Is Templar a viable Tank in Blackwood??

Iccotak

I've been going over the decision to make my main a healer for group content, he's normally a tank but the real endgame content like Vet HM trials just seemed out of reach for my build - based on what you've seen, do you think that Templars have more viable Tank options now?

EDIT: I am working on my Templar tank build for endgame dungeons and trials. I see alot of builds ask for Yolnahkriin or a Cloudrest set - what is the next best set to use so then I can earn that gear?

WrathOfInnos

Templar tanks can do any vet HM. They don’t really bring anything unique if there are other Templars in the group, but if you’re the only one then Minor Sorcery is an important group buff. Templar tank also allows healers to be Necro + Warden, which has some advantages over needing a Templar healer.

SimonBelmont

With 5 pieces of Tormentor and Focused Charge morphed to AOE, Templar tanks are god-tier where aggro is concerned.

People often say that "non-boss aggro doesn't matter."

I suspect that's because so few bother to make any effort in that department. So everyone is used to ignoring it. But, when a tank actually has the tools to hold all mobs on them, it makes a noticeable difference. One of which is: way less healing-effort required from your Healer. Which means they can afford to contribute even more to the DPS.

People also say that "tanks aren't supposed to do damage", or some-such thing...

That is absurd! The more damage the party, as a whole, can put out - the better! Why exclude Tanks? Templars, while set up as tanks, do rather a lot of damage...compared to other classes.

In general, Templar Tanks are well suited to keeping up a very fast pace throughout a dungeon, without slacking on their duties. By far my favorite class to tank on!

My DK is retired to the role of Crafter. Who wants/needs half a dozen different defensives, coupled with lame offensives!? That kind of game-play is so boring...

Iccotak

SimonBelmont wrote: »

With 5 pieces of Tormentor and Focused Charge morphed to AOE, Templar tanks are god-tier where aggro is concerned.

@SimonBelmont What's your tank build?

BXR_Lonestar

I do all kinds of hard vet content on my templar tank. Yeah, they're not the best tanks and they're missing a lot of what you would want in a main tank, but I have mine set up to be a heavy armored healer who can hold agro, and he's good for pretty much 95% of the content out there, including hard vet stuff. I like to use him because he fits better in a 3/1 group format than my DK tank who is set up more for trials and who is more reliant on having a healer in the group. So without a healer, my DK tank can't survive some fights very well, whereas my templar tank can basically be self contained and take care of himself.

BejaProphet

I too look forward to testing the Templar’s new tool kit.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Templar tanks have always been viable if you know how to build them right... I learned to tank on one, and they're by far my favourite class. They have the only aoe taunt in the game, making crowd control a breeze for me, and I can liberally use stamina for silver leash and whatever else as repentance will refill my bar immediately. They have excellent block mitigation and resistances in their rune, and next patch that rune will be an incredibly strong heal. Sunshield is incredibly strong, especially when paired with defensive posture. It's all about who's playing the class and how it's played.

Iccotak

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73_hBYKGFAc

StarOfElyon

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Templar tanks have always been viable if you know how to build them right... I learned to tank on one, and they're by far my favourite class. They have the only aoe taunt in the game, making crowd control a breeze for me, and I can liberally use stamina for silver leash and whatever else as repentance will refill my bar immediately. They have excellent block mitigation and resistances in their rune, and next patch that rune will be an incredibly strong heal. Sunshield is incredibly strong, especially when paired with defensive posture. It's all about who's playing the class and how it's played.

AOE taunt? What do you mean?

BejaProphet

He means using the tormentor set with a templar aoe charge ability. It will taunt all near impact.

MashmalloMan

BejaProphet wrote: »

He means using the tormentor set with a templar aoe charge ability. It will taunt all near impact.

You can make any class have an aoe taunt via 2H Stampede or Werewolf if you're spicy.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Templar tanks have always been viable if you know how to build them right... I learned to tank on one, and they're by far my favourite class. They have the only aoe taunt in the game, making crowd control a breeze for me, and I can liberally use stamina for silver leash and whatever else as repentance will refill my bar immediately. They have excellent block mitigation and resistances in their rune, and next patch that rune will be an incredibly strong heal. Sunshield is incredibly strong, especially when paired with defensive posture. It's all about who's playing the class and how it's played.

