Cyro Map gameplay is now dead

Thanos7895

The combination of buffs to attacks to stealth and Viscous Death has created a bombers paradise. Now, all we have is groups of stealth bombers while we siege. You couple this with the reduction in group number from 24 has made groups trying to play the map as was intended a very undesirable experience.

ZOS - I would suggest that you should probably act quickly to correct this unless you were intending to make Cyro the "New Battleground"

I for one do not enjoy battlegrounds gameplay and have chosen to not do battlegrounds and you have essentially converted Cyro to this...

I would also suggest that you re-examine who you are listening to for feedback since the people that have the great streams of gameplay are not necessarily your target customer despite what they are telling you

LarsS

I suggest you use flares and cc then no bomber can sneak in on you.

Sanctum74

Sounds like they are playing the map as intended as well. Cyrodill is a battleground and they purposely made proxy det and vd for that purpose. I agree the damage is too high, but it’s a reasonable expectation that you will experience pvp in a pvp zone.

Earthewen

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Sounds like they are playing the map as intended as well. Cyrodill is a battleground and they purposely made proxy det and vd for that purpose. I agree the damage is too high, but it’s a reasonable expectation that you will experience pvp in a pvp zone.

I think you are missing the point of the OP. Cyro is NOT battlegrounds. It was designed as a large group PvP. In fact, only just a couple of years ago it was designated from 8 to 24 players (as shown in the description in game which I and some others still remember). The switching to the small man happened not that long ago in the span of the game's life. That is a much more recent development. Battlegrounds were designed as the small man map for those people who were screaming about getting their small man zerged down in Cyro.

Let's get real here. There is PvP and then there is PvP. This game was advertised at it's launch to deliver 100's of players on screen at the same time. That promise has not been delivered on (at least not without a lot of problems). Those that enjoy large scale play with large, organized groups have been shoved off to the side as a "not viable" style of play in favor of those who prefer something else. One style of play has clearly been favored while the age of the 24-man groups in cyro has been sacrificed on the alter of "better performance" promises that have not materialized for most players.

Sanctum74

Earthewen wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Sounds like they are playing the map as intended as well. Cyrodill is a battleground and they purposely made proxy det and vd for that purpose. I agree the damage is too high, but it’s a reasonable expectation that you will experience pvp in a pvp zone.

I think you are missing the point of the OP. Cyro is NOT battlegrounds. It was designed as a large group PvP. In fact, only just a couple of years ago it was designated from 8 to 24 players (as shown in the description in game which I and some others still remember). The switching to the small man happened not that long ago in the span of the game's life. That is a much more recent development. Battlegrounds were designed as the small man map for those people who were screaming about getting their small man zerged down in Cyro.

Let's get real here. There is PvP and then there is PvP. This game was advertised at it's launch to deliver 100's of players on screen at the same time. That promise has not been delivered on (at least not without a lot of problems). Those that enjoy large scale play with large, organized groups have been shoved off to the side as a "not viable" style of play in favor of those who prefer something else. One style of play has clearly been favored while the age of the 24-man groups in cyro has been sacrificed on the alter of "better performance" promises that have not materialized for most players.

I get op’s point, I just don’t agree with saying bombers are not playing as intended when the set and skill was specifically designed to do just that.

Yes cyrodill is not “battlegrounds” but it is a battleground and always has been. Solo, small scale, ball groups, pvdoor groups, and zergs have been a part of cyro for the past 6 years I’ve been playing so that’s definitely nothing new.

Personally I have no interest in playing a bomber, but I think all play styles should be viable. With that being said I do agree with op about the damage. There was no reason for them to buff vd even more.

Minnesinger

Sounds like Cyro is finally balanced. There are pvdoor groups just up to grab keeps who do not even want have a fight. They might defend a keep with siege but generally speaking their aim was to control as many keeps as they could. Finally, there is a counter to that type of groups. Has been asked by many.

techyeshic

I don't see how bombing has broken up anything. It has made things worse to a degree it has gotten to where you don't want to teach anyone up in a more normal sized group as new players get you killed by VD, so those players go to whoever is wrangling full faction stacks as they just take the mass casulties and rez them as they stack everywhere and just overwhelm any smaller group as 2 factions tend to push the 3rd faction to their tri-keeps and it goes in a rotation. PvDoor is then a required tactic as each faction seems to have to commit their entire force in any one spot so the PvDoor is often times a way to pull the enemy off and force a response somewhere.

So I can agree that the game is not in a healthy spot right now. Details in what needs to change is questionable. State of performance makes anything pretty pointless either way.

heng14rwb17_ESO

BOMBER FOR LIFE !

Alucardo

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Sounds like they are playing the map as intended as well. Cyrodill is a battleground and they purposely made proxy det and vd for that purpose. I agree the damage is too high, but it’s a reasonable expectation that you will experience pvp in a pvp zone.

It used to be a lot more fun. You could run a medium armor build and play on the front line as long as you were careful. If you try to do that now you'll get blown to pieces, so now all you see is these god-tanks that don't seem to do much, snipers and spell casters in the back and gankers. The TTK is so short now that it's just not fun, unless you're one of the aforementioned gankers where your pleasure comes from deleting a player before they can even react.
Fights used to be fun, a true testament of skill. Now the victor goes to whoever has the most broken build and cheesy play style.
Honestly, even the IC patch was way more fun than this. I was running weird, completely non-meta builds and still having a blast. Try that now and you'll get decimated.
I'd sell my soul to Sithis to go back to those days.

Soul_Demon

Thanos7895 wrote: »

The combination of buffs to attacks to stealth and Viscous Death has created a bombers paradise. Now, all we have is groups of stealth bombers while we siege. You couple this with the reduction in group number from 24 has made groups trying to play the map as was intended a very undesirable experience.

ZOS - I would suggest that you should probably act quickly to correct this unless you were intending to make Cyro the "New Battleground"

I for one do not enjoy battlegrounds gameplay and have chosen to not do battlegrounds and you have essentially converted Cyro to this...

I would also suggest that you re-examine who you are listening to for feedback since the people that have the great streams of gameplay are not necessarily your target customer despite what they are telling you

Well said.....its not in my mind that difficult to see where this leads to. Reduction in pushing keeps and outposts leads pretty clearly to no one moving around map---and if they are not moving all those who make a living either farming new players at resources or bombing will basically be standing around waiting endlessly for something to happen......but slowly it tapers to nothing. The parasitic styles of play in cyro has need for players to keep playing the game as designed, otherwise the fringe of game-play cant exist. Surely they can see this leading to a dead end in play.....

Sanctum74

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Thanos7895 wrote: »

The combination of buffs to attacks to stealth and Viscous Death has created a bombers paradise. Now, all we have is groups of stealth bombers while we siege. You couple this with the reduction in group number from 24 has made groups trying to play the map as was intended a very undesirable experience.

ZOS - I would suggest that you should probably act quickly to correct this unless you were intending to make Cyro the "New Battleground"

I for one do not enjoy battlegrounds gameplay and have chosen to not do battlegrounds and you have essentially converted Cyro to this...

