DESIGN FLAW: Useless red/blue CP while green could use more.

EpicHero

After todays CP nerf on console, I already have over 50 red and over 75 blue useless CP points due to there not being any more passives to put them in, and I don't even have 1800 CP.
Where as the green tree actually has some slotables that are good to use situationaly, but you don't have enough points to get them.

It's bad enough that the red and blue CPs are just sitting there, but it's made worse by the fact that you could actually use more in the green tree.

Imo, after using up all passive slots, and maybe 4 bar slotables, you should be able to spend the remaining points in any tree.

Starshadw

I agree, there are too many active options and not enough passives. With only four slots (which I'm fine with, by the way), there are FAR too many active CP slots. The CP system has gone too far into the weeds, as they say.

Aubrey_Kidona

I would also like to see a few more passive blue and red stars. I understand the point of horizontal progression, and I actually think its nice I can have points pre-put into certain slottables so I can change easier, but there should be either a few more passives, or add even one stage back to what was taken. Something. Continuing to level seem almost useless at this point sadly. I like the overall changes, but more passive stars would be nice.

Xebov

EpicHero wrote: »

After todays CP nerf on console, I already have over 50 red and over 75 blue useless CP points due to there not being any more passives to put them in, and I don't even have 1800 CP.

Thats likely because you only have a single spec on your character. Iam nearly CP 1600. Iam a main Tank, but also need a DD spec for solo content. My current projection requires me to reach CP 2100 just to finish the blue tree (all passives and 4 aciives for tank and 4 actives for DD).

Please keep in mind that players that need more than one spec based on their roles or gameplay already have the short end of the stick and more passives dont help the situation in any way.

Toxic_Hemlock

The green tree is in need of a major rework, with far to many slotables and far, FAR to few passives. If I earned the ability to get better treasure and also gather quicker, why must I have to slot the appropriate ability between chores? I EARNED the points dammit!

As for the red and blue trees, IMO there should enough slots available for your chosen role. If I am melee DPS, and have earned the points, I should be able to slot the appropriate abilities and have the less impactful abilities be passives. Same goes for healer and tank.

I am not a fan of micro managing my CPP, and would much prefer the CPP 1.0 back at this point.

Icy_Waffles

Yeah this is insane.

Ratzkifal

Treasure Hunter should not have to be a slottable because you always want to have it slotted, meaning there is no choice behind taking it and you essentially only have 3 slottable spaces.

Stevie6

Yep, green tree needs a new passive...50 points..Auto light attack..enable/disable it with points..

TequilaFire

They very slyly let us have our cake but stopped us from eating it too.

FantasticFreddie

Everyone: "Blue and red CP are ok I guess, but green tree is AWFUL and needs to have wayore passives than slottables."
Zos: "Well we heard your feedback, and are going to ACT on it so you feel LISTENED TO!"
Everyone: "Omg really?"
Zos: "Yup!" *nerfs red and blue, doesn't fix green* "There! We fixed it!"

iksde

Xebov wrote: »

EpicHero wrote: »

After todays CP nerf on console, I already have over 50 red and over 75 blue useless CP points due to there not being any more passives to put them in, and I don't even have 1800 CP.

Thats likely because you only have a single spec on your character. Iam nearly CP 1600. Iam a main Tank, but also need a DD spec for solo content. My current projection requires me to reach CP 2100 just to finish the blue tree (all passives and 4 aciives for tank and 4 actives for DD).

