Impen needs a buff

Fawn4287

Crit damage this update is just silly, cyrodil is just a nightblades paradise at the moment with bombers not even needing to use proxy to kill people, gankers can easily crank out 30k damage with an incap and a surprise attack with no issues. Im all for people dying quickly but currently unless you’re running around on a tank, survivability against the super high crit damage is so incredibly difficult that its just like play in a group on a tank and get bombed or play on a nightblade.

The problem is that crit is still % based whilst nearly everything else in the game has been changed to raw values. Crit damage bonus is so incredibly easy to stack by using khajit, shadow mundas, minor force, fighting finesse CP and an axe giving easily nearly a 60% bonus to crit damage not including class bonuses without even heavily speccing in to it. Since crit is so essential to PvE and % chance already being nothing from CP The fix is to change impen back to its original value per piece in order to give some counter to the overperformance of heavy crit stacking.

milllaurie

I do not agree at all. This current balance is the most satisfying in the history of eso. Everyone is killable but you can still survive if you are good.
Fighting outnumbered is actually challenging now, compared to the days of 7th+fury meta when you could just outheal 10 people.
If you take critical damage away from nbs they have nothing else left. They do not have any delayed burst like every other class (apart from Stamdk) does.
Try running critical riposte backbar if you are struggling.

Sluggy

We just got finished overhauling it so that it wouldn't be the default BiS option in all cases. It's at a point now where it is a legit tradeoff. Impen now sits in that magic place where it's not worthless and it's not the obvious choice. This is what I like to call "balance".

YandereGirlfriend

I'm ambivalent about this.

On the one hand, stamBlade damage probably is over-tuned at the moment but on the other hand, magBlade is still rarely seen outside of bombers and stacking Crit isn't really a viable option anymore for other classes, even Templar.

Before we all had base Critical Resistance, you could make Critical-based builds on most classes that would perform well but that's not really the case these days.

So I would like to see changes to reign in stamBlade specifically while making Critical-based builds more viable for everyone else. I'm fine with however that might be accomplished.

Ragnaroek93

I mean just block when a Nb goes offensive. They don't have any counter to block, dodge and healing while being really squishy so they're really predictable to fight against. If you nerf their burst you'd need to give them more pressure and some ways to counter block, dodge and healing. If both Incap and Relentless go through without you reacting to any of it then the Nb deserved the kill tbh.

Being ganked while fighting is annoying but pretty much any class can ruin your 1vX that's nothing Nb exclusive. Also stacking crit dmg becomes weaker the more crit dmg you get (unless they changed the formula). The damage from Nbs comes more from building offensive rather than stacking crit dmg tbh.

Fawn4287

milllaurie wrote: »

I do not agree at all. This current balance is the most satisfying in the history of eso. Everyone is killable but you can still survive if you are good.
Fighting outnumbered is actually challenging now, compared to the days of 7th+fury meta when you could just outheal 10 people.
If you take critical damage away from nbs they have nothing else left. They do not have any delayed burst like every other class (apart from Stamdk) does.
Try running critical riposte backbar if you are struggling.

Nightblades without their insane crit still have easily and by far the best evasive skills in the game with both cloak and shade, they have merciless/relentless instead of a delayed damage which after the absurd 20% damage boost the cheapest ult in the game gives hits as hard as 2 delayed damage abilities. Nightblades only drawback was their weak healing which has become a non issue with how strong healing is now. Impen changes were implemented before CP 2.0.

Fawn4287

Sluggy wrote: »

We just got finished overhauling it so that it wouldn't be the default BiS option in all cases. It's at a point now where it is a legit tradeoff. Impen now sits in that magic place where it's not worthless and it's not the obvious choice. This is what I like to call "balance".

Impen is and always has been BIS even more so now that malacath isn’t the absolute be all and end all and allows crits, the problem is that running sets dedicated to purely to boost crit resistance is using sets to counter just nighhtblade damage and maybe templar, much like running detect pots to purely counter 1 ability, or running a gapclose just to counter streak, it makes more sense to balance 1 ability or build than make every build in the game have to be heavily invested in to countering a handful of overperforming skills. If you run 7 impen you should be rolling in crit resist, not running at an acceptable amount with it and being grossly under equipped without it.

