How more choices can solve the big three problems with dungeon finder.

BejaProphet

So as I see it, three big problems exist with dungeon finder.

1.) The long waits times for damage dealer roles.

2.) Damage dealers queuing as tanks or healers to avoid this wait time.

3.) New players failing to learn their roles in normal dungeons due to highly overpowered players using normal dungeons as easy runs.


This last one we don’t talk about nearly enough. We complain about bad damage and lack of common skills in dungeon finder. We wonder why people don’t learn in normals before running vet. Part of the answer is that they often can’t. Normal dungeons are often a five minute blur in which a new player has no idea what happened because a five year vet with speed buffs just wrecked it as the new guy ran behind.

Another reason none of these have been fixed is that we keep thinking about restrictions. Higher CP standards etc.

I want to suggest the answer is more choices. Add the following group finder options in addition to the ones currently there.

1.) Non standard group queue. This will take the first four players regardless of role. All those fake tanks and healers, as well as any others who are happy with 4DD, will choose this for fastest group time possible. This will dramatically cut down on DD wait time, and thus remove the reason to queue as a fake anything. The only reason to go to the traditional wait list would be people wanting a formal 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DD set up. For a DD just trying to get in fast, the new “anything goes” queue will be faster and a more all damage option for blazing through dungeon. Fakes will be reduced, and DD wait time goes down.

2. A no-cp normal dungeon finder. This would disable any CP like a no-cp Cyrodiil. This gives new players a chance to run a dungeon with other learners rather than players who leave them behind as they wonder what just happened. It needs to be no-cp rather than “under level 50” so that new players can group with established friends. And no veteran player planning to Zerg a dungeon is going to choose to have their Cp turned off. Now new to players can actually learn.

More choices. Nothing taken or artificially restricted. Biggest problems will be majorly improved.

Amottica

1. It is normal for DDs to have a longer queue time with 4 man groups. I go in as a healer and do damage. Yes, I also heal. Faster queue pop and I have found that there is no real DPS loss. When I play stamina I will have a second role as a tank. In other words this is not only ensure a faster queue pop but it is part of the solution.

For those wanting a non-standard group, it is easy to do now by forming it quickly from zone or guild.

2. Why would anyone want to run no-CP for dungeons? Besides the devs needing to rebalance all the dungeons for this new feature, especially since the idea is for new players, players would queue for where they get the fastest pop making one version virtually pointless.

BejaProphet

The point of a no-cp dungeon would, simply put, is so that those who already have no cp to get to actually do the dungeon rather than be carried.

I just did nCoA 1 on my baby nightblade. Along side me was a 1,500 cp sorc. Everything melted before I could even see it.

That is an ordinary “normal” dungeon experience. Can you seriously not imagine a new player disliking that? Some will like to be carried. And that “normal” option would remain. But what if I want that 1,500 cp sorc to go play in the deep end so I can actually try this dungeon thing out and learn how to play? That’s what the no-cp would be for.

Rather than creating a restriction, it’s creating an option that these high CP speed runners will not choose. And by creating a dungeon experience that they will not choose, you’ve simultaneously created a dungeon option that people -who are timid, not wanting bullied, and are looking to have room to learn and make mistakes- will choose.

And suddenly as yet another biproduct, we in the vet dungeons will start getting players who had an actual chance to learn both their roles and mechanics.

That’s not pointless. It’s pointless to the high CP who only wants to run the baby league so he/she can get done. And it being pointless to that person is kind of the point.

VaranisArano

Status quo:
A. Normal Random dungeon
B. Normal Specific dungeons
C. Veteran Random dungeon
D. Veteran Specific dungeons

You suggestion:
A. No-CP, Standard Roles, Normal Random dungeon
B. No-CP, Standard Roles, Normal Specific dungeons
C. CP, Standard Roles, Normal Random dungeon
D. CP, Non-Standard Roles, Normal Random dungeon
E. CP, Standard Roles, Normal Specific dungeons
F. CP, Non-standard Roles, Normal Specific dungeons
G. CP, Standard Roles, Veteran Random dungeon
H. CP, Non-Standard Roles, Veteran Random dungeon
I. CP, Standard Roles, Veteran Specific dungeons
J. CP, Non-standard Roles, Veteran Specific dungeons

I think showing just how much you'd split the queue goes to show why ZOS almost certainly won't be implementing your suggestion. Splitting the queue adds more time all around to everyone else in that Normal/Veteran bracket.

