and Backstabber for 15%. That’s 25% total with a massive limitation of behind behind the enemy. The previous CP system allowed 25% from Elfborn with no positional requirements, and cost the same 100 points as FF + BS combined.

As for defending against it, seems to be easy enough, but most are not bothering to change their builds (myself included, still in 7 divines because I’m too lazy to go Impen). For comparison, 7 divines adds 7% crit damage (with Shadow), while 7 impen IIRC provides 27% crit reduction. That’s almost 4X the bonus, but many builds haven’t bothered to spend the transmutes since they avoided Impen during the Malacath meta.

In addition to Impen, Impregnable set gives 25% crit resistance, enough to counter Finesse + Backstabber or Catalyst + Brittle.

Transmutation is another great option, providing 21% crit resistance to the whole group. This one set alone more than counters full uptime of Major Force if the enemy has multiple Warhorns or the new Saxlheel set.

More than I intended to write here . I just hope players are trying some of these options before complaining about Acuity or crit damage. It’s on the individual to adapt.

Some others have chimed in to address some topics before me but I did just want to mention that Saxhleel has actually become a staple in many ball groups in Cyrodiil and that I actually run Catalyst (as well as a means of reliably inflicting Minor Brittle) to stack along with it.

Ball groups can and do basically stack Critical Damage as high as trial groups - up to like a +150% modifier in Non-CP formats (which is what I play in and all that I have experience with) depending upon the precise race and class combination in question (and Khajiit Nightblades are popular bomber choices). In Non-CP, Critical Resistance maxes out at -85% (20% base + Impenetrable + Transmutation + Sturdy Horn) without resorting to Impregnable so the advantage remains decidedly with the attacker.

That said, I love that Critical stacking has become a viable option for dealing damage for various types of playstyles. I would just like to see some additional options to defend against it in PvP as well.

And not even necessarily for ball groups fighting other ball groups but more for the average zone or small-scale player who doesn't have a dedicated healer running Transmutation and Wizard's Riposte for them. They need Critical Resistance buffs tied to actual in-game abilities to defend themselves from ganking and unlucky dice rolls against other normal players.

We already have Minor Enervation (though it's tied to questionable sources) and it should be accompanied by a Major Enervation debuff as well. On top of that, I wouldn't mind seeing buffs tied to the Major/Minor system that increase player Critical Resistance.

And, best of all, none of that would touch on PvE since all of the above buffs and debuffs would be entirely irrelevant to that content.

Zabagad

[snip]

I hate every "nerf this or that" thread - specially for not buffed sets which exists for a long time and are now target, bc of some other stuff they changed.
Especially I hate a nerf threads about sets when I have more then 20 golden jewellery pieces of that set. (different traits and glyphes)
At least until ZOS gives us a fair chance to get a bigger part of our investet mats/gold/time back

[snipped for baiting]

Lughlongarm

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Acuity isn’t the problem. Low critical resistance and absurdly high damage is the problem. Give us back our crit resist and remove the 1k weapon/spell dmg, and you would see a huge improvement.

Crit res is higher than before impen nerf, because everyone have 20% crit resistance now.

They probably mean Critical Resistance relative to how it was before.

Especially if you play in CP formats the deck is currently very stacked in favor of Critical Damage.

There are many more accessible means of stacking it that did not exist prior to a few patches ago.

In PVE yes, but I don’t believe things like Elemental Catalyst and Minor Brittle are used much in PVP (maybe in very coordinated groups for large battles, but I haven’t seen it). In BGs it’s uncommon to even see Major Force from Warhorn in random groups.

For CP enabled content there is Fighting Finesse for 10% and Backstabber for 15%. That’s 25% total with a massive limitation of behind behind the enemy. The previous CP system allowed 25% from Elfborn with no positional requirements, and cost the same 100 points as FF + BS combined.

As for defending against it, seems to be easy enough, but most are not bothering to change their builds (myself included, still in 7 divines because I’m too lazy to go Impen). For comparison, 7 divines adds 7% crit damage (with Shadow), while 7 impen IIRC provides 27% crit reduction. That’s almost 4X the bonus, but many builds haven’t bothered to spend the transmutes since they avoided Impen during the Malacath meta.

In addition to Impen, Impregnable set gives 25% crit resistance, enough to counter Finesse + Backstabber or Catalyst + Brittle.

Transmutation is another great option, providing 21% crit resistance to the whole group. This one set alone more than counters full uptime of Major Force if the enemy has multiple Warhorns or the new Saxlheel set.

