Bring back 24man groups, yea or nay?

neferpitou73

neferpitou73

Yes, bring back 24man groups

I'd personally like if ZOS reverted the changes on group size. I noticed a sizeable decline in participation in my PVP guild when the change was made. I prefer the 24man setup because you get more epic battles and you have more room in the group for "useless" builds. It also makes it easier to introduce newer players to pvp since you have room in your group to pick up the inexperienced players and show them the ropes and "hide" their inexperience among the better players.

On the other hand, larger group sizes will likely make organized groups a bit stronger. Although I'd argue it won't matter terrible much since most of the good guilds run 2 optimized groups that coordinate.

What say the rest of you?

BardInSolitude

Yes, bring back 24man groups

I mean, they brought back cross-healing, so why are groups still limited to 12? It's been shown time and again that group healing and buffing has a minimal impact on the server, so why don't we just make the cap something much larger, like 50? People already zerg, at least this would promote interplay between people rather than... Brownian motion.

Greasytengu

Yes, bring back 24man groups

24 man groups were very newbie and pug friendly.

There has been a constant shortage of people willing to lead pugs even before the group size changes. When they shifted to 12 mans they basically cut the amount of possible grouped pugs down by half.

Personally I think this has lead to more map stagnancy and accidental zerging as the now groupless and directionless pugs will simply flock to whatever is called out in zone chat, rather than striking out to enemy backlines or unflagged keeps.

Sandman929

Yes, bring back 24man groups

Without group restricted healing, the 12 person cap doesn't serve a purpose. It's just artificially and pointlessly limiting the games social experience.

CSose

Yes, bring back 24man groups

They are lowering group sizes because it reduces server load. (cross healing, purging etc. overloads the servers they are using)

BardInSolitude

Yes, bring back 24man groups

CSose wrote: »

They are lowering group sizes because it reduces server load. (cross healing, purging etc. overloads the servers they are using)

But it doesn't, at least not according to what the devs themselves posted a while back. Cross healing changed literally nothing and that's why they brought it back.

Vaoh

Yes, bring back 24man groups

PvP is where there are concerns/debates about this stuff. I think it will be fine either way.

However in PvE it doesn’t matter if the group cap is 12, 24, 48, etc. The more the better imo. PvE should never have been affected.

Jaimeh

Yes, bring back 24man groups

Hell to the yea, bring them back, it's a bad change (for pve, at least)

neferpitou73

Yes, bring back 24man groups

I should specify I mean in pvp (which is why I posted it in the alliance war forum). There's absolutely no reason to do this in pve.

Jaraal

Yes, bring back 24man groups

It was so much more fun and inclusive when there were 24 man groups. I learned so much as a new to Cyrodiil player just by following and watching what my group did. And I wasn't a liability, because I wasn't required to contribute as much as the seasoned players out of the gate.

With the smaller groups, PUG leaders are less likely to pick up unknowns as there is less margin for error. And the limited communication between smaller groups trying to accomplish the same objective can be much more problematic.

Grimlok_S

No, I like 12man groups

While we're at it, let's remove cross healing.

There is currently no difference between a two 12-man groups and a single 24 with cross healing in place. Other than the ability for their addons to communicate.

Faction stacking is far too effective in this no-proc campaign without Vicious Death to deter people from balling up.

Earthewen

Yes, bring back 24man groups

I answered "yes" on this, but let me explain why. I must admit that I enjoy teaching new players how to survive in PvP. It is a lot different than the pve in this game, and I remember thinking, "I gotta find myself a guild!" after just one day in Cyro. The problem with just 12 players per group is that it is much harder to bring new-to-cyro players into the group. Where 24 people could carry a few newbies, too many newbs and your team is dead. As a result of this, many people end up leaving PvP because it's demoralizing to die every 2 seconds when you step outside a keep, or they just try survive solo.

