What's wrong with Nightblade Healers?

Starlight_Whisper

Like what do they need improvements on?

Ippokrates

No.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Unless you have a stamina group that has no nb dd, nb healers don't have any unique group buffs.
So if you want to see more nb healers in pve, they need some more buffs or debuffs. In PvP I'd say they do fine, the healing ulti is quite powerful there.

NeillMcAttack

I really enjoy magblade healing but at endgame they just don’t offer enough. There raw healing power is very strong and their burst heal being somewhat free as long as you are standing in your HOTS means they can spec even more into raw healing power.
But they have zero actual utility that is expected from supports, no unique de-buffs or synergies. Magblades minor vulnerability forces you into melee range which will never compare to Magdens fletchers for example. Not to mention minor toughness being so incredibly powerful.
Then there are templars with such easy to maintain minor mending as it is tied to a huge AOE hot that also has a synergy to remove de-buffs.

What I would love to see for the magblade is a perhaps a change in one of their assassination skills, perhaps changing reapers mark to grant the major berserk to the person that get the killing blow on target, or even a number of individuals that damaged the target the most, with maybe a reduced cooldown for balance reasons. Or some synergy that won’t just granted by having a magblade dd in the group, so maybe something on refreshing path...

Sangwyne

I wouldn't necessarily say anything is wrong with them. NB healers have a wonky but perfectly functional burst heal that grants Minor Mending and costs no Magicka, allowing them to spam it more so than any other burst heal. Their healing ultimate is pretty solid, they have untyped bonuses to Healing done, an increase to Magicka and pretty decent sustain, especially considering the lack of Magicka cost on their main heal.

I'm not saying it couldn't be better, but if you wish to truly experience suffering, try to heal on DK. Our sustain is by far the worst of any class, our burst heal requires an enemy target, making it unreliable when that's exactly what you need a burst heal TO be, our only source of increased healing done directly clashes and cancels out the larger buff provided by a DK tank, we have no healing ultimate and our "healing tree" is positively garbage. Ash Cloud is the only other skill that can even heal than our crummy burst heal, and it costs an absurd amount of Magicka to heal in a tiny radius.

An updated toolkit for both these classes would be much appreciated.

the1andonlyskwex

The biggest problem I have is that NB's burst heal can't heal yourself, and there isn't a good non-class burst heal available to replace it. Every other class has a burst heal that can heal everyone in your group.

Aside from that, NBs have better group support than Sorcs, much better sustain than DKs, and the best HoTs in the game.

Note: Some people love Healthy Offering because it's heals for a lot, apparently doesn't have LoS constraints (which is good for PvP), gives minor mending, and is "free" (in a magicka sense), but my experience is that the inability to burst heal myself eventually gets me killed, and a dead healer is the worst healer.

YandereGirlfriend

As others have said, Nightblade Healer is excellent as far as overall healing output is concerned but it's light on group utility.

As such, it's better suited to PvP healing as its fantastic sustain lends itself toward Purge spamming and Soul Siphon is the BiS raw healing ultimate in the game and is the perfect counter to an enemy ult-dump.

It does have one interesting facet though that is relatively little-known and that is that Healthy and Shrewd Offering will both proc Pearls of Ehlnofey. So you can, if you're feeling adventurous, construct your build with a high Magicka pool (easy on a Nightblade) and high Magicka sustain (easy on a Nightblade) and then use Offering as a free filler GCD cast to allow you to operate consistently in that <30% resources domain. Funnel Health will also proc Pearls despite not being a traditional healing ability.

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

What I would love to see for the magblade is a perhaps a change in one of their assassination skills, perhaps changing reapers mark to grant the major berserk to the person that get the killing blow on target, or even a number of individuals that damaged the target the most, with maybe a reduced cooldown for balance reasons. Or some synergy that won’t just granted by having a magblade dd in the group, so maybe something on refreshing path...

Your last idea is, IMO, fantastic. Now that Major Berserk has been neutered it's time to more widely expand who has access to the buff.

Devising some mechanic for Reaper's Mark that granted Major Berserk to the X highest DPS over the duration Y of the ability (which does not grant the buff if re-cast early - this is to avoid obvious exploits) for duration Z seconds would prove to be a very compelling mechanic for any group.

A tank or DPS could slot that ability to steal away its uniqueness for the healer but some deeper thinking on the mechanic could surely counter that.

Athan1

What's wrong with Nightblade Healers?

They are Nightblade.