Please keep in mind that players that need more than one spec based on their roles or gameplay already have the short end of the stick and more passives dont help the situation in any way.

and Im main dd and Im swapping to tank without a single respecs into it, on nb btw so not very good choice for tanking

and Im doing fine on tank with full respec from dd, even mundus xD I know I wont got with this tank on vet trials hm's etc, idk yet if I will be able o tank stone garder without hm atleast but most dlc dungs (with hm's also) I have already tanked fine as for this tank

Im at 1.7k cp where have no use for 50-100 points each red and blue tree and counting some passives which cleary have no use in group content I would have a bit more no needed points here

ofc I could add more points to be usefull for tanking but as I dont have enough them for full tank setup and Im doing fine I have not enough reason for this

doing fine even with this damn bug for blocking cost....I could do better but at same I could go for dk tank or necro and do even better than jsut doing fine on nb tank specced for dd, only sets to change from dps to tank and food

"tank" build created for when have no tank willing to go for pledges for example or other dungs and not wanting to wait in queue, have done fine every pledge for now with hm since maybe 2 weeks or almost to weeks with few other nonpledge dlc hm dung, on 3dd ofc to not waste space for healer which wont give enogh buffs to dps to be worth instead of 3rd dd

so nah, I dont buy Your argument for OP he also could dont need to respec his cp to run other role, I understand you prefer to do it but so it is no needed for everyone making many cp just useless like also I guess most people also wont have need to have so many cp for single character to do few roles when they already can or have alts to do other roles
like literally everyone from my trial/pvp guild and most of friend if not everyone, all of them have just alts some or dozen of alts and they have no need to run few roles on single character leaving just more and more cp usless as more of them their are getting if they already sit at 1.5k+ cp

wnights

I’ve started noticing the same thing.

I am at CP1200 and already have most of the options I need from both blue and red trees. This CP is so bizzare and makes CP gain useless for anyone who doesn’t use multiple builds on 1 character.

And even if they did intend for people to switch builds why on earth did they not introduce and easy way to switch cp slottables? Allowing us to have 3-4 presets for each tree would have been more than reasonable.

I really liked the new system at first but I am basically getting discouraged from leveling my CP at this point

Sarannah

Hate to say it, but leveling CP has become entirely useless due to this update. As there is no use for the points anymore, not even some lame CP passives which we can fill out in red/blue. Yet the green tree could use more to fill out the passives. The whole point of the new system, was so we could place the excess points somewhere.

This CP system isn't that great to be honest, and does not leave me wanting to gain more CP. Even though I do try to gain more CP, but this is only to keep my overhead CP-number high. And is not a reflection of how I feel about the CP-system.

Would rather have my idea for how the new CP-system should be: The original 810 CP system back, expanded with a non-gameplay bonussystem on top of that. So every point we gain/place actually matters.

PS: They massively nerfed the damage reduction nodes, avoiding damage nodes, and damage mitigation nodes, so tanks got hit again.

BalticBlues

CP 2.0 made sense, but CP 2.1 turned the system into a joke again.
WITH CP2000 YOU NOW JUST DO NOT CARE ANYMORE.
You are sitting on a heap of CP in blue and red that you just never will use.

Athan1

EpicHero wrote: »

After todays CP nerf on console, I already have over 50 red and over 75 blue useless CP points due to there not being any more passives to put them in, and I don't even have 1800 CP.

Yeahy! You cleared the game.

Seriously though, if there are many stars to invest in, people complain that the skill cap is too high and it takes too much grinding to be competitive.

And when there are fewer stars to invest in, people complain that they have too many CP sitting around.

They can never win, can they?

Everstorm

Athan1 wrote: »

EpicHero wrote: »

After todays CP nerf on console, I already have over 50 red and over 75 blue useless CP points due to there not being any more passives to put them in, and I don't even have 1800 CP.

Yeahy! You cleared the game.

Seriously though, if there are many stars to invest in, people complain that the skill cap is too high and it takes too much grinding to be competitive.

And when there are fewer stars to invest in, people complain that they have too many CP sitting around.

They can never win, can they?

Giving people meaningful ways to improve their character keeps them playing.
Instead they seem to cater the game more and more to brand new players. Like making the overland laughably easy.

Jackey

Having large amount of CP gives you the option to switch slottables without spending 3k for a respec.
If you only play PVE dps you'll have no need for large amounts of CP.
If you do however play other things on the same character you will want to invest in more than 4 slottables.

So if you only have use for one spec, then you did it, you're maxed. Congratulations.

