I am gonna say it, shadowy disguise needs to go if all this crit damage is staying.

xeNNNNN

EDIT PLEASE READ: As much of a discussion this is about shadowy disguise it is also about the general damage in PvP as well which includes crit damage and burst potential especially now. Please note the "IF" in the name, there is a second half to this discussion, please dont just focus on one half of the discussion. I recognise people are easily frustrated. Further, if this generates more discussion on whether or not damage is now too high in PvP then great I am all for it even if the original purpose of the thread isn't really focused on at that point. At least if nothing else the thread will of been somewhat productive.

I am also not saying shadow disguise's stealth should be removed.

Hear me out; I am a nightblade main (mostly mag) I love the fact I can guarantee a crit on my bombs and can do the same on my stamblade just y'know without the bomb, if stambomb worked i'd laugh pretty hard, anyway the reality is the damage is just too high right now so to my reckoning something needs to change.

Either the penn and crit damage gets lowered or shadowy disguise takes a hit, because as it stands right now stamblades are just generally broken in the current state of the game. I would be upset if it went but I dont really see any alternative for any balance to be maintained. The sheer amount of burst that can be done without a guaranteed crit is already too high as it is but with the way shadowy disguise works its just.....yeah. Not pleasant. I am rational enough to recognise when something is broken even with my favourite class. Even if I enjoy using it.

Either Crit damage needs scaling back or shadowy disguise needs changing. Which ever way ZoS does it something needs to change.

P.s yes yes I know the whole "stop asking for nerfs" I dont like it either, but we can't have everything buffed into the sky either because it just becomes ridiculous.

WrathOfInnos

How much crit damage do these builds have? How much did they have the last time this was not ridiculous? And how much crit resistance is the typical victim running?

xeNNNNN

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

How much crit damage do these builds have? How much did they have the last time this was not ridiculous? And how much crit resistance is the typical victim running?

Most of the time? With shadow + fighting finesse and khajit passives and something like R.A.T you can get almost 50%. Most dont need to run pen as most of them are fighting from stealth and even if you run detect pots or mage light it isn't really going to matter.

On top of all the penn people are building this patch (20k+) it effectively means that crit resistance is pretty pointless in that circumstance. Yeah it will help but not enough. Crit resistance also shouldn't be buffed as it will make things worse across the board.

Joy_Division

I'm not even a NB and I'm going to say no. Guaranteeing a critical hit is pretty standard effect for fantasy games and if we are even going to pretend that there is any sort of class identity, it is something that a Nightblade should be able to do.

The ability itself is fine. Besides, How do you plan on nerfing it? It gives a crit or it doesn't. Moreover, on any build that has crit, the ability itself is often wasted and has no effect. In short, it's fine.

What may need to be investigated is the sheer amount of damage that is out there, that is what makes the NB ability attractive (not necessarily the ability itself). It's hard for me to judge this quite yet as quite frankly I am sick of having played the past 2+ years with tanky and procy builds that didn't die. It's kind of refreshing to use damage abilities and see health bars move.

If it does turn out that things need to get adjusted, I ask you to step back and learn a little from history, We have 7 years of ESO development and patch notes before us, most of which has led to frustrations about gameplay, balance, class identity/effectiveness, etc., and yet here you are, at the very perception of something that might be a problems and your knee-jerk reaction is something has to get nerfed. No, it doesn't. Stop nerfing my classes, my abilities, and taking away my class features and I will do just fine against your cloaking nightblade that can crit me.

WrathOfInnos

Yeah, I’m just curious what changed. So it sounds like:

- Khajiit 12%
- Shadow 18% (7 divines?)
- Minor Force 10%
- Fighting Finesse 10%
- Nightblade Passive 10%
- Holding bow proc at 5 stacks 10%

So that’s 70% on top of the base 50% crit damage. That does sound like a lot, but looking back a few months, IIRC it was:

- Khajiit 10%
- Shadow 17% (maybe 19%?)
- Minor Force 10%
- Elfborn 23% (assuming 72 points)
- Nightblade passive 10%

Total 70%.

