Vateshran 2h should be toned down

MrDenimChicken

Vateshran 2h is allowing for many one shot builds right now. It provides too much additional burst. Now we have several stam builds that are capable of doing the burst equivalent of a gankblade with caluurion's, except these stam builds can do it out of stealth while they have 30k health and 26k+ resistances.

WrathOfInnos

Am I missing something? The Vateshran 2h has a tooltip that is 23% of Caluurion, and requires you to heavy attack before the proc (not ideal for a burst combo). The weapon damage given is also underwhelming, stacking up to 190 max (compare that to something like the Master bow, giving a constant 330), which is all removed when you use the proc. I can’t say I’ve ever tried the set because it looks terrible.

Edit: Something is wrong with the tooltip, apparently it's closer to 60% of Caluurion in reality. And as the posts below me pointed out, it does not require a heavy attack only a medium attack. Seems like it is not working as intended.

YandereGirlfriend

I would like to see the damage stripped from this set and instead allow its Weapon Damage to scale higher.

Master's Staff provides 600 Spell Damage but only for 4 seconds (and, unlike Vateshran, it's tied to a sub-par skill, but that's another matter) so somewhere in the region of 350-400 for the Vateshran 2H would be appropriate.

I would also love to see the Master's Staff duration extended to something like 8-10 seconds to allow it to fit better into a PvE rotation OR to buff Destructive Clench to allow it to be used as a viable spammable.

WrathOfInnos

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Am I missing something? The Vateshran 2h has a tooltip that is 23% of Caluurion, and requires you to heavy attack before the proc (not ideal for a burst combo). The weapon damage given is also underwhelming, stacking up to 190 max (compare that to something like the Master bow, giving a constant 330), which is all removed when you use the proc. I can’t say I’ve ever tried the set because it looks terrible.

[Quoted post removed]

Then answer my original question, what am I missing? Is it not working as intended? [snip]

[Removed response to removed post]

JobooAGS

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Am I missing something? The Vateshran 2h has a tooltip that is 23% of Caluurion, and requires you to heavy attack before the proc (not ideal for a burst combo). The weapon damage given is also underwhelming, stacking up to 190 max (compare that to something like the Master bow, giving a constant 330), which is all removed when you use the proc. I can’t say I’ve ever tried the set because it looks terrible.

[Quoted post removed]

Then answer my original question, what am I missing? Is it not working as intended? [snip]

[Removed response to removed post]

it procs off of medium attacks for one, just barely longer than a light attack, or a light attack in lag and it procs.

Arbiter7070

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Am I missing something? The Vateshran 2h has a tooltip that is 23% of Caluurion, and requires you to heavy attack before the proc (not ideal for a burst combo). The weapon damage given is also underwhelming, stacking up to 190 max (compare that to something like the Master bow, giving a constant 330), which is all removed when you use the proc. I can’t say I’ve ever tried the set because it looks terrible.

It's free damage and it's super easy to proc. You don't even need a fully charged heavy attack. On my stamsorc I can streak in, D-swing medium attack weave (procs vate two hander) with a crystal weapon and then dawnbreaker and it deletes most people. If you don't think the vate two-hander has been a problem in PVP you clearly haven't pvp'ed enough against good players or in high mmr bg's.

WreckfulAbandon

It should require a full heavy attack for the proc to fire. How they have kept it this way for so long, requiring a barely charged heavy to fire is just crazy to me. Vate 2h is absolute must use on any DD build using 2h. Probably any build using 2h period.

WrathOfInnos

@JobooAGS Interesting thanks for the info. And I just checked in game, the proc damage does seem to be higher than the tooltip implies relative to Caluurions, maybe a scaling bug introduced in the latest patch? I don’t think I’ve been killed by this set yet, but admittedly I only do BG’s occasionally when I need transmutes. Might try equipping it next time

clearly

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

clearly wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

clearly wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Am I missing something? The Vateshran 2h has a tooltip that is 23% of Caluurion, and requires you to heavy attack before the proc (not ideal for a burst combo). The weapon damage given is also underwhelming, stacking up to 190 max (compare that to something like the Master bow, giving a constant 330), which is all removed when you use the proc. I can’t say I’ve ever tried the set because it looks terrible.

can you please never commentate again in anything related to pvp, thanks

Because your comments are so informative and constructive?

better than spreading misinformation and making uneducated guesses without even trying to understand pvp

Then answer my original question, what am I missing? Is it not working as intended? How is quoting the exact numbers from the tooltip “spreading misinformation”?