Also, a 12-man group can't break up the huge faction stacks we are seeing out on the map alone. However, a 24-man raid could, with a lot of smart playing, give those faction stack zergs a run for their money, all while carrying a few new players in their ranks. If anything, going down to just 12 players in a group hasn't stopped faction stacks, zergs, or ball groups. It just penalized the new and solo players even more.

These opinions are my own and don't necessarily represent ZOS, other players, or anyone else, so don't jump on me for having my opinion.

Indigogo

Yes, bring back 24man groups

Definitely. Crowns willing to take on lfgs need to have that ability with spare spots that 12 doesn't allow.
Y'all have the patience of saints.
Last time I picked up a lfg, I was trying to hold the breach of a keep on my tank but they started pushing flags.
Ol mate stood in the middle of the rush on his squishy dd, and set an oil on the floor to try and burn the enemy as they ran in.

Dear. God.

I did not react well. People like him need large groups to learn in, where mistakes aren't so costly.

Kwoung

Yes, bring back 24man groups

Earthewen wrote: »

I answered "yes" on this, but let me explain why. I must admit that I enjoy teaching new players how to survive in PvP. It is a lot different than the pve in this game, and I remember thinking, "I gotta find myself a guild!" after just one day in Cyro. The problem with just 12 players per group is that it is much harder to bring new-to-cyro players into the group. Where 24 people could carry a few newbies, too many newbs and your team is dead. As a result of this, many people end up leaving PvP because it's demoralizing to die every 2 seconds when you step outside a keep, or they just try survive solo.

Also, a 12-man group can't break up the huge faction stacks we are seeing out on the map alone. However, a 24-man raid could, with a lot of smart playing, give those faction stack zergs a run for their money, all while carrying a few new players in their ranks. If anything, going down to just 12 players in a group hasn't stopped faction stacks, zergs, or ball groups. It just penalized the new and solo players even more.

These opinions are my own and don't necessarily represent ZOS, other players, or anyone else, so don't jump on me for having my opinion.

Agree 1000%.

Larcomar

Yes, bring back 24man groups

Used to pvp alot. Now, not so much. I used to be able to log in after lunch (pc EU), get a group instantly and spend the afternoon playing. When they dropped groups to 12, it just killed the pug scene. Indeed, most of the time it feels like there's less and less going on in the afternoon now. It's not really worth logging in before 4-5pm. Alot of that is the proc set changes sure, but the decline of cyro started with the group size change.

More specifically, 12 man groups don't halve the number of spots available as some have said. They cut them massively. Most of the pugs I'd be in would have half a dozen, maybe even 8 or 9 people from the same guild who'd rotate the leadership and be the core, and then sort of fill out the other spots with pick ups. When they dropped the group cap to 12, you suddenly found you weren't competing for one of say fifteen + spots in a group. You were competing for one of maybe 4.

Jaraal

Yes, bring back 24man groups

CSose wrote: »

They are lowering group sizes because it reduces server load. (cross healing, purging etc. overloads the servers they are using)

Not true. The only reason they went to 12 person groups was because they "liked the behavioral changes." Same thing with the cross healing. Had nothing to do with performance.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7011952/#Comment_7011952

CSose

Yes, bring back 24man groups

Jaraal wrote: »

CSose wrote: »

They are lowering group sizes because it reduces server load. (cross healing, purging etc. overloads the servers they are using)

Not true. The only reason they went to 12 person groups was because they "liked the behavioral changes." Same thing with the cross healing. Had nothing to do with performance.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7011952/#Comment_7011952

And in their justification for implementing the reduced group size, they said it was to increase performance. You can look that up too. Reduced group size did not result in increased performance, but they stuck with it anyway, citing "behavioral changes".

RedMuse

Yes, bring back 24man groups

Because the change to 12 didn't achieve a single one of ZOS' intended goals, it didn't even succeed in changing the behavior of players as they said was their reason for keeping it there. Only thing that it could be said to have achieved was all but killing off pugs and casual groups, so less Cyrodiil action overall outside of guilds or already organized runs.

Jaraal

Yes, bring back 24man groups

RedMuse wrote: »

Only thing that it could be said to have achieved was all but killing off pugs and casual groups, so less Cyrodiil action overall outside of guilds or already organized runs.

