Chance based leads are incredibly unfair

Grandchamp1989

Why should someone with good luck get a lead first try while others have to farm for weeks?

Leads should not be chance and RNG based. It shouldn't be a dice roll whether or not you get a lead now or in 3 months.

Instead of "Get chance of a lead from fishing" it should be "Fish 10 times to get said lead".

Anything else is just an unfair grind for some while others get it through no effort at all.

AlnilamE

If you think it would only be 10 fish, then you are very optimistic.

spartaxoxo

RNG is fair because it's the same odds for everyone. It may not be equal but it is fair.

Grandchamp1989

AlnilamE wrote: »

If you think it would only be 10 fish, then you are very optimistic.

even 50 fish

It isn't fair that someone stand with their fishing rod for 3 seconds and gets a lead and someone else has to fish 700 fish and not get it.

Andyhunter21

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Why should someone with good luck get a lead first try while others have to farm for weeks?

Leads should not be chance and RNG based. It shouldn't be a dice roll whether or not you get a lead now or in 3 months.

Instead of "Get chance of a lead from fishing" it should be "Fish 10 times to get said lead".

Anything else is just an unfair grind for some while others get it through no effort at all.

It is 100% fair. You probably want it to be something like do a vet trial.

Andyhunter21

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

If you think it would only be 10 fish, then you are very optimistic.

even 50 fish

It isn't fair that someone stand with their fishing rod for 3 seconds and gets a lead and someone else has to fish 700 fish and not get it.

You are literally playing an RNG based MMO. Whats dont you understand.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Yes, it's fair.

See, what people forget is that RNG applies to every individual roll.

A run of bad luck does not increase your odds on the next roll.

Ultimately, this system means that some people are going to get their drop on their very first roll, and others will be rolling hundreds of times.

In between these outliers, drops are also happening.

Don't blame other players for getting the leads first. They didn't ask for that luck, they just happened to hit it lucky.

I mean, just to give an example, is it unfair that I got all three of my Cyrodiil saltwater fish in a single fishing hole on one character? No, because we all have the same odds. Just in that case, the roll ended up being very high for me. My next character still hasn't caught the blue fish in that category after months of trying.

VaranisArano

Consider that the alternative to gear grinding RNG is transmutation - that is, a token system of sorts where the grind for the gear is replaced by the grind for the token.

RNG grinds are the lifeblood of MMOs. It's a time sink for players in a game genre that needs players consistently logging in and subscribing due to constant server upkeep costs. What we've seen time and again is that when ZOS makes their RNG more forgiving, they replace it with another grind.

You'll have the same problem with Leads. Could ZOS change the current RNG grind? Sure...but they intentionally designed that grind as a time sink for players. What will they replace it with? Another time sink for players.


On a human level, I understand the frustration of seeing someone else get good things while the RNG gods scowl at me. But I also understand that if I want to entirely avoid RNG and time-sink grinds that I really ought to find a different genre of game.

Tandor

RNG isn't just about time sinks, it's a part of the enjoyment of the game. When I fish I sometimes get a rare catch, and sometimes I don't. That makes it all the more worthwhile when I do land one, whereas it would be tedious beyond extreme if I knew that every 10th catch would be a rare one without exception.

Where people fall foul of RNG is when they take "grinding" to extreme and just focus on farming for some specific item until they get it rather than simply playing the game and appreciating the rare stuff when it does fall. RNG is the antithesis of the "I want it all and I want it now" approach that is so common in gaming these days and which if listened to by developers results in the dumbing down and trivialisation of games.

zelaminator

Seems fair to me.. Would be boring if they fixed it to a certain number imo

Grandchamp1989

Andyhunter21 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

If you think it would only be 10 fish, then you are very optimistic.

even 50 fish

It isn't fair that someone stand with their fishing rod for 3 seconds and gets a lead and someone else has to fish 700 fish and not get it.

You are literally playing an RNG based MMO. Whats dont you understand.

I know I am, that's the whole point of the thread.
I think it shouldn't be that way. What don't YOU understand?

Lady_Galadhiel

Well,at least a list of what leads exist and where to find them would be a nice to have in game.
I know there are lists online where what is but why do players have to bother with writing down the information when it simply could be added into the game.

VaranisArano

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Andyhunter21 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

If you think it would only be 10 fish, then you are very optimistic.

even 50 fish

It isn't fair that someone stand with their fishing rod for 3 seconds and gets a lead and someone else has to fish 700 fish and not get it.

You are literally playing an RNG based MMO. Whats dont you understand.