SydneyGrey

They don't have enough passives on any of the trees for my tastes.

EpicHero

If you run multiple builds on one character, it being TANK+DPS or even PVE and PVP builds, then you are much better of to create an extra character for that role.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be useful to be able to do what you want, I'm just saying that the game is not designed for that goal. There is no way to save your gear and skill layout, which would be the first requirement for such an option.
You can get away with some addons on PC, but on console not even that is possible.

So if that would be the intent of having "options" above a certain CP, then the design flaw would be that the game does not support multiple character layouts in it's tooling.

redlink1979

Jackey wrote: »

Having large amount of CP gives you the option to switch slottables without spending 3k for a respec. (...) If you do (...) play other things on the same character you will want to invest in more than 4 slottables. (...)

Exactly. There's a lot of players who run all the content, PvE and PvP, with the same char. Myself included.

iksde

redlink1979 wrote: »

Jackey wrote: »

Having large amount of CP gives you the option to switch slottables without spending 3k for a respec. (...) If you do (...) play other things on the same character you will want to invest in more than 4 slottables. (...)

Exactly. There's a lot of players who run all the content, PvE and PvP, with the same char. Myself included.

I was doing pve and pvp (with cp) content with same setup of cp before rework and I was doing fine
now Im doing my dps role and tank role with also same setup, not a single respec from dd to tank and also doing fine for what I want to go on tank - everything but trials but definitelly basic trials I would be able to do also fine with maybe also few other dlc, chapter trials - at worst I wont give a singe support to group from sets and class anyway - nb, but for sure I will be able to tank it and stay alive without need to respec specially for tank

Xebov

iksde wrote: »

so nah, I dont buy Your argument for OP he also could dont need to respec his cp to run other role, I understand you prefer to do it but so it is no needed for everyone making many cp just useless like also I guess most people also wont have need to have so many cp for single character to do few roles when they already can or have alts to do other roles
like literally everyone from my trial/pvp guild and most of friend if not everyone, all of them have just alts some or dozen of alts and they have no need to run few roles on single character leaving just more and more cp usless as more of them their are getting if they already sit at 1.5k+ cp

If the ppl want to use alts for different roles or gameplay its up to them. Its a valid playstyle. On the other side using several roles on a single Character is also a valid playstyle. If players dont need additional CP its the way it is, many players have all skill points and dont use all of them either. That still doeasnt mean that the game should be changed to invalidate valid playstyles just because ppl cant stand to have unspend reserves. Especially these players would be the first ones to complain when they have to "grind again" when they need more points.

EpicHero wrote: »

If you run multiple builds on one character, it being TANK+DPS or even PVE and PVP builds, then you are much better of to create an extra character for that role.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be useful to be able to do what you want, I'm just saying that the game is not designed for that goal. There is no way to save your gear and skill layout, which would be the first requirement for such an option.
You can get away with some addons on PC, but on console not even that is possible.

So if that would be the intent of having "options" above a certain CP, then the design flaw would be that the game does not support multiple character layouts in it's tooling.

Just because the game does not support any type of loadout system doesnt mean that its not designed with multiple roles per character in mind. The new CP system is a perfect example of multiple role support. Players that have multiple roles can finally do it without paying gold for respecs, while players with single roles of course have the issue of to many spare CP.

If you play a Tank or Healer in group content you are implicitely forced into having a DD build at hand because everything outside of group content is very DD centric, which expecially includes Solo Arenas.

TequilaFire

Heaven help I have to spend gold acquired free in game to respec.
That isn't a good reason for a bad system.

khyrkat

I am over 1200 CP now. Green tree could use some redesign but I care for it only on my thief Khajiit, rest is typical repair/food/enchantment stuff and crafting stuff on my master crafter/gatherer/angler.
But having extra CPs after (another) change I can now finally start to fill all slottables I want for my main because he will have third role. I'm not a fan of nerfs and will never understand why devs punish players for playing long enough to be powerful (isn't it about that, about being a hero with all the power? Have issues with this power go ahead, give me challenging content! Nerf hammer is just lazy excuse for "developing a game"). This is not the first game to do so which is stupid trend, but they kinda encouraged me to play with more builds than I initially intended. All I am waiting for now is loadouts, please, PLEASE for the love of Divines, give us loadouts. Addons will not solve it for everyone (they don't work for me for some reason) and especially now that companions can fill various roles, they need also loadouts AND some solution to gear swapping between characters using them differently.