Since they never explained exactly what "behavioral changes" they liked, it's entirely possible that what you say is exactly what they liked.

Less organization = less activity = less server load. It wasn't directly for performance reasons, as they said..... but just maybe the fallout of having less players and less interest in Cyrodiil overall because of the nerf is desirable behavior in their eyes.

The PC/NA Gray Host server is as low as I've ever seen it for overall attendance. Perhaps the indirect performance benefit of having less people logged in is a good way to buy time to figure out how to address the problems.... although performance is still as bad as it's ever been. Might be unmanageable with full groups of 24 playing had they not cut the population with the smaller group cap.

Jackey

Yes, bring back 24man groups

My guild is organising in guild voice chat instead of group chat now anyways.
If the guild need 24 players in one spot, it will get that.

I guess the problem is a 24 man ball group, but maybe it's time to make skills like rapid regeneration not stack in pvp.

MasterSpatula

Yes, bring back 24man groups

Yes. Unquestionably yes.

Madhatten512

All you zerglings do is faction stack anyway so what does it matter how many names are in the top left of the screen. There isn't a faction on PC NA including the one i play on that can do anything on the map without a 60 man hoard so what does it matter? Stop crying about everything. The game doesn't function with 200 people stacked on top of each other. The same people that come in here and scream about performance come in and scream about needing to be able to heal outside of group and group size being reverted. Its so comical at this point. They literally need to make cyrodiil and empty keep taking zone and just remove pvp because thats all anyone wants to do is attack doors and keep guards and avoid any kind of actual pvp.

Greasytengu

Yes, bring back 24man groups

Madhatten512 wrote: »

All you zerglings do is faction stack anyway so what does it matter how many names are in the top left of the screen. There isn't a faction on PC NA including the one i play on that can do anything on the map without a 60 man hoard so what does it matter? Stop crying about everything. The game doesn't function with 200 people stacked on top of each other. The same people that come in here and scream about performance come in and scream about needing to be able to heal outside of group and group size being reverted. Its so comical at this point. They literally need to make cyrodiil and empty keep taking zone and just remove pvp because thats all anyone wants to do is attack doors and keep guards and avoid any kind of actual pvp.

sir this is a Wendy's...

DTStormfox

No, I like 12man groups

No. 12-player group size is big enough.

Kordai

No, I like 12man groups

Yeah bring back the big ball groups, that's definitely what we need as procs come back.

kingsirdrmr

Yes, bring back 24man groups

Doesn't matter whether the ball group is down 12 or not. A good group will always roll over an uncoordinated mass of players. An even smaller group can get away with it under the right circumstances. No point in punishing players who just want to follow crowns, join pug or troll groups, events and quest carries, or siege in a slightly less aimless way.

Spearpoint

Yes, bring back 24man groups

PvP with 24-man groups was more than double the fun, imo, and I saw more epic fights then.
In 24-man groups, it didn't matter if some of the players was new/less skilled, compared to the current limitation. Not that the impact is critical, but I've found that if some of the players in a 12-man group is new/less skilled, that can actually make or break the success in some fights.

My point is just that it gets a tad more difficult for players that are new or less used to PvP to enjoy the whole "play the way you want" theme, as having 12-man groups instead of 24-man groups are somewhat raising the entry bar.

DrSlaughtr

No, I like 12man groups

I like not going against 24 man ball groups. Meanwhile my groups can run via party chat and coordinate attacks. Send 12 to one keep, 12 to the other.

While yes a ball group could do this, I've not seen it since the change.

ks888

No, I like 12man groups

The sweet spot for me is capping at 16. That allows for a nice compromise in between. Guilds can still play together, but it makes it more complicated if you're the type to want to run a 40 man.

IAmIcehouse

No, I like 12man groups

Mixed feelings. I liked the change originally, but also, what's the point of the reduced size with healing outside of group re-enabled?

At first I liked it, now I don't really care, because what's the difference?