So what’s different now? Are people just running less Impen still from the Malacath no-crit meta? Are bombers relying on backstabber? Or has this been a problem for years?

Penetration shouldn’t have any effect on crit resistance.

YandereGirlfriend

Little-known fact but the guaranteed Critical Strike from Stealth only applies to your first tick of damage, it does not guarantee a Critical Strike on every tick based upon your first ability use from Stealth.

So if your first ability use from Stealth is an AoE attack, only the first target struck will have the automatic Critical Strike - the rest will have their own dice rolls unless you are also using a set like Acuity to force subsequent Critical Strikes.

This is how the mechanic works at least as of a few patches ago. Perhaps it changed in the intervening time but I doubt it.

Ragnaroek93

[snip] Nb doesn't have any counters to block, healing and dodge, has a weak (and even buggy) defense, doesn't have any dot damage, has a cast time/min travel time on it's burst skills and doesn't bring anything good to a group. Even for ganking sorc is better at this point. I don't see the point of the class anymore.

Stamcros running around like demigods, sorcs being almost untouchable with BoL and people being immortal by abusing Undertaker aren't any issues but Nb is somehow. I don't get your "I don't like nerfs but we can't buff everything to the sky" comment either because most classes are really awful and a lot weaker than 2-3 years before.

I don't even use shadowy disguise (using the other morph which got nerfed despite all the pts feedback for whatever reason). In fact I barely play this game anymore, mainly because of their class reworks 2 years ago which took away the fun from the game. People on the forums always respawn in the forums after dieing to whatever and complain because they somehow think that dieing in PvP is unintended (and when I look at stamcro/den or Undertaker I kinda feel like the devs don't want people to die in PvP either)...

[edited for baiting]

xeNNNNN

Its important to note I am saying IF the damage overall in the game stays where it is, I am not saying nerf it no matter what.

xeNNNNN

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yeah, I’m just curious what changed. So it sounds like:

- Khajiit 12%
- Shadow 18% (7 divines?)
- Minor Force 10%
- Fighting Finesse 10%
- Nightblade Passive 10%
- Holding bow proc at 5 stacks 10%

So that’s 70% on top of the base 50% crit damage. That does sound like a lot, but looking back a few months, IIRC it was:

- Khajiit 10%
- Shadow 17% (maybe 19%?)
- Minor Force 10%
- Elfborn 23% (assuming 72 points)
- Nightblade passive 10%

Total 70%.

So what’s different now? Are people just running less Impen still from the Malacath no-crit meta? Are bombers relying on backstabber? Or has this been a problem for years?

Penetration shouldn’t have any effect on crit resistance.

I didn't correlate pen with crit resistance, the general thrust with mentioning penn was that when you have that much burst, it wont really matter how much resistance to crit you have because any mitigation behind that is going to be half due to the amount of pen available.

Its my understanding that crit resistance is first in the calculation right? then penetration after that to determine how much armor is bypassed?

Also bombers dont need backstabber but it does help seeing as you're almost always flanking half of your opponents when bombing. Its worth remembering for everyone that backstabber grants 15% at 50 points. Most have also stacked up on impen due to how much damage there is this patch and its really still not enough unless you're a warden or necro I guess.

xeNNNNN

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm not even a NB and I'm going to say no. Guaranteeing a critical hit is pretty standard effect for fantasy games and if we are even going to pretend that there is any sort of class identity, it is something that a Nightblade should be able to do.

The ability itself is fine. Besides, How do you plan on nerfing it? It gives a crit or it doesn't. Moreover, on any build that has crit, the ability itself is often wasted and has no effect. In short, it's fine.

What may need to be investigated is the sheer amount of damage that is out there, that is what makes the NB ability attractive (not necessarily the ability itself). It's hard for me to judge this quite yet as quite frankly I am sick of having played the past 2+ years with tanky and procy builds that didn't die. It's kind of refreshing to use damage abilities and see health bars move.

