Here we go again.

Wolfpaw

12.23.2020

Things were not always so rosy for the ESO dev team, though. We kept our aggressive development schedule that, in hindsight, might not have been the right strategy. A combination of the normal ESO content cycle, investigating/fixing long-standing issues, optimizations to improve performance on lower-power devices (also fewer blue-screen errors), and the lack of team (both dev and QA) cohesion brought on by work from home led to a poor experience in many cases for you. The short version is that we kept up our usual frenetic pace, but didn't allow for the realities of working remotely. Each of our four Update launches were marred by errors and problems of various types. Patches to fix those issues sometimes led to more problems. Obviously, this is unacceptable, and we will be addressing this as a team throughout 2021.

You already know that the 2021 story arc is called Gates of Oblivion, and I'll leave it up to our reveal show next month to go into the specifics—but I want to highlight that in 2021 we will devote more time overall to stability and game performance and less time to new game systems (with our standard content updates continuing unchanged). We will still be working from home for the foreseeable future, and I want to ensure that our 2021 updates and patches are smooth and the player experience is enjoyable. This is an ongoing process—and remember that we are usually working on updates six months or more before they launch, so when we started WFH in March, we were already working on Q3 and Q4 content, which led to the issues outlined above. We now have planned for the team working remotely for roughly the first half of 2021, so the "introduce fewer new systems" program will continue throughout 2021.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/59387

5.3.2021

Companion Performance Testing
Companions are a new, exciting feature coming with the Blackwood Chapter, but it’s also a huge system that touches many different parts of the game and has the potential to have performance implications on both the client and server. Improving in-game performance has been a huge focus for us and we’re starting to make significant progress towards our goal; progress that we don’t want to undo with Companions. We’ve been testing Companions a lot internally, but situations on the Live megaservers are a very different scenario and one that we can’t replicate perfectly. As such, we’ve built in a number of dials and knobs that will allow us to tweak the impact of Companions while we find the right balance.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/572676/pts-patch-notes-v7-0-2#latest

A new huge system that touches many different parts of the game, a month away, on a already very difficult performance year.

What has changed from the letter in Dec 2020 to now?

Goregrinder

All they said was that they will spend less time on new systems, not that they will spend zero time on new systems.

Wolfpaw

Goregrinder wrote: »

All they said was that they will spend less time on new systems, not that they will spend zero time on new systems.

So CP overhaul and Companions (looking to be one of the more complex system introduced to the game), 5months in the year. Less?

jaws343

They've been working on companions for over a year. So obviously this system was already in process when they put out that notice in December. The no new systems was probably more in regards to not developing anything new this year, which, as far as we know, they are not. By not developing anything new this year, they free up more time for fixes as they occur during the already scheduled releases.

dcam86b14_ESO

Goregrinder wrote: »

All they said was that they will spend less time on new systems, not that they will spend zero time on new systems.

^

jaws343

Also, important to note, things that they may put into development this year won't be seen until next year. So it is likely next year's patches, outside of new zones and story/dungeon/set content, will not include any additional system features if they aren't developing them this year.

SickleCider

jaws343 wrote: »

They've been working on companions for over a year. So obviously this system was already in process when they put out that notice in December. The no new systems was probably more in regards to not developing anything new this year, which, as far as we know, they are not. By not developing anything new this year, they free up more time for fixes as they occur during the already scheduled releases.

Yeah, you've got it.

Pinoh

Microsoft needs those sales to keep popping to get their $7.5 billion back. So they need to add features to make people buy the new expansion.

VaranisArano

My interpretation, so take it with a grain of salt and good humor: the Devs didn't internally playtest what happens when everyone running the Alikr Dolmen train has their Companion active.

