Being a tank in this game makes you feel so helpless...

MoreTune

Full Group support tank here in perfected yolnahkrin and powerful assault.
I swap out encratis vs tremorscale based on group in dungeons.

My build literally focuses around buffing group dps and yet I’m stuck in dungeons holding aggro for 3-5 minutes per boss fight.

Meanwhile I swap to my dps toon and clear dungeons in 5 minutes.

The reason why people queue as fake tanks is because as a real tank you feel helpless. You just sit there holding block hoping that group dps isn’t subpar. But 75-80% of the time it is.

redspecter23

You seem to have high expectations from completely random players. My expectation is that they occasionally point their weapons toward enemy targets and know where the left mouse button is. I'm still disappointed more often that I'd like to be.

Starlight_Whisper

Werewolf tank is your answer.

Join the revolution 🤘

phaneub17_ESO

I don't make tanks anymore, but I do make "tanky" characters that solo world bosses and the like. They're basically a variant of my Magicka DDs except with heavy armor and a couple of defensive skills, way more fun.

VaranisArano

I can't say I feel particularly helpless when I'm tanking for a group with low DPS, but that's because often those are the groups who need a good tank more than they know. I might feel like I'm working hard for comparatively little gain, but that's not quite the same.

Now, the times I feel helpless as a tank are when an untauntable red phase Centurion starts chasing a DD, who starts running and screaming "Tank?!! in chat. Believe me, I'd pull it off you if I could.

Oliviander

I really like tanking but
I prefer to avoid to be to selfless in PUGs doing dungeons.
There are no group buffs needed in dungeons.
Take your Worldboss build in there and do some damage for yourself.
If this doesn't work it is definitely not your fault.

Nestor

Is this a:

I am better than everyone else thread?

or

No one is up to my standards thread?








5 Minutes to clear a dungeon? Video or did not happen.

LettuceBrain

Nestor wrote: »

Is this a:

I am better than everyone else thread?

or

No one is up to my standards thread?








5 Minutes to clear a dungeon? Video or did not happen.

All of the above.

Integral1900

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I don't make tanks anymore, but I do make "tanky" characters that solo world bosses and the like. They're basically a variant of my Magicka DDs except with heavy armor and a couple of defensive skills, way more fun.

Awesome, I knew I wasn’t the only one! 🤩

Jeremy

MoreTune wrote: »

Full Group support tank here in perfected yolnahkrin and powerful assault.
I swap out encratis vs tremorscale based on group in dungeons.

My build literally focuses around buffing group dps and yet I’m stuck in dungeons holding aggro for 3-5 minutes per boss fight.

Meanwhile I swap to my dps toon and clear dungeons in 5 minutes.

The reason why people queue as fake tanks is because as a real tank you feel helpless. You just sit there holding block hoping that group dps isn’t subpar. But 75-80% of the time it is.

I've never felt helpless as a tank (and I play a real one). So I can't relate to your post.

Maybe try building a more offensive tank for dungeons if not doing a lot of damage makes you feel so helpless. That's all I can think to say.

jssriot

Oliviander wrote: »

I
There are no group buffs needed in dungeons.

*gasp* How dare you!

LOL.

You said the thing that no one is suppose to say out loud. How are the gatekeepers going to gatekeep people who want to play tanks or healers now??? Awww.

Oh my bad. Yes, tanks and healers, you MUST get this and that and that other set to give the group buffs. Absolutely a requirement for any good tank or healer. Just ignore all the people who clear these dungeons with groups of 3-4 dps when they don't want to bother with getting on their tanks or healers because they know well that this content doesn't need all that.

Xebov

Simple thing, the group either has enought DPS to get through a dungeon fluidly or it doesnt. If it doesnt i simply go. Plain, Simple and Painless.

mocap

buffing 2 random dds not a good idea. It will not rise their dps that much like in trials.
Run 2 or even 3 presets with your tank and switch depening on what group you get:
- full support tank;
- full self sustain tank (HP and resources). Current update you can make a wanderful health regen tank;
- hybrid tank/dd. Make sure you now mechanics and what you are doing. Sorc is best for this, imo.