Xebov

TequilaFire wrote: »

Heaven help I have to spend gold acquired free in game to respec.
That isn't a good reason for a bad system.

Its also not a good argument against a system. The problem here is not respecing, its disrespect for other playstyles.

There are 2 types of players on this game.
One type creates alot of alts for every possible role needed. The other type are players that have way less characters (often just 1-2) but have multiple roles.

Iam from the second group and i have a very complete character. As such i have a good amount of unused skillpoints. Now i could advocate that the devs add more usefull passives so i can dump my skill points. Naturally players of group one would be against it. Why? Because they would just see that they have to put in extra work just to collect the required skillpoints on all of their characters to catch up with players like me. You could see a similar complain surfacing when Psijic came out and players with many characters complained about it because it was not fun to do multiple times.

On the other side players of group two need to put in alot more efford to reach the point where they have enought CP to cover their roles. This means players of group one simply end up with spare CP and they have to live with that. Using respec capabilities as argument to get around this is disrespectful.

Starshadw

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

As for the red and blue trees, IMO there should enough slots available for your chosen role. If I am melee DPS, and have earned the points, I should be able to slot the appropriate abilities and have the less impactful abilities be passives. Same goes for healer and tank.

The problem is that this would simply allow people to go back to what we had before the new system - basically, being able to slot for strong damage, strong tankiness/survivability, AND also have strong healing. (Incidentally, you can still kinda do this, but the new system does prevent it from being as extreme as it was in the original system).

The original CP system was a disaster from the moment it went live, and a number of us pointed it out at the time. We never should have been able to "do all the things!" - we always should have had to choose. So if they were going to add in more slots in this new system to allow folks to slot more active skills, there would have to be a mechanism that prevented folks from re-creating the nightmare we had previously.

I do agree that, as I said above, the new CP system has broken out the various "bits and pieces" of the roles TOO much, which only serves as a fundamental nerf to every single role because as you point out, there aren't enough slots for any role to be able to slot them all. A lot of them are so specialized, they'll likely never be used by anyone, so they are really just a "I have extra points, my passives are all full, guess I'll dump them here" slots. I looked at the new healing sub-tree slots, and was absolutely baffled by them and how ridiculously specialized they were - and I couldn't help but wonder what unmentioned nerf might have happened to the outer healing skills as a result of their creation.

I think they need to roll back to what they had before this most-recent update, and if they want to make sure the folks who are already at 2k and above CP don't overpower newer folks, simply re-instate the CP spend cap. It's a simple solution that doesn't involve continuing to create more active CP skills no one will ever use. All of the passive skills also need to allow for MANY more CP points to go in them. Having them be this low is just frustrating when it comes to continued character progression.

Andre_Noir

I'm somewhat okay with blue and red cp (still don't get why so many def moved from red to blue) BUT that green actives.
Why it's even has SO MANY actives
Did you seen that passive "blah-blah when you got caught on stealing ONCE PER DAY" - and that is an ACTIVE star LOL

Starshadw

Andre_Noir wrote: »

I'm somewhat okay with blue and red cp (still don't get why so many def moved from red to blue) BUT that green actives.
Why it's even has SO MANY actives
Did you seen that passive "blah-blah when you got caught on stealing ONCE PER DAY" - and that is an ACTIVE star LOL

Yes, the green tree actives.... most of them should be passives. Anything that is purely PvE-related (as in, wouldn't give someone a leg up in PvP, like the sneak stuff) should all be passive. There's literally no reason to make them active, except that the devs want us constantly changing our slots - and very few people find that enjoyable. It's exacerbated by there currently being no way to create and save CP loadouts. If they could implement something that allowed folks to create multiple loadouts for each of the three colors that could be swapped independently, that would ease some of the frustration.

