First part of Heavy Armor Costitution passive will be punished in pvp - thoughts for compensation?

silver1surfer69

Health recovery will be reduced by 50% in pvp in upcoming patch. First part of Costitution passive from Heavy armor (4% health recovery per piece used) is more or less useless then. How about giving it 1% Stam, Mag and Health recovery per piece then or at least double the health recovery from 4% to 8% then in pvp, to compensate it. This are 2 possible ideas from my side to compensate this, so this passive is not punished to hard, which i guess is not intended for this passive. Other ideas?

MashmalloMan

It would of been fine if the standard values for hp regen for 1-4 pieces was udpated to a reasonable amount. It was already 1 of the crappiest passives. 129 hp regen =/= 129 stam regen or anywhere close to = 129 weapon damage.

ZOS is even aware of this problem because they go out of their way to buff complete set bonuses to be like 3x as strong as typical regen bonuses as seen with Beekeeper, Alessian, Troll King and that 3 piece set.

Instead of tackling the root of the problem for pvp where a few niche setups overstacked the crap out of hp regen based on sets THEY overtuned and the CP passive THEY introduced, they did the typical ZOS hammer nerf and messed over everyone by -50%.

This is coming after the biggest balance change to these problematic builds in patch 29 where Vampires couldn't get hp regen during mist form.

So.. Idk what they were thinking. Heavy Armor doesn't need compensation, the standard for HP regen needs to be updated to reflect the complete set bonuses they're clearly using. HP regen is a crappy bonus for pve and pvp now, it's fruitless, pointless, you're better off getting proc sets that heal for 2k + heals per second in aoe.

But there is a longer post about these issues by someone else who shows the math to prove it if you search it up. Worth reading. If the base bonuses updated, sets for 1-4 pieces would be in a much better place and the nerf of -50% in pvp would regulate things out while also allowing pve builds to prop up where players could start actually relying a little bit on hp regen.

silver1surfer69

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It would of been fine if the standard values for hp regen for 1-4 pieces was udpated to a reasonable amount. It was already 1 of the crappiest passives. 129 hp regen =/= 129 stam regen or anywhere close to = 129 weapon damage.

ZOS is even aware of this problem because they go out of their way to buff complete set bonuses to be like 3x as strong as typical regen bonuses as seen with Beekeeper, Alessian, Troll King and that 3 piece set.

Instead of tackling the root of the problem for pvp where a few niche setups overstacked the crap out of hp regen based on sets THEY overtuned and the CP passive THEY introduced, they did the typical ZOS hammer nerf and messed over everyone by -50%.

This is coming after the biggest balance change to these problematic builds in patch 29 where Vampires couldn't get hp regen during mist form.

So.. Idk what they were thinking. Heavy Armor doesn't need compensation, the standard for HP regen needs to be updated to reflect the complete set bonuses they're clearly using. HP regen is a crappy bonus for pve and pvp now, it's fruitless, pointless, you're better off getting proc sets that heal for 2k + heals per second in aoe.

But there is a longer post about these issues by someone else who shows the math to prove it if you search it up. Worth reading. If the base bonuses updated, sets for 1-4 pieces would be in a much better place and the nerf of -50% in pvp would regulate things out while also allowing pve builds to prop up where players could start actually relying a little bit on hp regen.

I agree and that was kinda my thought behind this that as you say hp regen is now a fruitless bonus. As i understand it zos wants hp regen not to be as it was when exploited by some. So they want it to be nerfed as i undestand, so calling for a buff for it wont happen cause its not intended to be buffed - so how about getting something else for it, thats what i mean with compensation.

twing1_

MashmalloMan wrote: »

But there is a longer post about these issues by someone else who shows the math to prove it if you search it up. Worth reading. If the base bonuses updated, sets for 1-4 pieces would be in a much better place and the nerf of -50% in pvp would regulate things out while also allowing pve builds to prop up where players could start actually relying a little bit on hp regen.

Post that was referenced found here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/571123/health-recovery-inconsistency-and-viability#latest

silver1surfer69

twing1_ wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

But there is a longer post about these issues by someone else who shows the math to prove it if you search it up. Worth reading. If the base bonuses updated, sets for 1-4 pieces would be in a much better place and the nerf of -50% in pvp would regulate things out while also allowing pve builds to prop up where players could start actually relying a little bit on hp regen.

Post that was referenced found here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/571123/health-recovery-inconsistency-and-viability#latest

cool, thx!

Andre_Noir

How about that Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic was nerfed without compensation ? Oh yeah, stamina users never use light so there no threads about how bad light armor is

rbfrgsp

The game rewards min-maxing not middle path builds. But this means that in PvP, in the armour category, it left medium armour ridiculously underpowered. In general, it goes like this:
Heavy = tanky
Light = magic users (in all their forms)
Medium = Stam non-tanks.