I would also suggest that you re-examine who you are listening to for feedback since the people that have the great streams of gameplay are not necessarily your target customer despite what they are telling you

Well said.....its not in my mind that difficult to see where this leads to. Reduction in pushing keeps and outposts leads pretty clearly to no one moving around map---and if they are not moving all those who make a living either farming new players at resources or bombing will basically be standing around waiting endlessly for something to happen......but slowly it tapers to nothing. The parasitic styles of play in cyro has need for players to keep playing the game as designed, otherwise the fringe of game-play cant exist. Surely they can see this leading to a dead end in play.....

But they are playing the game as designed too, or is pvdoor with no opposition considered the only way to play as designed now?

DTAmoral

As a ball grouper who has to daily deal with the bombers // its totally acceptable and fair play. I might curse and call you names for wiping us on a carpet of bombings BUT I think its totally acceptable.

Everyone complains ball groups are the cancer of PvP - so now bombers can kill ball groups // its fair.

Just because you zerg around and get VD'd because you're standing in 40 people doesnt mean they need to be nerfed.

Our ball group goes hours without wiping - flairs / mines / staying buffed up / not hyper stacking on rams

We do eventually wipe to bombers - everyone dies. Its how the game works. This bombing meta just weeds out the casual players from the players trying to improve.

If die to a bomb instead of crying about it - figure out why it killed you, and what can you change. There is 100% something you could have done diff. Even when our ball group wipes after hours of play to bombers theres always the "we should have done this" and we wouldnt of wiped.

Earthewen

DTAmoral wrote: »

As a ball grouper who has to daily deal with the bombers // its totally acceptable and fair play. I might curse and call you names for wiping us on a carpet of bombings BUT I think its totally acceptable.

Everyone complains ball groups are the cancer of PvP - so now bombers can kill ball groups // its fair.

Just because you zerg around and get VD'd because you're standing in 40 people doesnt mean they need to be nerfed.

Our ball group goes hours without wiping - flairs / mines / staying buffed up / not hyper stacking on rams

We do eventually wipe to bombers - everyone dies. Its how the game works. This bombing meta just weeds out the casual players from the players trying to improve.

If die to a bomb instead of crying about it - figure out why it killed you, and what can you change. There is 100% something you could have done diff. Even when our ball group wipes after hours of play to bombers theres always the "we should have done this" and we wouldnt of wiped.

No one is saying that any play style is 'okay' and others aren't. What we are saying is that when you buff only one style because people complain and whine, then you will end up with only that play style dominating and nothing being balanced. The bombers have been buffed to the heavens. Meanwhile, the people that love the larger 24-man groups were not considered AT ALL! ZOS even announced that they were doing away with the 24-man groups because they happened to like "certain behaviors" over others. What were those behaviors? No one knows. It certainly didn't help game play for the average player.

Soul_Demon

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Thanos7895 wrote: »

The combination of buffs to attacks to stealth and Viscous Death has created a bombers paradise. Now, all we have is groups of stealth bombers while we siege. You couple this with the reduction in group number from 24 has made groups trying to play the map as was intended a very undesirable experience.

ZOS - I would suggest that you should probably act quickly to correct this unless you were intending to make Cyro the "New Battleground"

I for one do not enjoy battlegrounds gameplay and have chosen to not do battlegrounds and you have essentially converted Cyro to this...

I would also suggest that you re-examine who you are listening to for feedback since the people that have the great streams of gameplay are not necessarily your target customer despite what they are telling you

Well said.....its not in my mind that difficult to see where this leads to. Reduction in pushing keeps and outposts leads pretty clearly to no one moving around map---and if they are not moving all those who make a living either farming new players at resources or bombing will basically be standing around waiting endlessly for something to happen......but slowly it tapers to nothing. The parasitic styles of play in cyro has need for players to keep playing the game as designed, otherwise the fringe of game-play cant exist. Surely they can see this leading to a dead end in play.....

But they are playing the game as designed too, or is pvdoor with no opposition considered the only way to play as designed now?

No, not playing as designed and you well know it.....as far as PvDoor- is there some system in place to notify the enemy you are on your way? I wonder if such a thing exists like say.....a war zone where you are under constant attack and either defend or attack in order to play the game? Maybe divide it up by factions and score the game based on what is taken and lost and give in game currency like say AP for doing that with leader board giving rewards for it. Busy ganking a dude solo with 6 players in stealth and miss the attack? Too bad. Pay attention to the war.

Nothing worse than NOT calling them up on phone to tell them 'hey, we are gonna hit you now at xxxxx'.......You know, maybe you are on to something.....let me say right now unequivocally right now that I will attack every single keep my faction does not own at anytime in Cyro. There, notified the enemy they will be attacked so there is no way I can be accused of PvDoor by anyone. Thanks man, you offered me a lot to think about and have helped me to keep on track by announcing my intentions to the enemy factions. Appreciate ya bro.

Sanctum74

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Thanos7895 wrote: »

The combination of buffs to attacks to stealth and Viscous Death has created a bombers paradise. Now, all we have is groups of stealth bombers while we siege. You couple this with the reduction in group number from 24 has made groups trying to play the map as was intended a very undesirable experience.

ZOS - I would suggest that you should probably act quickly to correct this unless you were intending to make Cyro the "New Battleground"

I for one do not enjoy battlegrounds gameplay and have chosen to not do battlegrounds and you have essentially converted Cyro to this...

I would also suggest that you re-examine who you are listening to for feedback since the people that have the great streams of gameplay are not necessarily your target customer despite what they are telling you

Well said.....its not in my mind that difficult to see where this leads to. Reduction in pushing keeps and outposts leads pretty clearly to no one moving around map---and if they are not moving all those who make a living either farming new players at resources or bombing will basically be standing around waiting endlessly for something to happen......but slowly it tapers to nothing. The parasitic styles of play in cyro has need for players to keep playing the game as designed, otherwise the fringe of game-play cant exist. Surely they can see this leading to a dead end in play.....

But they are playing the game as designed too, or is pvdoor with no opposition considered the only way to play as designed now?

No, not playing as designed and you well know it.....as far as PvDoor- is there some system in place to notify the enemy you are on your way? I wonder if such a thing exists like say.....a war zone where you are under constant attack and either defend or attack in order to play the game? Maybe divide it up by factions and score the game based on what is taken and lost and give in game currency like say AP for doing that with leader board giving rewards for it. Busy ganking a dude solo with 6 players in stealth and miss the attack? Too bad. Pay attention to the war.

Nothing worse than NOT calling them up on phone to tell them 'hey, we are gonna hit you now at xxxxx'.......You know, maybe you are on to something.....let me say right now unequivocally right now that I will attack every single keep my faction does not own at anytime in Cyro. There, notified the enemy they will be attacked so there is no way I can be accused of PvDoor by anyone. Thanks man, you offered me a lot to think about and have helped me to keep on track by announcing my intentions to the enemy factions. Appreciate ya bro.