If it does turn out that things need to get adjusted, I ask you to step back and learn a little from history, We have 7 years of ESO development and patch notes before us, most of which has led to frustrations about gameplay, balance, class identity/effectiveness, etc., and yet here you are, at the very perception of something that might be a problems and your knee-jerk reaction is something has to get nerfed. No, it doesn't. Stop nerfing my classes, my abilities, and taking away my class features and I will do just fine against your cloaking nightblade that can crit me.

Fair enough, something does need to change though. I didn't say it HAD to get nerfed, I said something needs to go and it should be considered at the very least if they outright refuse to change how high damage is currently.

Middle ground; I can happily accept that my perception currently may have been as a result of damage generally being too high this patch. The thing that is urked me about my own class though is that people crutch on bonus damage from stealth is with crit as well even though there are quite a few other ways to play nightblade. I played bruiser stamblade (no cloak) for a full year it was great fun.

xeNNNNN

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

[snip] Nb doesn't have any counters to block, healing and dodge, has a weak (and even buggy) defense, doesn't have any dot damage, has a cast time/min travel time on it's burst skills and doesn't bring anything good to a group. Even for ganking sorc is better at this point. I don't see the point of the class anymore.

Stamcros running around like demigods, sorcs being almost untouchable with BoL and people being immortal by abusing Undertaker aren't any issues but Nb is somehow. I don't get your "I don't like nerfs but we can't buff everything to the sky" comment either because most classes are really awful and a lot weaker than 2-3 years before.

I don't even use shadowy disguise (using the other morph which got nerfed despite all the pts feedback for whatever reason). In fact I barely play this game anymore, mainly because of their class reworks 2 years ago which took away the fun from the game. People on the forums always respawn in the forums after dieing to whatever and complain because they somehow think that dieing in PvP is unintended (and when I look at stamcro/den or Undertaker I kinda feel like the devs don't want people to die in PvP either)...

This isn't even a thread for me just coming here to complain for the sake of it, I've had an issue with the skill for years its just FoA/Blackwood essentially just broke me on the topic. I love shadowy disguise but I can't help but feel like its part of the problem (definitely not all of it), if I really was here complaining just for the sake of it, I would of complained about stealth in general. But I wont because stealth is fine. Its not the stealth aspect that is the problem for me. Its the guaranteed burst potential from stealth which also gets buffed by other passives on top of that.

What makes it worse is that due to server desyncs, overall lag and frustrating slow detection incap/harvest basically instantly casts for the person on the receiving end because by the time it even shows for them the animation has already played and the full damage of the incap/harvest has already hit.

Tbh there is something worse going right atm which is ... possibly even more infuriating and that would be ele-weapon silver bolts combo.

I think the other combo is crystal weapon/ele weapon for stamsorc but at least with stamsorc I can fight them assuming I even see them.

xeNNNNN

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Little-known fact but the guaranteed Critical Strike from Stealth only applies to your first tick of damage, it does not guarantee a Critical Strike on every tick based upon your first ability use from Stealth.

So if your first ability use from Stealth is an AoE attack, only the first target struck will have the automatic Critical Strike - the rest will have their own dice rolls unless you are also using a set like Acuity to force subsequent Critical Strikes.

This is how the mechanic works at least as of a few patches ago. Perhaps it changed in the intervening time but I doubt it.

Yes, this is more of an issue of heavies from stealth and incap/harvest from stealth. Ele weapon also but the ele-weapon builds are more a hmm "one trick" build kind of thing.

Then there is how it effects concealed + suprise attack and so forth.

DrSlaughtr

There are plenty ways classes need to be balanced but this isn't one of them. First off if you're a bomber you're running mechanical acuity anyway.

If you're a stamblade it only affects that first hit out if stealth (and it didn't always work). So if you ambush in before your incap, only ambush crits.

xeNNNNN

TheEndBringer wrote: »

There are plenty ways classes need to be balanced but this isn't one of them. First off if you're a bomber you're running mechanical acuity anyway.

If you're a stamblade it only affects that first hit out if stealth (and it didn't always work). So if you ambush in before your incap, only ambush crits.

True but (at least I dont think) anyone ever ambushes from stealth unless its to help another player or something. 9/10 times shadowy diguise is popped for the following; Snipe, Harvest, Incap, Suprise attack, concealed weapon, ele weapon, tether and in some cases wrecking blow.