ExistingRug61

While I can sort of see where the OP is coming from on this, I would be against any changes to impen.

First, lets take a moment to look at what has actually changed with crit and also opportunity costs building crit:

1) While it may be "easy" to stack crit, its not like these sources don't come at an opportunity cost. Khajiit means you can't get the stats or damage from a race like orc, dunmer or altmer. Shadow competes with damage, pen or regen options. Axes would be instead of maces or swords, and in terms of damage are almost always worse than maces for damage, even on a crit build. Also nothing has really changed here from a couple of patches ago (assuming the player isn't using axes), apart from Khajiit getting a buff of 2%.

2) There were more substantial changes in CP. Previously crit damage CP and crit resist CP had maxes of 25%, which basically cancelled each other out. Now we have three slottable stars - one for generic crit damage and one for generic crit resist, both at 10%, and then another conditional crit damage star in backstabber of another 15%. So there is potential that crit damage has become changed here, as there is more potential damage than resist. Also potentially many players may be choosing not to use the crit resist star, further compounding that differential. However an important note here is these are all slottable stars, so there is an opportunity cost in terms of getting that crit damage.

3) The final indirect change was the addition of base damage stats, meaning that crit being a multiplier is more useful in general than previous. This is somewhat countered by the general crit chance nerfs. However nightblade somewhat avoided that nerf, especially given its ability to guarantee a crit. These stats could also be part of the perceived problem, but thats a much much wider effect.

So with all that said, I would be open to the idea that there may be a more crit damage going around, especially in the case of nightblade. But I don't think buffing impen is the right way to go about addressing it.

Impen as a trait needs to be balanced against other traits otherwise it simply returns to an overwhelmingly BiS option. Just because it was always BiS in the past before its previous reduction doesn't mean that it should remain so - I would prefer to have the ability to use other armour traits as viable options. I also think it important that building crit resist come at a similar opportunity to cost to crit damage, as these sort of choices seem to be where ZOS is trying to push us.

Fawn4287 wrote: »

If you run 7 impen you should be rolling in crit resist, not running at an acceptable amount with it and being grossly under equipped without it.

Alternatively: If you run 7 impen you should be getting about the same amount as benefit as if you ran 7 divines (assuming shadow mundus). (or any other trait, but using divines for the direct comparison here)
Currently each piece of impen gives 127 crit resist (equivalent to reducing crit damage by 1.8%). Each divines piece (with shadow) by comparison gives 1% crit damage/healing.
So impen is almost twice as strong, but given that the divines (shadow) also helps crit healing its probably reasonable. ANy more though may start to get way out of balance.

Now, with all that said, I wouldn't be against some other methods of defending against crit as there are currently a lot more sources of crit damage than crit resist, but only if they are a choice a player has to make that comes at some sort of opportunity cost, just like building for crit does. For example other set options, or even a new major/minor buff to oppose force[edit: just remembered that enervation exists for this, but has very few sources, so perhaps better accessibility of that is what I should have said here], maybe something to counteract backstabber. These would give other options to defend against crit damage without simply forcing an overpowered BiS impen back on us again.

Alternatively if it is just nightblade that has an overabundance of crit damage, then maybe it's that which requires adjustment rather than basically nerfing crit for everyone.
As you say

Fawn4287 wrote: »

it makes more sense to balance 1 ability or build than make every build in the game have to be heavily invested in to countering a handful of overperforming skills

Buffing impen and making it the only armour trait choice again would be changing every build just to defend against the one highlighted as an issue in the original post. Sure it isn't a heavy investment, but its still changing everyone else to address one problem. Furthermore, it would also have the effect of dooming any other class that may decide to run a crit build, or indirectly relies on crit passives, even though in most other cases these builds are not overperforming. Realistically I wouldn't mind seeing crit be more viable for other classes, especially given that in general crit builds are mutually exclusive with proc builds.

Ragnaroek93

Fawn4287 wrote: »

milllaurie wrote: »

I do not agree at all. This current balance is the most satisfying in the history of eso. Everyone is killable but you can still survive if you are good.
Fighting outnumbered is actually challenging now, compared to the days of 7th+fury meta when you could just outheal 10 people.
If you take critical damage away from nbs they have nothing else left. They do not have any delayed burst like every other class (apart from Stamdk) does.
Try running critical riposte backbar if you are struggling.

