Eso... the proc plague.

ResidentContrarian

You'd have a point with proc sets being a "plague" if classes were balanced, right now classes aren't balanced in the slightest, and even after PTS changes they still won't be.

Then add in that neither races nor even no-proc gear options are balanced, then you have a situation where the game is only great in a no-proc environment for less than half of the specs, and complete garbage for others.

I might be of the minority opinion that no-proc actually has worse balance than proc PvP.

At least in proc PvP you were still able to supplement classes weak points with the only problem being about 12 proc sets in the game that offered too much damage, two mythics that offered too much in one piece that compounded the problem, and then the class imbalance itself being more or less prominent depending on a person's subjective veiwpoint.

In no proc right now, certain classes - Necro, Warden, Sorc, stam NB - have the absolute advantage over players that aren't playing them because of how ZOS is balancing the overall game. Every PvE-centric nerf is worsening PvP balance between classes and putting the classes currently ahead even further ahead.

A little off-topic, but I've said it before, but when balance in PvP is bad, players will simply stop playing PvP.

We see that BGs, despite being noCP, are still empty because the game is titled towards highCP players with arena weapons or "upper DLC" dungeons that isn't accessible to the masses.

In no-proc Cyro, we also see a similar response to the poor balance between classes and combinations: players simply don't log in during off-peak times and/or ball up and faction stack when peak times occur.

In both scenarios, behavior is a response to the bad balance in the game, which isn't balanced proc or not.

jaws343

Larcomar wrote: »

Mr_Gallows wrote: »

Free damage... why wouldn't you want it? It sells really well and the kids love it.Procs make a decent game garbage.

I love how, if people put on sets that boost their weapon damage by x bazillion so they can spam d-swing's all day long for 12k, it's "skill" and they're pvp gods.

But if someone else puts on a set that procs a dot effect so their d-swings only do 8k, but has say a 1400 per sec dot attached that any half decent player will purge, it's "free damage" and they're no skill loser.

Way I look at it, unless you're playing naked, you're getting free damage too. You just prefer your free damage to come in a different form. That's a perfectly valid choice, but hardly justifies denigrating people who prefer to build another way.

It's certainly true to say that *some* proc sets were overtuned in the past, but I think that list is way smaller than people make out. I wish people would stop claiming anything that kills them is OP and calling for nerfs.

I get it's frustrating get killed by other players, but, well, it's pvp... If you don't want to die, don't do it.

Personally, I'd rather have the variety than be limited to 19 sets. While some classes, eg magsorc work well stacking raw stats, and others eg warden do ok stacking wpn damage, classes like say dk work better with proc dmg than stat builds.

The difference is, if a player is running a set stacking weapon damage and spamming Dswing, they are doing two things: expending resources every time they cast Dswing and only doing damage with Dswing after the global cooldown.

A player running procs is gaining damage procs on top of the damage they are already doing, often stacking multiple procs into 1 resource cost. And they are also doing that damage outside of the global cooldown.

A player stacking weapon damage, in 5 seconds, is hitting with 5 dswings.
A player stacking procs in 5 seconds is hitting with 5 dswings, and at least 3 procs, and depending on the proc cooldowns, even more.

Larcomar

[/quote]
A player stacking weapon damage, in 5 seconds, is hitting with 5 dswings.
A player stacking procs in 5 seconds is hitting with 5 dswings, and at least 3 procs, and depending on the proc cooldowns, even more.[/quote]

A player stacking weapon damage is hitting with 5 dswings which are loaded with 'free damage' and are going to hit way harder than the player stacking procs.

Sure, the proc player's hitting with 5 dswings plus a couple of procs - but their d-swings are going to hit for way less. Will the proc damage outweigh the free damage from the stacking wpn sets? Maybe, *if* they run full duration. But ofc their opponent may purge.

It's ultimately a choice - higher burst, or lower burst and tail end dot damage that might get purged. But it's all 'free damage'. Like I say, unless you're playing naked, everyone's loading up on something....

jaws343

Larcomar wrote: »

Sure, the proc player's hitting with 5 dswings plus a couple of procs - but their d-swings are going to hit for way less. Will the proc damage outweigh the free damage from the stacking wpn sets? Maybe, *if* they run full duration. But ofc their opponent may purge.

It's ultimately a choice - higher burst, or lower burst and tail end dot damage that might get purged. But it's all 'free damage'. Like I say, unless you're playing naked, everyone's loading up on something....

Yes, they will purge Red Mountain and Caluurians. Or any other burst proc. Proc damage is not all DOT damage.

