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Method of the Kill - Companion Rapport Annoyance

lavosslayer
lavosslayer
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I have a huge gripe about companions in a specific situation and I hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears. After acquiring my two companions, I set out on my adventure like always. I sneak up behind an enemy, ambush and kill them with normal abilities and all is well. My companion doesn't care and helps me. However, if I sneak up behind the same enemy and use the Blade of Woe, all of a sudden my companion has a crisis of conscience and I lose rapport. Both actions involve ambushing an opponent and killing them unannounced and yet one is viewed negatively and the other is aided vigorously. Why? I truly find this to be a huge problem because it really shouldn't matter...

Keep in mind my targets are all Red named enemies not white named innocents...
  • Fennwitty
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    Blade of Woe is a Daedric ability of Sithis that sends their souls straight to Oblivion.
    PC NA
  • Everstorm
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    Fennwitty wrote: »
    Blade of Woe is a Daedric ability of Sithis that sends their souls straight to Oblivion.

    Mirri doesn't care if I kill a red target with the vampire ability.
  • lavosslayer
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    Fennwitty wrote: »
    Blade of Woe is a Daedric ability of Sithis that sends their souls straight to Oblivion.

    I get that but it's an enemy. Your statement assumes that Mirri:

    1) Knows enough about the Dark Brotherhood to be able to identify the meaning of using the Blade of Woe
    2) Knows that it is a Daedric-related ability
    3) Cares about the weapon used to dispatch an enemy...

    Pretty sure the answer to at least two of those is a hard NO and the third is most likely as well.

    Obviously as Everstorm just posted, #2 isn't weighted the same way for vampires which are a race of Daedric magic created beings...which makes the entire rapport mechanic seem lazy or at the very least needing work.
  • ADarklore
    ADarklore
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    I have a huge gripe about companions in a specific situation and I hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears. After acquiring my two companions, I set out on my adventure like always. I sneak up behind an enemy, ambush and kill them with normal abilities and all is well. My companion doesn't care and helps me. However, if I sneak up behind the same enemy and use the Blade of Woe, all of a sudden my companion has a crisis of conscience and I lose rapport. Both actions involve ambushing an opponent and killing them unannounced and yet one is viewed negatively and the other is aided vigorously. Why? I truly find this to be a huge problem because it really shouldn't matter...

    Keep in mind my targets are all Red named enemies not white named innocents...

    Well, in one of Bastian's conversations, he mentions his disdain for the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild. So it seems anytime you do anything associated with them, you're going to lose rapport with him.
    CP: 1965 ** ESO+ Gold Road ** ~~ Stamina Arcanist ~~ Magicka Warden ~~ Magicka Templar ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
  • phaneub17_ESO
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    RL we're okay killing the enemy with firearms, explosives, and vehicles but chemical warfare with toxic gas or other harmful agents is heavily condemned. Killing is killing, right? No, there a certain kind of suffering that draws the line and the Blade of Woe or any daedric artifact with a sinister feeling just being around it falls into this category.
  • lavosslayer
    lavosslayer
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    RL we're okay killing the enemy with firearms, explosives, and vehicles but chemical warfare with toxic gas or other harmful agents is heavily condemned. Killing is killing, right? No, there a certain kind of suffering that draws the line and the Blade of Woe or any daedric artifact with a sinister feeling just being around it falls into this category.

    This isn't real life. I don't get why people try to apply RL sentiments to a fantasy game. That kind of saps the fun out of it...and that still doesn't answer the fact that vampires can drink blood from enemies in front of a companion and not get penalized but stabbing someone with a cursed blade makes companions clutch their pearls!?
  • RedMuse
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    Fennwitty wrote: »
    Blade of Woe is a Daedric ability of Sithis that sends their souls straight to Oblivion.

    I get that but it's an enemy. Your statement assumes that Mirri:

    1) Knows enough about the Dark Brotherhood to be able to identify the meaning of using the Blade of Woe
    2) Knows that it is a Daedric-related ability
    3) Cares about the weapon used to dispatch an enemy...

    Pretty sure the answer to at least two of those is a hard NO and the third is most likely as well.

    Obviously as Everstorm just posted, #2 isn't weighted the same way for vampires which are a race of Daedric magic created beings...which makes the entire rapport mechanic seem lazy or at the very least needing work.

    1) Probably no.
    2) This one is to me a maybe. She says she has a lot of knowledge on daedric matters in the pickup quest so she might very well know a daedric spell when she see it.
    3) Why shouldn't she? She comes across as a fairly conscientious person. Did you even pay attention during the quest where you get her? She's clearly opposed to the kind of stuff that send souls straight into the arms of a Daedric Prince ad I should think by extension, Sithis.