Raeyleigh

Imho this is more an issue with the reduction of impen and a simultaneous buff to crit damage than shadowy disguise itself.

In the past with 7 impen and some cp you could reach 3400 crit resistance and most people sat somewhere around 3000.
Right now with 7 impen, cp and base crit resistance you can reach 2869 at most.
But what really makes it bad is that unlike in the past now stacking impen comes at an incredible opportunity cost. Wellfitted, sturdy and reinforced compete with impen now, several objectivly better cp stars compete with the impen star now. And to top it off all crit resistance is wasted against anyone wearing malacath, and that is still a lot of players.

At the same time nb crit damage went through the roof. An extra 10% from spectral bow and 15% from backstabber, which only nb can fully utilize. So the problem is for the most part nb specific.

Playing against good nb atm is like russian roulette, eventually they will get several crits in a row and youre dead from full instantly, unless ofc you build ridicliously tanky. And that is sadly preferable to getting one shot without counterplay.
My nb ganker can (depending on resistances ofc) oneshot people with 30-35k hp at the upper end. And that is without balorghs.
After seeing some recent death recaps by bombblades i came to the conclusion that you need 35-40k hp to be somewhat safe from gankers. Nobody likes to get oneshot without feasible counterplay, when damage skyrockets people will just built tankier than before.

Scallan

Stop asking for nerfs.

divnyi

All the bombers run Acuity anyway. Won't change a thing.

Actually what I would want to see is getting crit% builds back in PvP. Today you only stack critdmg and find a way to cheat out guaranteed crit.

The PvP crit balance is weird. We have 20% build in critdmg resistance and we have low critrate because they needed that to balance PvE damage. Ultimately it means if you don't stack everything into crit% and critdmg, you aren't doing much, and if you do stack, you are squishy and your damage doesn't compensate, because it is DPS and just stacking critdmg + acuity does more burst and gets you more kills.

Nobody sees basic crit% any impactful in regular build because that's just +30% damage due to build-in critresist. That's why ppl run malacath in medium armor, because even without procs and even nerfed it yields more damage than basic crits. This is sad, and something should be done.

OP is right, nerfing guaranteed unconditional crit sources might open the possibility to remove 20% critresist entirely. Cloak can give +25% crit chance, for example.

ThePianist

xeNNNNN wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yeah, I’m just curious what changed. So it sounds like:

- Khajiit 12%
- Shadow 18% (7 divines?)
- Minor Force 10%
- Fighting Finesse 10%
- Nightblade Passive 10%
- Holding bow proc at 5 stacks 10%

So that’s 70% on top of the base 50% crit damage. That does sound like a lot, but looking back a few months, IIRC it was:

- Khajiit 10%
- Shadow 17% (maybe 19%?)
- Minor Force 10%
- Elfborn 23% (assuming 72 points)
- Nightblade passive 10%

Total 70%.

So what’s different now? Are people just running less Impen still from the Malacath no-crit meta? Are bombers relying on backstabber? Or has this been a problem for years?

Penetration shouldn’t have any effect on crit resistance.

I didn't correlate pen with crit resistance, the general thrust with mentioning penn was that when you have that much burst, it wont really matter how much resistance to crit you have because any mitigation behind that is going to be half due to the amount of pen available.

Its my understanding that crit resistance is first in the calculation right? then penetration after that to determine how much armor is bypassed?

Also bombers dont need backstabber but it does help seeing as you're almost always flanking half of your opponents when bombing. Its worth remembering for everyone that backstabber grants 15% at 50 points. Most have also stacked up on impen due to how much damage there is this patch and its really still not enough unless you're a warden or necro I guess.

I have to disagree with how penetration works this patch. There is something wrong with weapon damage and penetration. You could literally have 0 or 700 penetration and still be able to do decent damage. If your physical penetration goes over your weapon damage, you will hit like a wet noodle against all targets. I was running the new Heartland set with Spriggans, 14k pen, 4500 weapon damage on a stamden. The stats look good but I was hitting like a wet noodle. So I took off heartland, and put on new moon (with nirnhorned greatsword) instead, paired with Buffer of the Swift. I was sitting at 2k pen, 5k weapon damage and I was melting people.