AOE taunt? What do you mean?

Templar tanks can use their focused charge ability paired with the Tormentor set to have an immediate crowd taunt. It makes no death veteran runs a breeze, as controlling a room is quick. Paired with the perfected Yolnahkriin I wear on my tank, the stats are lovely too.

BejaProphet

MashmalloMan wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

He means using the tormentor set with a templar aoe charge ability. It will taunt all near impact.

You can make any class have an aoe taunt via 2H Stampede or Werewolf if you're spicy.

True. Less optimal but true.

etchedpixels

MashmalloMan wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

He means using the tormentor set with a templar aoe charge ability. It will taunt all near impact.

You can make any class have an aoe taunt via 2H Stampede or Werewolf if you're spicy.

And werewolf templar tanks are the elite for this yes. It's very good for normal dungeons and the like but for some harder content taunting everything in the blast radius is not always a good plan especially if your healer isn't used to it.

Templar is already probably the strongest class for herding newbies through dungeons because of the ability to mix heals and tanking effectively combined with tormentor and the aoe charge to rescue squishies in trouble who've not yet learned to run for the tank when in trouble. It's also one of the best classes for levelling as a tank when you want to keep to short queues because you've got a combo of jabs for doing damage and 1H/shield even before you you get bar switching.

I have several templar mag-tanks for running mostly normal dungeon stuff, often mostly light armour to avoid all the mess they made of heavy armour in U28. Far better to spam shields and get a load of magicka regen. For heavy tormentor and hatchlings seems to work well as a combo. You hit a shield and leap in and the combination gives you a ton of protection from the fact you just pulled the lot at once.

SimonBelmont

Iccotak wrote: »

SimonBelmont wrote: »

With 5 pieces of Tormentor and Focused Charge morphed to AOE, Templar tanks are god-tier where aggro is concerned.

@SimonBelmont What's your tank build?

I'm not sure how much detail you want...

Stamina:			64

Head:			Mighty Chudan's, Reinforced
Shoulder:		Mighty Chudan's, Sturdy

Chest:			Crimson, Reinforced
Hands:			Crimson, Sturdy
Waist:			Crimson, Sturdy
Legs:			Crimson, Reinforced
Feet:			Crimson, Sturdy

Glyphs:			Maximum Health

Jewels:			Tormentor, Healthy, Tri-recov (though, Protective &-or HP-recov is fine too)

Front:			1h Weapon, Tormentor, Decisive, Oblivion (Drain Stamina on a backup 1h, but rarely needed)
Front:			Shield, Tormentor, Sturdy, Maximum Health

Back:			Bow, Tormentor (or Maelstrom), Infused, Crusher

Front Action-bar:	Spiked Bone Shield, Repentance, Biting Jabs, Pierce Armor, Explosive Charge
Front Ultimate:	Flawless Dawnbreaker (sometimes Aggressive Horn, Reviving Barrier or Shield Discipline; situation depending)

Back Action-bar:	Extended Ritual, Repentance, Luminous Shards, Endless Hail (or the other morph), Silver Leash
Back Ultimate:	Shooting Star (OP as [F]antastic [U]ltimately [C]uddly [K]angaroos!!!)

Best Food Ever:	Bewitched Sugar Skulls

Mundis:			Lover (because my "main-role" is DPS, but when I'm going to be tanking a lot I grab Serpent)

For tanking solo content, I make these changes to the above:

Head:			Crimson, Reinforced
Shoulder:		Stonekeeper's, Sturdy
Hands:			Unleashed, Sturdy

Glyphs:			Maximum Health

Ring:			Ring of the Pale Order

Jewels:			Unleashed, Infused, Tri-recov

Front:			1h Weapon, Unleashed, Decisive, Oblivion (Drain Stamina on a backup 1h, but rarely needed)
Front:			Shield, Unleashed, Sturdy, Maximum Health

Back:			Bow, Unleashed (or Maelstrom), Infused, Crusher

Back Action-bar:	Swap out Repentance for Restoring Focus (because you're not getting these resists passively from Mighty Chudan's anymore)

Any class could use this "Tormentor-centered" build, by using a 2h Weapon on their back bar, in place of a bow, and use Stampede to AOE Taunt, as well as swapping in their own Class-specific Abilities.