On one level, I get it. How do you internally test stuff like:
- you wayshrine into Mournhold, two players are dueling on the wayshrine, someone's sprinting through the marketplace spamming heals, someone's running from a guard, and everyone who's crafting, shopping, and loitering has their Companion out.
- its the Pan-Elswyer Event, and tons of people in Northern and Southern Elsweyr attempt to converge on the same Dragon Hunt or daily quest WB, all of them with active Companions. Then consider that Companions stink at mechanics, so there's a lot of dead Companions.


On the other hand, I feel like these are extremely predictable situations where there would be peak demands on the server. And so if these are the sort of situations that ZOS is worried about, I think it speaks to a design failure. The Devs should have considered these recurring peak situations and designed Companions accordingly. They apparently did not, and now we have to test the possibility that Companions will be despawned in cities, greaterly curtailing their usefulness in city questing and roleplaying.

Question for players on the PTS: Are there quests in Leyawiin?
There are quests in Glenumbra, Vulkhel Guard, Davon's Watch, Vivec City, Alinor, Rimmen, and Solitude. All of which are major cities and, unsurprisingly, I'd like to have my Companion accompany me.

colossalvoids

Yeah reading notes admitting it's affects performance to the degree they're already thinking about some possible "solutions" just wrecks anything they've told before. Seems like almost none of constantly playing players want companions the way they are implemented rn and would prefer anything over it but we'll get this atrocity from single player games anyway to lure some more Skyrim fanboys as it's "more than just an mmo" lmao.

VaranisArano

colossalvoids wrote: »

Yeah reading notes admitting it's affects performance to the degree they're already thinking about some possible "solutions" just wrecks anything they've told before. Seems like almost none of constantly playing players want companions the way they are implemented rn and would prefer anything over it but we'll get this atrocity from single player games anyway to lure some more Skyrim fanboys as it's "more than just an mmo" lmao.

I wasn't too impressed with Skyrim companions, but I've had to reevaluate since Mirri and Bastian.

I mean, Lydia carried my burdens, knew how to move out of flaming oil, and could stand on pressure plates.

jaws343

VaranisArano wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Yeah reading notes admitting it's affects performance to the degree they're already thinking about some possible "solutions" just wrecks anything they've told before. Seems like almost none of constantly playing players want companions the way they are implemented rn and would prefer anything over it but we'll get this atrocity from single player games anyway to lure some more Skyrim fanboys as it's "more than just an mmo" lmao.

I wasn't too impressed with Skyrim companions, but I've had to reevaluate since Mirri and Bastian.

I mean, Lydia carried my burdens, knew how to move out of flaming oil, and could stand on pressure plates.

I miss running around with the immortal Serana. The only companion worth adventuring with and not risking permanent death.

Joy_Division

I don't see the issue here.

They have to introduce new content and it looks like they are at least trying to anticipate issues that will detract from performance, which is something they did not do in 2020.

Nastassiya

They are right that QA != Prod

I'm a DevOps engineer and a lot of what we move over from Dev/Test over to QA shows more errors, because the environment is much larger. We end up fixing many of the bugs but we find more when we move from QA to Prod, and then we try and replicate them again in QA. That is just how testing works. Prod will always be an unofficial test environment and that really can't be helped. You have real world data that flows in prod that you just can't replicate. Even if your QA database is very recent with prod data, you're not going to have the users doing these unique tasks and it would be too expensive to have systems in place to try and replicate the entire megaserver in QA. I really doubt ZOS even has a 1:1 cluster size for QA and Prod.

Mayrael

Meanwhile PC EU

rollingphoneseb17_ESO

Mayrael wrote: »

Meanwhile PC EU

NA works fine tho.

Seraphayel

Goregrinder wrote: »

All they said was that they will spend less time on new systems, not that they will spend zero time on new systems.

And you’re telling me that developing a new weapon or skill line is more work in the long run than constantly fixing and updating Companions which come with their own AI (artificial incompetence in regard of Companions), equipment, quests etc?

It’s all about cash. And with Companions and especially Companion customization in the Crown Store they can make tons of it. That’s the only reason why we get them, not because players wanted them.