In such case your tank will be ready for any situations with PUGs.

PigofSteel

I usually offheal and still do 20-30k on bosses but still feels like both DD togheter have 5k dps. Well thats my answer to low dps...

Narvuntien

Try only playing with people from the guild you can trust.

Fennwitty

MoreTune wrote: »

The reason why people queue as fake tanks is because as a real tank you feel helpless. You just sit there holding block hoping that group dps isn’t subpar. But 75-80% of the time it is.

I think the conclusion is incorrect here.

If there were more capable DPS queuing as DPS then you would have had a better chance of getting one of them.

Poor gameplay experience as a tank is more likely one contributor to why there are few tanks in general in this game. The low percentage of real tanks then contributes to fake tanks existing at all.

cyclonus11

Sometimes you also have to provide direction. Like "when the blue glowy goes away, stop attacking the lurcher and start attacking the thing in the middle."

^ actual example

NeillMcAttack

Another one of these threads! Anyway,

There is a common misconception with players. They think because they are not a healer or a tank, that they are by default, a DPS, it's not true, you can also just be completely useless....

zvavi

A good tank can almost double group damage on trash packs by stacking them well, and add lots of damage by debuffing boss, and carry groups hard. I have been pugging fv a lot during this month, and I got it all, dds that are ok, dds that are great, dds that are clueless, dds that think they can teach you to tank, etc etc. I even had 2 groups, with sub 200 CP players (don't ask me how). Most of the runs i completed it with minimal wipes (including the 2 runs with the low cp's). Was it painful? Sometimes. Am I burnt in tanking again? Ye.

The choice is obvious though, go dd and expect no buffs from tank, or go tank and expect no experience from dds. Because well, the majority of the player base has learnt from overland.

Kadraeus

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Another one of these threads! Anyway,

There is a common misconception with players. They think because they are not a healer or a tank, that they are by default, a DPS, it's not true, you can also just be completely useless....

I'm sure you're joking, but being "useless" as a dps is still a dps. By definition, you will still be dealing damage regardless of whether you think it's a good amount of damage. The only way you wouldn't be a dps is if you're doing zero damage at all. Is that even possible considering this is a game built around killing things and to kill things you have to, you know, deal damage? That of course means that even if your level is low you will still do damage. It just may not be much damage.

zvavi

Kadraeus wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Another one of these threads! Anyway,

There is a common misconception with players. They think because they are not a healer or a tank, that they are by default, a DPS, it's not true, you can also just be completely useless....

I'm sure you're joking, but being "useless" as a dps is still a dps. By definition, you will still be dealing damage regardless of whether you think it's a good amount of damage. The only way you wouldn't be a dps is if you're doing zero damage at all. Is that even possible considering this is a game built around killing things and to kill things you have to, you know, deal damage? That of course means that even if your level is low you will still do damage. It just may not be much damage.

This argument is one I heard many times. You are not a fake tank because you take damage even if you don't taunt bosses. You are not fake healer because your passives heals you therefore you have heals. /Sarcasm

It is not fair to expect things from tanks and healers. But expect nothing from dds. Dds are damage dealers. Their role is to deal lots of damage. Tanks roll is to control the battlefield. Healer's role is to support everyone as much as he can, including resources.
If you don't deal more damage than a tank in 3 support sets that applies crusher to boss and stacks adds, you are a fake dd.

Kadraeus

zvavi wrote: »

Kadraeus wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Another one of these threads! Anyway,

There is a common misconception with players. They think because they are not a healer or a tank, that they are by default, a DPS, it's not true, you can also just be completely useless....

I'm sure you're joking, but being "useless" as a dps is still a dps. By definition, you will still be dealing damage regardless of whether you think it's a good amount of damage. The only way you wouldn't be a dps is if you're doing zero damage at all. Is that even possible considering this is a game built around killing things and to kill things you have to, you know, deal damage? That of course means that even if your level is low you will still do damage. It just may not be much damage.

