Saxhleel Champion Nerfed means to not buy the dlc for me

MalEducado

i dont like companions... and this set make me to buy the dlc cause it will be good for my tanks...now , with that nerf, i have no reason to buy this dlc... enjoy the content

FantasticFreddie

[snip]
Warhorn would have always been used in the rotation anyways, because of the stat boost.
With a necro ulti, you will still get 16 seconds of major force. That is fair, and plenty.
Set got a common sense tweak, it is still good and strong on a support with an expensive ultimate.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Lab3360

jircris11 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

[snip]
Warhorn would have always been used in the rotation anyways, because of the stat boost.
With a necro ulti, you will still get 16 seconds of major force. That is fair, and plenty.
Set got a common sense tweak, it is still good and strong on a support with an expensive ultimate.

[Quoted post was removed]

Its not dramatic simply because he doesnt like the change or you disagree with him.
If he doesnt like like it, he can come the forum and express his views like anyone else without being callee dramatic and any other derogatory terms you can muster.

Emmagoldman

Lab3360 wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

[snip]
Warhorn would have always been used in the rotation anyways, because of the stat boost.
With a necro ulti, you will still get 16 seconds of major force. That is fair, and plenty.
Set got a common sense tweak, it is still good and strong on a support with an expensive ultimate.

[Quoted post was removed]

Its not dramatic simply because he doesnt like the change or you disagree with him.
If he doesnt like like it, he can come the forum and express his views like anyone else without being callee dramatic and any other derogatory terms you can muster.

[snip] A nerf to one set that is really that striking and impactful either in the scope of the game, expansion or life in general? Not at all. They are of course free to come to forums to post whatever they want. [snip] The second reply in which basically says, hey, things will be fine and the same rotation will go on pretty much is sufficient.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

FantasticFreddie

Lab3360 wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

[snip]
Warhorn would have always been used in the rotation anyways, because of the stat boost.
With a necro ulti, you will still get 16 seconds of major force. That is fair, and plenty.
Set got a common sense tweak, it is still good and strong on a support with an expensive ultimate.

[Quoted post was removed]

Its not dramatic simply because he doesnt like the change or you disagree with him.
If he doesnt like like it, he can come the forum and express his views like anyone else without being callee dramatic and any other derogatory terms you can muster.

[snip]
One set, with a fairly minor impact on gameplay, was the ONLY reason he was going to drop, what, $20 on a new chapter?
And now he isn't because the duration now scales with your ultimate cost? Necro ulti, the most likely one to be used in this context, will net you 16 seconds, a mere 5 second decrease from the original value. If you use a barrier it will be longer.
Current uptime in major force is only 10 seconds from warhorn.
Set should have always scaled from ulti cost imho, and was never going to replace warhorns anyways in the first place-- the stat boost from horn is just too good to give up.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

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MalEducado

Lab3360 wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

[snip]
Warhorn would have always been used in the rotation anyways, because of the stat boost.
With a necro ulti, you will still get 16 seconds of major force. That is fair, and plenty.
Set got a common sense tweak, it is still good and strong on a support with an expensive ultimate.

[Quoted post was removed]

Its not dramatic simply because he doesnt like the change or you disagree with him.
If he doesnt like like it, he can come the forum and express his views like anyone else without being callee dramatic and any other derogatory terms you can muster.

thx for your opinion... i have most of dlcs cause they give some stuff i like it, cause i dont like to play necros... i cant any reason to buy this dlc...if that cset change, i finaly will buy th dlc, cause it will be good for my tanks... thx for your words

WrathOfInnos

Tbh, I don’t really get the hype about this set to begin with. From a PVE perspective, the tank needs to be part of the Warhorn rotation (for the 10% max resource) with or without this set, so they are already giving 10s of Major Force. The set in 7.0.0 added another 11s to this. With Warhorn cast about once per minute that means Major Force uptime would increase by 11/60 = 18%. While active, Major Force adds about 6% DPS, so 18% x 6% = 1.1% group DPS. That’s really weak for a group buff set, far worse than Yolna, Alkosh, Olo, Zen, MK, PA, etc.

I was hearing talk of combining it with Jorvulds so that a horn would give 21 x 1.4 = 29.4s of Major Force. On paper this one is interesting because it makes the Force buff last almost the same duration as the 10% resource buff. In practice you still can’t have one tank solo horn every 30s though, it would need to be alternating every 60s, and putting both tanks in Saxleel + Jorv means losing several, more impactful, sets.

Additionally, if you look at the benefit of Saxleel alone as 1.1% group DPS from 11s of Maj Force, the contribution of another 5pc set (Jorv) only adds 8.4s of Maj Force, for 0.8% group DPS from a 5pc support set. That is pathetic.