Athan1

It's very encouraging to read positive things about tankplars, there's just so much skepticism about them out there! And the new changes will make them even more viable. Looking forward to it!

I'm running a healplar atm but also considering a light armor magtank for easy stuff, somehow I almost reach the spell resistance cap.

BejaProphet

For the record, tormentor is pretty awesome even if you aren’t using an aoe taunt maneuver. My DK tank is running it this patch with standard S&B and ice staff.

Arbitrator

Without AoE CC, Templar has always been the worst Tank in the game. (Which it should be great at considering the theme...)

Templar can stay alive, yes, but without AoE CC to control enemies, it makes them a subpar tank compared to other classes.

If they would ever add AoE CC to the Templar it would make them much more viable.

SimonBelmont

Ask a healer (or several) their opinion on 'tanks with staves'. I have.

So far, more than half have said some version of, "when I see a tank with a staff, I know I'm going to have to work harder. And if they die more than once, I'll probably be blamed. I don't get why they don't just use a shields." The other half never seem to have an opinion, either way.

And, the "Templars are the worst tanks" meme was never based on anything.

Just as the "DKs are the best tanks" meme was always based largely on sympathy. Because, thats pretty much the only role their class abilities are suitable for. If not for tanking, what are they for?

Swen_von_Walhallion

Arbitrator wrote: »

Without AoE CC, Templar has always been the worst Tank in the game. (Which it should be great at considering the theme...)

Templar can stay alive, yes, but without AoE CC to control enemies, it makes them a subpar tank compared to other classes.

If they would ever add AoE CC to the Templar it would make them much more viable.

Aoe CC isnt big problem, much worst for hard contet is lack of selfheal, when all other clases have % base self heal temlar must rely on noramly heal which is not cheap and stron and 8k heal for 45k HP tank is nothing, specialy when there is still chance it will heal other in party not you. Hope changes in next chapter fix it.

Athan1

Next patch we will get 2 health-based heals, which is positive.

We used to have more cc in shards or the sacred ground passive, but we lost them. There's still access to cc abilities; imo the extra survivability and heals that tankplars have outweigh the lack of class-based cc.

Xuhora

templar tanks will be subpar to other classes (even sorcs and NBs) as long as we (templars in generall) dont have something unique we bring for the group. Minor breach was taken from stamplar and shoved into S&B taunt, the class buff can be provided with a good uptime by a healer or a DD.

the changes on PTS are a step in the right direction, but it doesnt suffice (yet) for templar beeing good tanks.
Sure you can complete ever DLC HM Dungeon with a templar tank, and if you wanted you could do trial HMs as well i guess, but other classes are just better options.

ResidentContrarian

Maybe, for certain Warden outclasses every other class in the tank department on Blackwood IMO...

The power to solo vet trials...yeah...

Septimus_Magna

Arbitrator wrote: »

Without AoE CC, Templar has always been the worst Tank in the game. (Which it should be great at considering the theme...)

Templar can stay alive, yes, but without AoE CC to control enemies, it makes them a subpar tank compared to other classes.

If they would ever add AoE CC to the Templar it would make them much more viable.

AOE CC is just a tool to control the mobs, if you can taunt them all (like some suggested with Tormentor+Explosive Charge) you control all the mobs to a similar effect.

You can always use Turn Evil to AOE fear or Time Freeze to AOE stun mobs.

Arbitrator

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Without AoE CC, Templar has always been the worst Tank in the game. (Which it should be great at considering the theme...)

Templar can stay alive, yes, but without AoE CC to control enemies, it makes them a subpar tank compared to other classes.

If they would ever add AoE CC to the Templar it would make them much more viable.