Maybe it’s the 5 piece bug since blackwood pts. You have 30k resists but it is not really there. So here I come along with 0 penetration, line up Shalks+Dizzy swing+Dawnbreaker combo. Then there you are looking at your death recap scratching your head.

The sets that seems to have the 5 piece bug imo, is Eternal Vigor, Heartland, Pariah, Alessian, and some other sets.

If I have to keep unequipping and re equipping my sets everytime I die or load zones. Then I’ll just slap on fortified brass and shackle breaker. These two sets have withstood the buggiest of the buggiest patches. I was really excited to finally use Pariah on my annoying werewolf build, but it’s also affected by the 5 piece bug.

ResidentContrarian

Alternative:

Players can learn what the roll, block, and % mitigation mechanics do in the game.

They can also learn how to slot one ground AoE and use it on themselves when they feel an NB is nearby - always works.

When they do and bombers and NBs become less successful, they will drop in numbers or avoid them.

Killing NBs all the time keeps them away. Well, at least until they see you in a keep alone and 20+ people trying to kill you. Then they come out of stealth real fast then...

The_Lex

ThePianist wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yeah, I’m just curious what changed. So it sounds like:

- Khajiit 12%
- Shadow 18% (7 divines?)
- Minor Force 10%
- Fighting Finesse 10%
- Nightblade Passive 10%
- Holding bow proc at 5 stacks 10%

So that’s 70% on top of the base 50% crit damage. That does sound like a lot, but looking back a few months, IIRC it was:

- Khajiit 10%
- Shadow 17% (maybe 19%?)
- Minor Force 10%
- Elfborn 23% (assuming 72 points)
- Nightblade passive 10%

Total 70%.

So what’s different now? Are people just running less Impen still from the Malacath no-crit meta? Are bombers relying on backstabber? Or has this been a problem for years?

Penetration shouldn’t have any effect on crit resistance.

I didn't correlate pen with crit resistance, the general thrust with mentioning penn was that when you have that much burst, it wont really matter how much resistance to crit you have because any mitigation behind that is going to be half due to the amount of pen available.

Its my understanding that crit resistance is first in the calculation right? then penetration after that to determine how much armor is bypassed?

Also bombers dont need backstabber but it does help seeing as you're almost always flanking half of your opponents when bombing. Its worth remembering for everyone that backstabber grants 15% at 50 points. Most have also stacked up on impen due to how much damage there is this patch and its really still not enough unless you're a warden or necro I guess.

I have to disagree with how penetration works this patch. There is something wrong with weapon damage and penetration. You could literally have 0 or 700 penetration and still be able to do decent damage. If your physical penetration goes over your weapon damage, you will hit like a wet noodle against all targets. I was running the new Heartland set with Spriggans, 14k pen, 4500 weapon damage on a stamden. The stats look good but I was hitting like a wet noodle. So I took off heartland, and put on new moon (with nirnhorned greatsword) instead, paired with Buffer of the Swift. I was sitting at 2k pen, 5k weapon damage and I was melting people.

Maybe it’s the 5 piece bug since blackwood pts. You have 30k resists but it is not really there. So here I come along with 0 penetration, line up Shalks+Dizzy swing+Dawnbreaker combo. Then there you are looking at your death recap scratching your head.

The sets that seems to have the 5 piece bug imo, is Eternal Vigor, Heartland, Pariah, Alessian, and some other sets.

If I have to keep unequipping and re equipping my sets everytime I die or load zones. Then I’ll just slap on fortified brass and shackle breaker. These two sets have withstood the buggiest of the buggiest patches. I was really excited to finally use Pariah on my annoying werewolf build, but it’s also affected by the 5 piece bug.