Toxic_Hemlock

Starshadw wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

As for the red and blue trees, IMO there should enough slots available for your chosen role. If I am melee DPS, and have earned the points, I should be able to slot the appropriate abilities and have the less impactful abilities be passives. Same goes for healer and tank.

The problem is that this would simply allow people to go back to what we had before the new system - basically, being able to slot for strong damage, strong tankiness/survivability, AND also have strong healing. (Incidentally, you can still kinda do this, but the new system does prevent it from being as extreme as it was in the original system).

snip...

I snipped out parts here, to reply to just this bit. I am not saying I want strong DPS, TANK, and HEALING. I am saying if I choose to say be a stamina DPS that the slotted abilities become relevant to my chosen role.

For example, I won't care about having really good spell penetration so that would not be slotted, however the physical penetration would be much more useful. So with 4 slotables, for example, I would have physical penetration, physical crit chance, stamina regen, and finally physical crit damage. The passives could be increased stamina, armor, and a few others regardless of type of character. If you were to go for a healer/tank role these slots would not be handy for your playstyle, but the passives could still be useful to you.

Being able to "jack of all trades" all the time is of course ridiculous, well save for the green tree as stated above, but with a bit of thought you could make it so your role is more defined without feeling as if the CPP points are wasted.

jle30303

There are too many slottable stars... and most of them completely useless because of their "when the moon is in Virgo and it's a Tuesday" type of conditionals which mean they are very unlikely to fire anyway. I mean, what's better: something that always works, or something that only works occasionally based on conditionals? How many of your average players even know what "while under the effects of crowd control immunity" even MEANS, or how to be in that state so that all the red stars dependent on it even have a chance of working? (Assuming that you need to roll-dodge, sprint or break free while in that state at all.)

Which means that once you've got your basic four slottable stars (usually 200 points in each tree), plus all the passives, then for blue and red, *you won't be swapping them out for anything else*. Not because you're not swapping roles (from dps to tank to healer) but because most of them are irrelevant REGARDLESS of roles.

I mean... in the red tree... 3 of the stars are pretty much automatically taken up by Invigorating, Ironclad and Boundless Vitality, no matter what else you do, which means you only have ONE star left for other stuff. And that one is likely to be either Siphoning Spells or Bloody Renewal depending on whether you're a mag or stam build.

To be quite frank: The "independent" stars in each constellation - the ones which aren't connected by lines to anything else - really ought to be passive, not slottable. For all three. Give players somewhere to go.

The problem is that the devs even WANT to nerf things. This is not a thing that they should be wanting.

The second problem is that they're very, very bad at it, and everything they do, hits middle-ranking players far harder than it hits the top guys anyway.

Starshadw

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

I snipped out parts here, to reply to just this bit. I am not saying I want strong DPS, TANK, and HEALING. I am saying if I choose to say be a stamina DPS that the slotted abilities become relevant to my chosen role.

For example, I won't care about having really good spell penetration so that would not be slotted, however the physical penetration would be much more useful. So with 4 slotables, for example, I would have physical penetration, physical crit chance, stamina regen, and finally physical crit damage. The passives could be increased stamina, armor, and a few others regardless of type of character. If you were to go for a healer/tank role these slots would not be handy for your playstyle, but the passives could still be useful to you.

Being able to "jack of all trades" all the time is of course ridiculous, well save for the green tree as stated above, but with a bit of thought you could make it so your role is more defined without feeling as if the CPP points are wasted.

I grok what you're saying, but my point is that simply giving us more slots that can be filled with active skills (which is what you asked for in your prior post) isn't the answer - because folks would start to slot in actives that weren't solely related to, to use your example, stamina dps. They would start to slot things that would help with self-heals, survivability, etc. That's the crux of the issue.