Nastassiya

I've actually wanted followers for awhile now. I liked having them in EverQuest and I really enjoyed them in SWTOR. I didn't care for the Captains follower in LOTRO. So, I am looking forward to having one here, even if the DPS is trash.

Sergykid

stop dreaming about companions that they'll be like the Skyrim ones (in which not even there were good without mods). For the a thousandth time, this is not Skyrim 2.0. You won't be able to tell companions where to stay, what to focus, have commands for them, and so on. It's just like a floating stick that follows you around. Over time they may get more gimmicks but that will come in years, and the most you will get will be visual customization from the cl0wn $tore.

VaranisArano

Sergykid wrote: »

stop dreaming about companions that they'll be like the Skyrim ones (in which not even there were good without mods). For the a thousandth time, this is not Skyrim 2.0. You won't be able to tell companions where to stay, what to focus, have commands for them, and so on. It's just like a floating stick that follows you around. Over time they may get more gimmicks but that will come in years, and the most you will get will be visual customization from the cl0wn $tore.

"Over time they may get more gimmicks."

Well, why do you think we're telling the Devs NOW that their Companions are lacking in basic features, have poor combat AI, and should be improved if they want to make more of them or make them core elements of gameplay?

It's because we'd like improvements someday in the future. Bastian and Mirri probably aren't going to be the only Companions, so I really hope the Devs are taking notes.

The Devs don't take every suggestion on the forums, but we've seen enough positive changes happen after years - yes, years - of feedback that if we want better Companions, it is well worth asking for those features. Think about Multicraft, houseguest, and other features that's been added. Those didn't happen right away. They happened after years of player feedback.

Otherwise, we will be stuck with Companions who make the AI from a game that came out in 2011 look like geniuses. Maybe that's fine by you? Not that it really matters. I will continue to point out that somehow, ZOS managed to design Companions who're simultaneously more complicated, and less effective than Lydia the Housecarl.

ZOS can and should do better. It'll take time, but past experience shows that it can happen if players keep asking ZOS to do better. "Stop dreaming" is the opposite.


(On a side note, I'd like to point out that ZOS also managed to mess up Companions and performance concerns. Maybe I'm "dreaming" that ZOS should be able to competently put together a major feature of their Chapter. In any case, I'd like to reiterate my disappointment that ZOS has apparently failed to grapple proactively with the impact of Companions predictable peak demands and is now doing rounds of testing, where two of the three will limit Companion usefulness for the sake of performance. Obviously, it'd be bad if Companions wreck performance in big cities or approaching Harrowstorms, but it's also a design and marketing failure of a Chapter feature that's looking decidedly underbaked. I've already pre-ordered, and I'm still looking forward to questing with Mirri, but that's not going to stop me from pointing out that ZOS really seems to have missed the mark between what they talked about with Companions vs what we're seeing on the PTS.)

MasterSpatula

Man, you didn't even have to get to Update 30. Update 29 was all you needed to know they had no intention of living up to the spirit of this letter or applying any of the lessons they claim they learned.

Tigertron

The only thing the companions can kill is performance. Can’t wait.

colossalvoids

VaranisArano wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Yeah reading notes admitting it's affects performance to the degree they're already thinking about some possible "solutions" just wrecks anything they've told before. Seems like almost none of constantly playing players want companions the way they are implemented rn and would prefer anything over it but we'll get this atrocity from single player games anyway to lure some more Skyrim fanboys as it's "more than just an mmo" lmao.

I wasn't too impressed with Skyrim companions, but I've had to reevaluate since Mirri and Bastian.

I mean, Lydia carried my burdens, knew how to move out of flaming oil, and could stand on pressure plates.

I'd agree on that, I wasn't using companions in my sp playthroughs at all (using them as a stash can't count really) but now I appreciate that they had something up the sleeve instead of just being there building our relationships based on picked nodes or pockets.