This argument is one I heard many times. You are not a fake tank because you take damage even if you don't taunt bosses. You are not fake healer because your passives heals you therefore you have heals. /Sarcasm

It is not fair to expect things from tanks and healers. But expect nothing from dds. Dds are damage dealers. Their role is to deal lots of damage. Tanks roll is to control the battlefield. Healer's role is to support everyone as much as he can, including resources.
If you don't deal more damage than a tank in 3 support sets that applies crusher to boss and stacks adds, you are a fake dd.

That's called being an insufficient dps, not a fake dps. Fake implies queueing as something that you aren't. If your character can't do the things a healer or tank are specifically meant to do, that leaves them as a dps. A dps' role is literally to do damage, which every character does. Healers and tanks have other roles besides dealing damage, which is why queueing as either when your character literally isn't made to perform those roles makes you a fake healer or fake tank. That term doesn't work with dps because their role is literally just to attack. They'd be a fake dps if they did nothing but watch or run past everything.

Edit: People complain about fake healers and fake tanks, but they also complain about healers and tanks underperforming. Those are two separate complaints. An underperforming healer or tank isn't automatically a fake healer or tank. Therefore, an underperforming dps isn't a fake dps. They're just an underperforming dps.

Anyway, I guess we're arguing semantics here. I rarely have issues when doing dungeons. You guys just have awful luck, I guess. My dungeon runs go smooth 90% of the time, and the only times they don't are when we die a bunch to a boss that's meant to be difficult or if half the group leaves because they got put in a DLC dungeon, ignoring the fact that I had to wait 15-30 minutes to get into a single dungeon at all. I'm completely fine with dying to bosses. It's part of the game. Can't expect everything to be easy.

WrathOfInnos

Kadraeus wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Kadraeus wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Another one of these threads! Anyway,

There is a common misconception with players. They think because they are not a healer or a tank, that they are by default, a DPS, it's not true, you can also just be completely useless....

I'm sure you're joking, but being "useless" as a dps is still a dps. By definition, you will still be dealing damage regardless of whether you think it's a good amount of damage. The only way you wouldn't be a dps is if you're doing zero damage at all. Is that even possible considering this is a game built around killing things and to kill things you have to, you know, deal damage? That of course means that even if your level is low you will still do damage. It just may not be much damage.

This argument is one I heard many times. You are not a fake tank because you take damage even if you don't taunt bosses. You are not fake healer because your passives heals you therefore you have heals. /Sarcasm

It is not fair to expect things from tanks and healers. But expect nothing from dds. Dds are damage dealers. Their role is to deal lots of damage. Tanks roll is to control the battlefield. Healer's role is to support everyone as much as he can, including resources.
If you don't deal more damage than a tank in 3 support sets that applies crusher to boss and stacks adds, you are a fake dd.

That's called being an insufficient dps, not a fake dps. Fake implies queueing as something that you aren't. If your character can't do the things a healer or tank are specifically meant to do, that leaves them as a dps. A dps' role is literally to do damage, which every character does. Healers and tanks have other roles besides dealing damage, which is why queueing as either when your character literally isn't made to perform those roles makes you a fake healer or fake tank. That term doesn't work with dps because their role is literally just to attack. They'd be a fake dps if they did nothing but watch or run past everything.

Edit: People complain about fake healers and fake tanks, but they also complain about healers and tanks underperforming. Those are two separate complaints. An underperforming healer or tank isn't automatically a fake healer or tank. Therefore, an underperforming dps isn't a fake dps. They're just an underperforming dps.

Anyway, I guess we're arguing semantics here. I rarely have issues when doing dungeons. You guys just have awful luck, I guess. My dungeon runs go smooth 90% of the time, and the only times they don't are when we die a bunch to a boss that's meant to be difficult or if half the group leaves because they got put in a DLC dungeon, ignoring the fact that I had to wait 15-30 minutes to get into a single dungeon at all. I'm completely fine with dying to bosses. It's part of the game. Can't expect everything to be easy.