Other reasons why it's a bad idea:
1. If ZOS adds non-standard Roles to the groupfinder, they now have to balance and design new content for non-standard Roles, such as groups that have no tank. If this becomes the most popular option as you suspect, then ZOS comes under more pressure to design accordingly.
2. You know when healers complain about being made useless? They want to be more useful, not have their uselessness codified into the Groupfinder with a non-standard "I don't need no healer" queue.
3. As described, your non-standard role queues don't preclude two or more tanks/healers ending up in the same run. You just assume that there are so many DDs, it won't happen. In reality, you'd have to exclude getting duplicate support roles because - obviously - dungeons are only designed for one tank.,
4.. It doesn't actually help new players, because having a No-CP queue doesn't preclude experienced players from rolling in there on rare occasions and, let's be honest, those newbies are going to be waiting a long, long time for other players who's accounts are also below level 50.


Finally, finally.
None of this accomplishes anything more than forming your own premade group to your specifications and running the dungeon.
So maybe do that instead?

BejaProphet

@VaranisArano

I think you “split the queue” statement is your most substantive so let me start there and place other responses in the TLDR area.

Yes. I’m calling for splitting the player base. But that isn’t what is crucial; balance is crucial. The ratio of support to DDs is what will determine how fast I’m placed in a group rather than the size of the player pool.

Everybody gets that there is too many DD’s per support.

If we open a free for all, OVERWHELMINGLY it will be DDs escaping the wait time. There will be NO wait time from balance issues in free for all because balance isn’t a factor there, and balance in traditional will do nothing but improve.

Now your secondary objections.

1. Simply not true. They have ZERO reason to balance differently. This one almost feels like a red herring to be honest.

2. This will improve the situation of healers. All the people who want a mass DD Zerg will go to the free for all queue. What damage dealers will stay? The ones who VALUE the support roles. Healers will have a better experience.

3. Addressing your main objection did also address this. But yes, it’s within the realm of possibility two tanks get in the same group. But any suggestion that this would be anything but incredibly rare is just silly and baseless.

4. It doesn’t restrict high players from joining. But overwhelmingly they won’t. No player looking to blaze through a dungeon is going to opt to BOTH loose his CP AND choose a queue he know will give him less experienced team mates, when the dungeon is no easier. Additionally it’s not “below 50”, it’s CP disabled. Big difference. Further there is no reason to assume long wait times.


As for your “finally finally”

That’s all ANY group finder ever does. I’m just suggesting it be done with choices.

VaranisArano

I don't regard the question of dungeon design, balance, and the tank role as a red herring.

ZOS already rebalances vet DLC dungeons after a year or so in order to adjust areas where groups get stuck. Usually by nerfing them. This is when we're assuming that everyone uses standard roles in Vet dungeons or at least made their own premade group.

So I'm not sure why you think that if ZOS gives their official approval to non-standard group roles, they won't then take that into account for balancing and design as well. Unless you expect ZOS to say "Well, we're balancing everything for standard roles, if you use the non-standard queue, you aren't playing as intended, don't expect us to change anything for you, caveat emptor!"

I think that's pretty unlikely, and also untenable,, if ZOS officially supports non-standard queues in their Groupfinder. Almost certainly, they will look at that data when they adjust the new dungeons over time. And usually, groups without a tank do much worse in harder Vet and DLC dungeons than groups with standard roles or 1 tank+3DDs.