AOE CC is just a tool to control the mobs, if you can taunt them all (like some suggested with Tormentor+Explosive Charge) you control all the mobs to a similar effect.

You can always use Turn Evil to AOE fear or Time Freeze to AOE stun mobs.

And all of the options you mentioned are not thematic with the Templar class, you have to go out of class to get those options.

Every other class has some form of AoE CC in their class lines except Templar. It's long been due and has been a consistent problem with Tanking since launch.

Templar has plenty of things that need to be fixed and adjusted but they are completely missing AoE CC, and the only real form of CC they have in-class is a single target Javelin that throws the enemy away from them (despite most of the skill line being melee based).

Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Without AoE CC, Templar has always been the worst Tank in the game. (Which it should be great at considering the theme...)

Templar can stay alive, yes, but without AoE CC to control enemies, it makes them a subpar tank compared to other classes.

If they would ever add AoE CC to the Templar it would make them much more viable.

Aoe CC isnt big problem, much worst for hard contet is lack of selfheal, when all other clases have % base self heal temlar must rely on noramly heal which is not cheap and stron and 8k heal for 45k HP tank is nothing, specialy when there is still chance it will heal other in party not you. Hope changes in next chapter fix it.

AoE CC is a big problem and it's one of the many reasons Templar is considered a lesser Tank. Every other class has it, Templar should too. Templar has nothing unique to bring to the group AND is missing a vital component to be a proper tank.

I do agree Templars need better self-healing. It's crazy the class with the original "unique" healing tree lacks a proper self heal. Sustain is a very important function for a Tank, and extremely so for how this game is designed.

Starlight_Whisper

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Templar tanks have always been viable if you know how to build them right... I learned to tank on one, and they're by far my favourite class. They have the only aoe taunt in the game, making crowd control a breeze for me, and I can liberally use stamina for silver leash and whatever else as repentance will refill my bar immediately. They have excellent block mitigation and resistances in their rune, and next patch that rune will be an incredibly strong heal. Sunshield is incredibly strong, especially when paired with defensive posture. It's all about who's playing the class and how it's played.

AOE taunt? What do you mean?

Torremtor set and Templar aoe charge to make aoe taunt

Starlight_Whisper

Arbitrator wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Without AoE CC, Templar has always been the worst Tank in the game. (Which it should be great at considering the theme...)

Templar can stay alive, yes, but without AoE CC to control enemies, it makes them a subpar tank compared to other classes.

If they would ever add AoE CC to the Templar it would make them much more viable.

AOE CC is just a tool to control the mobs, if you can taunt them all (like some suggested with Tormentor+Explosive Charge) you control all the mobs to a similar effect.

You can always use Turn Evil to AOE fear or Time Freeze to AOE stun mobs.

And all of the options you mentioned are not thematic with the Templar class, you have to go out of class to get those options.

Every other class has some form of AoE CC in their class lines except Templar. It's long been due and has been a consistent problem with Tanking since launch.

Templar has plenty of things that need to be fixed and adjusted but they are completely missing AoE CC, and the only real form of CC they have in-class is a single target Javelin that throws the enemy away from them (despite most of the skill line being melee based).

Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »

Arbitrator wrote: »

Without AoE CC, Templar has always been the worst Tank in the game. (Which it should be great at considering the theme...)

Templar can stay alive, yes, but without AoE CC to control enemies, it makes them a subpar tank compared to other classes.

If they would ever add AoE CC to the Templar it would make them much more viable.

Aoe CC isnt big problem, much worst for hard contet is lack of selfheal, when all other clases have % base self heal temlar must rely on noramly heal which is not cheap and stron and 8k heal for 45k HP tank is nothing, specialy when there is still chance it will heal other in party not you. Hope changes in next chapter fix it.

AoE CC is a big problem and it's one of the many reasons Templar is considered a lesser Tank. Every other class has it, Templar should too. Templar has nothing unique to bring to the group AND is missing a vital component to be a proper tank.

I do agree Templars need better self-healing. It's crazy the class with the original "unique" healing tree lacks a proper self heal. Sustain is a very important function for a Tank, and extremely so for how this game is designed.