Nightblades without their insane crit still have easily and by far the best evasive skills in the game with both cloak and shade, they have merciless/relentless instead of a delayed damage which after the absurd 20% damage boost the cheapest ult in the game gives hits as hard as 2 delayed damage abilities. Nightblades only drawback was their weak healing which has become a non issue with how strong healing is now. Impen changes were implemented before CP 2.0.

If it would just be possible to somehow hit both Incap and Relentless in a row...

I mean you even complain about the tank meta by yourself but start complaining about the only kill condition which a Nb has. Because they won't kill you at all if they can't burst you since ZOS already nerfed the class so much and doesn't allow it to have any pressure or any counters to block, dodge and healing...

Fawn4287

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

milllaurie wrote: »

I do not agree at all. This current balance is the most satisfying in the history of eso. Everyone is killable but you can still survive if you are good.
Fighting outnumbered is actually challenging now, compared to the days of 7th+fury meta when you could just outheal 10 people.
If you take critical damage away from nbs they have nothing else left. They do not have any delayed burst like every other class (apart from Stamdk) does.
Try running critical riposte backbar if you are struggling.

Nightblades without their insane crit still have easily and by far the best evasive skills in the game with both cloak and shade, they have merciless/relentless instead of a delayed damage which after the absurd 20% damage boost the cheapest ult in the game gives hits as hard as 2 delayed damage abilities. Nightblades only drawback was their weak healing which has become a non issue with how strong healing is now. Impen changes were implemented before CP 2.0.

If it would just be possible to somehow hit both Incap and Relentless in a row...

I mean you even complain about the tank meta by yourself but start complaining about the only kill condition which a Nb has. Because they won't kill you at all if they can't burst you since ZOS already nerfed the class so much and doesn't allow it to have any pressure or any counters to block, dodge and healing...

…..aspect of terror, turn evil

Ragnaroek93

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

milllaurie wrote: »

I do not agree at all. This current balance is the most satisfying in the history of eso. Everyone is killable but you can still survive if you are good.
Fighting outnumbered is actually challenging now, compared to the days of 7th+fury meta when you could just outheal 10 people.
If you take critical damage away from nbs they have nothing else left. They do not have any delayed burst like every other class (apart from Stamdk) does.
Try running critical riposte backbar if you are struggling.

Nightblades without their insane crit still have easily and by far the best evasive skills in the game with both cloak and shade, they have merciless/relentless instead of a delayed damage which after the absurd 20% damage boost the cheapest ult in the game gives hits as hard as 2 delayed damage abilities. Nightblades only drawback was their weak healing which has become a non issue with how strong healing is now. Impen changes were implemented before CP 2.0.

If it would just be possible to somehow hit both Incap and Relentless in a row...

I mean you even complain about the tank meta by yourself but start complaining about the only kill condition which a Nb has. Because they won't kill you at all if they can't burst you since ZOS already nerfed the class so much and doesn't allow it to have any pressure or any counters to block, dodge and healing...

…..aspect of terror, turn evil

How is that a counter when you can just break free and continue to block before an Incap or Relentless can follow up?

divnyi

Pls don't make impen *required* trait again. I like how you can now choose.

If the issue is CP crit damage, they need to buff defensive option to be 20% or even 25% to compensate (this still might not be ideal pick because not everyone crits).

Also I see more problems with crit being only viable if it's from cloak or acuity. And I see that blue glow more and more now.

relentless_turnip

Impen is in a good place IMO. Previously it was the only trait to use, now you get equal benefit from well fitted or sturdy as defensive options. Crit damage has only improved in a cp environment. Perhaps the "resistant" slottable could be buffed, but beyond this I think it's in a good place.