I guess the question is where do you draw the line? If a full tank or full healer queued as DPS, I would say that’s as fake as a DPS queueing as tank or healer. Now maybe that tank or healer was going to pull 5k DPS. If another player joins on a non-tank non-healer build and does the same 5k DPS are they more legitimate in the role than the others?

Seems like all 3 options perform the role equally poorly. Just lacking tank or heal skills doesn’t make one a real DPS, and in this example I’d prefer having another support build if they’re doing the same damage. Maybe they’d bring more buffs/debuffs.

Kadraeus

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Kadraeus wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Kadraeus wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Another one of these threads! Anyway,

There is a common misconception with players. They think because they are not a healer or a tank, that they are by default, a DPS, it's not true, you can also just be completely useless....

I'm sure you're joking, but being "useless" as a dps is still a dps. By definition, you will still be dealing damage regardless of whether you think it's a good amount of damage. The only way you wouldn't be a dps is if you're doing zero damage at all. Is that even possible considering this is a game built around killing things and to kill things you have to, you know, deal damage? That of course means that even if your level is low you will still do damage. It just may not be much damage.

This argument is one I heard many times. You are not a fake tank because you take damage even if you don't taunt bosses. You are not fake healer because your passives heals you therefore you have heals. /Sarcasm

It is not fair to expect things from tanks and healers. But expect nothing from dds. Dds are damage dealers. Their role is to deal lots of damage. Tanks roll is to control the battlefield. Healer's role is to support everyone as much as he can, including resources.
If you don't deal more damage than a tank in 3 support sets that applies crusher to boss and stacks adds, you are a fake dd.

That's called being an insufficient dps, not a fake dps. Fake implies queueing as something that you aren't. If your character can't do the things a healer or tank are specifically meant to do, that leaves them as a dps. A dps' role is literally to do damage, which every character does. Healers and tanks have other roles besides dealing damage, which is why queueing as either when your character literally isn't made to perform those roles makes you a fake healer or fake tank. That term doesn't work with dps because their role is literally just to attack. They'd be a fake dps if they did nothing but watch or run past everything.

Edit: People complain about fake healers and fake tanks, but they also complain about healers and tanks underperforming. Those are two separate complaints. An underperforming healer or tank isn't automatically a fake healer or tank. Therefore, an underperforming dps isn't a fake dps. They're just an underperforming dps.

Anyway, I guess we're arguing semantics here. I rarely have issues when doing dungeons. You guys just have awful luck, I guess. My dungeon runs go smooth 90% of the time, and the only times they don't are when we die a bunch to a boss that's meant to be difficult or if half the group leaves because they got put in a DLC dungeon, ignoring the fact that I had to wait 15-30 minutes to get into a single dungeon at all. I'm completely fine with dying to bosses. It's part of the game. Can't expect everything to be easy.

I guess the question is where do you draw the line? If a full tank or full healer queued as DPS, I would say that’s as fake as a DPS queueing as tank or healer. Now maybe that tank or healer was going to pull 5k DPS. If another player joins on a non-tank non-healer build and does the same 5k DPS are they more legitimate in the role than the others?

Seems like all 3 options perform the role equally poorly. Just lacking tank or heal skills doesn’t make one a real DPS, and in this example I’d prefer having another support build if they’re doing the same damage. Maybe they’d bring more buffs/debuffs.

I guess that's fair. Honestly, this whole numbers thing is of little interest to me. I do what I can to get us through the dungeon and I don't die often. That's all that matters to me.

Grandchamp1989

I have main tanked for like two years and in that period I have only seen the quality of life, for Tanks, go down with very, very few exceptions.

I honestly feel like Tanking in this game is needs to be looked at. I don't blame people for not wanting to play it. I find myself play more and more DD and healer with every patch.