But Templar class has things for group. Just because Templar is still most abundant Healer class it suffers in people saying that.

SimonBelmont

The concerns and objections I'm seeing here in this thread, regarding Templar tanks, are still regurgitating the old dogma and rhetoric...which were based on nothing.

What do I mean by "nothing"? Well, many of the disparaging remarks are clearly the result of someone staring at the ability lists and crunching numbers; NOT investing in a build, getting into groups and actually tanking some content. Armchair experts...in other words.

Why would you need a % based heal, or a heal that's able to cover more than 20% or so of your health pool? If you are taking damage at a rate that requires such powerful self-heals, you've got to be: missing your blocks, standing in bad, tolerating a fake healer, following a goofy build, equipping a staff; something...

Work on correcting these issues, and you will likely find that you really don't need that much healing.

Not once has a healer told me that my Templar tank was hard to keep alive. And even when the rest of the party fails to move out of bad, I can usually solo the boss indefinitely. Just keep that cleanse on the ground, and use whatever defensives you've invested in, between Crimson procs, and you almost can't die...

And, if you did need a heal which was metered out more frequently (albeit a smaller heal), you could always swap out Crimson for Leeching. Leeching actually does provide slightly more HPM than Crimson, on a single target. Though, Leeching falls way behind Crimson on HPM, when there are multiple targets. But then, that goes back to: how big of a heal should you even need..?

SimonBelmont

Arbitrator wrote: »

And all of the options you mentioned are not thematic with the Templar class, you have to go out of class to get those options.

Every other class has some form of AoE CC in their class lines except Templar. It's long been due and has been a consistent problem with Tanking since launch.

Templar has plenty of things that need to be fixed and adjusted but they are completely missing AoE CC, and the only real form of CC they have in-class is a single target Javelin that throws the enemy away from them (despite most of the skill line being melee based).

Since when has it been a problem to include abilities from lines outside our class in our build? Weapon lines, Guild lines, PvP lines; these help round out our character's build. That is how it should be.

And no, every class but Templars do not have an AOE CC. Besides; taunts and CCs should really be viewed for what they are; separate effects. Taunted mobs can be herded and moved. Feared, stunned, whatever-ed' mobs typically can't.

Templars do not need to be "fixed". They are fine. There are plenty of CCs available in other lines, if we want them... Again, this is not to be considered a problem; it's how the game is meant to be played.

If any aspect of ESO needs "fixing" (apart from the obvious bugs), it is the disparity between Magicka and Stamina. Magicka (and Staff use) is very over-represented in ESO. This breaks from the ES cannon in a major way!..

Why is it so over-represented..? Because most players will naturally gravitate towards whatever offers them the best cost/benefit rate. I.E.: Magicka is OP...in a general sense. And it negatively impacts many areas of the game. BGs have basically degraded into Laser-Tag. We may as well start calling this game "Harry Potter Online (...plus Elves!)".

And that's not on the Players!.. That's on the Dev Team.

Iccotak

SimonBelmont wrote: »

Why would you need a % based heal, or a heal that's able to cover more than 20% or so of your health pool? If you are taking damage at a rate that requires such powerful self-heals, you've got to be: missing your blocks, standing in bad, tolerating a fake healer, following a goofy build, equipping a staff; something..

What's wrong with equipping a staff? From what I understand Destruction Staves are a must for Tanks in general

BejaProphet

@SimonBelmont

A tank needs a good heal because things don’t always go as planned. As a DK, I very seldom use green dragon blood. I sometimes go the whole dungeon without using it. But when something goes wrong and I need it, no other tool in my kit will suffice.

Templars don’t have that. This is a disadvantage. Spin it how you want. Make up your own mind if it is a minor inconvenience, a crippling flaw or somewhere in between.

But at the end of the day, it is a potentially life saving tool the Templar doesn’t have, and other classes do.

Therefore the statements about Templars having a disadvantage is not based on nothing.. You can say critiques about Templars are overblown. You can say that good design minimizes this issue. Both are probably true. But these complaints are indeed based on something.