Asardes

You have 20% critical resistance by default
7 legendary impenetrable pieces give ~13.5% critical resistance (7x127/6600)
Resilience CP gives 10% critical resistance (660/6600)

I agree that the *opportunity cost* of not running impenetrable has been diminished, since back in the day you has no inherent critical resistance, and you had ~27% critical resistance with 7 pieces impenetrable. Back then it was impenetrable or get rekt, unless you were a ganker. But now you have ~33.5% with the same setup. So overall it's a buff to critical resistance, although other traits have become more useful:
- sturdy is also useful since block cost has been increased due to CP bonus reduction
- well fitted is now more useful than ever, due to the roll dodge cost penalty added by heavy armor
- divines received a buff, and it scales especially well with Atronach/Serpent mundi which were buffed in turn, meaning you can sustain really well if you use one of those mundi, even when running 2 damage sets and blue health+magicka/stamina food.

Personally I dropped impenetrable and run full divines on my light and medium armor builds as of last year. I used to have a Stamina DK heavy armor build that had 4 divines 3 well fitted but I replaced it with a medium build as of Blackwood, since the former was based on health recovery (up to 4.4k pre-patch), but since that was halved by Battle Spirit it wasn't that good anymore, so I went for raw weapon damage and penetration instead.

Lughlongarm

You need one healer in a group to run
Robes of Transmutation+ Critical Riposte = over 30% crit reduction to all enemies.

YandereGirlfriend

Thoughts on using Minor Enervation strike me as wise.

We also need a Major Enervation and we need those debuffs to be sourced from abilities in addition to more and better sets.

Right now you can only get them two sets and Poisons and that is simply far too limited.

Lughlongarm wrote: »

You need one healer in a group to run
Robes of Transmutation+ Critical Riposte = over 30% crit reduction to all enemies.

This is true but neither of these sets will work against the first tick of damage against you. So if that tick happens to be like an Acuity + Harmony Gravity Crush then you will be deleted before those sets ever kick in.

Critical Riposte is also the lesser Minor Enervation set since it has a cooldown. Nearly any group will purge that and then your set will be useless. Wizard's Riposte is the way to go.

Lughlongarm

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Thoughts on using Minor Enervation strike me as wise.

We also need a Major Enervation and we need those debuffs to be sourced from abilities in addition to more and better sets.

Right now you can only get them two sets and Poisons and that is simply far too limited.

Lughlongarm wrote: »

You need one healer in a group to run
Robes of Transmutation+ Critical Riposte = over 30% crit reduction to all enemies.

This is true but neither of these sets will work against the first tick of damage against you. So if that tick happens to be like an Acuity + Harmony Gravity Crush then you will be deleted before those sets ever kick in.

Critical Riposte is also the lesser Minor Enervation set since it has a cooldown. Nearly any group will purge that and then your set will be useless. Wizard's Riposte is the way to go.

Ya, true. Wizard's Riposte is the better set. It also adds base critical resistance, so with the right setup you are good.

DrSlaughtr

Fawn4287 wrote: »

milllaurie wrote: »

I do not agree at all. This current balance is the most satisfying in the history of eso. Everyone is killable but you can still survive if you are good.
Fighting outnumbered is actually challenging now, compared to the days of 7th+fury meta when you could just outheal 10 people.
If you take critical damage away from nbs they have nothing else left. They do not have any delayed burst like every other class (apart from Stamdk) does.
Try running critical riposte backbar if you are struggling.

Nightblades without their insane crit still have easily and by far the best evasive skills in the game with both cloak and shade, they have merciless/relentless instead of a delayed damage which after the absurd 20% damage boost the cheapest ult in the game gives hits as hard as 2 delayed damage abilities. Nightblades only drawback was their weak healing which has become a non issue with how strong healing is now. Impen changes were implemented before CP 2.0.

Incap is easiest ulti to dodge. The game warns you the attack is coming with a very audible sound effect telling you to move your butt or die. Anyone who mains a NB incap build will tell you that more than a few whiff, either because the target moved or because the server desync'd.

Resolve is a lot easier for magblade to use than Focus is for stamblade. On mag you can just light attack all day long to proc the spectral bow. You'll even kill people with just LA's. Focus is a little trickier because you rely more on other skills. Also the 10% damage buff when active isn't that noticable.

Shadow disguise is the buggiest skill in the game. It's so easy to pull someone out of stealth but if you've never played a NB you might not know how. Add in the "detect" bugs that just randomly prevent you from being undetected for minutes at a time and you see it's not easy at all to be a stamblade.