Yes it is playing as designed which is exactly why vd and proxy were created by zos.

As far as pvdoor goes, I don’t like the play style since usually the people doing it never defend it anyway so they are doing nothing to help the score, but regardless I’m not looking to remove their play style or say it’s not intended just because I don’t like it or don’t want to use the counters.

Pvp is already on life support and if Zos listened to all the complaints about solos, 1vX, ball groups, snipers, gankers, pvdoor groups, and zergs there wouldn’t be anyone left in cyrodill.

Goregrinder

Ball groups have been left unchecked for too long, now they are being put in check as it should have always been.

Soul_Demon

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Thanos7895 wrote: »

The combination of buffs to attacks to stealth and Viscous Death has created a bombers paradise. Now, all we have is groups of stealth bombers while we siege. You couple this with the reduction in group number from 24 has made groups trying to play the map as was intended a very undesirable experience.

ZOS - I would suggest that you should probably act quickly to correct this unless you were intending to make Cyro the "New Battleground"

I for one do not enjoy battlegrounds gameplay and have chosen to not do battlegrounds and you have essentially converted Cyro to this...

I would also suggest that you re-examine who you are listening to for feedback since the people that have the great streams of gameplay are not necessarily your target customer despite what they are telling you

Well said.....its not in my mind that difficult to see where this leads to. Reduction in pushing keeps and outposts leads pretty clearly to no one moving around map---and if they are not moving all those who make a living either farming new players at resources or bombing will basically be standing around waiting endlessly for something to happen......but slowly it tapers to nothing. The parasitic styles of play in cyro has need for players to keep playing the game as designed, otherwise the fringe of game-play cant exist. Surely they can see this leading to a dead end in play.....

But they are playing the game as designed too, or is pvdoor with no opposition considered the only way to play as designed now?

No, not playing as designed and you well know it.....as far as PvDoor- is there some system in place to notify the enemy you are on your way? I wonder if such a thing exists like say.....a war zone where you are under constant attack and either defend or attack in order to play the game? Maybe divide it up by factions and score the game based on what is taken and lost and give in game currency like say AP for doing that with leader board giving rewards for it. Busy ganking a dude solo with 6 players in stealth and miss the attack? Too bad. Pay attention to the war.

Nothing worse than NOT calling them up on phone to tell them 'hey, we are gonna hit you now at xxxxx'.......You know, maybe you are on to something.....let me say right now unequivocally right now that I will attack every single keep my faction does not own at anytime in Cyro. There, notified the enemy they will be attacked so there is no way I can be accused of PvDoor by anyone. Thanks man, you offered me a lot to think about and have helped me to keep on track by announcing my intentions to the enemy factions. Appreciate ya bro.

Yes it is playing as designed which is exactly why vd and proxy were created by zos.

As far as pvdoor goes, I don’t like the play style since usually the people doing it never defend it anyway so they are doing nothing to help the score, but regardless I’m not looking to remove their play style or say it’s not intended just because I don’t like it or don’t want to use the counters.

Pvp is already on life support and if Zos listened to all the complaints about solos, 1vX, ball groups, snipers, gankers, pvdoor groups, and zergs there wouldn’t be anyone left in cyrodill.

Now you are playing word games man...not a good look. No one cares about VD and Prox Det, what they care about is reduction in group size from 24 to 12 (no way to carry/help new players), ZOS deciding they will simply not show us some of the skills and effects to improve game-play that did not improve anything at all, and of course guaranteed crit from stealth dealing 46% bonus damage if a Ranged attack and 275% bonus damage if a Melee attack (Magical and Martial, rather than only Martial), and Stun the target on Martial or Magical melee attacks. So, one dude in stealth and easily wipe out 80% of a push if they attack one time and you dont get to even respond to it as ZOS decided you did not need to see some effects in game. Buff to the style of game play that is parasitic in nature to the point they can wipe out any groups efforts in one shot.

The game itself thrives on consistent flow of new players that was destroyed by the 24 man groups being reduced to 12 so no one will carry new players and teach them the game any longer and with the buffs too 'from stealth' bombers and gankers they are encouraging the solo and now bomb groups that largely wait around for someone to try and play the way the game was designed while they, themselves drive none of the play out in Cyro. If there is ONE play style that needed no buff at all, its the style that doesn't try to push action on map but moves to it in order to play at all.....you kill what little is left of the PvP here and it doesn't take a genius to see where this leads.

If you personally are comfortable with no new players coming out beyond forming up bomb groups of say 6 deep and gank squads of 6-8 (as we see now with patch) then by all means bomb and gank till your hearts content.....but they dont drive the fights on the map and never will.

Eventually it will be a bunch of players chatting and waiting for anyone to dare come out of keeps as no one will chance a push and simply faction stack to move at all. Never encourage the faction stacks in game man....never. To me this is absolutely NOT where the game should have started to move---but its what they did last patch. Best part is they ignore the malfunctioning CC immunity not working in combat that was major concern to many who play now.....further insulting the players who are left and allowed block cost bug that was picked up and listed from PTS to come over to the game. Double insult. If that sounds like a bunch of fun to you......have at it. But to me it sounds like the final nail.

Sanctum74

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Thanos7895 wrote: »

The combination of buffs to attacks to stealth and Viscous Death has created a bombers paradise. Now, all we have is groups of stealth bombers while we siege. You couple this with the reduction in group number from 24 has made groups trying to play the map as was intended a very undesirable experience.

ZOS - I would suggest that you should probably act quickly to correct this unless you were intending to make Cyro the "New Battleground"

I for one do not enjoy battlegrounds gameplay and have chosen to not do battlegrounds and you have essentially converted Cyro to this...

I would also suggest that you re-examine who you are listening to for feedback since the people that have the great streams of gameplay are not necessarily your target customer despite what they are telling you

Well said.....its not in my mind that difficult to see where this leads to. Reduction in pushing keeps and outposts leads pretty clearly to no one moving around map---and if they are not moving all those who make a living either farming new players at resources or bombing will basically be standing around waiting endlessly for something to happen......but slowly it tapers to nothing. The parasitic styles of play in cyro has need for players to keep playing the game as designed, otherwise the fringe of game-play cant exist. Surely they can see this leading to a dead end in play.....

But they are playing the game as designed too, or is pvdoor with no opposition considered the only way to play as designed now?

No, not playing as designed and you well know it.....as far as PvDoor- is there some system in place to notify the enemy you are on your way? I wonder if such a thing exists like say.....a war zone where you are under constant attack and either defend or attack in order to play the game? Maybe divide it up by factions and score the game based on what is taken and lost and give in game currency like say AP for doing that with leader board giving rewards for it. Busy ganking a dude solo with 6 players in stealth and miss the attack? Too bad. Pay attention to the war.