Secretly hoped companions would also be able to stand on pressure plates but it's probably too advanced for a 2nd era ones.

oXI_Viper_IXo

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Improving in-game performance has been a huge focus for us and we’re starting to make significant progress towards our goal

Hmmm where have I heard something like that before? 🤔

⬇️ ⬇️ ⬇️

Mayrael

colossalvoids wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Yeah reading notes admitting it's affects performance to the degree they're already thinking about some possible "solutions" just wrecks anything they've told before. Seems like almost none of constantly playing players want companions the way they are implemented rn and would prefer anything over it but we'll get this atrocity from single player games anyway to lure some more Skyrim fanboys as it's "more than just an mmo" lmao.

I wasn't too impressed with Skyrim companions, but I've had to reevaluate since Mirri and Bastian.

I mean, Lydia carried my burdens, knew how to move out of flaming oil, and could stand on pressure plates.

I'd agree on that, I wasn't using companions in my sp playthroughs at all (using them as a stash can't count really) but now I appreciate that they had something up the sleeve instead of just being there building our relationships based on picked nodes or pockets.

Secretly hoped companions would also be able to stand on pressure plates but it's probably too advanced for a 2nd era ones.

Yeah... That was all I counted for, preasure plates and bashing channeled attacks on me. How stupid I was... Well, at least I don't have to buy new chapter.

colossalvoids

Mayrael wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Yeah reading notes admitting it's affects performance to the degree they're already thinking about some possible "solutions" just wrecks anything they've told before. Seems like almost none of constantly playing players want companions the way they are implemented rn and would prefer anything over it but we'll get this atrocity from single player games anyway to lure some more Skyrim fanboys as it's "more than just an mmo" lmao.

I wasn't too impressed with Skyrim companions, but I've had to reevaluate since Mirri and Bastian.

I mean, Lydia carried my burdens, knew how to move out of flaming oil, and could stand on pressure plates.

I'd agree on that, I wasn't using companions in my sp playthroughs at all (using them as a stash can't count really) but now I appreciate that they had something up the sleeve instead of just being there building our relationships based on picked nodes or pockets.

Secretly hoped companions would also be able to stand on pressure plates but it's probably too advanced for a 2nd era ones.

Yeah... That was all I counted for, preasure plates and bashing channeled attacks on me. How stupid I was... Well, at least I don't have to buy new chapter.

Oh, so they do not bash either... What a lovely addition to the game.

Jeremy

Nastassiya wrote: »

I've actually wanted followers for awhile now. I liked having them in EverQuest and I really enjoyed them in SWTOR. I didn't care for the Captains follower in LOTRO. So, I am looking forward to having one here, even if the DPS is trash.

From what I've seen of them so far, their damage isn't that bad. It's their survival that sucks. They are super squishy and can't even live through the random AoE damage that gets tossed around. Mine pretty much stayed a corpse anytime I tried to do anything that wasn't real easy. Their defense better get a lot (and I mean lot) better as they level up. Otherwise, players who were hoping to use them as alternatives to groups are going to be in for some serious disappointment.

zharkovian

I fail to see how adding companions, potentially doubling the amount of characters on my screen, will improve the game in any way at all. Just another pet to get in the way of a better game experience.

Hawco10

Good god. There will be a Tsunami of change, challenges and bugs incoming. Followed by a mega thread on workarounds and patch releases to fix hot items.
I’m Genuinely concerned about the next update. Add in the PS5 enhanced version and we have, what one could call-a potential perfect storm.

Thechuckage

Just sitting back and sipping on my "I told you companions weren't going to be anything good" juice.

Wolfpaw

Hawco10 wrote: »

Good god. There will be a Tsunami of change, challenges and bugs incoming. Followed by a mega thread on workarounds and patch releases to fix hot items.
I’m Genuinely concerned about the next update. Add in the PS5 enhanced version and we have, what one could call-a potential perfect storm.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WyF8RHM1OCg