So specifically, what do you do with the tank role? What impact do you expect there to be on the design process when groups might very well be officially queuing with no tank in the group? Do you design bosses that require a tank, and groups who don't have one are SOL? Or do you now have to playtest for groups with a tank and groups with no tank, making sure the encounter can be completed either way?


Edited: (As for healers, they fall under the same problem, only worse. Whereas the non-standard roles that players currently use might be safely assumed to be 4 DDs or 1tank+3DDs, we do see that ZOS would be officially supporting the creation of an "I don't need no healer" queue. Consider how that changes the balancing of self heals when ZOS has to officially support 4 DDs healing themselves with no healer - the net result is that healers get even more sidelined in groups with competent players.)

BejaProphet

My answer would be to continue designing entirely around a standard group mix.

VaranisArano

BejaProphet wrote: »

My answer would be to continue designing entirely around a standard group mix.

While it would be ideal if ZOS did so, again, I think this is untenable once ZOS adds official support for non-standard roles to the Groupfinder.

It's one thing to have a Groupfinder with set standard roles that match the content requirements, and to allow groups to informally run non-standard Roles "at their own risk."

It's another thing to recode the official Groupfinder to allow formal non-standard role groups, and still say "Dungeons are only designed for a tank, a healer, and 2 damage dealers. Use this queue at your own risk."

BejaProphet

Perhaps just treat it as a toggelable flag

___ place me in a non-optimized group design.

Agenericname

VaranisArano wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

My answer would be to continue designing entirely around a standard group mix.

While it would be ideal if ZOS did so, again, I think this is untenable once ZOS adds official support for non-standard roles to the Groupfinder.

It's one thing to have a Groupfinder with set standard roles that match the content requirements, and to allow groups to informally run non-standard Roles "at their own risk."

It's another thing to recode the official Groupfinder to allow formal non-standard role groups, and still say "Dungeons are only designed for a tank, a healer, and 2 damage dealers. Use this queue at your own risk."

At this point we are in, or are leaning toward, a lesser of the evils scenario.

We had the ability to queue as multiple roles. That was removed, yet the issues remained. Thats because the heart of the issue is more of a disparity in power/difficulty issue. In order for ZOS to make normal dungeons need all 4 roles the nerfs required would register on Nirn's Richter scale.

For a number of reasons that wouldn't be well received. Nobody wants to play a game to become less powerful and increasing the difficulty to match our level of power wouldn't be fair to newer players.

So within certain boundaries, this problem is here to stay. They doubled down on this disparity when they allowed the rewards from the RND be equal to the RVD in terms of crystals and XP.

People already form their own groups. This is simply automating a selection process thats already in wide use.

I dont think its an ideal solution by any stretch of the imagination, but would ZOS doing such be more or less corrosive than whats already happening? IMO I believe even a less ideal solution would be an improvement.

Elendir2am

I agree with no-role group, because it is what we do in guild runs. So, it wouldn’t be anything new from group perspective.

I don’t think, that no-CP would help to learn mechanics. ESO mechanics aren’t intuitive. In dungeons “II” is experienced player often the one, who carry group over such place, like Mezeluth in CoH II. Learning mechanics is best through guild-school or with videos.

BejaProphet

The issue is not learning mechanics. It’s learning their role. Having a massively over powered DD in a normal dungeon blazing through a dungeon in 5 minutes robs them of learning the basics of group play.

To be blunt it robs them of playing the dungeon entirely.

@Elendir2am

Elendir2am

It is long time when I started dungeons runs with my first character (tank). Sometimes I was left behind and sometimes we went standard runs with roles. I think that former was rarer than later, but I don’t remember it properly. Going run with trials DD from time to time don’t prevent them learn roles. Problem would be/is, if it was frequent experience. Only new players can judge that.

BejaProphet

Why can only new players judge whether it is common? Make a new toon and see. When I did this past few weeks, I leveled it to 50 purely by running dungeons in group finder. Somebody dramatically overpowered was there the vast majority of runs.