Starlight_Whisper

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Unless you have a stamina group that has no nb dd, nb healers don't have any unique group buffs.
So if you want to see more nb healers in pve, they need some more buffs or debuffs. In PvP I'd say they do fine, the healing ulti is quite powerful there.

What about penetration duff, major coward, minor vulnerability,

What do templar or warden have over them?

Starlight_Whisper

Sangwyne wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily say anything is wrong with them. NB healers have a wonky but perfectly functional burst heal that grants Minor Mending and costs no Magicka, allowing them to spam it more so than any other burst heal. Their healing ultimate is pretty solid, they have untyped bonuses to Healing done, an increase to Magicka and pretty decent sustain, especially considering the lack of Magicka cost on their main heal.

I'm not saying it couldn't be better, but if you wish to truly experience suffering, try to heal on DK. Our sustain is by far the worst of any class, our burst heal requires an enemy target, making it unreliable when that's exactly what you need a burst heal TO be, our only source of increased healing done directly clashes and cancels out the larger buff provided by a DK tank, we have no healing ultimate and our "healing tree" is positively garbage. Ash Cloud is the only other skill that can even heal than our crummy burst heal, and it costs an absurd amount of Magicka to heal in a tiny radius.

An updated toolkit for both these classes would be much appreciated.

Is it the wonky part that turns them off?

YandereGirlfriend

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Unless you have a stamina group that has no nb dd, nb healers don't have any unique group buffs.
So if you want to see more nb healers in pve, they need some more buffs or debuffs. In PvP I'd say they do fine, the healing ulti is quite powerful there.

What about penetration duff, major coward, minor vulnerability,

What do templar or warden have over them?

You'd have to already be in an un-optimized group for those buffs to be unique.

Minor Breach is supplied with Puncture, the staple tank taunt. Minor Vulnerability is supplied by a Warden Healer through Fetcher Flies. And Minor Cowardice just isn't that important overall as a group survival buff, especially with everyone's pumped up health bars these days.

My favorite thing to cast in PvE as a Nightblade Healer is actually Debilitate since it provides Minor Magickasteal while also doing some damage. It's nice to at least be able to cast that and skip having to use a universal Destro/Resto skill for it like most other classes. Of course, that buff is also now significantly easier to come by simply as a function of magDPS doing damage now though since it's tied to the Overcharged status effect.

Personally, I liked an earlier idea of providing Major Berserk to allies. That would be a buff worth slotting a Nightblade Healer for. The only quirk would be ensuring that it's the healer who provides the buff and not a tank or another magBlade DPS.

Myconos

Basically, nightblades have healing power but are otherwise limited in their ability to provide meaningful boosts to group sustain or DPS, and are also somewhat low on bar space. Minor savagery is the only unique buff they bring, and requires them to slot an assassination ability, none of which are that useful for a healer. Debilitate provides minor magicka steal, but that has a high uptime if anyone is doing magic damage anyways and is available to any other healer with resto/destro skills. Minor vulnerability is tied to an ability that has a hidden cast time, requires you to go into melee, and is anyways procced from lightning damage. The sundered status effect anyways comes from physical damage, and it is tied to a melee stamina skill which is not great for a healer to be using. Minor cowardice is defensive ability only and tied to a stamina skill, and requires a nightblade healer to give up using an actual healing skill. Otherwise, the synergies nightblades have are tied to ultimates that are defensive in nature. One of those ultimates has a cast time, so it can get messed up if you time it wrong when also needing to block or dodge incoming damage, and the other was balanced around major protection being 3 times stronger. Other classes can provide harder to source buffs like minor intellect/endurance, major vulnerability, flame damage boosts or empower to allies that aids with group DPS and sustain. Other classes also have synergies on non-ultimate skills so that they can provide major force through warhorn while also providing synergies beyond altar and orbs.

Nightblades suffer from having very limited support skills beyond healing, needing a burst heal for themselves in addition to offering for other people, and most of the buffs in their kit are thing easily supplied by anyone else, people doing common status effects, and/or tied to skills that aren't otherwise at all useful for a healer.

exeeter702

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The biggest problem I have is that NB's burst heal can't heal yourself, and there isn't a good non-class burst heal available to replace it. Every other class has a burst heal that can heal everyone in your group.

Aside from that, NBs have better group support than Sorcs, much better sustain than DKs, and the best HoTs in the game.

Note: Some people love Healthy Offering because it's heals for a lot, apparently doesn't have LoS constraints (which is good for PvP), gives minor mending, and is "free" (in a magicka sense), but my experience is that the inability to burst heal myself eventually gets me killed, and a dead healer is the worst healer.