Nothing worse than NOT calling them up on phone to tell them 'hey, we are gonna hit you now at xxxxx'.......You know, maybe you are on to something.....let me say right now unequivocally right now that I will attack every single keep my faction does not own at anytime in Cyro. There, notified the enemy they will be attacked so there is no way I can be accused of PvDoor by anyone. Thanks man, you offered me a lot to think about and have helped me to keep on track by announcing my intentions to the enemy factions. Appreciate ya bro.

Yes it is playing as designed which is exactly why vd and proxy were created by zos.

As far as pvdoor goes, I don’t like the play style since usually the people doing it never defend it anyway so they are doing nothing to help the score, but regardless I’m not looking to remove their play style or say it’s not intended just because I don’t like it or don’t want to use the counters.

Pvp is already on life support and if Zos listened to all the complaints about solos, 1vX, ball groups, snipers, gankers, pvdoor groups, and zergs there wouldn’t be anyone left in cyrodill.

Now you are playing word games man...not a good look. No one cares about VD and Prox Det, what they care about is reduction in group size from 24 to 12 (no way to carry/help new players), ZOS deciding they will simply not show us some of the skills and effects to improve game-play that did not improve anything at all, and of course guaranteed crit from stealth dealing 46% bonus damage if a Ranged attack and 275% bonus damage if a Melee attack (Magical and Martial, rather than only Martial), and Stun the target on Martial or Magical melee attacks. So, one dude in stealth and easily wipe out 80% of a push if they attack one time and you dont get to even respond to it as ZOS decided you did not need to see some effects in game. Buff to the style of game play that is parasitic in nature to the point they can wipe out any groups efforts in one shot.

The game itself thrives on consistent flow of new players that was destroyed by the 24 man groups being reduced to 12 so no one will carry new players and teach them the game any longer and with the buffs too 'from stealth' bombers and gankers they are encouraging the solo and now bomb groups that largely wait around for someone to try and play the way the game was designed while they, themselves drive none of the play out in Cyro. If there is ONE play style that needed no buff at all, its the style that doesn't try to push action on map but moves to it in order to play at all.....you kill what little is left of the PvP here and it doesn't take a genius to see where this leads.

If you personally are comfortable with no new players coming out beyond forming up bomb groups of say 6 deep and gank squads of 6-8 (as we see now with patch) then by all means bomb and gank till your hearts content.....but they dont drive the fights on the map and never will.

Eventually it will be a bunch of players chatting and waiting for anyone to dare come out of keeps as no one will chance a push and simply faction stack to move at all. Never encourage the faction stacks in game man....never. To me this is absolutely NOT where the game should have started to move---but its what they did last patch. Best part is they ignore the malfunctioning CC immunity not working in combat that was major concern to many who play now.....further insulting the players who are left and allowed block cost bug that was picked up and listed from PTS to come over to the game. Double insult. If that sounds like a bunch of fun to you......have at it. But to me it sounds like the final nail.

There was no play on words, I was just backing up the fact that vd bombers are an intended play style which is why zos created it. Apparently op cares about vd because that’s what he was complaining about in his post.

I do agree dropping the group size was a bad idea, but that still doesn’t change the fact it’s an intended play style even if you consider it parasitic. As far as the increased stealth damage that is only for pve so it helps to understand how the game works before complaining.

With that being said vd did get buffed and the damage can be buffed even more on a stamina character which again I clearly stated I don’t think it needed a buff and I also stated I am not a bomber so reading the thread could have saved you a big wall of text.

I play a solo, medium armor, no cloak, stamblade and I get bombed by groups when I’m solo and as much as I hate the cheesiness of it I just hit the respawn button and I’m on my way. If you’re running in groups and you’re not prepared to use the many counters then that’s your choice, but to expect to just take keeps with no resistance or call other people’s play style parasitic doesn’t really address any of the problems.

ResidentContrarian

The one thing they do have to fix about "bombing" is that proc set Vicious Death and "Serpent's Spirit" (Syvarra Scales) should not be able to proc off of siege (cold stone trebuchet, etc. haven't bothered testing all of them).

Right now they do, and people can, will, and already have been abusing that for a while in Cyrodiil. I forgot to write a bug report about that on PTS...oops!

No one use siege and VD, the forums can be trusted to be civil, right...?

Firstmep

Earthewen wrote: »

DTAmoral wrote: »

As a ball grouper who has to daily deal with the bombers // its totally acceptable and fair play. I might curse and call you names for wiping us on a carpet of bombings BUT I think its totally acceptable.

Everyone complains ball groups are the cancer of PvP - so now bombers can kill ball groups // its fair.

Just because you zerg around and get VD'd because you're standing in 40 people doesnt mean they need to be nerfed.

Our ball group goes hours without wiping - flairs / mines / staying buffed up / not hyper stacking on rams

We do eventually wipe to bombers - everyone dies. Its how the game works. This bombing meta just weeds out the casual players from the players trying to improve.

If die to a bomb instead of crying about it - figure out why it killed you, and what can you change. There is 100% something you could have done diff. Even when our ball group wipes after hours of play to bombers theres always the "we should have done this" and we wouldnt of wiped.

No one is saying that any play style is 'okay' and others aren't. What we are saying is that when you buff only one style because people complain and whine, then you will end up with only that play style dominating and nothing being balanced. The bombers have been buffed to the heavens. Meanwhile, the people that love the larger 24-man groups were not considered AT ALL! ZOS even announced that they were doing away with the 24-man groups because they happened to like "certain behaviors" over others. What were those behaviors? No one knows. It certainly didn't help game play for the average player.

You already have the advantage of being in a large group, what more do you want?
If you want to be more effective, organize yourselves better, run detection skills and potions, don't bunch up so much etc

You talk about bombers like they're this unbeatable God figure in cyro..
Cyrodiil is a pvp mode, it is expected that some level of skill is required to succeed, even if it that skill is just being able to organize bigger groups.

The whole 100s of players on screen hasn't been truly possible for years due to performance, no matter how much we want it.

Minnesinger

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

The one thing they do have to fix about "bombing" is that proc set Vicious Death and "Serpent's Spirit" (Syvarra Scales) should not be able to proc off of siege (cold stone trebuchet, etc. haven't bothered testing all of them).

Right now they do, and people can, will, and already have been abusing that for a while in Cyrodiil. I forgot to write a bug report about that on PTS...oops!

No one use siege and VD, the forums can be trusted to be civil, right...?

That is a feature never an abuse. The siege procs off VD at least. Killing blows count.

ResidentContrarian

Minnesinger wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

The one thing they do have to fix about "bombing" is that proc set Vicious Death and "Serpent's Spirit" (Syvarra Scales) should not be able to proc off of siege (cold stone trebuchet, etc. haven't bothered testing all of them).

Right now they do, and people can, will, and already have been abusing that for a while in Cyrodiil. I forgot to write a bug report about that on PTS...oops!

No one use siege and VD, the forums can be trusted to be civil, right...?

That is a feature never an abuse. The siege procs off VD at least. Killing blows count.

Considering siege shouldn't be proccing anything, but can proc only a select few damage procs I highly doubt it.

Also if true, that means the set has zero risk-reward and needs it's damage checked.

