magwarden is too strong in pts

Lughlongarm

Urzigurumash wrote: »

About this MagDK vs MagDen Burst Potential, according to my perception:

In overall effectiveness, Meteor is closer to Leap than Proxy Det is to Deep Fissure, even if only because of Proxy's 8 second delay. So, a Warden with Meteor + Deep Fissure has probably more Burst Potential than a MagDK with Leap + Proxy.

It appears the intent of Deep Breath was mostly as a heal for "tanks", ala Crimson, Leeching, Bahara's, Glorious Defender.

Nothing could increase the relative strength of DK over Warden more than a nerf to Dawny and Meteor.

Still, when it comes to MagDK vs MagDen Burst, we're talking about Burst on the two most "Pressure" oriented classes. In this case, I find Northern Storm to be a bit more Pressure-inducing than Standard in most cases - but maybe less than Corrosive, if we bring Stam into the picture. We tend not to wait around for Corrosive on StamDK, in favor of Leap, whereas most MagDens seem to spend most of their Ult on Northern Storm, so the latter is responsible for more actual pressure in-game, even if maybe slightly weaker at inducing it.

Anyhow, if I could make just one change to Warden to try and tone it down without ruining it, I would just make Netch cost around 2k Health, like Necro's Expunge. This provides a nice check on Necro's ability to repeatedly purge under pressure.

The difference between theoretical to practical.
Warden has no reliant range unblockable CC skill to setup a meteor combo. This is one of the reason it is much easier to setup a burst combo with MagDK. Northen storm is such an easy skill to avoid, especially to medium armor toons.
Magden lacks pressure capability and therefore forced into proc sets, major evasion just counter most of the Warden's tool kit.

Goregrinder

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

Can you also stop with this paid/dlc nonsense ?
Warden and Necro are 1500 crown, one month of eso+ , soooo expensive right?

I would rather gift those classes to everyone so as not to have to read once more this whining about paid classes

$15 is also about how much Two combo meals cost at a burger joint. Just forgo two fast food meals and BAM...you just unlocked Necro, or Warden.

nukk3r

Goregrinder wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

Can you also stop with this paid/dlc nonsense ?
Warden and Necro are 1500 crown, one month of eso+ , soooo expensive right?

I would rather gift those classes to everyone so as not to have to read once more this whining about paid classes

$15 is also about how much Two combo meals cost at a burger joint. Just forgo two fast food meals and BAM...you just unlocked Necro, or Warden.

Not to mention that Vvardenfell and Warden class are parts of Standard Edition which has been the default version for several years now, you simply can't not have it if you bought the game after 2017, and virtually everyone owns Elsweyr.

Urzigurumash

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

About this MagDK vs MagDen Burst Potential, according to my perception:

In overall effectiveness, Meteor is closer to Leap than Proxy Det is to Deep Fissure, even if only because of Proxy's 8 second delay. So, a Warden with Meteor + Deep Fissure has probably more Burst Potential than a MagDK with Leap + Proxy.

It appears the intent of Deep Breath was mostly as a heal for "tanks", ala Crimson, Leeching, Bahara's, Glorious Defender.

Nothing could increase the relative strength of DK over Warden more than a nerf to Dawny and Meteor.

Still, when it comes to MagDK vs MagDen Burst, we're talking about Burst on the two most "Pressure" oriented classes. In this case, I find Northern Storm to be a bit more Pressure-inducing than Standard in most cases - but maybe less than Corrosive, if we bring Stam into the picture. We tend not to wait around for Corrosive on StamDK, in favor of Leap, whereas most MagDens seem to spend most of their Ult on Northern Storm, so the latter is responsible for more actual pressure in-game, even if maybe slightly weaker at inducing it.

Anyhow, if I could make just one change to Warden to try and tone it down without ruining it, I would just make Netch cost around 2k Health, like Necro's Expunge. This provides a nice check on Necro's ability to repeatedly purge under pressure.

The difference between theoretical to practical.
Warden has no reliant range unblockable CC skill to setup a meteor combo. This is one of the reason it is much easier to setup a burst combo with MagDK. Northen storm is such an easy skill to avoid, especially to medium armor toons.
Magden lacks pressure capability and therefore forced into proc sets, major evasion just counter most of the Warden's tool kit.