More than I intended to write here . I just hope players are trying some of these options before complaining about Acuity or crit damage. It’s on the individual to adapt.

Some others have chimed in to address some topics before me but I did just want to mention that Saxhleel has actually become a staple in many ball groups in Cyrodiil and that I actually run Catalyst (as well as a means of reliably inflicting Minor Brittle) to stack along with it.

Ball groups can and do basically stack Critical Damage as high as trial groups - up to like a +150% modifier in Non-CP formats (which is what I play in and all that I have experience with) depending upon the precise race and class combination in question (and Khajiit Nightblades are popular bomber choices). In Non-CP, Critical Resistance maxes out at -85% (20% base + Impenetrable + Transmutation + Sturdy Horn) without resorting to Impregnable so the advantage remains decidedly with the attacker.

That said, I love that Critical stacking has become a viable option for dealing damage for various types of playstyles. I would just like to see some additional options to defend against it in PvP as well.

And not even necessarily for ball groups fighting other ball groups but more for the average zone or small-scale player who doesn't have a dedicated healer running Transmutation and Wizard's Riposte for them. They need Critical Resistance buffs tied to actual in-game abilities to defend themselves from ganking and unlucky dice rolls against other normal players.

We already have Minor Enervation (though it's tied to questionable sources) and it should be accompanied by a Major Enervation debuff as well. On top of that, I wouldn't mind seeing buffs tied to the Major/Minor system that increase player Critical Resistance.

And, best of all, none of that would touch on PvE since all of the above buffs and debuffs would be entirely irrelevant to that content.

I don't see how you can reliably maintain Catalyst + Brittle on a ball group of players in PvP. It takes some effort to even maintain 100% uptime on 1 static target in PVE. On the other hand, Transmutation and Wizard's Riposte effects can easily be applied to a ball group with very reliable uptime with the effect of over 30% crit mitigation.

I do agree however, that more crit mitigation options are needed.

WrathOfInnos

@divnyi You’re right about the new Impen values, it’s 13.5% now. My mistake and thanks for the correction, but the point still stands that Impen is much more effective at mitigating crit than Divines is at increasing crit damage (about double). IMO anyone in 7 divines has no right to complain if they’re killed by a crit build (myself included).

divnyi wrote: »

Impregnable is outright bad because it does nothing against players who don't crit. I don't even understand why it sells so high.

I know what you mean, but that way of thinking is exactly why crit is so effective. If most players are not built to survive it, then obviously acuity builds will do well.

@YandereGirlfriend That’s interesting to hear the Catalyst and Brittle have made their way into Cyro. Guessing uptimes aren’t great since players generally don’t stand in AoE, but could definitely make a difference on a breach or flag. Major Enervation could be cool, but as a debuff it wouldn’t really help against bombers. I agree that a named Major/Minor crit resistance buff would be nice, as long as the Major wasn’t too easy to keep up 100% (maybe increase Sturdy Warhorn from 15% to 20% and call it the Major, an exact counter to Major Force on Aggressive Warhorn).

Wizards Riposte looks nice, I might have to find my old set and try it again. 10% crit resist + reduces enemy crit damage by another 10%. I guess it’s not quite as powerful as Transmutation in groups, but they do stack, and I prefer the 2-4 piece bonuses on WR.

YandereGirlfriend

@WrathOfInnos Necessity is the mother of invention and there are several ways to provide constant (and, importantly, mobile) AoE coverage of all three Catalyst stacks that you can easily time with your group's burst window. Several of them also excel at providing Minor Brittle.

These builds would be completely abominable in PvE but with a ball group you are dealing essentially with ants in a colony, each with their own narrow and highly specific function. This particular function is to provide the debuffs and then it is the responsibility of the bombers themselves to capitalize on them.

Since each stack also counts as its own unique debuff it has the side benefit of highly degrading the target's ability to successfully use purge as a countermeasure due to basically flooding them with simultaneous negative effects every single GCD.

FrancisCrawford

To be clear -- Mechanical Acuity has a theoretical max uptime of 5/21, correct?

And does it give you crit on the damage that causes the proc?

FrancisCrawford

If your crit chance is 50%ish or less, Acuity looks like a pretty good PvE set, assuming 20%+ uptime.

Andre_Noir

darvaria wrote: »

I give Acuity 1 or 2 patches and it will be nerfed to nothing.

Need to add VD on that list too.

VD itself just one of the most balanced sets but the problem that sets those lift it (Acuity, Balorgh) + DW passives are not