Bombers are pretty easy to run right now, though.

twing1_

Maybe it's time to introduce a new major/minor buff to resolve this issue.

Major/minor force doesn't have a defensive counterpart, whereas most other major/minor buffs do. What if a major/minor buff to crit resist were added to combat major/minor force? The new major/minor buff could be valued at 20/10% less critical damage taken, respectively, to perfectly mirror major/minor force.

This would provide counterplay to the aforementioned crit damage power creep going on, without having to rework existing mechanics. It would also provide a direct complement to the existing major/minor force as to "complete the set" if you will, as is the case with major/minor breach and resolve.

Example of what I'm talking about:

Major bolster: reduce incoming crit damage by 20%
Minor bolster: reduce incoming crit damage by 10%

Lughlongarm

twing1_ wrote: »

Maybe it's time to introduce a few new major/minor buffs/debuffs to resolve this issue.

Major/minor force doesn't have a defensive counterpart, whereas most other major/minor buffs do. With the recent addition of major/minor brittle as well, a new debuff could be added to balance that out as well.

This would provide counterplay to the aforementioned crit damage power creep going on, without having to rework existing mechanics. It would also provide direct complements to the existing major/minor force and brittle as to "complete the set" if you will, as is the case with major/minor breach and resolve.

Example of what I'm talking about:

Major agitation: reduce a targets crit damage by 20%
Minor agitation: reduce a targets crit damage by 10%

Major bolster: reduce crit damage taken by 20%
Minor bolster: reduce crit damage taken by 10%

Its already exists - Minor Enervation.

Basically don't change much. Transmute and Impregnable Armor can just be changed to Major Enervation.

Lughlongarm

I think this all issue got nothing to do with the crit system itself which seems more or less balanced. Its got more to do with opening strike from of stealth/crouch attacks, which is its own thing. Opening strike crit the target , CC the target and gets extra damage in PVE. For PVE I get get it, they want the assassin play style to feel rewarding, but for PvP, its an issue. Every gank for every gank build ever, starts from stealth/crouch . ZOS should give more tools that boost defenses vs stealth attacks.

Kinda like Radiant Magelight - "While slotted you gain Major Prophecy, increasing your Spell Critical rating by 2629. You also prevent the stun from stealth attacks for you and nearby allies." Let's say it was an active buff that would also add reduce opening strike damage by 30%. Put this buff on other sources so players will have options.

I think this kind of solution is much better than going back to "crit is a dead stat for PvP" meta we had for such a long time.

twing1_

Lughlongarm wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Maybe it's time to introduce a few new major/minor buffs/debuffs to resolve this issue.

Major/minor force doesn't have a defensive counterpart, whereas most other major/minor buffs do. With the recent addition of major/minor brittle as well, a new debuff could be added to balance that out as well.

This would provide counterplay to the aforementioned crit damage power creep going on, without having to rework existing mechanics. It would also provide direct complements to the existing major/minor force and brittle as to "complete the set" if you will, as is the case with major/minor breach and resolve.

Example of what I'm talking about:

Major agitation: reduce a targets crit damage by 20%
Minor agitation: reduce a targets crit damage by 10%

Major bolster: reduce crit damage taken by 20%
Minor bolster: reduce crit damage taken by 10%

Its already exists - Minor Enervation.

Basically don't change much. Transmute and Impregnable Armor can just be changed to Major Enervation.

Totally spaced on enervation. But AFAIK, there is no major/minor buff as the defensive counterpart to force, that reduces incoming crit damage.

Lughlongarm

twing1_ wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Maybe it's time to introduce a few new major/minor buffs/debuffs to resolve this issue.

Major/minor force doesn't have a defensive counterpart, whereas most other major/minor buffs do. With the recent addition of major/minor brittle as well, a new debuff could be added to balance that out as well.

This would provide counterplay to the aforementioned crit damage power creep going on, without having to rework existing mechanics. It would also provide direct complements to the existing major/minor force and brittle as to "complete the set" if you will, as is the case with major/minor breach and resolve.

