I feel vampire needs some slight buffs and reworks

francesinhalover

I have always been a fellow vampire, i just love them , like i love many vampire games like legacy of kain. And i couldn't stop but scream in happiness once vampires got new stealth kill animations!

however after the vampire rework i had to remove vampirism on most of my characters. Because vampire increases your non vampire skill costs even at stage 1.
So many people like me and others especially ones that play stamina loved the idea of being a vampire, however even at stage 1 we gain 3% / 12% skill cost increase that does affect our dps rotations.

That being said, I think vampire could either lose the extra skill costs and if really needed take increased fire damage or have the skill costs decreased,
however we would be insanely happy if at least at stage 1 the skill cost was 1% or non existent.

Vampire currently isn't that good outside some solo pve and nightblade pvp?, but even then it only works that well in some classes. I would love if the class could have some buffs , i know many players can recommend some good ones in the comments to this thread, even if small.

I have searched on many forums and the vast majority doesn't recommend being a vampire especially in 2021, please balance team, let vampire have some love.

Hexi

This is an MMO, it's not supposed to be good.

"Vampire" IS NOT A CLASS.

francesinhalover

Hexi wrote: »

This is an MMO, it's not supposed to be good.

"Vampire" IS NOT A CLASS.

I disagree, currently vampire feels like a class, because you need to dedicate your build to it.

vampire isn't something that really helps your class... you use your class to help the vampire gameplay.

Hexi

Nevermind, not gonna engage anyone on these forums anymore in any way.

Juomuuri

Tbh, I'd be happy if I could just have the vampire feeding animations without the pale skin, (whitewashing Redguards??) and without the weird penalties. Just for RP reasons.

Heimdarm

I think vampires, werewolves and also weapon skill lines should have more skills to choose from. At the moment they have five skills which can be morphed two different way so ten skills max, but half of them are very similar to the other morph.

I think the game should offer more variety and introduce 2-3 new skills to all these skill lines. I also find the lack of stamina based skills for vampires disturbing.

Hexi

PullaStormy wrote: »

Tbh, I'd be happy if I could just have the vampire feeding animations without the pale skin, (whitewashing Redguards??) and without the weird penalties. Just for RP reasons.

Yes, the morph is completely nonsensical and doesn't fir the lore at all.

Hey ZOS Pale =/= White

Asmael

Note: the following is focused specifically on the PvE aspect, as I have stopped doing PvP regularly.

Talking for the current patch in particular (this will change next patch, althought to which degree is not yet known): being a vampire is an absolute requirement for high-end DDs (damage dealers) for most of the group content, slightly less so with pure solo content, I'll detail why below. This has to do with 2 elements:

• Pale order
• Simmering Frenzy

Simmering frenzy is currently the strongest way to get weapon and spell damage by far for any spec that can sustain the constant HP loss. Seeing as it restricts you from receiving healing from anyone but yourself, it makes sense to combine it with Pale order, which also has the same restriction but enables extremely strong self healing, as long as you are dealing damage. Do note that Frenzy cannot kill you, as it will simply deactivate instead.

There are generally two ways to handle the use of Frenzy: either you build specifically for it to lower its cost, or you use it to get a brief but large buff to your stats and deactivate it as soon as the HP loss becomes unsustainable. Seeing as simply activating it gives 660 SP/WD (rank 4), just having it on beats virtually any 5p set bonus (not counting the 2-4p). Being able to sustain it for longer durations makes it the ultimate self-buff tool.

The caveat to this is that - as you pointed out - your abilities cost more, but this gets at least partially mitigated by the fact that the increased damage dealt results in shorter fights. Unless you are building for it (as in: doing more than just slotting Pale order), most people using it will stick to vampire stage 1. In case you still run into sustain issues, you can use Blood for Blood, the vampire melee ability that costs HP instead.

It has a wide range of applications in group content, as well as some solo content, althought to a lesser extent, reason being that you want to avoid taking high damage at the same time as a Frenzy tick. It is why it sees more use in group content than solo: if you are not focused by any monster in particular, then it becomes easier to sustain it.