If they focused medium solely on damage output it would enable insane damage-bros to one-shot any medium armour player and any light armour player with their shields down.

So instead, they have calibrated armour around the middle path. That means light and heavy get some penalties to balance it out without making medium either way too weak in all contexts, or way too strong in a handful of contexts.

The new nerfs are fine-tuning this new system and are probably required to be honest. The alternatives are all far worse.

silver1surfer69

Andre_Noir wrote: »

How about that Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic was nerfed without compensation ? Oh yeah, stamina users never use light so there no threads about how bad light armor is

Totally agree. That light armor takes more dmg from martial and that heavy takes more from magical attacks, doesnt feel right, is detrimental to the gameplay and unlucky from devs imo.

silver1surfer69

rbfrgsp wrote: »

The game rewards min-maxing not middle path builds. But this means that in PvP, in the armour category, it left medium armour ridiculously underpowered. In general, it goes like this:
Heavy = tanky
Light = magic users (in all their forms)
Medium = Stam non-tanks.

If they focused medium solely on damage output it would enable insane damage-bros to one-shot any medium armour player and any light armour player with their shields down.

So instead, they have calibrated armour around the middle path. That means light and heavy get some penalties to balance it out without making medium either way too weak in all contexts, or way too strong in a handful of contexts.

The new nerfs are fine-tuning this new system and are probably required to be honest. The alternatives are all far worse.

Do you like the new system? I like the intention thats behind but tbh as it is now i dont like how it works atm. I agree that medium feels wrong atm. Especially since there is so much damage in the game since U29, not having high resistance makes you like a bug running around on the battlefield - one false step and youre dead!

rbfrgsp

I like the new armour system much more than the previous one. As I've said in other threads, you now get a feel that you're dressed in different equipment at each level.

Personally, I would have gone further. I don't think you should be able to dodge roll at all in full heavy armour. And martial attacks against light armour when the shields are down should be an absolute blood bath. But the penalties were never going to be that brutal so yeah I like what we got.

Zer0_CooL

No buffs for HA needed. The nerf on hp regen was not uncald for.

Anyron

Why should you get something as compensation? There's plenty of sets, skills and even racials which are penalized by battle spirit too.

It was changed. Deal with it

silver1surfer69

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

No buffs for HA needed. The nerf on hp regen was not uncald for.

I dont see it as buff and i agree that a nerf for health recovery in pvp was neccessary.

silver1surfer69

Anyron wrote: »

Why should you get something as compensation? There's plenty of sets, skills and even racials which are penalized by battle spirit too.

It was changed. Deal with it

As i already said in previous answer i agree that a nerf for health recovery in pvp was neccessary. The reason for my thought is that it was originally designed under circumstances that are not viable anymore. I dont se it as buff, or getting something but an update to the actual circumstances. That should be done for anything similar imo, so i dont want HA to be "better" then other armors. As it stands now the first part of the passive is useless for pvp, so imo, it should either be adjusted or just left out at all, what would be consequent and fiitting more than to have a reminisence to something dead what had a different purpose once. Edit: That is actually one of the core points i want to make. That HA was designed for health recovery. Each armor type has its recovery. I would argue the exact same way for stam or mag if they were cut in half in pvp.

Extinct_Solo_Player

just run medium armor, it's more tanky than heavy and has no penalties for using it.

silver1surfer69

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

just run medium armor, it's more tanky than heavy and has no penalties for using it.

Tbh i would love too, but it requires a different playstyle. The in and out with dodge roll. Im most used to brawler fight style and thats what i enjoy most, so from my experience (i tried and tested it) im kinda limited to heavy.

silver1surfer69

The course of this discussion lead me to a conclusion:

- Imo Health recovery should be capped by Battlespirit. I suggest a cap at 1800. -

This would follow a similar argumentation as the cap of resistance or the multiplicative increase of most things, eg block mitigation.

-> So for the topic of this thread, this would mean, if this cap would be implemented the passive can stay as it is (although i still feel that an increase of eg 20% by wearing 5 pieces is nothing compared to an increase of 20% stam or mag recovery and doesnt meet its goal what what supposedly intended by giving each armor type its recovery mag/stam/health - blue/green/red).

alberichtano

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

Andre_Noir wrote: »

How about that Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic was nerfed without compensation ? Oh yeah, stamina users never use light so there no threads about how bad light armor is

Totally agree. That light armor takes more dmg from martial and that heavy takes more from magical attacks, doesnt feel right, is detrimental to the gameplay and unlucky from devs imo.

I agree. I was just looking for a forum discussion about this very topic. It is silly that heavy armor, tank armor, should have the penalty of taking MORE damage, regardless of kind. Instead, why not nerf crit chance or crit damage or something.

