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How would the Thu'um Work In a more realistic scenario?
xAarionx
✭✭✭
So I was thinking About the Thu'um And how it changes reallity, and, I Have a lot of questions:
First Thing that I'd like to adress is how a Dragonborn learn shouts. It's said that he just need to hear the word, and then unlock it's meaning with a dragon soul. But I don't see this working outside a gaming scenario. It's seems to be a game mechanics that adds some work into learning new shouts
How would that work in a more realistic scenario?
I personally believe that a dragonborn Just need to hear the word to unlock it's power. because the meaning of the word is already incribed in his soul. That way a dragonborn is like a sorcerer from a common D&D RPG who casts spells by only feeling it, not really uderstanding it. A dohvakiin Shout's without understanding what he does exactly, he just feel it, and do it.
That way I can't see how absorbing a dragon soul plays a part on learning a shout. A can understant how it powers it up (next discussion), but I can't see why would he need one to unlock it in first Place
I personally see more sense in the dovahkiin learning more shouts that he never heard of by absorbing a dargon soul (by consequence, he would have learned every shout that was known to that dragon). But I don't see why he would need to first hear the word, then Absorb a dragon soul to unlock. also, having that need contraticts what angneir says in skyrim "For a Dragonborn, Shouting is as Natural as breathing" In other words, You just do it, you don't need to think about it, having the word and, puff, it happens.
That leads to my second question: How does a Dragon Soul Powers up a dragonborn? It increase the strengh of the shouts? it just gives him more knownlege and more understanding of the word itself, making it more efficient/powerfull? It increases the dragonborn life force so he can shout more without getting tired?
I personally think it's a bit of everything, Not only the dragon soul would give him more understanting, making him, who knows, add new effects to his shouts, but also would boost it's power and the overall dohvakiin stamina in to shouting.
That, itself leads to my last two questions:
What is the detrimental effect/limitations of shouting?
It has no real detrimental/limitation effect on the user, at least no explicitly. Not like Magick uses mana, that deteriorates and tires the body, and has to have hand movements, enchants preparation (that becomes the casting time)
Games usually Limit this feature by adding a Cooldown. a time between each shout so you just wouldn't shout your way through the game. But that seems something that only makes sense inside a game as a mechanics limitation. On a realistic scenario i don't see why You couldn't do shout's in sequence
So, what Would be the limitations? It's said that the thu'm uses life force instead of mana to power, so, would a dragonborn feel tired if He shouts too much? Would it have long term deterioration effects on it's body? That seems to make sense, but also abusing of it wouldn't most likely reduce the user life-time?
_____________________________________________________________________________
How DOES shouts would work exactly?
I mean, In game, each shout has tree words, It word powers up the next but:
In the Description it's said the "the power of the thu'um is to give meaning to the words that are pronunciated" that being said, I don't see why the thu'um need to follow that specific rule
For me, it makes sense that conbining words should give new effects (Like Yol - To create Fire) (Toor - To intensify the flames) (Shul - Explode/Create a fireball) That seems to me more on point with the description
The three words rule seems to be also Just a gaming mechs, that makes no sense another scenario (also, Miraak uses a 4 word shout to absorb dragons)
That being said How would It affect really reality? I mean if a Dragonborn say "GOL KREN" (Earth Divide) Would the earth just split in two by his command? or it depends on the dovakiins intentions? What About Words with multiple meanings?
What are your thoughts about it?
Edited by xAarionx on May 15, 2021 4:58PM First Thing that I'd like to adress is how a Dragonborn learn shouts. It's said that he just need to hear the word, and then unlock it's meaning with a dragon soul. But I don't see this working outside a gaming scenario. It's seems to be a game mechanics that adds some work into learning new shouts
How would that work in a more realistic scenario?
I personally believe that a dragonborn Just need to hear the word to unlock it's power. because the meaning of the word is already incribed in his soul. That way a dragonborn is like a sorcerer from a common D&D RPG who casts spells by only feeling it, not really uderstanding it. A dohvakiin Shout's without understanding what he does exactly, he just feel it, and do it.
That way I can't see how absorbing a dragon soul plays a part on learning a shout. A can understant how it powers it up (next discussion), but I can't see why would he need one to unlock it in first Place
I personally see more sense in the dovahkiin learning more shouts that he never heard of by absorbing a dargon soul (by consequence, he would have learned every shout that was known to that dragon). But I don't see why he would need to first hear the word, then Absorb a dragon soul to unlock. also, having that need contraticts what angneir says in skyrim "For a Dragonborn, Shouting is as Natural as breathing" In other words, You just do it, you don't need to think about it, having the word and, puff, it happens.
That leads to my second question: How does a Dragon Soul Powers up a dragonborn? It increase the strengh of the shouts? it just gives him more knownlege and more understanding of the word itself, making it more efficient/powerfull? It increases the dragonborn life force so he can shout more without getting tired?