Minnesinger

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Minnesinger wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

The one thing they do have to fix about "bombing" is that proc set Vicious Death and "Serpent's Spirit" (Syvarra Scales) should not be able to proc off of siege (cold stone trebuchet, etc. haven't bothered testing all of them).

Right now they do, and people can, will, and already have been abusing that for a while in Cyrodiil. I forgot to write a bug report about that on PTS...oops!

No one use siege and VD, the forums can be trusted to be civil, right...?

That is a feature never an abuse. The siege procs off VD at least. Killing blows count.

Considering siege shouldn't be proccing anything, but can proc only a select few damage procs I highly doubt it.

Also if true, that means the set has zero risk-reward and needs it's damage checked.

If nothing has changed it should proc off all player killing blows (not npcs).

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/517155/do-oils-proc-vicious-death
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/271161/vicious-death-you-wanted-proof-here

I do disagree with that bolded part. It is high risk set if used effectively. Every group has now learnt from errors and are aware of the possible bomber. A solo bomber that runs right into the enemy group is often dead. There are groups that you never get kills not matter how much you try.

Soul_Demon

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Thanos7895 wrote: »

The combination of buffs to attacks to stealth and Viscous Death has created a bombers paradise. Now, all we have is groups of stealth bombers while we siege. You couple this with the reduction in group number from 24 has made groups trying to play the map as was intended a very undesirable experience.

ZOS - I would suggest that you should probably act quickly to correct this unless you were intending to make Cyro the "New Battleground"

I for one do not enjoy battlegrounds gameplay and have chosen to not do battlegrounds and you have essentially converted Cyro to this...

I would also suggest that you re-examine who you are listening to for feedback since the people that have the great streams of gameplay are not necessarily your target customer despite what they are telling you

Well said.....its not in my mind that difficult to see where this leads to. Reduction in pushing keeps and outposts leads pretty clearly to no one moving around map---and if they are not moving all those who make a living either farming new players at resources or bombing will basically be standing around waiting endlessly for something to happen......but slowly it tapers to nothing. The parasitic styles of play in cyro has need for players to keep playing the game as designed, otherwise the fringe of game-play cant exist. Surely they can see this leading to a dead end in play.....

But they are playing the game as designed too, or is pvdoor with no opposition considered the only way to play as designed now?

No, not playing as designed and you well know it.....as far as PvDoor- is there some system in place to notify the enemy you are on your way? I wonder if such a thing exists like say.....a war zone where you are under constant attack and either defend or attack in order to play the game? Maybe divide it up by factions and score the game based on what is taken and lost and give in game currency like say AP for doing that with leader board giving rewards for it. Busy ganking a dude solo with 6 players in stealth and miss the attack? Too bad. Pay attention to the war.

Nothing worse than NOT calling them up on phone to tell them 'hey, we are gonna hit you now at xxxxx'.......You know, maybe you are on to something.....let me say right now unequivocally right now that I will attack every single keep my faction does not own at anytime in Cyro. There, notified the enemy they will be attacked so there is no way I can be accused of PvDoor by anyone. Thanks man, you offered me a lot to think about and have helped me to keep on track by announcing my intentions to the enemy factions. Appreciate ya bro.

Yes it is playing as designed which is exactly why vd and proxy were created by zos.

As far as pvdoor goes, I don’t like the play style since usually the people doing it never defend it anyway so they are doing nothing to help the score, but regardless I’m not looking to remove their play style or say it’s not intended just because I don’t like it or don’t want to use the counters.

Pvp is already on life support and if Zos listened to all the complaints about solos, 1vX, ball groups, snipers, gankers, pvdoor groups, and zergs there wouldn’t be anyone left in cyrodill.

Now you are playing word games man...not a good look. No one cares about VD and Prox Det, what they care about is reduction in group size from 24 to 12 (no way to carry/help new players), ZOS deciding they will simply not show us some of the skills and effects to improve game-play that did not improve anything at all, and of course guaranteed crit from stealth dealing 46% bonus damage if a Ranged attack and 275% bonus damage if a Melee attack (Magical and Martial, rather than only Martial), and Stun the target on Martial or Magical melee attacks. So, one dude in stealth and easily wipe out 80% of a push if they attack one time and you dont get to even respond to it as ZOS decided you did not need to see some effects in game. Buff to the style of game play that is parasitic in nature to the point they can wipe out any groups efforts in one shot.

The game itself thrives on consistent flow of new players that was destroyed by the 24 man groups being reduced to 12 so no one will carry new players and teach them the game any longer and with the buffs too 'from stealth' bombers and gankers they are encouraging the solo and now bomb groups that largely wait around for someone to try and play the way the game was designed while they, themselves drive none of the play out in Cyro. If there is ONE play style that needed no buff at all, its the style that doesn't try to push action on map but moves to it in order to play at all.....you kill what little is left of the PvP here and it doesn't take a genius to see where this leads.

If you personally are comfortable with no new players coming out beyond forming up bomb groups of say 6 deep and gank squads of 6-8 (as we see now with patch) then by all means bomb and gank till your hearts content.....but they dont drive the fights on the map and never will.

Eventually it will be a bunch of players chatting and waiting for anyone to dare come out of keeps as no one will chance a push and simply faction stack to move at all. Never encourage the faction stacks in game man....never. To me this is absolutely NOT where the game should have started to move---but its what they did last patch. Best part is they ignore the malfunctioning CC immunity not working in combat that was major concern to many who play now.....further insulting the players who are left and allowed block cost bug that was picked up and listed from PTS to come over to the game. Double insult. If that sounds like a bunch of fun to you......have at it. But to me it sounds like the final nail.

There was no play on words, I was just backing up the fact that vd bombers are an intended play style which is why zos created it. Apparently op cares about vd because that’s what he was complaining about in his post.

I do agree dropping the group size was a bad idea, but that still doesn’t change the fact it’s an intended play style even if you consider it parasitic. As far as the increased stealth damage that is only for pve so it helps to understand how the game works before complaining.

With that being said vd did get buffed and the damage can be buffed even more on a stamina character which again I clearly stated I don’t think it needed a buff and I also stated I am not a bomber so reading the thread could have saved you a big wall of text.

I play a solo, medium armor, no cloak, stamblade and I get bombed by groups when I’m solo and as much as I hate the cheesiness of it I just hit the respawn button and I’m on my way. If you’re running in groups and you’re not prepared to use the many counters then that’s your choice, but to expect to just take keeps with no resistance or call other people’s play style parasitic doesn’t really address any of the problems.

The players created the bombers, not the game. And they did so to fight the players who are playing it as it was designed with only one player who dies nearly every time, but ends up killing a large amount of players as consequence, suicide bombing is NOT something they designed in the game, but a byproduct of those who did not care to create a group and fight back in that way......So now with changes we see GROUPS of them due to increased stam cost to block bug making it 100% certain a few bombers in succession will reduce any group to 0 stam. 100%

The additional damage is in "Combat and Gameplay" section. Just in case you missed it. Nothing quite as funny as someone explaining to another they need to 'understand how the game works" and being given the patch notes themselves to say that isnt how it works.