Killing yourself with offering is a user issue to be honest, unless you are getting hit in pve by massive one shot mechanics, the raw hot throughput and healing done passives that magblade has will keep you stabilized.

In pvp, it's a different story, but if offering would self target like matriarch, bol etc, it would be the most busted self heal in the entire game by a country mile.

In pvp, Magblade healers would be able to spam themsleves with 15k+ crit heals every GCD for infinity. That would make them near immortal unless piled on, and that is on a basic standard balanced pvp build. I suppose you could implement a mechanic where if it heals the caster, it takes magicka instead, but as I've said many times before, the solution to magblade self healing is not a one button panicked burst heal. That is not what they need.

exeeter702

Athan1 wrote: »

What's wrong with Nightblade Healers?

They are Nightblade.

Nbs have been healing since beta.

the1andonlyskwex

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The biggest problem I have is that NB's burst heal can't heal yourself, and there isn't a good non-class burst heal available to replace it. Every other class has a burst heal that can heal everyone in your group.

Aside from that, NBs have better group support than Sorcs, much better sustain than DKs, and the best HoTs in the game.

Note: Some people love Healthy Offering because it's heals for a lot, apparently doesn't have LoS constraints (which is good for PvP), gives minor mending, and is "free" (in a magicka sense), but my experience is that the inability to burst heal myself eventually gets me killed, and a dead healer is the worst healer.

Killing yourself with offering is a user issue to be honest, unless you are getting hit in pve by massive one shot mechanics, the raw hot throughput and healing done passives that magblade has will keep you stabilized.

In pvp, it's a different story, but if offering would self target like matriarch, bol etc, it would be the most busted self heal in the entire game by a country mile.

In pvp, Magblade healers would be able to spam themsleves with 15k+ crit heals every GCD for infinity. That would make them near immortal unless piled on, and that is on a basic standard balanced pvp build. I suppose you could implement a mechanic where if it heals the caster, it takes magicka instead, but as I've said many times before, the solution to magblade self healing is not a one button panicked burst heal. That is not what they need.

I'm not killing myself with Offering. I'm taking a hit that does 90% of my health in damage and then dying to a smaller hit because I can't heal myself back up to full fast enough. This sort of stuff may not happen in highly organized trials groups, but it happens all the time in vet PuGs.

I'm also not asking for Offering to be straight up changed to include a self heal. I agree that it would be ridiculous to have the ability to spend 2k health over time to instantly heal 10k health. What I would like is for Shrewd Offering (not Healthy Offering) to be changed to something with a magicka cost that can heal anybody in my group (including myself).

exeeter702

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The biggest problem I have is that NB's burst heal can't heal yourself, and there isn't a good non-class burst heal available to replace it. Every other class has a burst heal that can heal everyone in your group.

Aside from that, NBs have better group support than Sorcs, much better sustain than DKs, and the best HoTs in the game.

Note: Some people love Healthy Offering because it's heals for a lot, apparently doesn't have LoS constraints (which is good for PvP), gives minor mending, and is "free" (in a magicka sense), but my experience is that the inability to burst heal myself eventually gets me killed, and a dead healer is the worst healer.

Killing yourself with offering is a user issue to be honest, unless you are getting hit in pve by massive one shot mechanics, the raw hot throughput and healing done passives that magblade has will keep you stabilized.

In pvp, it's a different story, but if offering would self target like matriarch, bol etc, it would be the most busted self heal in the entire game by a country mile.

In pvp, Magblade healers would be able to spam themsleves with 15k+ crit heals every GCD for infinity. That would make them near immortal unless piled on, and that is on a basic standard balanced pvp build. I suppose you could implement a mechanic where if it heals the caster, it takes magicka instead, but as I've said many times before, the solution to magblade self healing is not a one button panicked burst heal. That is not what they need.

I'm not killing myself with Offering. I'm taking a hit that does 90% of my health in damage and then dying to a smaller hit because I can't heal myself back up to full fast enough. This sort of stuff may not happen in highly organized trials groups, but it happens all the time in vet PuGs.

I'm also not asking for Offering to be straight up changed to include a self heal. I agree that it would be ridiculous to have the ability to spend 2k health over time to instantly heal 10k health. What I would like is for Shrewd Offering (not Healthy Offering) to be changed to something with a magicka cost that can heal anybody in my group (including myself).

Even at 7 stacks of offering, if you are playing right you are generating a net positive amount of HPS to completely negate the dot damage. In extremely rare situations you maybe die because your life dips that low but that is hardly common. And even then, more importantly, if you are in a position as a nb healer where you are needing to dump offerings out to the point where you are taking max stacks, something has gone wrong beyond encounter mechanics.