Even counting DOT procs, only two classes have access to reliable purges. Purge is an awful skill to combat DOT procs because of it's high cost to cast. Compared to the low cost to reapply the proc, it isn't even equitable. You expend more resources removing 3 proc DOTs than the player spent putting them on you. It's absurd.

Larcomar

You can debate purge - I mean, the 3 classes that have it are prob way more than half the toons in cyro and efficient purge isn't bad for the rest. Sure, it costs but you've then neutered the guy's build because almost all dot procs have a reapply timer. Venomous smite for eg - he's done for fifteen seconds. But theres plenty of posts on purge and that's not really the point.

All I'm saying is simply that, while some people build one way, and others build another way, they're all loading up on free damage at the end of the day. Quite why the stat set people think that makes them uber pvp'rs while the people wearing procs are "kids" running "auto-pilot builds", "a festering plague" destroying the game is beyond me. It's just silly.

But hey, it's the pvp forums. Everybody want's their build buffed and everyone else's nerfed. Because, obviously, they're super skillful so if they lost a fight, it must be because x y z is OP and the game's unfair....

blktauna

gariondavey wrote: »

Ravenwatch no cp on pc na is pop locked almost every night during weeknight and definitely on weekends

LOL because no one is in the CP campaign. I don't like getting mauled by cp 1,000,000 sweaties.

Personally I'm not a fan of this no proc experiment. All it does is show how OP streak is and the lag from everyone crushing in and lightening everything up is making the experience frustrating.

oh and Sing it Larcomar. Sing it!

heng14rwb17_ESO

PROC FOR WIN !
HOW CAN PEOPLE THINK THAT ZOS WILL BALANCE THEM !

regime211

Mr_Gallows wrote: »

The game just plays better without procs. But the company has made procs, they make money from procs and do not want to fix the game, because really... it does not matter to them what plays best.

That is clear from the way they have handled the game and the completely silly things they have put into the game.

Free damage... why wouldn't you want it? It sells really well and the kids love it.

Procs make a decent game garbage.

Oh and this thread is most likely offensive... because it does not support the story that procs are ok.

Procs are not ok. They are a festering plague, eating away at the gameplay of eso.

Just can't go back to having to run those BS auto pilot builds. So dumb that they do not just balance PvP and PvE seperately and let proc sets be a PvE thing.

Edit: just saw in another thread that no proc cyrodiil may stay as a seperate campaign. If that is true it is great.

Procs aren't eating away at gameplay, to be honest I have seen a decline in population on PC NA due to procs not being enabled, and on top of that performance is still highly poor. I get it people HATE being hit by multiple procs at the same time and end up dieing from it, but to be fair the game is just out right boring without them, and if they decided to only allow procs in pve, then they would need to consider buffing every single class in the game "Equally" to make up for the small amount of sets this test currently has allowed us to use.

DrSlaughtr

Replaced the plague of procs with the plague of full groups of wardens or necros that can rampage across the map.

I am very concerned however at how CP2.0 will work with procs because CP2.0 is helping a couple op classes steam over others. So will procs just make this worse? Because it's not like wardens won't also throw on a sustain or damage set.

ealdwin

regime211 wrote: »

...if they decided to only allow procs in pve, then they would need to consider buffing every single class in the game "Equally" to make up for the small amount of sets this test currently has allowed us to use.

Look, if banning proc sets in PVE finally brought about buffs to classes or even the fabled "class rework" we've been hearing about for who knows how long, then by all means ban the proc out of those proc sets!

Strider__Roshin

PigofSteel wrote: »

I hope there is no proc campaign.

That would be the best thing for PvP honestly.

ClawOfTheTwoMoons

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

PigofSteel wrote: »

I hope there is no proc campaign.

That would be the best thing for PvP honestly.

There will be In update 31. As well as ic and bgs

Strider__Roshin

ClawOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

PigofSteel wrote: »

I hope there is no proc campaign.

That would be the best thing for PvP honestly.

There will be In update 31. As well as ic and bgs

Will there be a TDM queue for BGs? Are they doing anything for IC to increases incentives to be there?

StShoot

my bigges problem with noproccyro was that they took out sets like lich, CA seducer co.
Sets that were never part of the ******* proc meta.
I wanted to try an pot setup after arkasis was released but i never could test it because of the over powered dmg proc sets. And i couldnt test it during the noprocmeta due to you know not allowing proc sets

Wolfpaw

After playing no-proc Cyrodiil, no bg's in months, no sewers in months, I went to sewers yesterday...I was quickly reminded how much proc sets dumb down ESO's great combat system.

ZOS should add a system to quickly disable overperforming sets in PvP til balanced.

DrSlaughtr

Yeah so when they turned off procs I was initially mad because I was so used to the resource restore my set gave, plus wild hunt.