I really think you're on to something. I tried two set-ups: Vamp3 (undeath passive)/Pariah/Temporal Guard (more mitigation); and Vamp 3/Fortified Brass/Temporal Guard. The former should be far tanker then the latter, and it probably is when it works properly, but that has not been my experience. I can't be bothered with constantly reequipping armor sets, so I may just keep running FB.

clearly

ThePianist wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yeah, I’m just curious what changed. So it sounds like:

- Khajiit 12%
- Shadow 18% (7 divines?)
- Minor Force 10%
- Fighting Finesse 10%
- Nightblade Passive 10%
- Holding bow proc at 5 stacks 10%

So that’s 70% on top of the base 50% crit damage. That does sound like a lot, but looking back a few months, IIRC it was:

- Khajiit 10%
- Shadow 17% (maybe 19%?)
- Minor Force 10%
- Elfborn 23% (assuming 72 points)
- Nightblade passive 10%

Total 70%.

So what’s different now? Are people just running less Impen still from the Malacath no-crit meta? Are bombers relying on backstabber? Or has this been a problem for years?

Penetration shouldn’t have any effect on crit resistance.

I didn't correlate pen with crit resistance, the general thrust with mentioning penn was that when you have that much burst, it wont really matter how much resistance to crit you have because any mitigation behind that is going to be half due to the amount of pen available.

Its my understanding that crit resistance is first in the calculation right? then penetration after that to determine how much armor is bypassed?

Also bombers dont need backstabber but it does help seeing as you're almost always flanking half of your opponents when bombing. Its worth remembering for everyone that backstabber grants 15% at 50 points. Most have also stacked up on impen due to how much damage there is this patch and its really still not enough unless you're a warden or necro I guess.

I have to disagree with how penetration works this patch. There is something wrong with weapon damage and penetration. You could literally have 0 or 700 penetration and still be able to do decent damage. If your physical penetration goes over your weapon damage, you will hit like a wet noodle against all targets. I was running the new Heartland set with Spriggans, 14k pen, 4500 weapon damage on a stamden. The stats look good but I was hitting like a wet noodle. So I took off heartland, and put on new moon (with nirnhorned greatsword) instead, paired with Buffer of the Swift. I was sitting at 2k pen, 5k weapon damage and I was melting people.

Maybe it’s the 5 piece bug since blackwood pts. You have 30k resists but it is not really there. So here I come along with 0 penetration, line up Shalks+Dizzy swing+Dawnbreaker combo. Then there you are looking at your death recap scratching your head.

The sets that seems to have the 5 piece bug imo, is Eternal Vigor, Heartland, Pariah, Alessian, and some other sets.

If I have to keep unequipping and re equipping my sets everytime I die or load zones. Then I’ll just slap on fortified brass and shackle breaker. These two sets have withstood the buggiest of the buggiest patches. I was really excited to finally use Pariah on my annoying werewolf build, but it’s also affected by the 5 piece bug.

tf did i just read. is this a troll post?

Dojohoda

Nightblades have not been buffed recently and they have been bombing since it was a thing. So keep looking.

Also the critical strike is not unconditional.

Cloak yourself in shadow to become invisible for 3 seconds. Your next direct damage attack used within 3 seconds will always be a Critical Strike.

That is one critical strike. If the crit continues it's because of a five piece set.

Lastly bomb deaths are occurring from the old standard ultimate dumps and synergies with harmony just like last year.

What's actually different?

Sephyr

Dojohoda wrote: »

Nightblades have not been buffed recently and they have been bombing since it was a thing. So keep looking.

Also the critical strike is not unconditional.

Cloak yourself in shadow to become invisible for 3 seconds. Your next direct damage attack used within 3 seconds will always be a Critical Strike.

That is one critical strike. If the crit continues it's because of a five piece set.

Lastly bomb deaths are occurring from the old standard ultimate dumps and synergies with harmony just like last year.

What's actually different?

The year.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings!

After further review, we have decided to lock this post from further comments. We would like to remind everyone that Flaming and Baiting are both violations of the Community Guidelines and are stated as follows:

• Flaming: It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.
  
• Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.
  
  With that being said, if there are any more questions regarding our community guidelines please feel free to review them here.
  
  Thank you for your understanding.
  
  -Sarah