Who released the dragons?

xtni

Who released the dragons?

Simple question...

Abnur Tharn + Khamira + vestige? Like we did in the intro?

Abnur Tharn alone, like what Khamira says if we dont do the intro quest?

Abnur Tharn + Khamira as we see in the cinematic?

I am pretty sure only one of them can be canon...

Vevvev

One that includes the Vestige. Don't you love ZOS and their decision to make things jump around when you don't do stuff in order?!?

Nord_Raseri

Whichever one you see/experience I guess

NordSwordnBoard

Awake or release?

bluebird

Who let the Dragons out? Who? Who? Who? Who? Who?

Gythral

I blame Khamira...

VaranisArano

If you never do the Elsweyr Prologue, Abnur Tharn did it and Khamira was trying to stop him and Euraxia, perhaps reluctantly helping Abnur because Euraxia is worse.

If you do the Elsweyr Prologue, you and Abnur do it, while Khamira reluctantly teams up with you guys because at least you aren't Euraxia. Sometimes this involves some unstated time travel, as you go back in time to release the dragons after you've already saved dragon-ravaged Elsweyr. Nice job breaking it, hero!

In the cinematic, it appears that the Breton player character did not do the Prologue and started in the cart.

xtni

Wait... why is Sai Sahan back in Elsweyr as well... alive? I am pretty sure he was sacrificed. That was not explained in a prologue, was it ?? Am I doing this wrong?

_ibexrc

xtni wrote: »

Wait... why is Sai Sahan back in Elsweyr as well... alive? I am pretty sure he was sacrificed. That was not explained in a prologue, was it ?? Am I doing this wrong?

People have trouble staying dead near a vestige. (And no, there is no canon answer.)

BejaProphet

It was me 😔

JoDiMageio

xtni wrote: »

Wait... why is Sai Sahan back in Elsweyr as well... alive? I am pretty sure he was sacrificed. That was not explained in a prologue, was it ?? Am I doing this wrong?

Depends on the choice you made in the MQ.
And no, they never gave a good reason for his return, nor Lyris', for that matter.

You're not doing it wrong... the game kinda is.

Ard01

_ibexrc wrote: »

xtni wrote: »

Wait... why is Sai Sahan back in Elsweyr as well... alive? I am pretty sure he was sacrificed. That was not explained in a prologue, was it ?? Am I doing this wrong?

People have trouble staying dead near a vestige. (And no, there is no canon answer.)

Well given the vestige is the ONLY being in Tamriel with free agency it kind of makes sense.

What is really mind blowing is Sotha Sil has realized everything is a construct devoid of free angency and only the prisoner (you the vestige) is free to make a choice. You learn this in Clockwork City when he gives you his epilogue.

He comes just shy of admitting only you are real.

ArchMikem

Abnur brought the tablet to the door and combined the two pieces. Combining the pieces broke the seal. Khamira and the Vestige were just along for the ride.

driosketch

xtni wrote: »

I am pretty sure only one of them can be canon...

First time in an Elder Scrolls game?

Wiki
For the book, see The Warp in the West (Book).
The Warp in the West was an event that transformed the political landscape of the Iliac Bay region of High Rock and Hammerfell. Sometimes called the Miracle of Peace,[1] this event occurred at the end of The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. It is a kind of event known as a Dragon Break, during which the laws of causality are suspended and time is flexible.

Ratzkifal

driosketch wrote: »

xtni wrote: »

I am pretty sure only one of them can be canon...

First time in an Elder Scrolls game?

Wiki
For the book, see The Warp in the West (Book).
The Warp in the West was an event that transformed the political landscape of the Iliac Bay region of High Rock and Hammerfell. Sometimes called the Miracle of Peace,[1] this event occurred at the end of The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. It is a kind of event known as a Dragon Break, during which the laws of causality are suspended and time is flexible.