I know I am, that's the whole point of the thread.
I think it shouldn't be that way. What don't YOU understand?

Alright, I'll bite.

I don't understand how you intend to take RNG out of an MMO that's built on RNG.

I mean, RNG is hard baked into practically everything in ESO.

Take gear: while the RNG has gotten a little more forgiving with specific locations for specific item types, you'll still have a lot of chance involved. If I want a specific overland necklace, I'm hunting dolmen chests, and still dealing with a pool of rings and necklaces from two other sets.

Take crafting: the results of harvesting nodes are RNG-based, the results of refining are RNG-based, the results of improving can be RNG-based, the results of deconstruction are RNG-based, and the rewards for crafting writs are RNG-based.

So, uh, are we swapping to a token system for everything now?

Grandchamp1989

VaranisArano wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Andyhunter21 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

If you think it would only be 10 fish, then you are very optimistic.

even 50 fish

It isn't fair that someone stand with their fishing rod for 3 seconds and gets a lead and someone else has to fish 700 fish and not get it.

You are literally playing an RNG based MMO. Whats dont you understand.

I know I am, that's the whole point of the thread.
I think it shouldn't be that way. What don't YOU understand?

Alright, I'll bite.

I don't understand how you intend to take RNG out of an MMO that's built on RNG.

I mean, RNG is hard baked into practically everything in ESO.

Take gear: while the RNG has gotten a little more forgiving with specific locations for specific item types, you'll still have a lot of chance involved. If I want a specific overland necklace, I'm hunting dolmen chests, and still dealing with a pool of rings and necklaces from two other sets.

Take crafting: the results of harvesting nodes are RNG-based, the results of refining are RNG-based, the results of improving can be RNG-based, the results of deconstruction are RNG-based, and the rewards for crafting writs are RNG-based.

So, uh, are we swapping to a token system for everything now?

It isn't what I said though? I never said we're swapping every RNG aspect of the game.
I specificly said leads. Why are some people intentionally misreading the thread, just so they can built a strawman argument and argue with themselves?

The premise of the thread is super simple - when it comes to leads I think it's highly unfair one guy gets a lead in 2 seconds and another guy can farm 3 month for the same lead.

You mentioned overland gear - overland gear can be farmed by the entire community and bought through guild traders so you can easily get the piece you need. That pretty much destroys your argument right there.

In 4 man content and 12 man content you're allowed to trade gear with team mates so if one team mate is lucky but you aren't you can trade/buy that piece.

In lead farming you're completely reliant on your own blind luck for meta gear.

See the difference?
This is why I didn't compared it to the other RNG systems in the game and why it would be nice if people would argue the point I actually made, instead of reaching for strawmen.

If people think RNG leads are great, that's fine I respect that. I just don't hold the opinion.

redlink1979

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

(...) Instead of "Get chance of a lead from fishing" it should be "Fish 10 times to get said lead". (...)

Knowing how MMOs work, it would probably be at least "Fish 100 times to get said lead"

spartaxoxo wrote: »

RNG is fair because it's the same odds for everyone. It may not be equal but it is fair.

Rng karma: took me more than 60 runs of Darkshade Caverns II to get the mount lead on one server. On the other hand, took me 2 or 3 dozens of water nodes in Shadowfen to get the Tide-Glass Beads lead on 2 servers...

VaranisArano

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Andyhunter21 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

If you think it would only be 10 fish, then you are very optimistic.

even 50 fish

It isn't fair that someone stand with their fishing rod for 3 seconds and gets a lead and someone else has to fish 700 fish and not get it.

You are literally playing an RNG based MMO. Whats dont you understand.

I know I am, that's the whole point of the thread.
I think it shouldn't be that way. What don't YOU understand?

Alright, I'll bite.

I don't understand how you intend to take RNG out of an MMO that's built on RNG.

I mean, RNG is hard baked into practically everything in ESO.

Take gear: while the RNG has gotten a little more forgiving with specific locations for specific item types, you'll still have a lot of chance involved. If I want a specific overland necklace, I'm hunting dolmen chests, and still dealing with a pool of rings and necklaces from two other sets.

Take crafting: the results of harvesting nodes are RNG-based, the results of refining are RNG-based, the results of improving can be RNG-based, the results of deconstruction are RNG-based, and the rewards for crafting writs are RNG-based.

So, uh, are we swapping to a token system for everything now?

It isn't what I said though? I never said we're swapping every RNG aspect of the game.
I specificly said leads. Why are some people intentionally misreading the thread, just so they can built a strawman argument and argue with themselves?