And what you play...is irrelevant as the topic was "The combination of buffs to attacks to stealth and Viscous Death has created a bombers paradise. Now, all we have is groups of stealth bombers while we siege. You couple this with the reduction in group number from 24 has made groups trying to play the map as was intended a very undesirable experience." Could be you needed to read the topic more carefully and understand it wasn't VD alone, but the COMBINATION of the buffs and increased damage and what that did with VD related to the groups being limited to 12. Guaranteed Critical Strike, with increase in damage. Problematic in 12 man groups. No issue with normal groups.

So parasitic playstyles are buffed and that encourages the faction stacks. That isnt a preference, its my warning of where this leads to and is ironic as the reduction in groups size (unclear/conflicting reasons), not showing us some skills/visuals as determined by ZOS who doesn't play the game and buffs to damage from stealth along with VD and the increased block cost bug not being addressed.....gives NO IMPROVEMENT TO PERFORMANCE and the lag is still a problem along with the problems not addressed to work on this stuff. The definition of irony.

There is no question the lag has not improved and the faction stacks are becoming more regular in the game right now.....let me say again, you can play however you want....but if you dont see where this leads, you really should ask yourself what happens when its only faction stacks and 8 man groups of gankers and bombers out on map. Its where this drives the play inevitably. Moreover, I dont see any improvement in lag----none.

Feaky

The last few days I've seen an increased number of groups running in stealth then rushing up while spamming sap essence, detonation with VD builds. "Bombing by committee or mini ball groups". They don't really play the map, they just look for groups to bomb together. I expect this will increase as more and more people start figuring out this type of build.

So essentially most of the fights the past few days have either been bombing by committee from stealth, or ball groups spamming similar abilities but opposed to sneaking up on you they just roll up to you with their "addons" causing excessive lag preventing you from doing anything. Both fights suck. Quite honestly, I actually avoid either type of ball group, if for no other reason, to avoid wasting 20 min trying to get rid of the combat bug they seem to cause almost every time I fight them.

This is where we are with Cyro right now.

Earthewen

Bombers were originally just a few elite players who could pull off a successful bomb. In a couple of hours during primetime, you could expect a few bombs throughout the evening.

However, now with the current patch the bomber has been boosted and dumbed down enough so much that we now have a bomb at almost every flag, every siege, every encounter. With so many bombers on the map now, the days of elite players only using those builds are gone. Every monkey on the map can almost pull it off every time. No skill involved.

Minnesinger

Soul_Demon wrote: »

..

So parasitic playstyles are buffed ....

I really do not recognize those parasitic playstyles. Care to explain?

Soul_Demon

Minnesinger wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

..

So parasitic playstyles are buffed ....

I really do not recognize those parasitic playstyles. Care to explain?

Sure, its really simple. If you are not playing the map to take outposts and keeps----but either trying to bait players into choke points and farm them or ganking (more than 3) and bombing in groups, you are a parasite in the game.

Those playstyles rely on others playing the design of the game entirely. With no one doing the aforementioned, you cant play at all. Zip. So, you are a parasite. Gankers fall into an odd category as they are needed, so long as they are not running in groups more than say 3.....more than that, its just 4vs1 and such an advantage its not acceptable that you are not creating fights on the map and just outnumbering players you hit to such a degree there is no chance.

Sanctum74

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Thanos7895 wrote: »

The combination of buffs to attacks to stealth and Viscous Death has created a bombers paradise. Now, all we have is groups of stealth bombers while we siege. You couple this with the reduction in group number from 24 has made groups trying to play the map as was intended a very undesirable experience.

ZOS - I would suggest that you should probably act quickly to correct this unless you were intending to make Cyro the "New Battleground"

I for one do not enjoy battlegrounds gameplay and have chosen to not do battlegrounds and you have essentially converted Cyro to this...

I would also suggest that you re-examine who you are listening to for feedback since the people that have the great streams of gameplay are not necessarily your target customer despite what they are telling you

Well said.....its not in my mind that difficult to see where this leads to. Reduction in pushing keeps and outposts leads pretty clearly to no one moving around map---and if they are not moving all those who make a living either farming new players at resources or bombing will basically be standing around waiting endlessly for something to happen......but slowly it tapers to nothing. The parasitic styles of play in cyro has need for players to keep playing the game as designed, otherwise the fringe of game-play cant exist. Surely they can see this leading to a dead end in play.....

But they are playing the game as designed too, or is pvdoor with no opposition considered the only way to play as designed now?

No, not playing as designed and you well know it.....as far as PvDoor- is there some system in place to notify the enemy you are on your way? I wonder if such a thing exists like say.....a war zone where you are under constant attack and either defend or attack in order to play the game? Maybe divide it up by factions and score the game based on what is taken and lost and give in game currency like say AP for doing that with leader board giving rewards for it. Busy ganking a dude solo with 6 players in stealth and miss the attack? Too bad. Pay attention to the war.

Nothing worse than NOT calling them up on phone to tell them 'hey, we are gonna hit you now at xxxxx'.......You know, maybe you are on to something.....let me say right now unequivocally right now that I will attack every single keep my faction does not own at anytime in Cyro. There, notified the enemy they will be attacked so there is no way I can be accused of PvDoor by anyone. Thanks man, you offered me a lot to think about and have helped me to keep on track by announcing my intentions to the enemy factions. Appreciate ya bro.

Yes it is playing as designed which is exactly why vd and proxy were created by zos.

As far as pvdoor goes, I don’t like the play style since usually the people doing it never defend it anyway so they are doing nothing to help the score, but regardless I’m not looking to remove their play style or say it’s not intended just because I don’t like it or don’t want to use the counters.

Pvp is already on life support and if Zos listened to all the complaints about solos, 1vX, ball groups, snipers, gankers, pvdoor groups, and zergs there wouldn’t be anyone left in cyrodill.

Now you are playing word games man...not a good look. No one cares about VD and Prox Det, what they care about is reduction in group size from 24 to 12 (no way to carry/help new players), ZOS deciding they will simply not show us some of the skills and effects to improve game-play that did not improve anything at all, and of course guaranteed crit from stealth dealing 46% bonus damage if a Ranged attack and 275% bonus damage if a Melee attack (Magical and Martial, rather than only Martial), and Stun the target on Martial or Magical melee attacks. So, one dude in stealth and easily wipe out 80% of a push if they attack one time and you dont get to even respond to it as ZOS decided you did not need to see some effects in game. Buff to the style of game play that is parasitic in nature to the point they can wipe out any groups efforts in one shot.

The game itself thrives on consistent flow of new players that was destroyed by the 24 man groups being reduced to 12 so no one will carry new players and teach them the game any longer and with the buffs too 'from stealth' bombers and gankers they are encouraging the solo and now bomb groups that largely wait around for someone to try and play the way the game was designed while they, themselves drive none of the play out in Cyro. If there is ONE play style that needed no buff at all, its the style that doesn't try to push action on map but moves to it in order to play at all.....you kill what little is left of the PvP here and it doesn't take a genius to see where this leads.