Similarly, making light armor take more damage from weapon damage is really nasty, as light armor wearers tend to be already squishy. I am sure a better penalty of some sort could be devised.

And it is a tad odd that medium armor has no drawbacks. It makes it oddly unbalanced, and feels like ZOS loves stam-DDs, and hates everyone else. :-P

alberichtano

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

just run medium armor, it's more tanky than heavy and has no penalties for using it.

Mmm. Exactly. Not as it should be.

MirandaSharp

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

just run medium armor, it's more tanky than heavy and has no penalties for using it.

The PvP community was pretty clear in their hatred of anything heavy armor.

shrekt4303

Heavy armour is strong in this pvp meta even with the nerfs. Hp regen was probably abused more by dps classes like stamsorc who could kite and heal. Magicka builds are too prone to getting oneshot so counters to things like the dungeon boss stamcros arent prevelant. Their access to more pen and doing more damage is supposed to complete the trifecta of stam dps>magicka dps>tank>stam dps.

I think changing the health recovery to all stat recovery is fair. Pvp wise, light amour needs more of a buff than heavy.

silver1surfer69

Generally there is too much damage in pvp since the major cp change. I thought zos wanted to make pvp more beginner friendly, but the opposite just happened.

twing1_

They just need to standardize bonuses to health recovery across the board. 2-4 pc item set bonuses to health recovery are being valued at 129 health recovery, while 5 pc item set bonuses value it at a much higher value (387 health recovery, as evidenced by beekeepers gear/endurance set).

Given how weak health recovery currently is in both pve and pvp, they should bump up all sources of health recovery to be 3x as potent as bonuses to Magicka/stamina recovery (as beekeepers and endurance sets already do).

This would bump up base character health regen to 1542 health recovery (exactly 3x the 514 magicka/stamina recovery at base level) and 2-4 pc item set bonuses to 387 health recovery (3x 129). This would give all players easier access to stacking health recovery, even at the base level. The heavy armor health recovery % bonus would recurve a sizeable boost without changing its passives, while still keeping the overall power of health recovery far below that of what it was before it was affected by battlespirit.

This change would also increase survivability on all armor types (though significantly more on heavy armor because of the % health recovery modifiers), which would help to off set the crazy high damage we are seeing nowadays brought on by the recent addition of 1000 spell/weapon damage at the base level.

Here is the link to a more detailed thread about this, complete with mathematical backing: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/571123/health-recovery-inconsistency-and-viability#latest

aurelius_fx

rbfrgsp wrote: »

I like the new armour system much more than the previous one. As I've said in other threads, you now get a feel that you're dressed in different equipment at each level.

Personally, I would have gone further. I don't think you should be able to dodge roll at all in full heavy armour. And martial attacks against light armour when the shields are down should be an absolute blood bath. But the penalties were never going to be that brutal so yeah I like what we got.

Imo heavy armor should have great mobility cons, such as increasing the cost of gap closers, movement skills (streak for instance), sprint, decrease movement speed further, and increase time it takes to get into stealth while maintaining the *physical* defense bonus, so that being tanky in heavy armor actually feels heavy, not trivial mandatory gear. Mobility is king in PvP, but none of those cons should be huge enough to hamper their other damage abilities.

silver1surfer69

aurelius_fx wrote: »

rbfrgsp wrote: »

I like the new armour system much more than the previous one. As I've said in other threads, you now get a feel that you're dressed in different equipment at each level.

Personally, I would have gone further. I don't think you should be able to dodge roll at all in full heavy armour. And martial attacks against light armour when the shields are down should be an absolute blood bath. But the penalties were never going to be that brutal so yeah I like what we got.

Imo heavy armor should have great mobility cons, such as increasing the cost of gap closers, movement skills (streak for instance), sprint, decrease movement speed further, and increase time it takes to get into stealth while maintaining the *physical* defense bonus, so that being tanky in heavy armor actually feels heavy, not trivial mandatory gear. Mobility is king in PvP, but none of those cons should be huge enough to hamper their other damage abilities.

I agree that mobilit is king in pvp atm. In the past you could go other routes too like tankiness but atm its unbalanced in tht way tht mobility is kind without alternative, especially since mobilty builds also have the highest dmg. ZOS pls balance in that way that there are other solutions then mobility (i expect a lot of hot comments from medium armor users now).

Urzigurumash

aurelius_fx wrote: »

Imo heavy armor should have great mobility cons, such as increasing the cost of gap closers, movement skills (streak for instance), sprint, decrease movement speed further, and increase time it takes to get into stealth while maintaining the *physical* defense bonus, so that being tanky in heavy armor actually feels heavy, not trivial mandatory gear. Mobility is king in PvP, but none of those cons should be huge enough to hamper their other damage abilities.