Fossilize is melee range though

Arguably MagDen has more access to ranged stun via Cliff Racer + Heavy Attack, or no? Not saying it's anywhere on par with Fossilize, but it's 4x the range. As for theoretical vs practical, I was talking about "potential", so that's a bit theoretical to begin with, so we're not considering blocking, dodging, the cast time on Leap, etc. I'd take the argument that DK has a more reliable burst, absolutely. More or less on DK we're sitting pretty once every 100 Ult, it's the time in between when things get hectic, and when DK would very much enjoy something as strong as Deep Fissure.

I'm aware Cliff Racer has a 98% chance of being dodged (that should be fixed, I think). So yes, this comparison was all theoretical, being about "potential". As for other non-practical, theoretical sources of burst, MagDen has a nice bonus to Crit Damage via Glacial Presence, that happens to go well with Minor Breach also. I'm aware most MagDens have been in Malacath, but, there's some potential there that MagDK doesn't have.

I agree that MagDen has been stronger on paper than it's been in actuality. I really only meant to indicate that MagDen has a much higher "ceiling" for burst than DK does, since all DK has over Warden is Leap and an unblockable melee stun.

Hexquisite

With no mention of Powerlash or just plain flame lash, I find it hard to take this thread seriously.

I play both Magden and MagDk.

Magden has no class execute. In fact my magden only usually carries 4 Warden skills.. Everything else is destruction staff, resto staff, alliance war,, and mages guild skills. My Magden does pretty good DPS, a lot of times top in group...but none of it is burst which is better for pvp. I know she is bottom tier in PVP. Still she is my main alt I play because of potential group utilities if needed.

My stamden is so easy button compared to my magden, I have to work 3 times as hard on magden, to get the same amount of kills.

My MagDK kills so many people with powerlash. Also my MagDK uses all DK skills, and occasionally resto ult or destro ult, I kill more people with power lash than leap. But still while my MagDK, has more burst than my magden, it comes no where near to doing the Dps my Stamden does.

Now, I could make a super troll build out of either of these, but again, it wouldn't be troll because of their class skills. It would be because of current game mechanics that went live today.

Urzigurumash

Hexquisite wrote: »

With no mention of Powerlash or just plain flame lash, I find it hard to take this thread seriously.

It's single target, so, it has a limit to its potential that Deep Fissure does not.

So we're clear, by far the most burst potential is in MagCro.

Hexquisite

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Hexquisite wrote: »

With no mention of Powerlash or just plain flame lash, I find it hard to take this thread seriously.

It's single target, so, it has a limit to its potential that Deep Fissure does not.

So we're clear, by far the most burst potential is in MagCro.

I guess you all are thinking big groups. OP post was a duel..

Deep Fissure is so delayed that most good players can Dodge it. But DK dots are immediate, so that pressure with the burst of Leap and Powerlash, should take out multiple enemies, proving the player knows how to play Magdk.

Urzigurumash

Hexquisite wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Hexquisite wrote: »

With no mention of Powerlash or just plain flame lash, I find it hard to take this thread seriously.

It's single target, so, it has a limit to its potential that Deep Fissure does not.

So we're clear, by far the most burst potential is in MagCro.

I guess you all are thinking big groups. OP post was a duel..

Deep Fissure is so delayed that most good players can Dodge it. But DK dots are immediate, so that pressure with the burst of Leap and Powerlash, should take out multiple enemies, proving the player knows how to play Magdk.

Big groups, small groups. If we stay on this MagDen vs MagDK comparison, it's been true for a while now that MagDK gets stronger the closer you get to 1v1, and MagDen gets stronger the larger the XvX.

Dueling on a DK against a purger with strong healing can be underwhelming.

Point of all my posts in this thread was just about this DK vs Den comparison and the idea that MagDen has low burst potential. From what I've seen, in XvX settings, MagDen has probably the 2nd strongest burst among Mag classes, after MagCro, and with Stam in the picture, 4th strongest, after MagCro, StamDen, and StamCro. I wasn't commenting as to whether MagDen needs a nerf, more that DK needs a buff for XvX, but I could accept MagDen getting a buff for 1v1 in exchange.

monkiie

Imagine complaining about magden when stam necro exists lmao