Is Betty Netch OP?

deathbytiki

After mentioning this to a few people I wanted to push it you to the greater community and see what you all think. I might be a little biased but I have some fair points.

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@deathbytiki calm down. it purges 1 negative effect. you what how much damage you get for that GCD? nuttin. you know what i've never seen on my death recap? betty netch.

It doesn't have to do damage to be incredibly strong. Look at it this way, any ability that uses DoT usually has very little initial damage if anything... meaning the ability is primarily intended to "do its thing" over time. Every DoT I've seen costs stam/mag and requires a spot on a bar. Fundamentally, that ability being FREE and capable of being used as many times as you can hit it means you're not only negating any damage from the DoT but also gaining a substantial advantage in any fight based on how much you spam the FREE ability! Name any other ability that can give you that kind of over all advantage at no cost.

ALSO, consider champion point implications of this FREE ability too... like "Salve of Renewal: When you remove a negative effect from yourself or an ally, you heal them and allies within an 8 meter radius of them for 1280 Health per stage. 5 stages max, at 10 points per stage." Just by pressing that ONE FREE ability you can do all of the following:

1- Gain 20% increased weapon and spell damage
2- Remove any negative effect on activation OR evey 5s
2- Negate any damge based on mechanics identified as DoT
3- Effectively drain opponent resources faster than ANY passive or active ability by comparison
4- Gain stam or mag recovery for duration of ability (but it's free so basically infinitely)
5- AND you can get burst heals of almost 6k in an 8m radius from Champions points?!?!

I honestly don't know how this ability is FREE and I think it is wholly overpowered when compared to any other ability across the classes.

Amottica

deathbytiki wrote: »

ALSO, consider champion point implications of this FREE ability too... .

It is not free. Time is very costly in PvP and the use of the skill costs time.

Lughlongarm

Amottica wrote: »

deathbytiki wrote: »

ALSO, consider champion point implications of this FREE ability too... .

It is not free. Time is very costly in PvP and the use of the skill costs time.

-Not only time, it costs resources as well. When you spam your netch your are not receiving any recourses from it as it starts giving resources only 1 sec after activation. Basically purging 3 times costs 3 globals and 530 stamina/magicka.

-This topic was brought up tons of times, I already showed on another post just like this one, how skills like Rune Focus and dark deal, and many other skills in the game, are at least as potent and loaded as the netch skill.

-The funny thing is, I think that what bothers ppl the most with netch is the supposedly, 0 cost. If natch were to give 5.5k resources over the duration with an initial cost of 500 magicka/stamina it wouldn't have been brought up so often.

If that what will make ppl to just stop with bringing this issue over and over again, sure, I will support the change.

Mythreindeer

No, it isn't OP.

No more than a dozen other skills.

Tommy_The_Gun

Remember how Dark Cloak was invisibility + purge (While Shadowy Disguise is invisibility + crit) ? I would argue that it was less OP, since it costed something and was not cost-free "passive" that works for x seconds while active.

And yet it was nerfed...

Amottica wrote: »

deathbytiki wrote: »

ALSO, consider champion point implications of this FREE ability too... .

It is not free. Time is very costly in PvP and the use of the skill costs time.

We don't have a "lol" button on forums, so here, have an "awesome" from me.

ESO_Nightingale

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

deathbytiki wrote: »

ALSO, consider champion point implications of this FREE ability too... .

It is not free. Time is very costly in PvP and the use of the skill costs time.

-Not only time, it costs resources as well. When you spam your netch your are not receiving any recourses from it as it starts giving resources only 1 sec after activation. Basically purging 3 times costs 3 globals and 530 stamina/magicka.

-This topic was brought up tons of times, I already showed on another post just like this one, how skills like Rune Focus and dark deal, and many other skills in the game, are at least as potent and loaded as the netch skill.

-The funny thing is, I think that what bothers ppl the most with netch is the supposedly, 0 cost. If natch were to give 5.5k resources over the duration with an initial cost of 500 magicka/stamina it wouldn't have been brought up so often.