I don't get why people keep bringing up the Dragonbreak as the solution to all the problems in the lore of ESO. There is no dragonbreak going on in this game. In fact it's the opposite - we help prevent a dragonbreak from happening in at least one quest line of ESO (which implies that there currently isn't one going on).

There is a difference between "we don't know what is true" and "all accounts are simultaneously true, even the contradictions".

zaria

This one is innocent

driosketch

Ratzkifal wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

xtni wrote: »

I am pretty sure only one of them can be canon...

First time in an Elder Scrolls game?

Wiki
For the book, see The Warp in the West (Book).
The Warp in the West was an event that transformed the political landscape of the Iliac Bay region of High Rock and Hammerfell. Sometimes called the Miracle of Peace,[1] this event occurred at the end of The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. It is a kind of event known as a Dragon Break, during which the laws of causality are suspended and time is flexible.

I don't get why people keep bringing up the Dragonbreak as the solution to all the problems in the lore of ESO. There is no dragonbreak going on in this game. In fact it's the opposite - we help prevent a dragonbreak from happening in at least one quest line of ESO (which implies that there currently isn't one going on).

There is a difference between "we don't know what is true" and "all accounts are simultaneously true, even the contradictions".

I'll elaborate. Elder Scrolls is a video game. It's not a movie or book, but it does have a narrative. It's also an open world game where player choices affect how events turn out. Which is fine to a certain extent, within a single game. But the Elder Scrolls is also a series. Meaning things like a time warp are needed to fit the multiple endings of the second game into the canon of the ongoing narrative.

Dragon Break was just an example, not an answer to the question, but a refute of the premise. TES is shaped by players and a need to account for them as much as the writers of the original script. It's why ESO is set in the 2nd Era, so they can make a mess without destroying the established lore.

And to be quite honest, no, there is not a difference between obscured facts or unreliable narrations and a literal time paradox. Both are cop outs, a bit of flair and spin to cover for the fact that the narrative can't be too tightly woven because players will do things out of order.

Ratzkifal

driosketch wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

xtni wrote: »

I am pretty sure only one of them can be canon...

First time in an Elder Scrolls game?

Wiki
For the book, see The Warp in the West (Book).
The Warp in the West was an event that transformed the political landscape of the Iliac Bay region of High Rock and Hammerfell. Sometimes called the Miracle of Peace,[1] this event occurred at the end of The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. It is a kind of event known as a Dragon Break, during which the laws of causality are suspended and time is flexible.

I don't get why people keep bringing up the Dragonbreak as the solution to all the problems in the lore of ESO. There is no dragonbreak going on in this game. In fact it's the opposite - we help prevent a dragonbreak from happening in at least one quest line of ESO (which implies that there currently isn't one going on).

There is a difference between "we don't know what is true" and "all accounts are simultaneously true, even the contradictions".

I'll elaborate. Elder Scrolls is a video game. It's not a movie or book, but it does have a narrative. It's also an open world game where player choices affect how events turn out. Which is fine to a certain extent, within a single game. But the Elder Scrolls is also a series. Meaning things like a time warp are needed to fit the multiple endings of the second game into the canon of the ongoing narrative.

Dragon Break was just an example, not an answer to the question, but a refute of the premise. TES is shaped by players and a need to account for them as much as the writers of the original script. It's why ESO is set in the 2nd Era, so they can make a mess without destroying the established lore.

And to be quite honest, no, there is not a difference between obscured facts or unreliable narrations and a literal time paradox. Both are cop outs, a bit of flair and spin to cover for the fact that the narrative can't be too tightly woven because players will do things out of order.

I realise that this wasn't your answer specifically to this issue, but it comes up on the forum again and again and again.
I dislike how loosely some people throw these words around. It kind of takes away from the dragonbreak if every inconsistency automatically is due to one and readers who haven't gotten too deep into the lore yet will get the wrong idea from it. That's why I felt the need to speak up here to avoid potential confusion for others and the resulting spread of misinformation. I don't think you are one of these people, and I know your mention of it was not meant to provide an answer, but I have seen enough of people being serious when they claim that events in ESO are due to a dragonbreak, that I felt it needed to be said here again.