Our "sets" are so uncreative and doesn't benefit us.
Tanks are in PVE the most vulnerable to performance problems, as a desynch on block or a late taunt/chain can wipe the entire team.

I honestly feel like the Tanking role needs to be re-done from the ground up. Maybe take a look at other games where Tanks aren't "buff-bots" that has to hold block, and hold everyones hand.

Reinhardt in Overwatch got a giant shield to protect his team, as a Tank, but he also got a giant hammer and can do some serious damage... I wish we went more in that direction personly.

ssewallb14_ESO

Well, there were azureblight tanks that could do at least enough dps. That's getting nerfed out of existence next patch though because Zos can't balance PvP.

amm7sb14_ESO

jssriot wrote: »

Oliviander wrote: »

I
There are no group buffs needed in dungeons.

*gasp* How dare you!

LOL.

You said the thing that no one is suppose to say out loud. How are the gatekeepers going to gatekeep people who want to play tanks or healers now??? Awww.

Oh my bad. Yes, tanks and healers, you MUST get this and that and that other set to give the group buffs. Absolutely a requirement for any good tank or healer. Just ignore all the people who clear these dungeons with groups of 3-4 dps when they don't want to bother with getting on their tanks or healers because they know well that this content doesn't need all that.

I agree with the general thought, but the "gatekeeping" isn't about dungeons and never has been. It's about vet trials. Vet trials is where tanks are expected to wear "buff" sets like Yolna / Alkosh / Galenwe, etc.

"Selfish" tanks are just fine in dungeons, there's no dungeon where the meta setups are necessary.

(I put "selfish" tanks in quotations because there is no such thing as a "selfish" tank...)

Now, if you want to have the conversation about whether those sets are "required" for vet trials? We can have that conversation. I would probably even agree that those sets aren't "necessary" even for vet trials - if you're just looking for a clear.

But nobody is gatekeeping vet DLC dungeons. The discussion surrounding what sets a tank "needs" to wear are always about vet trials

cyclonus11

I draw the line at "queue as DPS with S&B and proceed to taunt bosses" as fake DPS

^ actually happens

Stratloc

VaranisArano wrote: »

Now, the times I feel helpless as a tank are when an untauntable red phase Centurion starts chasing a DD, who starts running and screaming "Tank?!! in chat. Believe me, I'd pull it off you if I could.

This made me think of the unpredictable mess that is the end boss in Arx... I get yelled at all the time.

Fennwitty

Stratloc wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Now, the times I feel helpless as a tank are when an untauntable red phase Centurion starts chasing a DD, who starts running and screaming "Tank?!! in chat. Believe me, I'd pull it off you if I could.

This made me think of the unpredictable mess that is the end boss in Arx... I get yelled at all the time.

Those fights where "the boss just does their own thing sometimes" are confusing for EVERYBODY who doesn't know the dungeon mechanics.

I remember tanking Arx Corinium the first couple times and having no idea what I (the tank) was doing wrong. Nope -- Sellistrex just does stuff.

She (randomly?) likes to charge after furthest targets but it's difficult to tell what exactly her range trigger is. I'm not even sure if that's the same random attack or not.

I've experimented (also as the tank) intentionally distancing myself from the group just to test whether she'd be more likely to charge at me. But Sellistrix still preferred the other party members in those cases.


A reduction in "WTF" mechanics would be another way to help improve people's willingness to tank. Or at least boost general understanding of what's going on.

I've said this before but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure: If you're tanking for a PUG and you know a boss is going to act funky, put it in chat. Never had people argue with me after I tell them exactly what's going to happen.

Reaper_00

"Being a tank in this game makes you feel so helpless..."

Try being a healer then. That'll improve your outlook on tanks.

I personally don't see the problem here. If the group's dps is sufficient to complete the dungeon then there isn't a problem. The game has deemed them worthy to be there. On the other hand, expecting all pug groups to have god tier dps would be a problem.