Example of what I'm talking about:

Major agitation: reduce a targets crit damage by 20%
Minor agitation: reduce a targets crit damage by 10%

Major bolster: reduce crit damage taken by 20%
Minor bolster: reduce crit damage taken by 10%

Its already exists - Minor Enervation.

Basically don't change much. Transmute and Impregnable Armor can just be changed to Major Enervation.

Totally spaced on enervation. But AFAIK, there is no major/minor buff as the defensive counterpart to force, that reduces incoming crit damage.

That's true, but than again we have no buff that increase AOE damage by 20% to counter major evasion( I wish).

Fawn4287

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I think this all issue got nothing to do with the crit system itself which seems more or less balanced. Its got more to do with opening strike from of stealth/crouch attacks, which is its own thing. Opening strike crit the target , CC the target and gets extra damage in PVE. For PVE I get get it, they want the assassin play style to feel rewarding, but for PvP, its an issue. Every gank for every gank build ever, starts from stealth/crouch . ZOS should give more tools that boost defenses vs stealth attacks.

Kinda like Radiant Magelight - "While slotted you gain Major Prophecy, increasing your Spell Critical rating by 2629. You also prevent the stun from stealth attacks for you and nearby allies." Let's say it was an active buff that would also add reduce opening strike damage by 30%. Put this buff on other sources so players will have options.

I think this kind of solution is much better than going back to "crit is a dead stat for PvP" meta we had for such a long time.

Mage light and expert hunter should give a buff called something like true sight - shows the caster all stealthed targets within 20-25m for x seconds, instead if the garbage tiny aoe that reveals for next to no time.

Lughlongarm

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I think this all issue got nothing to do with the crit system itself which seems more or less balanced. Its got more to do with opening strike from of stealth/crouch attacks, which is its own thing. Opening strike crit the target , CC the target and gets extra damage in PVE. For PVE I get get it, they want the assassin play style to feel rewarding, but for PvP, its an issue. Every gank for every gank build ever, starts from stealth/crouch . ZOS should give more tools that boost defenses vs stealth attacks.

Kinda like Radiant Magelight - "While slotted you gain Major Prophecy, increasing your Spell Critical rating by 2629. You also prevent the stun from stealth attacks for you and nearby allies." Let's say it was an active buff that would also add reduce opening strike damage by 30%. Put this buff on other sources so players will have options.

I think this kind of solution is much better than going back to "crit is a dead stat for PvP" meta we had for such a long time.

Mage light and expert hunter should give a buff called something like true sight - shows the caster all stealthed targets within 20-25m for x seconds, instead if the garbage tiny aoe that reveals for next to no time.

Basically the same effect like the reveal potion.

ExistingRug61

twing1_ wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Maybe it's time to introduce a few new major/minor buffs/debuffs to resolve this issue.

Major/minor force doesn't have a defensive counterpart, whereas most other major/minor buffs do. With the recent addition of major/minor brittle as well, a new debuff could be added to balance that out as well.

This would provide counterplay to the aforementioned crit damage power creep going on, without having to rework existing mechanics. It would also provide direct complements to the existing major/minor force and brittle as to "complete the set" if you will, as is the case with major/minor breach and resolve.

Example of what I'm talking about:

Major agitation: reduce a targets crit damage by 20%
Minor agitation: reduce a targets crit damage by 10%

Major bolster: reduce crit damage taken by 20%
Minor bolster: reduce crit damage taken by 10%

Its already exists - Minor Enervation.

Basically don't change much. Transmute and Impregnable Armor can just be changed to Major Enervation.

Totally spaced on enervation. But AFAIK, there is no major/minor buff as the defensive counterpart to force, that reduces incoming crit damage.

True - and the offensive rebuff it would counter does exist, being brittle. Currently we have force vs enervation and brittle vs nothing.

So yes, there is missing space to have proper symmetry for something to oppose brittle. It would also have the advantage in comparison to enervation of being a buff applied to yourself so it could be used in advance and can’t be purged like enervation.

YandereGirlfriend

People are missing the issue though that, yes, Minor Enervation does exist and it counters Minor Force, but that it is only accessible through literally two sets in the entire game as well as Poisons of all things.

These buffs need to be tied to actual in-game abilities (and perhaps Potions?) that are commonly used by players if they are going to have any use whatsoever to anyone outside of organized groups.