If that what will make ppl to just stop with bringing this issue over and over again, sure, I will support the change.

i'd rather them get rid of the autopurge. but keep the one upon cast. Our sustain feels bad even with a sustain set on, when on paper we have great regens. Most of the recent points that people try to bring up show just how little they really know/care to understand about our class, yes, blast is currently way overtuned. i support removing the morph's healing and defensive stun entirely, if it was instead worked into an offensive ranged stun that kept it's current aoe dot and added a good burst damage component, while living trellis would be buffed by around 50% to make it on par with blessing of restoration's burst heal (still much worse than resistant flesh and breath of life), I also support removing minor berserk, minor vulnerability and the magic damage bonus, but only provided we actually had another good magicka warden damage skill frost damage deep fissure, and if dive was made to be a decent spammable since it's currently really badly designed.

Vevvev

I find it annoying as a DK when it purges my DoTs, but if the person is spamming is exclusively to purge my DoTs they're not healing, doing damage, or actually being effective since it's only one effect instead of 3 the other purges come with. It's a purge over time and you cast it once and never cast it again till it's timer is up. It's not that strong and fullfills the same roll Degeneration does on my build. A cheap ability to boost spell damage and come with a small additional effect that has a very small impact on the actual fight itself.

Fennwitty

Not overpowered on its own but Wardens have a very robust toolkit with netch being a huge piece of it in PvP. This isn't really an unusual observation on your part, it's generally accepted.

LightYagami

Amottica wrote: »

deathbytiki wrote: »

ALSO, consider champion point implications of this FREE ability too... .

It is not free. Time is very costly in PvP and the use of the skill costs time.

What about almost all other classes not only take time but also REAL stamina / magicka / health costs?

The fact is clear, with ONE spammable ZERO cost skill, you have:

1. Purge with ZERO cost
2. Major Brutality and Sorcery for ZERO cost
3. Stamina / Magicka regen for ZERO cost
4. Health regen from the Animal Companions skill line passive that you can spam netch for ZERO cost

Can ZOS please add some skills like netch to other classes? I'm happy to have the "time cost" but ZERO real cost. Thanks.


https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Betty_Netch_(skill)

Starlight_Knight

Short answer: YES its OP !

Long answer is; As a warden main, there is NO build that wouldnt run netch, its over loaded, used on tanks, healers and dps - stam and mag.

Its ugly as hell as well! and we're all forced to use the darn thing.

Syrpynt

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

Short answer: YES its OP !

Long answer is; As a warden main, there is NO build that wouldnt run netch, its over loaded, used on tanks, healers and dps - stam and mag.

Its ugly as hell as well! and we're all forced to use the darn thing.

LOL totally agree. I avoid the animal abilities because I'd rather just have:
• No Cliff Racer -- but a wild Magical Senche leaping at enemies from a wrist flick--kinda like how Selene does it. Alternative morph: It's a giant bat that flies in and does bleed damage.
• No Shalk -- But vipers (poison or interrupt morphs) slithering across the ground in the same pattern as the Shalk do now, for AoE damage.
• No Betty Netch -- A Nixad or an Imp (possible morphs).

Like... The fact they themed Warden animals solely around "Morrowind" creatures feels so forced. Like they were told to "Only make the class' animal summons completely themed around the DLC zone we are launching it in! We aren't pitting ourselves too niche with respect to our TES druid/ranger players!" /s

Starlight_Knight

Yep, so true, the pet system on wardens mostly but sorcs as well is in dire need of a re-work.

They teased us and baited us warden mains in with the gray bear skin implying there would be more of them coming.

I would like to see the warden as a true tamer class and have access to other pets all around, wild themed you can catch and use, keeping the mechanics the same just changing the visusals.
The sorc needs to be a similar thing only with deadric summoning, so anything deadric can be a bet, eg, instead of a massive annoying flappy chicken thing they can have a flame atronach. etc.

IMO the warden feels unfinished and clunky - nobody enjoys being forced to run netch and nobody likes cliffracer as a spammable.

Like a lot of things in eso, its just enough to get you in but no refinment afterwards.

Ragnarock41

Amottica wrote: »

deathbytiki wrote: »

ALSO, consider champion point implications of this FREE ability too... .

It is not free. Time is very costly in PvP and the use of the skill costs time.

Would you like to compare it with molten* armaments or igneous weapons?

Skander

The purge shound't be there but otherwise it's fine

ResidentContrarian

When they changed it to purge and nerfed steadfast hero, at that time many people complained about the skill's change but it was not reverted.

Do I think it is OP?

Yes, especially when you consider it's on the same class with artic blast...