The other theory I’ve heard is that you can have 2 healers alternate Warhorns every 30s to cover the 10% resources, and 2 Necro tanks with Saxleel timing Colossus when the Warhorn Major Force is down. In this case you would benefit from most of the set’s Major Force uptime (20s out of 21s), and therefore it could potentially add 6% x 20/60 = 2% group DPS. This is much better than the previous example, but still worse than every other support set, and it comes with a massive downside. Both tanks need to be Necromancers to be in the colossus rotation. This means no DK main tank for stagger, no Warden OT for brittle, no Sorc tank for Crystal Weapon, or Templar tank for Minor Sorcery. It limits the group composition, and arguably hurts group DPS more than the set is helping it.

All of the above scenarios are considering the 21s version of Saxleel, and it still was not worth using IMO. Now in 7.0.2 this Major Force duration was reduced from 21s to 16s (with Horn) or 15s (with Colossus). If it is being used with Horn, then the Major Force extension after the initial 10s is now 6s instead of 11s, which means each Saxleel set used adds only 0.6% group DPS. Adding Jorvuld’s to that does effectively double the set benefit now, with another 6s of Major Force or 0.6% group DPS, but again it’s not viable to consume 4 support sets with Saxleel + Jorvulds in trials for this marginal benefit.

Overall, I can’t say I’m too disappointed about this set change because I believe it was already dead on arrival. People just saw “high Major Force uptime” and got too excited week 1 of PTS, but when considering the opportunity costs it has never been a good option, and much less so now.

YandereGirlfriend

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Tbh, I don’t really get the hype about this set to begin with. From a PVE perspective, the tank needs to be part of the Warhorn rotation (for the 10% max resource) with or without this set, so they are already giving 10s of Major Force. The set in 7.0.0 added another 11s to this. With Warhorn cast about once per minute that means Major Force uptime would increase by 11/60 = 18%. While active, Major Force adds about 6% DPS, so 18% x 6% = 1.1% group DPS. That’s really weak for a group buff set, far worse than Yolna, Alkosh, Olo, Zen, MK, PA, etc.

I was hearing talk of combining it with Jorvulds so that a horn would give 21 x 1.4 = 29.4s of Major Force. On paper this one is interesting because it makes the Force buff last almost the same duration as the 10% resource buff. In practice you still can’t have one tank solo horn every 30s though, it would need to be alternating every 60s, and putting both tanks in Saxleel + Jorv means losing several, more impactful, sets.

Additionally, if you look at the benefit of Saxleel alone as 1.1% group DPS from 11s of Maj Force, the contribution of another 5pc set (Jorv) only adds 8.4s of Maj Force, for 0.8% group DPS from a 5pc support set. That is pathetic.

The other theory I’ve heard is that you can have 2 healers alternate Warhorns every 30s to cover the 10% resources, and 2 Necro tanks with Saxleel timing Colossus when the Warhorn Major Force is down. In this case you would benefit from most of the set’s Major Force uptime (20s out of 21s), and therefore it could potentially add 6% x 20/60 = 2% group DPS. This is much better than the previous example, but still worse than every other support set, and it comes with a massive downside. Both tanks need to be Necromancers to be in the colossus rotation. This means no DK main tank for stagger, no Warden OT for brittle, no Sorc tank for Crystal Weapon, or Templar tank for Minor Sorcery. It limits the group composition, and arguably hurts group DPS more than the set is helping it.

All of the above scenarios are considering the 21s version of Saxleel, and it still was not worth using IMO. Now in 7.0.2 this Major Force duration was reduced from 21s to 16s (with Horn) or 15s (with Colossus). If it is being used with Horn, then the Major Force extension after the initial 10s is now 6s instead of 11s, which means each Saxleel set used adds only 0.6% group DPS. Adding Jorvuld’s to that does effectively double the set benefit now, with another 6s of Major Force or 0.6% group DPS, but again it’s not viable to consume 4 support sets with Saxleel + Jorvulds in trials for this marginal benefit.

Overall, I can’t say I’m too disappointed about this set change because I believe it was already dead on arrival. People just saw “high Major Force uptime” and got too excited week 1 of PTS, but when considering the opportunity costs it has never been a good option, and much less so now.

I think that the explanation is far simpler than any of this - many tanks (and healers...) in ESO are simply tired of being perpetually chained to boring old War Horn and were looking forward to being able to use something different while still providing high Major Force uptime.

It may not have made sense from a score-pushing perspective but that interest group describes only a vanishingly small percentage of the overall ESO population, vastly outnumbered by the number of more casual 'social group' types of raiders for whom having fun is more important than competition.

I would say though that it's still actually possible to hit 100% uptime now that the set cooldown has been abolished but that's all that I'm going to say until the set is live because I'm not looking forward to seeing the set nerfed again.

Which does beg the question as it pertains to your post - if the set was truly such a minuscule contribution to group DPS... then why would ZOS feel compelled to nerf it? That's not challenging your math but rather it is addressed directly to the ZOS Combat Team.

That also said, the abolition of the cooldown is also potentially a buff in PvP depending upon how you were intending to use it in your raid.