    Also does vampiric methods of killing send the soul to Oblivion?
  • MashmalloMan
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    I heard Mirri is okay with assassination and pickpocketing, as long as you don't get caught. Haven't tested it myself.
    PC Beta - 2200+ CP

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  • TE_Noodlefox
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    RedMuse wrote: »
    Fennwitty wrote: »
    Blade of Woe is a Daedric ability of Sithis that sends their souls straight to Oblivion.

    I get that but it's an enemy. Your statement assumes that Mirri:

    1) Knows enough about the Dark Brotherhood to be able to identify the meaning of using the Blade of Woe
    2) Knows that it is a Daedric-related ability
    3) Cares about the weapon used to dispatch an enemy...

    Pretty sure the answer to at least two of those is a hard NO and the third is most likely as well.

    Obviously as Everstorm just posted, #2 isn't weighted the same way for vampires which are a race of Daedric magic created beings...which makes the entire rapport mechanic seem lazy or at the very least needing work.

    1) Probably no.
    2) This one is to me a maybe. She says she has a lot of knowledge on daedric matters in the pickup quest so she might very well know a daedric spell when she see it.
    3) Why shouldn't she? She comes across as a fairly conscientious person. Did you even pay attention during the quest where you get her? She's clearly opposed to the kind of stuff that send souls straight into the arms of a Daedric Prince ad I should think by extension, Sithis.

    Also does vampiric methods of killing send the soul to Oblivion?

    Isn't there a lore book that you can read talking about the Blade of Woe from the perspective of a researcher? I could be wrong, but if there is it wouldn't be too far off to assume that your companion, both of whom are scholars, have probably researched it in some capacity and are able to identify it when you use it.

    Though I imagine the real answer for why is just that it's easier to program the companions to react negatively to the blade of woe in its entirety than try to create exceptions for certain cases. Fewer bugs, fewer ways for the system to break?
  • ApoAlaia
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    Fennwitty wrote: »
    Blade of Woe is a Daedric ability of Sithis that sends their souls straight to Oblivion.

    Blade of Woe cannot be a daedric ability because Sithis is not daedra.

    Sithis has nothing to do with oblivion either, Sithis' domain is The Void.

    I have tried to find information on whether the souls of those killed with the Blade of Woe are 'redirected' anywhere other than where they would normally go upon death but could not find anything specific on the subject.
    Edited by ApoAlaia on June 5, 2021 9:38PM
  • MercilessnVexed
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    In short, if you have to do Dark Brotherhood murder BoW quests, disable your companion and assassinate to your heart's content. At least, until they manage to create a companion that doesn't have a conniption fit with Dark Brotherhood stuff. HOPEFULLY they'll have the sense to include thieving as an "ok" thing for that DB-friendly companion as well.
  • Jeremy
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    I have a huge gripe about companions in a specific situation and I hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears. After acquiring my two companions, I set out on my adventure like always. I sneak up behind an enemy, ambush and kill them with normal abilities and all is well. My companion doesn't care and helps me. However, if I sneak up behind the same enemy and use the Blade of Woe, all of a sudden my companion has a crisis of conscience and I lose rapport. Both actions involve ambushing an opponent and killing them unannounced and yet one is viewed negatively and the other is aided vigorously. Why? I truly find this to be a huge problem because it really shouldn't matter...

    Keep in mind my targets are all Red named enemies not white named innocents...

    Don't even waste your time trying to apply logic to their rapport system. Bastian disapproves of making tea for crying out loud. He's also firmly against stealing of any kind. I can't even pick up a thieves trove without having to hear one of his dorkish lectures. But it's just fine for him to knock his adopted brother unconscious and steal his jewelry. lol

    There is some comedic value in having them so neurotic. But certain play styles (like yours) are just going to be incompatible with them. It was a mistake for them not to release at least one companion who knew how to mind his/her own business. I'm sure they have one in the works, but their companion system would have been better received if they had introduced it with one.
  • SpiritKitten
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    It's because you are assassinating INNOCENTS, not enemies. These are usually innocent people that someone has a grudge against and so hired the Dark Brotherhood to murder them. It's murder, not warfare. Neither companion is okay with this.
  • VaranisArano
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    Mirri's a Daedrologist who studies cults. It's not surprising that she'd recognize the Blade of Woe as part of the Dark Brotherhood. We're a cult worshipping Sithis.

    Also, about her opinion on people being sacrificed by cultists and having their preferred afterlife taken from them...you guys did do her introductory questline, right? She doesn't like it.
    Edited by VaranisArano on June 5, 2021 10:07PM
  • Jeremy
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    It's because you are assassinating INNOCENTS, not enemies. These are usually innocent people that someone has a grudge against and so hired the Dark Brotherhood to murder them. It's murder, not warfare. Neither companion is okay with this.