But by 2 weeks in I had figured out what to wear to fit my play style and, more importantly, how to counter the classes that are over performing with CP 2.0.

Every time I go into a BG now I'm reminded just how dumb some of those sets are. I'm really not looking forward to their return, even nerfed, and and especially when combined with CP 2.0.

ThePianist

“Free” Damage proc sets like Venomous smite was half the problem, the other half are what 1vx’ers used to 1vx people.

The previous heavy armor meta was Eternal vigor, Balorgh and Clever alchemist. Kite around on my stamden, make them commit their ults then I would line up shalks+dizzy+dawnbreaker+execute spam.

Stamsorc, Crystal weapon+ heavy attack+ vateshran proc+ dawnbreaker+ Execute spam.

That type of sweaty gameplay by kiting around and lining up burst combos got pretty stale to me. This was why I prefered playing a NB sniper, spam snipe and watch venomous smite proc do the work. That type of “free damage” got a lot of 1vxer’s pissed. But on a serious note, the definition of free damage is dawnbreaker. You even have magsorcs and magdens that use it, the best notorious ultimate in the game.

The no proc Cyro in my opinion is far worse than when proc sets were live. You had an increase in base damage, lowered crit resistance, new cp system, where’s the balance? 85% of Ps4 NA grayhost population in prime time are wardens. Plus, how many bugs and lag have we gotten since no proc Cyro? They won’t admit it, but proc sets wasn’t the cause of all this lag.

If ZOS really wanted to nerf the heavy armor meta in PVP, a 3% reduction to overall damage for every piece of heavy armor worn, would have done the job. If they had it done this way, PVE tanks would have been happy. I main a pve tank, we don’t care about our overrall damage, instead we got an increased cost to roll dodge.

Heimdarm

Gilvoth wrote: »

the same thing is being said about animation canceling.
proc sets do almost nothing in my opinion, other than adding a variety of choices in builds.

This.

I had 'normal' dps builds for pvp and proc set builds for pvp as well. I like both. I like proc sets better because usually they fit better for my playstyle.

[snip] Because sometimes you just die whatever sets you are wearing. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Goregrinder

Gilvoth wrote: »

the same thing is being said about animation canceling.
proc sets do almost nothing in my opinion, other than adding a variety of choices in builds.

The difference is that with animation canceling, the player still has to manually do it every time. Manually. That means doing this well becomes a skill, and players who develop this skill get rewarded for it.

Procs on the other hand (not all of them), don't reward player's for developing a skill....skill is almost not even required, since the player doesn't have to manually activate their procs....the game automatically does it for them. So not much skill there.

blktauna

The skill is in the choosing... Finding the right complimentary sets that fill in the gaps for what you want to accomplish, and if you choose one with complex requirements to proc, keeping those up, keeping up all the stacks for half of them... Not everything is deaths wind that auto blows.

I us a lot of poisons so I choose sets to enhance my poison damage. Some folks reflect damage, some go straight stat improvement.

Not everyone is into sweaty face to face melee. Nor should they be.

exeeter702

Goregrinder wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

the same thing is being said about animation canceling.
proc sets do almost nothing in my opinion, other than adding a variety of choices in builds.

The difference is that with animation canceling, the player still has to manually do it every time. Manually. That means doing this well becomes a skill, and players who develop this skill get rewarded for it.

Procs on the other hand (not all of them), don't reward player's for developing a skill....skill is almost not even required, since the player doesn't have to manually activate their procs....the game automatically does it for them. So not much skill there.

Sorry but this is incredibly disingenuous.

You are either getting "free" damage added to the base tooltip of your skills when you use an ability, or you are getting "free" damage as a separate, visually telegraphed entity when you use an ability.

The better player will always win, since you are still required to interact with your class and use your abilities effectively regardless of where the 5pc setbonus damage is coming from.

Get X damage every 5 seconds or get Y damage every GCD. All that is happening is the proc sets (X damage) is migrating the bonus damage from 5 GCDs into a telegraphed attack. Burst damage is attractive in pvp for obvious reasons, but it's hardly a crutch. It's people convincing themselves that it is via some sort of cognitive dissonance.

Proc sets are an issue when they are unreactable and have overly generous tooltip based on 5pc power budgets and scaling rules, which is the legitimate criticism. Not that they "do the work" for anyone. If player A is using a proc set and is missing every other GCD for their primary damage dealing ability and plays poorly, isnt able to weave effectively etc and is going against a regular competent player who is using a flat base damage boosting 5pc set, who is not missing their GCDs and is connecting each of their spammables and light attack weaving, the proc set damage is absolutely NOT going to out pressure player B. Thei issue with proc sets is not a mechanical one.