If you personally are comfortable with no new players coming out beyond forming up bomb groups of say 6 deep and gank squads of 6-8 (as we see now with patch) then by all means bomb and gank till your hearts content.....but they dont drive the fights on the map and never will.

Eventually it will be a bunch of players chatting and waiting for anyone to dare come out of keeps as no one will chance a push and simply faction stack to move at all. Never encourage the faction stacks in game man....never. To me this is absolutely NOT where the game should have started to move---but its what they did last patch. Best part is they ignore the malfunctioning CC immunity not working in combat that was major concern to many who play now.....further insulting the players who are left and allowed block cost bug that was picked up and listed from PTS to come over to the game. Double insult. If that sounds like a bunch of fun to you......have at it. But to me it sounds like the final nail.

There was no play on words, I was just backing up the fact that vd bombers are an intended play style which is why zos created it. Apparently op cares about vd because that’s what he was complaining about in his post.

I do agree dropping the group size was a bad idea, but that still doesn’t change the fact it’s an intended play style even if you consider it parasitic. As far as the increased stealth damage that is only for pve so it helps to understand how the game works before complaining.

With that being said vd did get buffed and the damage can be buffed even more on a stamina character which again I clearly stated I don’t think it needed a buff and I also stated I am not a bomber so reading the thread could have saved you a big wall of text.

I play a solo, medium armor, no cloak, stamblade and I get bombed by groups when I’m solo and as much as I hate the cheesiness of it I just hit the respawn button and I’m on my way. If you’re running in groups and you’re not prepared to use the many counters then that’s your choice, but to expect to just take keeps with no resistance or call other people’s play style parasitic doesn’t really address any of the problems.

The players created the bombers, not the game. And they did so to fight the players who are playing it as it was designed with only one player who dies nearly every time, but ends up killing a large amount of players as consequence, suicide bombing is NOT something they designed in the game, but a byproduct of those who did not care to create a group and fight back in that way......So now with changes we see GROUPS of them due to increased stam cost to block bug making it 100% certain a few bombers in succession will reduce any group to 0 stam. 100%

The additional damage is in "Combat and Gameplay" section. Just in case you missed it. Nothing quite as funny as someone explaining to another they need to 'understand how the game works" and being given the patch notes themselves to say that isnt how it works.

And what you play...is irrelevant as the topic was "The combination of buffs to attacks to stealth and Viscous Death has created a bombers paradise. Now, all we have is groups of stealth bombers while we siege. You couple this with the reduction in group number from 24 has made groups trying to play the map as was intended a very undesirable experience." Could be you needed to read the topic more carefully and understand it wasn't VD alone, but the COMBINATION of the buffs and increased damage and what that did with VD related to the groups being limited to 12. Guaranteed Critical Strike, with increase in damage. Problematic in 12 man groups. No issue with normal groups.

So parasitic playstyles are buffed and that encourages the faction stacks. That isnt a preference, its my warning of where this leads to and is ironic as the reduction in groups size (unclear/conflicting reasons), not showing us some skills/visuals as determined by ZOS who doesn't play the game and buffs to damage from stealth along with VD and the increased block cost bug not being addressed.....gives NO IMPROVEMENT TO PERFORMANCE and the lag is still a problem along with the problems not addressed to work on this stuff. The definition of irony.

There is no question the lag has not improved and the faction stacks are becoming more regular in the game right now.....let me say again, you can play however you want....but if you dont see where this leads, you really should ask yourself what happens when its only faction stacks and 8 man groups of gankers and bombers out on map. Its where this drives the play inevitably. Moreover, I dont see any improvement in lag----none.

[snip] the players didn’t create the bombers. There is no open source code where Zos allows the players to create item sets and skills like vd, proxy, and cloak. To keep saying otherwise makes no sense.

As far as the increased crit damage goes I’m well aware of that and it’s been thoroughly tested that it only affects pve damage not pvp so to continue to spread even more false information adds nothing to the discussion. Obviously nb gets guaranteed crit in cloak, but it’s always been that way.

As mentioned several times to you already I’m not a bomber and again if you read the thread you would see we actually agree on many points. If you have a problem with bombers then take it up with zos, but to just keep insulting other players for playing the game as intended is petty and does nothing to address the problem.

Yes the damage should be toned down, but to complain about people bombing you’re group for attacking their keep makes no sense.They are supposed to do that and being in a group you have many counters available and doesn’t make sense to keep complaining about something, but not use those counters.

[edited for baiting]

Soul_Demon

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Thanos7895 wrote: »

The combination of buffs to attacks to stealth and Viscous Death has created a bombers paradise. Now, all we have is groups of stealth bombers while we siege. You couple this with the reduction in group number from 24 has made groups trying to play the map as was intended a very undesirable experience.

ZOS - I would suggest that you should probably act quickly to correct this unless you were intending to make Cyro the "New Battleground"

I for one do not enjoy battlegrounds gameplay and have chosen to not do battlegrounds and you have essentially converted Cyro to this...

I would also suggest that you re-examine who you are listening to for feedback since the people that have the great streams of gameplay are not necessarily your target customer despite what they are telling you

Well said.....its not in my mind that difficult to see where this leads to. Reduction in pushing keeps and outposts leads pretty clearly to no one moving around map---and if they are not moving all those who make a living either farming new players at resources or bombing will basically be standing around waiting endlessly for something to happen......but slowly it tapers to nothing. The parasitic styles of play in cyro has need for players to keep playing the game as designed, otherwise the fringe of game-play cant exist. Surely they can see this leading to a dead end in play.....

But they are playing the game as designed too, or is pvdoor with no opposition considered the only way to play as designed now?

No, not playing as designed and you well know it.....as far as PvDoor- is there some system in place to notify the enemy you are on your way? I wonder if such a thing exists like say.....a war zone where you are under constant attack and either defend or attack in order to play the game? Maybe divide it up by factions and score the game based on what is taken and lost and give in game currency like say AP for doing that with leader board giving rewards for it. Busy ganking a dude solo with 6 players in stealth and miss the attack? Too bad. Pay attention to the war.

Nothing worse than NOT calling them up on phone to tell them 'hey, we are gonna hit you now at xxxxx'.......You know, maybe you are on to something.....let me say right now unequivocally right now that I will attack every single keep my faction does not own at anytime in Cyro. There, notified the enemy they will be attacked so there is no way I can be accused of PvDoor by anyone. Thanks man, you offered me a lot to think about and have helped me to keep on track by announcing my intentions to the enemy factions. Appreciate ya bro.

Yes it is playing as designed which is exactly why vd and proxy were created by zos.

As far as pvdoor goes, I don’t like the play style since usually the people doing it never defend it anyway so they are doing nothing to help the score, but regardless I’m not looking to remove their play style or say it’s not intended just because I don’t like it or don’t want to use the counters.