The risk vs reward of malevolent offering only really exists in pvp.

the1andonlyskwex

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The biggest problem I have is that NB's burst heal can't heal yourself, and there isn't a good non-class burst heal available to replace it. Every other class has a burst heal that can heal everyone in your group.

Aside from that, NBs have better group support than Sorcs, much better sustain than DKs, and the best HoTs in the game.

Note: Some people love Healthy Offering because it's heals for a lot, apparently doesn't have LoS constraints (which is good for PvP), gives minor mending, and is "free" (in a magicka sense), but my experience is that the inability to burst heal myself eventually gets me killed, and a dead healer is the worst healer.

Killing yourself with offering is a user issue to be honest, unless you are getting hit in pve by massive one shot mechanics, the raw hot throughput and healing done passives that magblade has will keep you stabilized.

In pvp, it's a different story, but if offering would self target like matriarch, bol etc, it would be the most busted self heal in the entire game by a country mile.

In pvp, Magblade healers would be able to spam themsleves with 15k+ crit heals every GCD for infinity. That would make them near immortal unless piled on, and that is on a basic standard balanced pvp build. I suppose you could implement a mechanic where if it heals the caster, it takes magicka instead, but as I've said many times before, the solution to magblade self healing is not a one button panicked burst heal. That is not what they need.

I'm not killing myself with Offering. I'm taking a hit that does 90% of my health in damage and then dying to a smaller hit because I can't heal myself back up to full fast enough. This sort of stuff may not happen in highly organized trials groups, but it happens all the time in vet PuGs.

I'm also not asking for Offering to be straight up changed to include a self heal. I agree that it would be ridiculous to have the ability to spend 2k health over time to instantly heal 10k health. What I would like is for Shrewd Offering (not Healthy Offering) to be changed to something with a magicka cost that can heal anybody in my group (including myself).

Even at 7 stacks of offering, if you are playing right you are generating a net positive amount of HPS to completely negate the dot damage. In extremely rare situations you maybe die because your life dips that low but that is hardly common. And even then, more importantly, if you are in a position as a nb healer where you are needing to dump offerings out to the point where you are taking max stacks, something has gone wrong beyond encounter mechanics.

The risk vs reward of malevolent offering only really exists in pvp.

It's like you didn't even read my post.

I repeat: I am not killing myself with Offering.

Offering costing health is not the problem. The problem is that it is not uncommon in vet PuGs for the healer to take big damage and require burst healing. Any other class can use a single burst heal to heal anybody in the group, but a Nightblade has to either slot a self-only burst heal (because they have unlimited bar space /s), or go completely without any ability to burst heal themself (which might work for some people/groups, but certainly doesn't work for me).

The OP asked what was wrong with Nightblade healers. In my opinion, that's what's wrong with them. Setting aside the burst heal problem, Nightblades are fine. If they had a more versatile/conventional burst heal they would be one of the better healing classes in the game.

ResidentContrarian

Not sure how anyone can kill themselves with offering in any context when healing ward exists, if your offering is strong, healing ward should also be very strong.

Does it seem silly to have two competing heals on a bar like that?

Probably, but both have their use and context IMO, and there is always the sustain advantage on offering.

exeeter702

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The biggest problem I have is that NB's burst heal can't heal yourself, and there isn't a good non-class burst heal available to replace it. Every other class has a burst heal that can heal everyone in your group.

Aside from that, NBs have better group support than Sorcs, much better sustain than DKs, and the best HoTs in the game.

Note: Some people love Healthy Offering because it's heals for a lot, apparently doesn't have LoS constraints (which is good for PvP), gives minor mending, and is "free" (in a magicka sense), but my experience is that the inability to burst heal myself eventually gets me killed, and a dead healer is the worst healer.

Killing yourself with offering is a user issue to be honest, unless you are getting hit in pve by massive one shot mechanics, the raw hot throughput and healing done passives that magblade has will keep you stabilized.

In pvp, it's a different story, but if offering would self target like matriarch, bol etc, it would be the most busted self heal in the entire game by a country mile.

In pvp, Magblade healers would be able to spam themsleves with 15k+ crit heals every GCD for infinity. That would make them near immortal unless piled on, and that is on a basic standard balanced pvp build. I suppose you could implement a mechanic where if it heals the caster, it takes magicka instead, but as I've said many times before, the solution to magblade self healing is not a one button panicked burst heal. That is not what they need.