As for your point about unreliable narrator and a time paradox being essentially the same... I would disagree - that's definitely not the case. A timeparadox is a paradox, and unless the paradox is prevented from ever happening through some reality warping timetraveller, it will stay a paradox. An unreliable narrator is only unreliable as long as there is no further supporting evidence. But this further evidence might appear later on in future content. But not all (fictional) paradoxes can be resolved with additional information. That's why I would say they are different.

Now back to the actual question about the cinematics vs what happens in the game seems more paradoxical on the level of irreconsiliability appropriate for a dragonbreak, but looking at it realistically, none of the promotional trailers ever showed us in exact detail what happens in the game, so I would not take that account as canon at all. Did our DC player characters get killed and raised as undead at the hands of Mannimarco to fight the Dominion and Pact, just like in the trailer? No.
To quote Todd Howard on truth in the Elder Scrolls

Like I said there, people want to know truth, but even my perspective is one version of truth of what happened in the history of Elder Scrolls and so forth. I would tamper their desire to have all mysteries revealed, because mysteries are good for a fantasy world to have. [...] It's kind of what I said in the panel. "What's the order of priority?" If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, in the manual, that's the third. If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right! But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third."

So if the trailer screen and game screen contradict each other, I'd say it's the game that has the higher priority until further supporting evidence appears ingame.

Ryuvain

Mostly Tharns fault. He didn't intend to release dragons but was exploring while Khamira just came along.

My interpretation anyway.

spartaxoxo

Abnur did. Regardless of who is alongside him at time, Tharn is always the primary reason they are released.

M_Volsung

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Abnur did. Regardless of who is alongside him at time, Tharn is always the primary reason they are released.

It's simple... if something is going horribly wrong, blame a Tharn.

DaiKahn

BejaProphet wrote: »

It was me 😔

Damnit Beja, how many times did we tell you not to touch the tablets, huh?! But nooooo, you just had to go and put them together saying, "Don't tell me what to do, I'm a Prophet!"

Now look what you've done! You've cursed us with, "Dragon's! In your own homeland! What are you going to do?!" forever and ever!

Recremen

xtni wrote: »

I am pretty sure only one of them can be canon...

This is not the Elder Scrolls way. But if the event ever gets referenced at all in a future game/future content, then it will just be described generically, like "dragons were released during a conflict within the Tharn family" or somesuch.

JKorr

If Abnur didn't, Euraxia/her agents would have. Might have taken them a bit longer, but it would have happened.

oddbasket

Pretty sure it was Stibbons again...

Varana

At the time of the game, all possible versions of an event are true - each version for that character. The player creates their own story. In ESO's especially nonlinear storytelling, that gets even more confusing because you can do things out of order, but for questions like "who released the dragons" and conflicting answers depending on your character's playthrough, only one is active for that character at one time.

For posterity, like what a historical record in TES6 might say about ESO's events, they either go with the generic "someone including Tharn did it", preserving your character's story. Or they declare one version as canon, maybe acknowledging other outcomes (if possible) as conflicting views.

The Warp in the West at the end of TES2:Daggerfall was the only time they used the Dragonbreak to make all possible endings canon at the same time. It was a genius idea but it's also good that they used this very, very sparingly. (The other known dragonbreaks are only mentioned in lore and don't affect gameplay.)

bmnoble

Isn't it basically the same plot hole as Indiana Jones and the raiders of the lost arc? Even if Indy did nothing the Germans would have found the arc and been killed by it.

Even if the player and Tharn had done nothing Euraxia's forces would have released the Dragons, been unable to control them and die either to the Dragons or when we showed up to clean up the mess.

I blame the Khajiit for not putting better labels on there Dragon box, I mean come on "Demon Weapon" that's false advertising, nothing to do with Dragons, if we knew what was in the box we never would have opened it. Or you know they could have thrown the key stones into the ocean or something.