Veg

Just gonna leave this here... lol

MashmalloMan

I think it's silly to look at skills in a vaccum, if that was the correct course of action for every skill.. none of the classes would have ANY class identity whatsoever. This is a class defining skill the same way frags/curse/streak is for mag sorcs or hurricane/dark deal/crit surge is for stam sorcs.

You could say the same for any class, theres 3-5 skills that jump out in a vaccum as offering more than other similar skills, even from other classes. Direct comparisons SUCK.

To the note of Betty.

1) Getting 4400 mag/stam over 25s is what.. 2 free skill casts? Sustain is important, but you could just as easily build for no sustain and ALL burst and be much more effective at killing people in and out of combat instead of brawling. A sustain tool is a sustain tool.

Warden's also only have 2 sustain passives of which are pretty weak. 12% mag/stam regen and 100 mag/stam on a 1s CD from healing someone is pretty shite.

Necro for example has 200 mag/stam regen which when buffed is probably around 300, even more depending on your build. To get 300 regen out of 12% on Warden, you'd need a base regen of 2500. This is absolutely unheard of, no one invests this much regen BEFORE modifiers, with modifiers thats like 4000+ regen.

You could do the same comparison for Sorcs having 6% cost reduction, 10% mag regen, 20% stam regen, 15% cost reduction for blocking, etc etc etc.

Hey! What about Crit Surge... Vigor heals 13k health over 4s, but Crit Surge heals 108k health over 33s. HOW OP!?

So no, Betty covers something that Warden's don't have passively in their kit, which is why it's used on every build.

2) It purges 1 effect at a time. If someone is actually spamming this while being attacked for defense, they're dead meat. A Templar spends 4k mag and can purge 5 effects in 1 GCD, provide a synergy for team mates with a purge/burst heal, provides you and your team a gigantic AOE HOT, gives teammates 2 Ult when they're healed under 50% hp, grants you minor mending while in or leaving the ring for 4s as well as granting 10% block mitigation while in the ring.

A DK venomous claw will apply 3 effects. The dot itself, poisoned and snare. So what the hell does a Warden spamming betty actually help them in that scenario, they're being attacked lol.

Again, this isn't to say Ritual is OP, it's to say every class has class defining skills that can be considered OP depending on how you look at it. You can literally twist any skill to appear OP when you put it a certain way like OP's 5 points.

HankTwo

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Warden's also only have 2 sustain passives of which are pretty weak. 12% mag/stam regen and 100 mag/stam on a 1s CD from healing someone is pretty shite.

Nature's Gift II: When you heal an ally with a Green Balance ability, you gain 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina, whichever resource pool is lower. This effect can occur once every 1 second.

KingExecration

I’m a fan of abilities like siphoning strikes that reward good use of up time to get the most of it.
What about netch purging more the longer it’s up? So instead of being the copy paste of cauterize every set amount of seconds it does something, it now could purge 2 effects after 3 seconds and ramp up more effects through the duration? Not a fan of blanket nerfs and prefer abilities to get changes that keep them relevant and useful.

Not a warden player so my spitball idea could be horrible.

ESO_Nightingale

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I think it's silly to look at skills in a vaccum, if that was the correct course of action for every skill.. none of the classes would have ANY class identity whatsoever. This is a class defining skill the same way frags/curse/streak is for mag sorcs or hurricane/dark deal/crit surge is for stam sorcs.

You could say the same for any class, theres 3-5 skills that jump out in a vaccum as offering more than other similar skills, even from other classes. Direct comparisons SUCK.

To the note of Betty.

1) Getting 4400 mag/stam over 25s is what.. 2 free skill casts? Sustain is important, but you could just as easily build for no sustain and ALL burst and be much more effective at killing people in and out of combat instead of brawling. A sustain tool is a sustain tool.

Warden's also only have 2 sustain passives of which are pretty weak. 12% mag/stam regen and 100 mag/stam on a 1s CD from healing someone is pretty shite.

Necro for example has 200 mag/stam regen which when buffed is probably around 300, even more depending on your build. To get 300 regen out of 12% on Warden, you'd need a base regen of 2500. This is absolutely unheard of, no one invests this much regen BEFORE modifiers, with modifiers thats like 4000+ regen.

You could do the same comparison for Sorcs having 6% cost reduction, 10% mag regen, 20% stam regen, 15% cost reduction for blocking, etc etc etc.