I'm not killing myself with Offering. I'm taking a hit that does 90% of my health in damage and then dying to a smaller hit because I can't heal myself back up to full fast enough. This sort of stuff may not happen in highly organized trials groups, but it happens all the time in vet PuGs.

I'm also not asking for Offering to be straight up changed to include a self heal. I agree that it would be ridiculous to have the ability to spend 2k health over time to instantly heal 10k health. What I would like is for Shrewd Offering (not Healthy Offering) to be changed to something with a magicka cost that can heal anybody in my group (including myself).

Even at 7 stacks of offering, if you are playing right you are generating a net positive amount of HPS to completely negate the dot damage. In extremely rare situations you maybe die because your life dips that low but that is hardly common. And even then, more importantly, if you are in a position as a nb healer where you are needing to dump offerings out to the point where you are taking max stacks, something has gone wrong beyond encounter mechanics.

The risk vs reward of malevolent offering only really exists in pvp.

It's like you didn't even read my post.

I repeat: I am not killing myself with Offering.

Offering costing health is not the problem. The problem is that it is not uncommon in vet PuGs for the healer to take big damage and require burst healing. Any other class can use a single burst heal to heal anybody in the group, but a Nightblade has to either slot a self-only burst heal (because they have unlimited bar space /s), or go completely without any ability to burst heal themself (which might work for some people/groups, but certainly doesn't work for me).

The OP asked what was wrong with Nightblade healers. In my opinion, that's what's wrong with them. Setting aside the burst heal problem, Nightblades are fine. If they had a more versatile/conventional burst heal they would be one of the better healing classes in the game.

I read what you wrote. Not having a burst heal is not what makes or breaks a healer in pve. Outside of minor mending uptime, the raw throughput of offering is mostly wasted. If you take a 90 percent damage hit, and are not healed back up, then you are failing to properly play the magblad healer, as the raw amount of hots they have keep them safe.

Those powerful burst heals are more relevant in pvp environments. And in the 7 years I've been healing on magblade, not once have I needed a self targeted burst heal. That is not the weakness of nb healing in pve. And if anything, as was the case in the past, healing ward as an emergency spot heal actualy works quite well as it buffers the hp bar while the hots do their work, amd any magblade can back bar BRP resto and acheive the same if not more HPS while having a self saving heal button.

The only actual weakness that NBs have in the healer role in pve is the lack of utility that isnt easily sourced elsewhere or are made redundant by NBs in the dps role already covering them, and easy to activate synergies for allies.

Once upon a time, optimized groups make great use of one templar and a nb in the healer position, where the NB healer provided excellent HPS on par or in some cases exceeding the templars while providing more dps than the templar thank to funnel health and refreshing paths older versions (and in some encounters even sap essence), while the templar continued to have the monopoly on group stamina resource provision.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

No class synergies, no class buffs, shrewd offering is kinda useless when healthy offering exists, funnel health feels weak.

master_vanargand

Nightblade is unique and wonderful as the PvP Healer.
PvE? Yes, no hope.

Shaiba

Hello

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The problem is that it is not uncommon in vet PuGs for the healer to take big damage and require burst healing.

Why don't you use combat prayer for that kind of situation ? It'll bring you back to full immediately. It is a burst healing skill. And you'll probably already have it slotted (specially for vet PuGs).

Like any healer, we (nb healer) indeed have access to a skill which can self burst heal ourselves. Use offering to burst heal your tanks and/or your dds (if they're spread) ; to burst heal yourself or to AoE heal DDs who know how to position themselves you'll use combat prayer.

the1andonlyskwex

Shaiba wrote: »

Hello

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The problem is that it is not uncommon in vet PuGs for the healer to take big damage and require burst healing.

Why don't you use combat prayer for that kind of situation ? It'll bring you back to full immediately. It is a burst healing skill. And you'll probably already have it slotted (specially for vet PuGs).

Like any healer, we (nb healer) indeed have access to a skill which can self burst heal ourselves. Use offering to burst heal your tanks and/or your dds (if they're spread) ; to burst heal yourself or to AoE heal DDs who know how to position themselves you'll use combat prayer.

Do you not know how PuGs work? Almost nobody "knows how to position themselves", so Combat Prayer is usually a waste. Casting it often only hits one person (other than yourself), and half the time one of your DDs only does 5k DPS, making a 5% damage buff to them worse than bringing an additional damage skill of your own. Also, Combat Prayer heals for half as much as a normal burst heal. Ultimately, you're just saying NBs need to slot a second (worse) burst heal just for themself, which isn't necessary on any other class.