Pvp is already on life support and if Zos listened to all the complaints about solos, 1vX, ball groups, snipers, gankers, pvdoor groups, and zergs there wouldn’t be anyone left in cyrodill.

Now you are playing word games man...not a good look. No one cares about VD and Prox Det, what they care about is reduction in group size from 24 to 12 (no way to carry/help new players), ZOS deciding they will simply not show us some of the skills and effects to improve game-play that did not improve anything at all, and of course guaranteed crit from stealth dealing 46% bonus damage if a Ranged attack and 275% bonus damage if a Melee attack (Magical and Martial, rather than only Martial), and Stun the target on Martial or Magical melee attacks. So, one dude in stealth and easily wipe out 80% of a push if they attack one time and you dont get to even respond to it as ZOS decided you did not need to see some effects in game. Buff to the style of game play that is parasitic in nature to the point they can wipe out any groups efforts in one shot.

The game itself thrives on consistent flow of new players that was destroyed by the 24 man groups being reduced to 12 so no one will carry new players and teach them the game any longer and with the buffs too 'from stealth' bombers and gankers they are encouraging the solo and now bomb groups that largely wait around for someone to try and play the way the game was designed while they, themselves drive none of the play out in Cyro. If there is ONE play style that needed no buff at all, its the style that doesn't try to push action on map but moves to it in order to play at all.....you kill what little is left of the PvP here and it doesn't take a genius to see where this leads.

If you personally are comfortable with no new players coming out beyond forming up bomb groups of say 6 deep and gank squads of 6-8 (as we see now with patch) then by all means bomb and gank till your hearts content.....but they dont drive the fights on the map and never will.

Eventually it will be a bunch of players chatting and waiting for anyone to dare come out of keeps as no one will chance a push and simply faction stack to move at all. Never encourage the faction stacks in game man....never. To me this is absolutely NOT where the game should have started to move---but its what they did last patch. Best part is they ignore the malfunctioning CC immunity not working in combat that was major concern to many who play now.....further insulting the players who are left and allowed block cost bug that was picked up and listed from PTS to come over to the game. Double insult. If that sounds like a bunch of fun to you......have at it. But to me it sounds like the final nail.

There was no play on words, I was just backing up the fact that vd bombers are an intended play style which is why zos created it. Apparently op cares about vd because that’s what he was complaining about in his post.

I do agree dropping the group size was a bad idea, but that still doesn’t change the fact it’s an intended play style even if you consider it parasitic. As far as the increased stealth damage that is only for pve so it helps to understand how the game works before complaining.

With that being said vd did get buffed and the damage can be buffed even more on a stamina character which again I clearly stated I don’t think it needed a buff and I also stated I am not a bomber so reading the thread could have saved you a big wall of text.

I play a solo, medium armor, no cloak, stamblade and I get bombed by groups when I’m solo and as much as I hate the cheesiness of it I just hit the respawn button and I’m on my way. If you’re running in groups and you’re not prepared to use the many counters then that’s your choice, but to expect to just take keeps with no resistance or call other people’s play style parasitic doesn’t really address any of the problems.

The players created the bombers, not the game. And they did so to fight the players who are playing it as it was designed with only one player who dies nearly every time, but ends up killing a large amount of players as consequence, suicide bombing is NOT something they designed in the game, but a byproduct of those who did not care to create a group and fight back in that way......So now with changes we see GROUPS of them due to increased stam cost to block bug making it 100% certain a few bombers in succession will reduce any group to 0 stam. 100%

The additional damage is in "Combat and Gameplay" section. Just in case you missed it. Nothing quite as funny as someone explaining to another they need to 'understand how the game works" and being given the patch notes themselves to say that isnt how it works.

And what you play...is irrelevant as the topic was "The combination of buffs to attacks to stealth and Viscous Death has created a bombers paradise. Now, all we have is groups of stealth bombers while we siege. You couple this with the reduction in group number from 24 has made groups trying to play the map as was intended a very undesirable experience." Could be you needed to read the topic more carefully and understand it wasn't VD alone, but the COMBINATION of the buffs and increased damage and what that did with VD related to the groups being limited to 12. Guaranteed Critical Strike, with increase in damage. Problematic in 12 man groups. No issue with normal groups.

So parasitic playstyles are buffed and that encourages the faction stacks. That isnt a preference, its my warning of where this leads to and is ironic as the reduction in groups size (unclear/conflicting reasons), not showing us some skills/visuals as determined by ZOS who doesn't play the game and buffs to damage from stealth along with VD and the increased block cost bug not being addressed.....gives NO IMPROVEMENT TO PERFORMANCE and the lag is still a problem along with the problems not addressed to work on this stuff. The definition of irony.

There is no question the lag has not improved and the faction stacks are becoming more regular in the game right now.....let me say again, you can play however you want....but if you dont see where this leads, you really should ask yourself what happens when its only faction stacks and 8 man groups of gankers and bombers out on map. Its where this drives the play inevitably. Moreover, I dont see any improvement in lag----none.

[snip], the players didn’t create the bombers. There is no open source code where Zos allows the players to create item sets and skills like vd, proxy, and cloak. To keep saying otherwise makes no sense.

As far as the increased crit damage goes I’m well aware of that and it’s been thoroughly tested that it only affects pve damage not pvp so to continue to spread even more false information adds nothing to the discussion. Obviously nb gets guaranteed crit in cloak, but it’s always been that way.

As mentioned several times to you already I’m not a bomber and again if you read the thread you would see we actually agree on many points. If you have a problem with bombers then take it up with zos, but to just keep insulting other players for playing the game as intended is petty and does nothing to address the problem.

Yes the damage should be toned down, but to complain about people bombing you’re group for attacking their keep makes no sense.They are supposed to do that and being in a group you have many counters available and doesn’t make sense to keep complaining about something, but not use those counters.

"[snip] the players didn’t create the bombers. There is no open source code where Zos allows the players to create item sets and skills like vd, proxy, and cloak. To keep saying otherwise makes no sense."

This statement shows you are not understanding who made bombers in the game. There is no way to show you as its been laid out for you already and you insist ZOS itself did not add skills and gear in the game players are using in a very specific way that works best when others are playing the game while you wait for precisely that alone to play. What else does a bomber do well? Maybe that will help you to understand who actually created them and what they do in game. Answer what they do really well, besides bombing groups of players and you may be able to understand.

[edited to remove quoted content]

Earthewen

What I'm seeing here, and feel free to disagree, is that this is more of a question about how people play. When the game was designed, it was definitely designed as pvp which included keep takes and defenses in order to "win" the campaign. However, what some people are suggesting here is that it is better to go for a more 1st person shooter game or "Fortnite". My question would then include, "Why are you just looking for good fights? Do you not find that on Fortnite type games?"

Hence the whole, "PvDooring" derogatory comments in this thread. This PvP was designed as a sieging game and killing players with army vs army. Why has it changed over the years to this degree? This game had a specific design and it was the design that I personally enjoyed greatly. I have a feeling I'm not the only one missing it.