Hey! What about Crit Surge... Vigor heals 13k health over 4s, but Crit Surge heals 108k health over 33s. HOW OP!?

So no, Betty covers something that Warden's don't have passively in their kit, which is why it's used on every build.

2) It purges 1 effect at a time. If someone is actually spamming this while being attacked for defense, they're dead meat. A Templar spends 4k mag and can purge 5 effects in 1 GCD, provide a synergy for team mates with a purge/burst heal, provides you and your team a gigantic AOE HOT, gives teammates 2 Ult when they're healed under 50% hp, grants you minor mending while in or leaving the ring for 4s as well as granting 10% block mitigation while in the ring.

A DK venomous claw will apply 3 effects. The dot itself, poisoned and snare. So what the hell does a Warden spamming betty actually help them in that scenario, they're being attacked lol.

Again, this isn't to say Ritual is OP, it's to say every class has class defining skills that can be considered OP depending on how you look at it. You can literally twist any skill to appear OP when you put it a certain way like OP's 5 points.

Warden's not allowed to have anything nice according to these people. You literally cannot argue with them and compare class passives and skills, because they don't have much going on up there.

Starlight_Whisper

Warden has OP utility in general compared to other classes with similar skills.

lucky_Sage

Syrpynt wrote: »

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

Short answer: YES its OP !

Long answer is; As a warden main, there is NO build that wouldnt run netch, its over loaded, used on tanks, healers and dps - stam and mag.

Its ugly as hell as well! and we're all forced to use the darn thing.

LOL totally agree. I avoid the animal abilities because I'd rather just have:
• No Cliff Racer -- but a wild Magical Senche leaping at enemies from a wrist flick--kinda like how Selene does it. Alternative morph: It's a giant bat that flies in and does bleed damage.
• No Shalk -- But vipers (poison or interrupt morphs) slithering across the ground in the same pattern as the Shalk do now, for AoE damage.
• No Betty Netch -- A Nixad or an Imp (possible morphs).

Like... The fact they themed Warden animals solely around "Morrowind" creatures feels so forced. Like they were told to "Only make the class' animal summons completely themed around the DLC zone we are launching it in! We aren't pitting ourselves too niche with respect to our TES druid/ranger players!" /s

Same I don’t like the theme of them maybe they could allow players to pick more maybe race specific I would definitely want something not dark elf themed not of fun of that race least favorite race in the game and lore

AinSoph

The lower the skill cost, the more broken it is apparently. Let's not mention any details because those don't matter, only the cost.

Vildebill

Veg wrote: »

Just gonna leave this here... lol

Smexykins

Ah yes, let's nerf more classes instead of buffing the others. That'll do the game well.

Finedaible

Maybe slightly overloaded, but Netch isn't overpowered within the scope of Warden's toolkit.

I do think it is insulting to have taken purge from cloak though when this skill exists.

Remathilis

PvP would be better if my class was buffed and all the other classes were nerfed.

Luckylancer

I always say this when I see "nerf the squid" post.

If you remove bull netch, warden won't be that much weaker.

Everyone bash on it because it is free. I bet those who complain about it free doesn't even know the term global cooldown. Arguing with those who don't know GCD won't lead to anywhere.

If there were no netch, rally would give the needed 20% weapon damage on top of the all mighty rally heal.

Ragnarock41

Luckylancer wrote: »

I always say this when I see "nerf the squid" post.

If you remove bull netch, warden won't be that much weaker.

Everyone bash on it because it is free. I bet those who complain about it free doesn't even know the term global cooldown. Arguing with those who don't know GCD won't lead to anywhere.

If there were no netch, rally would give the needed 20% weapon damage on top of the all mighty rally heal.

Global cooldowns exist for every single ability in this game.

HankTwo

Imo they should just remove the passive purge every 5 seconds. Its dumb rng and at times can completely wreck the offensive combo of certain classes out of sheer luck (when it removes say curse when a sorc tries to combo or venomous claw before it can build up damage), while at other times it just removes some pretty irrelevant minor debuff. Neither the skill nor the class need this to function well.

Other than that, I would keep the skill as it is, including the one time purge on cast.

ThePianist

Stop with the nerf warden threads. The same people complaining about “free damage” proc sets are now complaining about a skill from an enemy opponent. A skill that is doing no harm on your part.

Free damage this, free sustain that, free purges that...If you want pvp abilities to be sophisticated like in Invoker from Dota, go play chess.