As you suggest additional penalties on Heavy to enforce a "heavier" feel, you're also implying that the base resistances of Heavy be increased? Or the base resistances of Medium and Light be lowered?

I'm not opposed to more cost increases in Heavy - but only with a bonus to Melee Damage Done, especially Gapclosers, both of which were old iterations of an Orc passive then meant to manifest in Nirn the Earthly reality that Momentum = Velocity x Mass.

silver1surfer69

Urzigurumash wrote: »

aurelius_fx wrote: »

Imo heavy armor should have great mobility cons, such as increasing the cost of gap closers, movement skills (streak for instance), sprint, decrease movement speed further, and increase time it takes to get into stealth while maintaining the *physical* defense bonus, so that being tanky in heavy armor actually feels heavy, not trivial mandatory gear. Mobility is king in PvP, but none of those cons should be huge enough to hamper their other damage abilities.

As you suggest additional penalties on Heavy to enforce a "heavier" feel, you're also implying that the base resistances of Heavy be increased? Or the base resistances of Medium and Light be lowered?

I'm not opposed to more cost increases in Heavy - but only with a bonus to Melee Damage Done, especially Gapclosers, both of which were old iterations of an Orc passive then meant to manifest in Nirn the Earthly reality that Momentum = Velocity x Mass.

Agree!

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I don't agree with the premise that a nerf to something that is overperforming (both Heavy Armor and Health Regen fit this bill in PVP) deserves compensation.

Andre_Noir

Urzigurumash wrote: »

aurelius_fx wrote: »

Imo heavy armor should have great mobility cons, such as increasing the cost of gap closers, movement skills (streak for instance), sprint, decrease movement speed further, and increase time it takes to get into stealth while maintaining the *physical* defense bonus, so that being tanky in heavy armor actually feels heavy, not trivial mandatory gear. Mobility is king in PvP, but none of those cons should be huge enough to hamper their other damage abilities.

As you suggest additional penalties on Heavy to enforce a "heavier" feel, you're also implying that the base resistances of Heavy be increased? Or the base resistances of Medium and Light be lowered?

I'm not opposed to more cost increases in Heavy - but only with a bonus to Melee Damage Done, especially Gapclosers, both of which were old iterations of an Orc passive then meant to manifest in Nirn the Earthly reality that Momentum = Velocity x Mass.

No matter real or eso world but armor means defence. Heavy armor mean heavy defence with heavy weight and heavy drawbacks. And IRL french knights lost to england's long bow and later every armor lost to gunpowder, even walls lost. Because offence is always step ahead defense for many fundamental reasons

Urzigurumash

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Because offence is always step ahead defense for many fundamental reasons

"An Orc warrior has two loves: his sword and his shield"

Of course you are correct. My arguments about this topic are mostly a rebuttal to the idea that "if you put on Heavy Armor, any skill which deals damage should be greyed out", which is a facetious expression of an idea that I used to see discussed.

I want distinct character archetypes to in fact be distinct. Ninjas, Archers, Barbarians, and Knights shouldn't all be wearing the same sort of armor, nor should Monks and Paladins, nor Battlemages and Spellswords, etc.

I'm all for accentuating the differences between things, but I'm not for making them unviable in PvP in a punitive way based on some past overperformance. Just look at Blazing Shield, on the subject of tanks doing damage. Not enough Paladins out there these days, in my opinion.

silver1surfer69

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

aurelius_fx wrote: »

Imo heavy armor should have great mobility cons, such as increasing the cost of gap closers, movement skills (streak for instance), sprint, decrease movement speed further, and increase time it takes to get into stealth while maintaining the *physical* defense bonus, so that being tanky in heavy armor actually feels heavy, not trivial mandatory gear. Mobility is king in PvP, but none of those cons should be huge enough to hamper their other damage abilities.

As you suggest additional penalties on Heavy to enforce a "heavier" feel, you're also implying that the base resistances of Heavy be increased? Or the base resistances of Medium and Light be lowered?

I'm not opposed to more cost increases in Heavy - but only with a bonus to Melee Damage Done, especially Gapclosers, both of which were old iterations of an Orc passive then meant to manifest in Nirn the Earthly reality that Momentum = Velocity x Mass.

No matter real or eso world but armor means defence. Heavy armor mean heavy defence with heavy weight and heavy drawbacks. And IRL french knights lost to england's long bow and later every armor lost to gunpowder, even walls lost. Because offence is always step ahead defense for many fundamental reasons

Interesting view of things. That is not true for martial arts, where you have an advantage when you can react to something or counter something. If you just take this game its not true either imo, becuase a glass canon with no defensive has no good cards vs experienced players, that cant be oneshooted.