    The OP says they are talking about red targets (not innocents).
    Edited by Jeremy on June 5, 2021 10:10PM
  • Tigertron
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    I don’t think I have used BoW yet but I definitely have feed on innocents and Mirri does not seem to mind. Even complemented on how much gold I will get after looting a purple.
  • LanteanPegasus
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    ApoAlaia wrote: »
    Fennwitty wrote: »
    Blade of Woe is a Daedric ability of Sithis that sends their souls straight to Oblivion.

    Blade of Woe cannot be a daedric ability because Sithis is not daedra.

    Sithis has nothing to do with oblivion either, Sithis' domain is The Void.

    I have tried to find information on whether the souls of those killed with the Blade of Woe are 'redirected' anywhere other than where they would normally go upon death but could not find anything specific on the subject.

    Let me help out with the last part (from UESP DB quest description):

    When you get the Blade of Woe the NPC says:

    "A tool for dealing death, of course. One forged by unseen hands. The Blade of Woe. Wield it from the shadows and its edge shall deliver your prey to Sithis in the Void."
    "I grant you access to the Blade of Woe. [...] Wield the blade from the shadows and let its edge send your prey to Sithis."

    And that comes after him going on about what a wonderfully ruthless murderer you are, and how great you'll fit their cult of killing people willy nilly for Sithis.

    Also, to shoot someone's soul into the "Outer Darkness" to please some primordial chaos isn't any better in most people's books than giving it to some Daedra. But I guess that's what murderers tell themselves to sleep at night. *shrug*

    So it makes a lot of sense that companions make a difference between simply killing via an ambush, and killing with the Blade of Woe.
  • phairdon
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    Mirri became angry with me after I killed a butterfly. :|



    Your immersion is breaking my entitlement. Buff Sorc's. Darkshroud the cremator Death by furRubeus BlackFluffy knight BladesThe Fat PantherPsijic Fungal SausageFlesheater the VileCaspian Rafferty FernsbyArchfiend Warlock PiersThe Black BishopEvil Wizard Lizard (EU)Neberra Vestige Fajeon (EU)Salanis Deathstick (EU)Blood Mage Alchemist (EU)
  • lavosslayer
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    It's because you are assassinating INNOCENTS, not enemies. These are usually innocent people that someone has a grudge against and so hired the Dark Brotherhood to murder them. It's murder, not warfare. Neither companion is okay with this.

    Someone didn't read the entire OP...:)
  • lavosslayer
    lavosslayer
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    Jeremy wrote: »
    I have a huge gripe about companions in a specific situation and I hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears. After acquiring my two companions, I set out on my adventure like always. I sneak up behind an enemy, ambush and kill them with normal abilities and all is well. My companion doesn't care and helps me. However, if I sneak up behind the same enemy and use the Blade of Woe, all of a sudden my companion has a crisis of conscience and I lose rapport. Both actions involve ambushing an opponent and killing them unannounced and yet one is viewed negatively and the other is aided vigorously. Why? I truly find this to be a huge problem because it really shouldn't matter...

    Keep in mind my targets are all Red named enemies not white named innocents...

    Don't even waste your time trying to apply logic to their rapport system. Bastian disapproves of making tea for crying out loud. He's also firmly against stealing of any kind. I can't even pick up a thieves trove without having to hear one of his dorkish lectures. But it's just fine for him to knock his adopted brother unconscious and steal his jewelry. lol

    There is some comedic value in having them so neurotic. But certain play styles (like yours) are just going to be incompatible with them. It was a mistake for them not to release at least one companion who knew how to mind his/her own business. I'm sure they have one in the works, but their companion system would have been better received if they had introduced it with one.

    This is definitely the best answer so far to the situation. I completely agree too that them not releasing a companion that plays well with the darker side of the game is kind of a kick in the pants for those of us that play that way. Good thing is, I can do everything I want with Mirri tagging along as long as I avoid the BoW. I can deal with that as a whole for now, but we definitely need a companion that plays well with the Dark Brotherhood types like me.
  • ArchangelIsraphel
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    Jeremy wrote: »
    It's because you are assassinating INNOCENTS, not enemies. These are usually innocent people that someone has a grudge against and so hired the Dark Brotherhood to murder them. It's murder, not warfare. Neither companion is okay with this.

    The OP says they are talking about red targets (not innocents).

    You can use it on some humanoid targets that are not considered innocent, but not all. It's very specific. For example it will work on most Dremora, but you can't kill random monsters with it.

    I'm assuming the companions being against it has to do with the fact that the blade specifically sends the soul to sithis and it isn't simply a death. (you'd think they'd have trouble with necormancers and sorcerers in this case, and anything a nightblade does, but ah well)
    Legends never die
    They're written down in eternity
    But you'll never see the price it costs
    The scars collected all their lives
    When everything's lost, they pick up their hearts and avenge defeat
    Before it all starts, they suffer through harm just to touch a dream
    Oh, pick yourself up, 'cause
    Legends never die
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