1. it procs off medium attacks
2. heavy attacks are good for burst builds (e.g stamsorc with dw heavy + crystal + spin or older builds with sergeant etc)
3. vate 2h scales at 1.49 of your weapon damage (almost an ultimate), while caluurion scales at 2.16. so around 68%
4. the 190 weapon damage could be removed and it would still be top tier
5. its been one of best pvp sets since its release, it was on literally every stambuild for months

WrathOfInnos

clearly wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

clearly wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

clearly wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Am I missing something? The Vateshran 2h has a tooltip that is 23% of Caluurion, and requires you to heavy attack before the proc (not ideal for a burst combo). The weapon damage given is also underwhelming, stacking up to 190 max (compare that to something like the Master bow, giving a constant 330), which is all removed when you use the proc. I can’t say I’ve ever tried the set because it looks terrible.

can you please never commentate again in anything related to pvp, thanks

Because your comments are so informative and constructive?

better than spreading misinformation and making uneducated guesses without even trying to understand pvp

Then answer my original question, what am I missing? Is it not working as intended? How is quoting the exact numbers from the tooltip “spreading misinformation”?

1. it procs off medium attacks
2. heavy attacks are good for burst builds (e.g stamsorc with dw heavy + crystal + spin or older builds with sergeant etc)
3. vate 2h scales at 1.49 of your weapon damage (almost an ultimate), while caluurion scales at 2.16. so around 68%
4. the 190 weapon damage could be removed and it would still be top tier
5. its been one of best pvp sets since its release, it was on literally every stambuild for months

Good info. I still disagree with point 2 if we're talking fully charged heavy attacks during a burst window. Forgive me for being skeptical about a PVP "nerf this proc set" thread that gave zero information in the original post, this game would be very different if we took all of those as fact. As for trusting tooltips to be accurate, I should really know better.

Alucardo

I don't really see the whole excitement over this set. Whenever I see it in my tooltip it's like 2k damage. Nothing to write home about if you ask me.

taugrim

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I would like to see the damage stripped from this set and instead allow its Weapon Damage to scale higher.

Master's Staff provides 600 Spell Damage but only for 4 seconds (and, unlike Vateshran, it's tied to a sub-par skill, but that's another matter) so somewhere in the region of 350-400 for the Vateshran 2H would be appropriate.

No, that's would be hideously imbalanced. That would be better than every single 5-pc bonus in the game, because there's no tradeoff (e.g. NMA with 5% increased cost, or limited uptime for other sets).

The problem with Vateshran as it's currently designed is it's braindead easy to get to max stacks of the WD buff. You just use your abilities. There is no thought process, no tradeoff decision. You can use weapon abilities, and when you want to blow them up, use a medium attack.

Whereas with your example of The Master's Staff, it's tied to 1 ability that has limitations: one morph has 10-sec DoT effect so casting it every 4 secs clips over half of the DoT, and the other morph has effects that you may not want to trigger (e.g. you may not want to knockback a player, or proc the AoE).

taugrim

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Good info. I still disagree with point 2 if we're talking fully charged heavy attacks during a burst window. Forgive me for being skeptical about a PVP "nerf this proc set" thread that gave zero information in the original post, this game would be very different if we took all of those as fact. As for trusting tooltips to be accurate, I should really know better.

Arbiter already hit the nail on the head.

In high/higher MMR BGs, many stam builds use Vateshran. It's imbalanced. You get WD and you have a proc-burst on top of it.

YandereGirlfriend

taugrim wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I would like to see the damage stripped from this set and instead allow its Weapon Damage to scale higher.

Master's Staff provides 600 Spell Damage but only for 4 seconds (and, unlike Vateshran, it's tied to a sub-par skill, but that's another matter) so somewhere in the region of 350-400 for the Vateshran 2H would be appropriate.