Elendir2am

My new toon will have still CP advantage and better gear than I had as rookie. I will know all mechanics. Therefore, I don’t see myself as judge of what new players want or think.

I make new characters with different playstyle on regular basis (around 180 days when previous has all stable upgrades). I am ready to clear enemies in easy dungeons with 10 level character. Easy dungeons are only place, where I get with 10 level toon.
I am 1 month from creating next new character now and I expect, that experience will move another part of curve: 1 toon was difficult, 2 was easier but with some hiccup here and there, 3 was easy 4 (healer) could clear rooms by herself, substitute fake tank and still heal all groupmates from low levels.

Next toon will be 5th and I expect that it will be further from new players build in performance, then previous builds.

wheresbes

I agree with VaranisArano.

The point here is that, if people were more considerate of others, we wouldn't have all these problems, IMO.

1) Queues are long for dds except for randoms, so now I pretty much only queue for that. Makes the anticipation almost palpable XD and problem solved.

2) I hate this, luckily in vet happens rarely but when it does it's a pain. We've kicked a fake tank once and no one else joined in; since it was an easy one we manage to finish it regardless but it was a pain. We would have gained the "master dodger" achievement if it existed! I really, really want a formal 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DD set up, like, REALLY.

3) This again is due to people not always being considerate of others. I almost never run normals now, but if I happen to do so and end up grouped with baby toons, I make sure to slow down, ie. with mobs I cast one/two dots and let the others do some work. I want group members to feel satisfied at the end of the run because they have pulled their weight and learned something.

BejaProphet

@Elendir2am you are talking about whether we can enter into the emotional-mental state of a new player to grasp their overall experience of the game.

I’m not talking about that. I’m saying that we veteran players are capable of making a new character, running a bunch of dungeons, and seeing how frequently high powered characters come in and blaze through the dungeon.

We CAN see that and on Xbox NA the answer is that experience is the typical normal-dungeon experience.

phileunderx2

Give us 10 crystals for our first dungeon competition of the day no matter the mode.
I honestly dislike having to run randoms and having to deal with all the fakes and superstars that have to run through at Mach speed.

BejaProphet

phileunderx2 wrote: »

Give us 10 crystals for our first dungeon competition of the day no matter the mode.
I honestly dislike having to run randoms and having to deal with all the fakes and superstars that have to run through at Mach speed.

That would defeat the entire purpose of the crystal reward. The point is to incentivize you to fill somebody else’s group in a dungeon you might otherwise not have been willing to join. It’s not an entitled 10 crystals that could be dispensed more efficiently. It’s a bribe.

Veinblood1965

I like these ideas. I ran Castle Thorn the other night with a lower level PUG and it was kind of nice to just take our time and explore the place. Every other time it's been a breezefest. I'm higher CP but still was nice to just go slow and let the newbies learn and also explore.

phileunderx2

BejaProphet wrote: »

phileunderx2 wrote: »

Give us 10 crystals for our first dungeon competition of the day no matter the mode.
I honestly dislike having to run randoms and having to deal with all the fakes and superstars that have to run through at Mach speed.

That would defeat the entire purpose of the crystal reward. The point is to incentivize you to fill somebody else’s group in a dungeon you might otherwise not have been willing to join. It’s not an entitled 10 crystals that could be dispensed more efficiently. It’s a bribe.

I bonus xp is the bribe to get people in the random que. Take the crystal bonus off the random.

BejaProphet

phileunderx2 wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

phileunderx2 wrote: »

Give us 10 crystals for our first dungeon competition of the day no matter the mode.
I honestly dislike having to run randoms and having to deal with all the fakes and superstars that have to run through at Mach speed.

That would defeat the entire purpose of the crystal reward. The point is to incentivize you to fill somebody else’s group in a dungeon you might otherwise not have been willing to join. It’s not an entitled 10 crystals that could be dispensed more efficiently. It’s a bribe.

I bonus xp is the bribe to get people in the random que. Take the crystal bonus off the random.

It’s all the bribe.