The premise of the thread is super simple - when it comes to leads I think it's highly unfair one guy gets a lead in 2 seconds and another guy can farm 3 month for the same lead.

You mentioned overland gear - overland gear can be farmed by the entire community and bought through guild traders so you can easily get the piece you need. That pretty much destroys your argument right there.

In 4 man content and 12 man content you're allowed to trade gear with team mates so if one team mate is lucky but you aren't you can trade/buy that piece.

In lead farming you're completely reliant on your own blind luck for meta gear.

See the difference?
This is why I didn't compared it to the other RNG systems in the game and why it would be nice if people would argue the point I actually made, instead of reaching for strawmen.

If people think RNG leads are great, that's fine I respect that. I just don't hold the opinion.

I'm sorry, but when someone says "You are literally playing an RNG based MMO."

And you respond: "I know I am, that's the whole point of the thread. I think it shouldn't be that way."

I took the liberty of assuming that you were open to discussing what it would take to not be playing an RNG-based MMO anymore, as opposed to limiting discussion to just RNG leads.

If you wanted to limit the discussion purely to RNG leads, okay, but I hope you understand why I went the direction I did before you continue to accuse me of intentionally misreading.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me as though you don't mind the vast majority of RNG in ESO since you feel it's sufficiently forgiving due to buying items, farming in groups, token systems, or luck-enhancing items. You DO mind leads, because those are purely dependent on individual RNG with no way for you to make the grind easier or guarantee that you'll get what you want jn a reasonable amount of time.

FinrodMacBeorn

Yes, rng belongs to MMOs, but there are fair rngs and - not so fair ones.

For most situations, ESO just uses independent success/failure experiments. With a decent success probability, I deem this as fair. With, e.g., 10%, among 10000 people, about 1000 will succeed in the first try, about 6900 will have it after at most 10 tries, and only about 72 will need more than 25 tries.

25 tries seems to be acceptable, e.g. for dungeon runs, for bad luck, which hits you with a chance of less than 1%.

However, with a 1% chance, about 100 people will succeed immediately, about 4000 will have it after at most 50 tries, about 1340 will need more than 200 tries, and about 180 will need even 400 tries or more. Success/failure rngs are highly unfair with small success probabilities (the shadowfen disaster had at most 1% coupled with an extremely boring and conflict laden activity) in the sense, that the discrepancy between the effort required of the lucky ones and a not so small number of unlucky fellows is too large.

Dev: "But - if the success chance is increased, players spend less time in the game ..." Not really, if the rng system is modified accordingly. Extreme bad luck can be made much more unlikely keeping the average time a player spends with the activity remain unchanged. However, there is a price: extreme luck (i.e. succeeding in the 1st attempt) also becomes more unlikely. The lucky ones have to spend a bit more time to make the burden for the unlucky ones more tolerable.

freespirit

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

Well,at least a list of what leads exist and where to find them would be a nice to have in game.
I know there are lists online where what is but why do players have to bother with writing down the information when it simply could be added into the game.

Your signiture says you are on PC, if you use addons then "Display Leads" will provide you with a great list and so much more! 🙂

As for leads being less chance based I'm sorta on the fence with that one. If I take into account that I've been trying to get the safebox lead for the music box ever since Greymoor released with absolutely no luck whatsoever, well then I must admit some other mechanic to get leads would be nice.

I mean at this point if it was "open 5000 safeboxes" I would be like "Yes, that I can do!!" 🤣

jenwa72ab14_ESO

Torn on this. I know games with RNG that also put in guaranteed drops after x time and things like that.

We can say it is fair, but here is my argument against pure RNG.

A seller wants happy customers, so they keep playing and buying.
Making them unhappy because of RNG luck is dumb business.
You need to protect yourself so you keep them as happy as you can.

Abigail

Don't know about ESO specifically, but from conversations with a few developers, there have been MMOs that assigned an RNG modifier to players upon registering to play a game. These modifiers were not huge, but they had a tangible affect on a player's "good" or "bad" luck.

There used to be one decidedly PtW game that assigned RNG modifiers, with beg spenders receiving modifiers that made them less lucky. The notion was if people will spend to win, they will spend more to overcome bad luck. Certainly not a perfect world for whales.

Last example was a game where in-game GMs had the ability to assign favorable modifiers to influencers engaging in activities that brought people into the game or did things likely to keep them playing.

Again, don't know if ZOS does anything like this and I won't speculate.