Whereas with your example of The Master's Staff, it's tied to 1 ability that has limitations: one morph has 10-sec DoT effect so casting it every 4 secs clips over half of the DoT, and the other morph has effects that you may not want to trigger (e.g. you may not want to knockback a player, or proc the AoE).

That's not an example of good balancing it's an example of poor skill design.

Virtually nobody is happy with the state of Destructive Reach/Clench ever since Master's Destro lost its ability to convert it into a spammable, as the former is a weak DoT that isn't buffed by any meaningful passives and the latter is a bizarre Frankenstein of a skill (e.g. damage too weak to be used as a spammable and utility too niche or simply too questionable to be regularly used) that satisfies no one. A complete redesign of these skills is in order.

The Spell Damage value could be adjusted to take into account an increased duration but overall people are far too terrified of anything that might shake up their own precious (and stale) vision of the meta.

For the Vate 2H, if you strip out the proc damage that is a perfectly acceptable amount of Weapon Damage. What's your alternative balancing - strip away the damage and keep it at 190 Weapon Damage? That would be laughable and the set would never be used. You could do 300 but that's the absolute floor unless your true motive is simply to dumpster the set because you're tired of seeing it in your recaps. I hate proc damage as much as the next player but you have to give players an actual reason to use the set and 190 Weapon Damage doesn't accomplish that.

karthrag_inak

Yes, let us encourage ZOS to gimp more gear for PVP. Because PVP is all that matters, and the only thing people care about is PVP.

Kaysha

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Yes, let us encourage ZOS to gimp more gear for PVP. Because PVP is all that matters, and the only thing people care about is PVP.

I would never use Vate 2H in PvE...

taugrim

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

For the Vate 2H, if you strip out the proc damage that is a perfectly acceptable amount of Weapon Damage. What's your alternative balancing - strip away the damage and keep it at 190 Weapon Damage? That would be laughable and the set would never be used.

Why are you getting bent out of shape out of a hypothetical that you're making up that I never said?

Lughlongarm

The numbers of this set are fine.

Best way to adjust this set is probably make the damage a dot.

There was a huge patch back in the days for proc sets , giving any proc set a counter. So many burst proc sets became dots, of burst sets got a delay animation, projectile flying speed etc...

Issue with this set in that the damage is tied to another source of damage(heavy attack) which makes this proc especially dangerous and unavoidable(unless you avoid the HA altogether).

The changes to proc scaling with WD also gave this set a nice internal synergy that this set can basically buff itself.
Making it a dot(like 6 sec duration dot) will probably be enough to tone down this set's effectiveness without destroying it.

xylena_lazarow

Lughlongarm wrote: »

The numbers of this set are fine

Probably also fine if it required a fully-charged heavy like every other heavy attack proc set.

Lughlongarm

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

The numbers of this set are fine

Probably also fine if it required a fully-charged heavy like every other heavy attack proc set.

Ya, that will probably work as well.

MrDenimChicken

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Am I missing something? The Vateshran 2h has a tooltip that is 23% of Caluurion, and requires you to heavy attack before the proc (not ideal for a burst combo). The weapon damage given is also underwhelming, stacking up to 190 max (compare that to something like the Master bow, giving a constant 330), which is all removed when you use the proc. I can’t say I’ve ever tried the set because it looks terrible.

Edit: Something is wrong with the tooltip, apparently it's closer to 60% of Caluurion in reality. And as the posts below me pointed out, it does not require a heavy attack only a medium attack. Seems like it is not working as intended.

I'm not saying Vateshran does as much dmg as caluurion's. That would be kinda crazy cause its just 1 item and not a 5 piece set. What I'm saying is that the additional burst that Vateshran combines, in combination with things stam classes already have (crystal weapon, blastbones, sub assault) is too high. The extra weapon dmg isn't a big deal. The proc tho, man. Stam sorcs pumping out vateshran + crystal weapon + another proc is just too much dmg in one second.

MrDenimChicken

Alucardo wrote: »

I don't really see the whole excitement over this set. Whenever I see it in my tooltip it's like 2k damage. Nothing to write home about if you ask me.