If you are interested in building for it specifically, you have a few avenues to consider:

• Prismatic cost reduction glyphs
• Increasing vampire stage
• Using abilities to heal yourself (Healing tether on necromancer and Swallow Soul on magblades in particular)
• Using the Vampire Lord set (I do not currently recommend it for this patch, but it might change next patch)

Here's a spreadsheet detailing what is the base cost of Frenzy depending on your vampire stage, on whether you are using the Vampire Lord set, as well as much cost reduction from glyphs you are getting. The "Max HP req" column tells you how much max HP you need if you want to be able to sustain Frenzy indefinitely (it is maxed out at 99 stacks).



Those kind of builds tend to have a longer buildup time than most other DDs, since they are trading Bloodthirsty and spell damage on their jewelry for infused and cost reduction, but they become extremely strong as the fights last longer, enabling you to reach obscene amounts of SP/WD, see below:



Obvious warning: not all ingame content is really doable with these builds, to name just a few: Lokkestiiz HM (due to beam), Cloudrest (constant DoT with unreliable damage dealt), as well as most situations in which you take constant and relatively high damage yourself.

As a side note for tank specifically: you can use Exhilirating drain to generate more ultimate if you are not built to deal damage yourself.

BloodMagicLord

Yes ironically the great "vampire rework" made vampires worse, before it was useful to be vamp for the extra sustain at the very least, plus extra tankiness for pve tanks and pvp builds, but now they basically turned it into basically an RP skill tree that's not really worth using at all. I really wish they'd actually consult the players on some of these sweeping changes that they like to do because it's hardly the first time they've made an entire skill tree either way too strong or utterly useless.

Hexi

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

Yes ironically the great "vampire rework" made vampires worse, before it was useful to be vamp for the extra sustain at the very least, plus extra tankiness for pve tanks and pvp builds, but now they basically turned it into basically an RP skill tree that's not really worth using at all. I really wish they'd actually consult the players on some of these sweeping changes that they like to do because it's hardly the first time they've made an entire skill tree either way too strong or utterly useless.

That's why they changed it. People felt that it they HAD to be a Vampire.

mandricus

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

they basically turned it into basically an RP skill tree that's not really worth using at all

have a one-to-one fight against one of those people that transform itself in a goliath vampire in cyrodiil or in battlegrounds, or the people that pop mistform and can take damage indefinitely without dying, and then let me know if it's not worth using it at all..

Ratzkifal

Hexi wrote: »

This is an MMO, it's not supposed to be good.

"Vampire" IS NOT A CLASS.

Vampire is a build choice. It is a subclass and it will always be one. There is no point in having something in your game at all if it is not supposed to be good, especially if it is never good. Vampire exists and should have its niche.

Right now the execution of it is lacking though because it tries to punish you for also being something else than a vampire, which just doesn't work because it is indeed not a full class so you must always be something else alongside it. So unless vampire can coexist with your identity as a class it will always be lackluster.

Vampire needs to be an uncomfortable choice. Right now it is pretty much not a choice at all - don't be one. That being said, before the rework vampires were also not a choice - be one for the extra sustain. Vampirism should look very tempting when you look at the skills and passives but make you second guess yourself once you look at the drawbacks. Right now there isn't much tempting going on with what little vampires have to work with and conversely the drawbacks are too great.

The vampire skill set needs improvement.