I personally think it's a bit of everything, Not only the dragon soul would give him more understanting, making him, who knows, add new effects to his shouts, but also would boost it's power and the overall dohvakiin stamina in to shouting.
That, itself leads to my last two questions:
What is the detrimental effect/limitations of shouting?
It has no real detrimental/limitation effect on the user, at least no explicitly. Not like Magick uses mana, that deteriorates and tires the body, and has to have hand movements, enchants preparation (that becomes the casting time)
Games usually Limit this feature by adding a Cooldown. a time between each shout so you just wouldn't shout your way through the game. But that seems something that only makes sense inside a game as a mechanics limitation. On a realistic scenario i don't see why You couldn't do shout's in sequence
So, what Would be the limitations? It's said that the thu'm uses life force instead of mana to power, so, would a dragonborn feel tired if He shouts too much? Would it have long term deterioration effects on it's body? That seems to make sense, but also abusing of it wouldn't most likely reduce the user life-time?
_____________________________________________________________________________
How DOES shouts would work exactly?
I mean, In game, each shout has tree words, It word powers up the next but:
In the Description it's said the "the power of the thu'um is to give meaning to the words that are pronunciated" that being said, I don't see why the thu'um need to follow that specific rule
For me, it makes sense that conbining words should give new effects (Like Yol - To create Fire) (Toor - To intensify the flames) (Shul - Explode/Create a fireball) That seems to me more on point with the description
The three words rule seems to be also Just a gaming mechs, that makes no sense another scenario (also, Miraak uses a 4 word shout to absorb dragons)
That being said How would It affect really reality? I mean if a Dragonborn say "GOL KREN" (Earth Divide) Would the earth just split in two by his command? or it depends on the dovakiins intentions? What About Words with multiple meanings?
What are your thoughts about it?
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RedMuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wouldn't work for gameplay because unless you're Dragonborn it takes like 30 years to learn one Thu'um.
Plus I do not want ESO to turn into to 'cheap ripoff Skyrim' thank you.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭According to Todd Howard, what we see in the games has priority when it comes to Canon, and what we read in the lore in games comes second.
So the Dragonborn doesn't learn words they never heard by absorbing a dragon's soul. Now, this might be different for a scholar of ancient Dovahzul, which our Dragonborn is not, but we have to gain an understanding of the word first. This is done by learning from the Word Walls, or learning from a Master who already understands it. Indeed, when the Greybeards teach us, the understanding is so complete we don't need a dragon's soul.
Likewise, when every shout we see has three words except for Miraak's, it's logical to assume that the vast majority of shouts originating from dragon's and men are three words, but that a knowledgeable Dragonborn scholar of Dovahzul with access to Hermaeus Mora's library might be able to come up with something different.
Shouting is tied to breath. Tiber Septim couldn't use the thu'um after an assassin non-fatally slit his throat. A more logical explanation for the "cooldowns" is that you have to catch your breath before you shout again.
Also, keep in mind that the Thu'um can be learned in other ways than absorbing souls. The Greybeards are the premier school for teaching the Tongue and their method is the strongest, but there were plenty of other Nordic battletongues through the ages. Tiber Septim started the Imperial College in Markarth to teach it.
Finally, we don't have any lore examples of any Tongues using Shouts to do what you suggest. The Battletongues are powerful, but not overpowered on the battlefield. Dragons have been beaten by ordinary mortals before. The only hint we get that something like that could occur is in the legend of Miraak vs Vahlok, regarding the creation of Solstheim: "The two fought a mighty battle that lasted for days, each hurling terrible arcane energies and thu'um shouts at the other. So great and terrible were the forces unleashed in this contest that Solstheim was torn apart from the mainland of Skyrim. Here, the myth clearly descends into the realm of pure fantasy." https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Guardian_and_the_Traitor Even there, that's magic and the Thu'um, not shouting alone.
(Fanfic examples, yes. There was a glorious self-insert fic where someone stuck themselves in Skyrim as a dragon and started experimenting with their own shouts, including earth magic. It got overpowered quickly, especially since the Dragon's can also improvise. Saloknir nearly obliterated Windhelm, IIRC. That's, ah, not backed up by the gameplay we see from dragons.)
I would suggest using what we see in the games as a starting point, and then thinking about how to work within those limitations creatively.1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am fairly sure that words in the dragon tongue, but spoken like a dragon - not just anyone uttering "Fus Ro Dah", vibrate the fabric of reality to cause the effect of the shout. This means that "Earth Divide" would probably only be able to dig a hole at best and if you are a very powerful voice (loud? well-spoken? something else?) the effects would be greater and the hole larger. But I don't think you could ever reach a point where you can split the whole world because you just can't vibrate reality as strongly as you would have to. That's also the reason why the Dragonfall shout doesn't actually make dragons mortal or outright kills them.
Interestingly the same principles of the Dwemer tonal architecture seem to apply and possibly also the Sword-Singing and story telling from the Spinners - which are all somehow related to language or music (and thus sound and vibration).This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0