That's surprising. I run 26k-28k armor on my stamsorc and it hits me consistently for 4-5-6k

MrMazurski

Agree, hit so hard. No caompared with others Arena weapon. Its must have for pvp stam builds.

MrDenimChicken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

I don't really see the whole excitement over this set. Whenever I see it in my tooltip it's like 2k damage. Nothing to write home about if you ask me.

That's surprising. I run 26k-28k armor on my stamsorc and it hits me consistently for 4-5-6k

Agree, dmg are to strong. 2k? no way. even with pariah enemy finish me for like 3k dmg

YandereGirlfriend

taugrim wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

For the Vate 2H, if you strip out the proc damage that is a perfectly acceptable amount of Weapon Damage. What's your alternative balancing - strip away the damage and keep it at 190 Weapon Damage? That would be laughable and the set would never be used.

Why are you getting bent out of shape out of a hypothetical that you're making up that I never said?

I asked you, if you stripped away the damage component from the Vate 2H, what you believe would be an appropriate amount of Weapon Damage attach to the set.

You were clearly unhappy with my original proposed amount so I am curious about what your value would be instead.

Andre_Noir

The last thing 2H needs at all is a burst damage. Also the whole mechanic of this set is *** - just compare it with sets like Kjalnar or Galreion's revenge

WrathOfInnos

MrDenimChicken wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Am I missing something? The Vateshran 2h has a tooltip that is 23% of Caluurion, and requires you to heavy attack before the proc (not ideal for a burst combo). The weapon damage given is also underwhelming, stacking up to 190 max (compare that to something like the Master bow, giving a constant 330), which is all removed when you use the proc. I can’t say I’ve ever tried the set because it looks terrible.

Edit: Something is wrong with the tooltip, apparently it's closer to 60% of Caluurion in reality. And as the posts below me pointed out, it does not require a heavy attack only a medium attack. Seems like it is not working as intended.

I'm not saying Vateshran does as much dmg as caluurion's. That would be kinda crazy cause its just 1 item and not a 5 piece set. What I'm saying is that the additional burst that Vateshran combines, in combination with things stam classes already have (crystal weapon, blastbones, sub assault) is too high. The extra weapon dmg isn't a big deal. The proc tho, man. Stam sorcs pumping out vateshran + crystal weapon + another proc is just too much dmg in one second.

Yeah, I won't comment on whether the current damage burst is balanced or too high. I will say that in general these types of 2 piece weapon sets are balanced to be equal to a 5 piece set. This makes sense because many builds have to choose between a 2pc set or completing a 5pc, and making them similar in effect increases build diversity. If either option were significantly ahead, then the other would die off pretty quickly in competitive builds.

GetAgrippa

Right now Vat 2H is omnipresent on stam toons in bgs. And lately, I'm seeing a ton of stamsorcs using vat2h, db, spin2win combo to delete people. It's especially oppressive to play against for melee mag toons. On Ps4NA at least, I'd wager that three out of four stam toons are running it in bgs. It is making life on my magdk absolutely miserable. I've tried Pariah too, and I still got hit for a 5k Vat2h proc. Shrug. What am I to do. For now I'll stop playing pvp until there's some kind of solution implemented.

Alucardo

MrDenimChicken wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

I don't really see the whole excitement over this set. Whenever I see it in my tooltip it's like 2k damage. Nothing to write home about if you ask me.

That's surprising. I run 26k-28k armor on my stamsorc and it hits me consistently for 4-5-6k

Yeah gankers will hit me with it that hard. Fully buffed I'm at around 40k resistances though, so I guess that helps.

NoSoup

But Shouldn't the vateshran weapons be the most powerful weapons in the game, more powerful than any mythic item, 2 piece monster set or trial set?

Vateshran and VMA are the only content you can't be carried through (sub illegally sharing your account) so it only makes sense the rewards outweigh any other???

vesselwiththepestle

Maybe it's mostly a certain setup which makes Vateshran 2h so strong, including back baring it. Another issue could be the lack of other options / every stamina build having to slot 2h/momentum anyway.

Bashev

The explosion should be triggered only after a fully charged heavy attack and not by a medium attack. Otherwise the set is ok.