DrSlaughtr

You guys are ridiculous. A skill that kills crit damage by 20%? Everyone just runs malacath because you just killed crit.

My crit % is like 35%. I get one guaranteed crit SOMETIMES (because it bugs out a lot) and that is usually ambush, not incap. Crit chance and damage have already been nerfed.

Bombers run a set to get crit kills. So maybe Mechanical Aquity is your beef. Without it they can't crit five attacks in a row.

I'll be the first to tell you bombing is out of control right now. So ask them to adjust VD so it actually takes effort to bomb rather than what you have right now where the game tells you when to fire what skills and when to perfectly jump into the fray.

A skill that reveals all stealthed enemies for 20 meters? You're killing the one thing that makes NBs unique because you don't want to get caught being lazy (no offense but true). A vast majority of NB builds are easily killed. If you want to stop us from sneaking away, hit us with a dot like Haunting Curse.

We are easy to avoid. Watch your flank. Stay with group. Don't stack on targets. If you're running around with 22k health you WILL be targeted.

Every class currently has the ability to defend against NBs. It's just a matter of compromising on your bars and/or gear.

YandereGirlfriend

TheEndBringer wrote: »

You guys are ridiculous. A skill that kills crit damage by 20%? Everyone just runs malacath because you just killed crit.

My crit % is like 35%. I get one guaranteed crit SOMETIMES (because it bugs out a lot) and that is usually ambush, not incap. Crit chance and damage have already been nerfed.

Bombers run a set to get crit kills. So maybe Mechanical Aquity is your beef. Without it they can't crit five attacks in a row.

I'll be the first to tell you bombing is out of control right now. So ask them to adjust VD so it actually takes effort to bomb rather than what you have right now where the game tells you when to fire what skills and when to perfectly jump into the fray.

A skill that reveals all stealthed enemies for 20 meters? You're killing the one thing that makes NBs unique because you don't want to get caught being lazy (no offense but true). A vast majority of NB builds are easily killed. If you want to stop us from sneaking away, hit us with a dot like Haunting Curse.

We are easy to avoid. Watch your flank. Stay with group. Don't stack on targets. If you're running around with 22k health you WILL be targeted.

Every class currently has the ability to defend against NBs. It's just a matter of compromising on your bars and/or gear.

Your Critical Chance is that low because you haven't made any actual investments in it - that's basically what you get by default for using 5 Medium, Camo Hunter, and NB passive Minor Savagery.

It makes me wonder what you're doing with the rest of your sets (knowing nothing else, I would suspect proc damage sets).

Urzigurumash

I agree with every word in this thread, so like Yandere I'm ambivalent, but let's not overlook the obvious consideration that Impen does nothing against VD itself, if nobody had mentioned that.

I think the base resistances of armor could use a small increase, while leaving the new percentile Damage Taken penalties in place. Or maybe the Nirnhoned and Reinforced traits need a buff - more of a counter to VD, and an indirect buff to non-VD Crit Builds by discouraging all Impen - the other broken gank outliers besides VD being separate, unique issues like Fawn has described in other threads.

It's quite nice having Crit as a viable stat for all classes in PvP again. It's quite nice there are again now other viable flavors of ganking besides VD. It's not at all nice if everybody is running a VD ganker, nobody wants that, it defeats the purpose of that set and that role.

Hexquisite

All this meta has done is made people way more tanky--and I didn't think that was possible.

I think that there is a disconnect between those who play the map, and therefore have to be in situations where it is easy to be bombed, and those who do not play the map, and can position themselves better---sometimes. There is also prob a disconnect between those who play prime time busy campaigns, and those who play when its is only 2 bars.

On my magic alts, it feels like I HAVE to take the impen star and wear impen--last few patches I wore 3 to 4 well fitted 6 L 1/H. Now I am in 4 H / 3 L. I also use quick cloak for evasion sometimes. But I play pop locked campaigns where people will solo bomb you when you are not even near a keep or resource lol--they will stalk you for the opportunity lol.

I am not sure what the solution is. I used Mechanical Aquity for a few months last year and it was good, but the downtime could be tedious. I think unfortuantely the set needs to be adjusted for the current crit system maybe.