I don't really have a dog in this fight. I gave up on my NB healer years ago. I go back and try it out occasionally, but I always wind up focusing on my Sorcerer or Dragonknight because they just perform better. I also have healers of the other classes, but I either dislike their theme/aesthetic (Warden and Templar) or can't deal with their annoying QoL issues (like Necromancer criminal acts and their corpse-management minigame).

Shaiba

Do you not know how PuGs work? Almost nobody "knows how to position themselves"

Sadly, i know that, that's why i don't PuG that often. And i don't think devs should balance classes around bad PuG.

Also, Combat Prayer heals for half as much as a normal burst heal.

Which is more than enough to heal you full. My Combat Prayer heals for 15k/17k average on my NB, it's enough to recover yourself from a bad hit (add to that the HoTs you're maintaining). Avoid what's avoidable, your HoTs will cover the rest, specially on content you're doing with DDs who are at 5k DPS avg.

Ultimately, you're just saying NBs need to slot a second (worse) burst heal just for themself, which isn't necessary on any other class.

No it's not just for yourself, it's an AoE burst heal and it brings utility. And it is necessary on any other healing class for pushing content.

Casting it often only hits one person (other than yourself), and half the time one of your DDs only does 5k DPS, making a 5% damage buff to them worse than bringing an additional damage skill of your own.

Problem here isn't the healer's class, it's the DPS. You can't do DLC Hm with that kind of DPS anyway and besides DLC HM you won't take hits that will blow 90% of your HP pool, so i don't really see the problem here. I'm sorry I think I misunderstood what kind of content you were talking about, I was talking about content where one hit can blow 90% of the HP pool of the healer, (punishing content), you were talking about non HM or non DLC dungeons. Sorry again for the quiproquo. Can you clarify what kind of content you can complete with DDs who are at 5k avg AND at the same time where you take one hit that blow 90% of your HP pool off ?

You were just saying that you couldn't survive without a self burst healing skills when we have access to that kind of skills. Just wanted to help. Have a nice day.

the1andonlyskwex

Shaiba wrote: »

Do you not know how PuGs work? Almost nobody "knows how to position themselves"

Sadly, i know that, that's why i don't PuG that often. And i don't think devs should balance classes around bad PuG.

Also, Combat Prayer heals for half as much as a normal burst heal.

Which is more than enough to heal you full. My Combat Prayer heals for 15k/17k average on my NB, it's enough to recover yourself from a bad hit (add to that the HoTs you're maintaining). Avoid what's avoidable, your HoTs will cover the rest, specially on content you're doing with DDs who are at 5k DPS avg.

Ultimately, you're just saying NBs need to slot a second (worse) burst heal just for themself, which isn't necessary on any other class.

No it's not just for yourself, it's an AoE burst heal and it brings utility. And it is necessary on any other healing class for pushing content.

Casting it often only hits one person (other than yourself), and half the time one of your DDs only does 5k DPS, making a 5% damage buff to them worse than bringing an additional damage skill of your own.

Problem here isn't the healer's class, it's the DPS. You can't do DLC Hm with that kind of DPS anyway and besides DLC HM you won't take hits that will blow 90% of your HP pool, so i don't really see the problem here. I'm sorry I think I misunderstood what kind of content you were talking about, I was talking about content where one hit can blow 90% of the HP pool of the healer, (punishing content), you were talking about non HM or non DLC dungeons. Sorry again for the quiproquo. Can you clarify what kind of content you can complete with DDs who are at 5k avg AND at the same time where you take one hit that blow 90% of your HP pool off ?

[snip] that you couldn't survive without a self burst healing skills when we have access to that kind of skills. Just wanted to help. Have a nice day.

Your build is clearly different from mine. My Combat Prayer is a lot closer to 5k than 15k (although I don't remember exactly what it is).

There are tons of places where you can take big damage as a healer in base game vet dungeons. Just one example is the final boss of Wayrest Sewers 1 (HM), and in her case you absolutely need to burst heal after she leaps at you in order to avoid dying to the damage that comes after the initial burst.

Shaiba

There are tons of places where you can take big damage as a healer in base game vet dungeons. Just one example is the final boss of Wayrest Sewers 1 (HM), and in her case you absolutely need to burst heal after she leaps at you in order to avoid dying to the damage that comes after the initial burst.