• Healing disables on almost every skill is just a no-go for all group content.
• Evicerate - Having a spammable is a good suplement to many classes' kits, but it being a melee spammable ruins it. Either your class doesn't have a good spammable, in which case you've probably been using force shock and don't need a melee spammable, or your class has a spammable and it's already melee so Evicerate just doesn't interest you. Personally I think this should be turned into a gap closer, which would be in line with what we see NPCs doing all the time as well as lean into the fantasy of their unnatural speed. It can even still serve as a spammable, as a "rule breaker" the same way that Crit Rush and Leap are allowed to deal more-than-standard damage for gap closers. However, that would require some additional drawback to be balanced, like the ramping cost of Streak for example.
• Drain is a bad skill because it is channeled and it gets its best use between fights to restore ultimate to set up the next fight, making it pretty much dead weight unless you are a tank, and the other morph restoring stamina just isn't useful. I can see this getting a damage morph, either one that drops the channel and functions like Entropy or that keeps the channel to be a channeled damage skill like Flurry but ranged. Eitherway, the vampiric drain is iconic and it would be a shame if this skill wasn't turned into something more useful.
• Mesmerize is a fun idea on paper but also hardly worth slotting in reality because of how unreliable it is. Enemies need to face towards you to get stunned, which is useless when you are chasing someone in PvP and also doesn't work as effective crowd control for a tank in PvE unless you already got the aggro in which case why do you still need to crowd control anything? At least add minor maim or a slow to it or something.
• Mist Form is probably the most reliable and straight-forward skill vampires have. The healing and recovery disable makes sense on it the most but it is still useful anyway because of the 75% damage reduction and immunity to disabling effects. This is probably the only skill that does not need changing.
• Blood Frenzy sounds good but just doesn't work. The damage boost is great, but your health bar becomes a volatile mess. You are either at full health or almost dead with not much in between. While there is a learning curve to it that rewards skilled players, I just don't think the design is healthy. It is either always going to be too powerful to pass up or useless. I think the concept needs to be scrapped and replaced with something less volatile. Perhaps just turn it into a passive buff skill akin to Inner Light or Camouflage Hunter with some mechanic attached to that reflects the increased bloodlust.
• Blood Scion - the best ultimate a vampire has, because all the others have gotten more expensive as a result of becoming a vampire. Swarming Scion is good. Perfect Scion is bad. Perfect Scion is bad because when you make the decision to become a vampire, you are already dealing with the consequences of becoming one. Just having no drawbacks to it anymore does not really help because any ultimate that actually helps you with sustain or damage or staying alive (including the Swarming Scion morph) do a better job at mitigating the drawbacks of your affliction than having no drawbacks for a short amount of time. I think it would be better if this morph got a rework. Make it extend in duration for every second spent channeling your Drain skill or something. Just give it something that lets it compete with the other morph.

Jeremy

francesinhalover wrote: »

I have always been a fellow vampire, i just love them , like i love many vampire games like legacy of kain. And i couldn't stop but scream in happiness once vampires got new stealth kill animations!

however after the vampire rework i had to remove vampirism on most of my characters. Because vampire increases your non vampire skill costs even at stage 1.
So many people like me and others especially ones that play stamina loved the idea of being a vampire, however even at stage 1 we gain 3% / 12% skill cost increase that does affect our dps rotations.

That being said, I think vampire could either lose the extra skill costs and if really needed take increased fire damage or have the skill costs decreased,
however we would be insanely happy if at least at stage 1 the skill cost was 1% or non existent.

Vampire currently isn't that good outside some solo pve and nightblade pvp?, but even then it only works that well in some classes. I would love if the class could have some buffs , i know many players can recommend some good ones in the comments to this thread, even if small.

I have searched on many forums and the vast majority doesn't recommend being a vampire especially in 2021, please balance team, let vampire have some love.

That's because people kept complaining about it, so they kept nerfing it. It's what always happens on this game. Anything good people make a fuss over and it slowly gets nerfed into mediocrity.

Mist Form for example used to be really good. With high recovery stats you could incorporate it into some really interesting and effective builds. Then came the nerfs. Now it's basically the same ability it's always been.

Blood Frenzy used to be a great way to boost your offense. People complained, they nerfed. Now it's hardly even worth the the trouble of using.

Drain used to be good. It was an effective heal and a CC combined into one, and was a really fun ability to use, especially in PvP. People complained. Now taking it into PvP is like wasting an ability slot.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. So there is really no point in buffing Vampire. If they did, people would just complain, and then it would just get nerfed again. haha

Vevvev

Ratzkifal wrote: »

.
[*] Mesmerize is a fun idea on paper but also hardly worth slotting in reality because of how unreliable it is. Enemies need to face towards you to get stunned, which is useless when you are chasing someone in PvP and also doesn't work as effective crowd control for a tank in PvE unless you already got the aggro in which case why do you still need to crowd control anything? At least add minor maim or a slow to it or something.