FantasticFreddie

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Tbh, I don’t really get the hype about this set to begin with. From a PVE perspective, the tank needs to be part of the Warhorn rotation (for the 10% max resource) with or without this set, so they are already giving 10s of Major Force. The set in 7.0.0 added another 11s to this. With Warhorn cast about once per minute that means Major Force uptime would increase by 11/60 = 18%. While active, Major Force adds about 6% DPS, so 18% x 6% = 1.1% group DPS. That’s really weak for a group buff set, far worse than Yolna, Alkosh, Olo, Zen, MK, PA, etc.

I was hearing talk of combining it with Jorvulds so that a horn would give 21 x 1.4 = 29.4s of Major Force. On paper this one is interesting because it makes the Force buff last almost the same duration as the 10% resource buff. In practice you still can’t have one tank solo horn every 30s though, it would need to be alternating every 60s, and putting both tanks in Saxleel + Jorv means losing several, more impactful, sets.

Additionally, if you look at the benefit of Saxleel alone as 1.1% group DPS from 11s of Maj Force, the contribution of another 5pc set (Jorv) only adds 8.4s of Maj Force, for 0.8% group DPS from a 5pc support set. That is pathetic.

The other theory I’ve heard is that you can have 2 healers alternate Warhorns every 30s to cover the 10% resources, and 2 Necro tanks with Saxleel timing Colossus when the Warhorn Major Force is down. In this case you would benefit from most of the set’s Major Force uptime (20s out of 21s), and therefore it could potentially add 6% x 20/60 = 2% group DPS. This is much better than the previous example, but still worse than every other support set, and it comes with a massive downside. Both tanks need to be Necromancers to be in the colossus rotation. This means no DK main tank for stagger, no Warden OT for brittle, no Sorc tank for Crystal Weapon, or Templar tank for Minor Sorcery. It limits the group composition, and arguably hurts group DPS more than the set is helping it.

All of the above scenarios are considering the 21s version of Saxleel, and it still was not worth using IMO. Now in 7.0.2 this Major Force duration was reduced from 21s to 16s (with Horn) or 15s (with Colossus). If it is being used with Horn, then the Major Force extension after the initial 10s is now 6s instead of 11s, which means each Saxleel set used adds only 0.6% group DPS. Adding Jorvuld’s to that does effectively double the set benefit now, with another 6s of Major Force or 0.6% group DPS, but again it’s not viable to consume 4 support sets with Saxleel + Jorvulds in trials for this marginal benefit.

Overall, I can’t say I’m too disappointed about this set change because I believe it was already dead on arrival. People just saw “high Major Force uptime” and got too excited week 1 of PTS, but when considering the opportunity costs it has never been a good option, and much less so now.

I think that the explanation is far simpler than any of this - many tanks (and healers...) in ESO are simply tired of being perpetually chained to boring old War Horn and were looking forward to being able to use something different while still providing high Major Force uptime.

It may not have made sense from a score-pushing perspective but that interest group describes only a vanishingly small percentage of the overall ESO population, vastly outnumbered by the number of more casual 'social group' types of raiders for whom having fun is more important than competition.

I would say though that it's still actually possible to hit 100% uptime now that the set cooldown has been abolished but that's all that I'm going to say until the set is live because I'm not looking forward to seeing the set nerfed again.

Which does beg the question as it pertains to your post - if the set was truly such a minuscule contribution to group DPS... then why would ZOS feel compelled to nerf it? That's not challenging your math but rather it is addressed directly to the ZOS Combat Team.

That also said, the abolition of the cooldown is also potentially a buff in PvP depending upon how you were intending to use it in your raid.

I mean I was mostly planning to backbar it with SPC on my necro healer, as most groups aren't running sustain sets now.
Would let me colo on force cooldown and basically squeeze put a tiny bit more dps for the group.

WrathOfInnos

@YandereGirlfriend Yeah, that makes sense. Years of using the same sets and same abilities does start to get dull. Tanks have it pretty bad in this case. This is looking like Drake’s Rush all over again, a slightly underpowered, but interesting tank set that was nerfed to completely useless before it even went live. Arkasis met a similar fate after 3 months (although I can respect killing the prebuff meta), and Vrol’s set never got off the ground.

As for why it was nerfed, I suspect it’s because it sounds strong. I don’t know if it was a response to player reactions claiming it was overpowered, or if one of the devs had the same impression. I thought it looked strong the first time I saw it in the patch notes. Then I started trying to build a group around it, and realized all the complications and sacrifices required to reach that tempting 100% Major Force. Maybe the concept was flawed from the start, with the set’s Major Force running simultaneously with the Warhorn’s Maj Force, or the fact that it neglects the 10% max and stam so we’re still tied to Warhorn (and the other morph isn’t even useful so no interest ion options with decoupling Force from Agressive Horn).

Again, I’m only looking at this from a trial group perspective, but I’ll add one more interesting comparison. Hypothetically, if the set had been released with no conditions at all, just a simple “gives you and 11 allies Major Force at all times” that would still be a weaker support set than SPC, Alkosh, or Olorime. It’s just not that great of a buff on top of all the sources of crit damage these days. If you also assume that Warhorns are used every 30s for the resource buff, then this hypothetical set also falls behind Catalyst, Z’ens and Martial Knowledge.