That's one of the case where i use combat prayer to bring me (or the other person she leaps to) back to full. Leaps -> Combat Prayer -> she'll often do her whirlwind -> combat prayer (cause whirlwind is AoE). Maintain your HoT and block when she leaps. It does help.

exeeter702

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Shaiba wrote: »

Do you not know how PuGs work? Almost nobody "knows how to position themselves"

Sadly, i know that, that's why i don't PuG that often. And i don't think devs should balance classes around bad PuG.

Also, Combat Prayer heals for half as much as a normal burst heal.

Which is more than enough to heal you full. My Combat Prayer heals for 15k/17k average on my NB, it's enough to recover yourself from a bad hit (add to that the HoTs you're maintaining). Avoid what's avoidable, your HoTs will cover the rest, specially on content you're doing with DDs who are at 5k DPS avg.

Ultimately, you're just saying NBs need to slot a second (worse) burst heal just for themself, which isn't necessary on any other class.

No it's not just for yourself, it's an AoE burst heal and it brings utility. And it is necessary on any other healing class for pushing content.

Casting it often only hits one person (other than yourself), and half the time one of your DDs only does 5k DPS, making a 5% damage buff to them worse than bringing an additional damage skill of your own.

Problem here isn't the healer's class, it's the DPS. You can't do DLC Hm with that kind of DPS anyway and besides DLC HM you won't take hits that will blow 90% of your HP pool, so i don't really see the problem here. I'm sorry I think I misunderstood what kind of content you were talking about, I was talking about content where one hit can blow 90% of the HP pool of the healer, (punishing content), you were talking about non HM or non DLC dungeons. Sorry again for the quiproquo. Can you clarify what kind of content you can complete with DDs who are at 5k avg AND at the same time where you take one hit that blow 90% of your HP pool off ?

Sorry dude, but you were just moaning that you couldn't survive without a self burst healing skills when we have access to that kind of skills. Just wanted to help. Have a nice day.

Your build is clearly different from mine. My Combat Prayer is a lot closer to 5k than 15k (although I don't remember exactly what it is).

There are tons of places where you can take big damage as a healer in base game vet dungeons. Just one example is the final boss of Wayrest Sewers 1 (HM), and in her case you absolutely need to burst heal after she leaps at you in order to avoid dying to the damage that comes after the initial burst.

I dont mean any disrespect but I believe after reading your comments here, that you are coming from a much lower place of power. A combat prayer healing for 5k is either a user issue, or a build issue and I dont believe that perspective is in a place to accurately critique NB healing capability.

People solo vet sewers 1 and 2.

the1andonlyskwex

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Shaiba wrote: »

Do you not know how PuGs work? Almost nobody "knows how to position themselves"

Sadly, i know that, that's why i don't PuG that often. And i don't think devs should balance classes around bad PuG.

Also, Combat Prayer heals for half as much as a normal burst heal.

Which is more than enough to heal you full. My Combat Prayer heals for 15k/17k average on my NB, it's enough to recover yourself from a bad hit (add to that the HoTs you're maintaining). Avoid what's avoidable, your HoTs will cover the rest, specially on content you're doing with DDs who are at 5k DPS avg.

Ultimately, you're just saying NBs need to slot a second (worse) burst heal just for themself, which isn't necessary on any other class.

No it's not just for yourself, it's an AoE burst heal and it brings utility. And it is necessary on any other healing class for pushing content.

Casting it often only hits one person (other than yourself), and half the time one of your DDs only does 5k DPS, making a 5% damage buff to them worse than bringing an additional damage skill of your own.

Problem here isn't the healer's class, it's the DPS. You can't do DLC Hm with that kind of DPS anyway and besides DLC HM you won't take hits that will blow 90% of your HP pool, so i don't really see the problem here. I'm sorry I think I misunderstood what kind of content you were talking about, I was talking about content where one hit can blow 90% of the HP pool of the healer, (punishing content), you were talking about non HM or non DLC dungeons. Sorry again for the quiproquo. Can you clarify what kind of content you can complete with DDs who are at 5k avg AND at the same time where you take one hit that blow 90% of your HP pool off ?

Sorry dude, but you were just moaning that you couldn't survive without a self burst healing skills when we have access to that kind of skills. Just wanted to help. Have a nice day.

Your build is clearly different from mine. My Combat Prayer is a lot closer to 5k than 15k (although I don't remember exactly what it is).

There are tons of places where you can take big damage as a healer in base game vet dungeons. Just one example is the final boss of Wayrest Sewers 1 (HM), and in her case you absolutely need to burst heal after she leaps at you in order to avoid dying to the damage that comes after the initial burst.