I love most of your points but I wanna add the morph of Mesmerize, Stupefy, has a slow on it for 5 seconds afterwards. Only morph I use because the 360 degree stun isn't worthwhile to me since it reduces the range and I'm always facing my opponent anyways.

Ratzkifal

Vevvev wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

.
[*] Mesmerize is a fun idea on paper but also hardly worth slotting in reality because of how unreliable it is. Enemies need to face towards you to get stunned, which is useless when you are chasing someone in PvP and also doesn't work as effective crowd control for a tank in PvE unless you already got the aggro in which case why do you still need to crowd control anything? At least add minor maim or a slow to it or something.

I love most of your points but I wanna add the morph of Mesmerize, Stupefy, has a slow on it for 5 seconds afterwards. Only morph I use because the 360 degree stun isn't worthwhile to me since it reduces the range and I'm always facing my opponent anyways.

I meant more of a slow regardless where the enemy was facing. The slow after the stun is just as pointless.

Vevvev

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

.
[*] Mesmerize is a fun idea on paper but also hardly worth slotting in reality because of how unreliable it is. Enemies need to face towards you to get stunned, which is useless when you are chasing someone in PvP and also doesn't work as effective crowd control for a tank in PvE unless you already got the aggro in which case why do you still need to crowd control anything? At least add minor maim or a slow to it or something.

I love most of your points but I wanna add the morph of Mesmerize, Stupefy, has a slow on it for 5 seconds afterwards. Only morph I use because the 360 degree stun isn't worthwhile to me since it reduces the range and I'm always facing my opponent anyways.

I meant more of a slow regardless where the enemy was facing. The slow after the stun is just as pointless.

Can't argue with that. There needs to be something that happens to people standing in the Cone/AoE who don't get stunned. Vampiric Charm in other games never required looking at the foe anyways.

LettuceBrain

Vevvev wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

.
[*] Mesmerize is a fun idea on paper but also hardly worth slotting in reality because of how unreliable it is. Enemies need to face towards you to get stunned, which is useless when you are chasing someone in PvP and also doesn't work as effective crowd control for a tank in PvE unless you already got the aggro in which case why do you still need to crowd control anything? At least add minor maim or a slow to it or something.

I love most of your points but I wanna add the morph of Mesmerize, Stupefy, has a slow on it for 5 seconds afterwards. Only morph I use because the 360 degree stun isn't worthwhile to me since it reduces the range and I'm always facing my opponent anyways.

I meant more of a slow regardless where the enemy was facing. The slow after the stun is just as pointless.

Can't argue with that. There needs to be something that happens to people standing in the Cone/AoE who don't get stunned. Vampiric Charm in other games never required looking at the foe anyways.

I mean realistically I don't think you could charm someone without speaking to them or looking at them...

Ippokrates

LettuceBrain wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

.
[*] Mesmerize is a fun idea on paper but also hardly worth slotting in reality because of how unreliable it is. Enemies need to face towards you to get stunned, which is useless when you are chasing someone in PvP and also doesn't work as effective crowd control for a tank in PvE unless you already got the aggro in which case why do you still need to crowd control anything? At least add minor maim or a slow to it or something.

I love most of your points but I wanna add the morph of Mesmerize, Stupefy, has a slow on it for 5 seconds afterwards. Only morph I use because the 360 degree stun isn't worthwhile to me since it reduces the range and I'm always facing my opponent anyways.

I meant more of a slow regardless where the enemy was facing. The slow after the stun is just as pointless.

Can't argue with that. There needs to be something that happens to people standing in the Cone/AoE who don't get stunned. Vampiric Charm in other games never required looking at the foe anyways.

I mean realistically I don't think you could charm someone without speaking to them or looking at them...

This is School of Illusion, it goes to your head, not face