I dont mean any disrespect but I believe after reading your comments here, that you are coming from a much lower place of power. A combat prayer healing for 5k is either a user issue, or a build issue and I dont believe that perspective is in a place to accurately critique NB healing capability.

People solo vet sewers 1 and 2.

I hate to break it to you, but there are a lot more people like me playing ESO than there are people at the extreme high end.

If ZOS can't get things right for casuals, there probably won't be a game left running for the hardcore to complain about.

Starlight_Whisper

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Shaiba wrote: »

Do you not know how PuGs work? Almost nobody "knows how to position themselves"

Sadly, i know that, that's why i don't PuG that often. And i don't think devs should balance classes around bad PuG.

Also, Combat Prayer heals for half as much as a normal burst heal.

Which is more than enough to heal you full. My Combat Prayer heals for 15k/17k average on my NB, it's enough to recover yourself from a bad hit (add to that the HoTs you're maintaining). Avoid what's avoidable, your HoTs will cover the rest, specially on content you're doing with DDs who are at 5k DPS avg.

Ultimately, you're just saying NBs need to slot a second (worse) burst heal just for themself, which isn't necessary on any other class.

No it's not just for yourself, it's an AoE burst heal and it brings utility. And it is necessary on any other healing class for pushing content.

Casting it often only hits one person (other than yourself), and half the time one of your DDs only does 5k DPS, making a 5% damage buff to them worse than bringing an additional damage skill of your own.

Problem here isn't the healer's class, it's the DPS. You can't do DLC Hm with that kind of DPS anyway and besides DLC HM you won't take hits that will blow 90% of your HP pool, so i don't really see the problem here. I'm sorry I think I misunderstood what kind of content you were talking about, I was talking about content where one hit can blow 90% of the HP pool of the healer, (punishing content), you were talking about non HM or non DLC dungeons. Sorry again for the quiproquo. Can you clarify what kind of content you can complete with DDs who are at 5k avg AND at the same time where you take one hit that blow 90% of your HP pool off ?

Sorry dude, but you were just moaning that you couldn't survive without a self burst healing skills when we have access to that kind of skills. Just wanted to help. Have a nice day.

Your build is clearly different from mine. My Combat Prayer is a lot closer to 5k than 15k (although I don't remember exactly what it is).

There are tons of places where you can take big damage as a healer in base game vet dungeons. Just one example is the final boss of Wayrest Sewers 1 (HM), and in her case you absolutely need to burst heal after she leaps at you in order to avoid dying to the damage that comes after the initial burst.

I dont mean any disrespect but I believe after reading your comments here, that you are coming from a much lower place of power. A combat prayer healing for 5k is either a user issue, or a build issue and I dont believe that perspective is in a place to accurately critique NB healing capability.

People solo vet sewers 1 and 2.

15k is extreme and I am definitely at high end at 1450 cp. 15k cp sounds more like dps burst heal then healer heals.

the1andonlyskwex

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Shaiba wrote: »

Do you not know how PuGs work? Almost nobody "knows how to position themselves"

Sadly, i know that, that's why i don't PuG that often. And i don't think devs should balance classes around bad PuG.

Also, Combat Prayer heals for half as much as a normal burst heal.

Which is more than enough to heal you full. My Combat Prayer heals for 15k/17k average on my NB, it's enough to recover yourself from a bad hit (add to that the HoTs you're maintaining). Avoid what's avoidable, your HoTs will cover the rest, specially on content you're doing with DDs who are at 5k DPS avg.

Ultimately, you're just saying NBs need to slot a second (worse) burst heal just for themself, which isn't necessary on any other class.

No it's not just for yourself, it's an AoE burst heal and it brings utility. And it is necessary on any other healing class for pushing content.

Casting it often only hits one person (other than yourself), and half the time one of your DDs only does 5k DPS, making a 5% damage buff to them worse than bringing an additional damage skill of your own.

Problem here isn't the healer's class, it's the DPS. You can't do DLC Hm with that kind of DPS anyway and besides DLC HM you won't take hits that will blow 90% of your HP pool, so i don't really see the problem here. I'm sorry I think I misunderstood what kind of content you were talking about, I was talking about content where one hit can blow 90% of the HP pool of the healer, (punishing content), you were talking about non HM or non DLC dungeons. Sorry again for the quiproquo. Can you clarify what kind of content you can complete with DDs who are at 5k avg AND at the same time where you take one hit that blow 90% of your HP pool off ?

Sorry dude, but you were just moaning that you couldn't survive without a self burst healing skills when we have access to that kind of skills. Just wanted to help. Have a nice day.

Your build is clearly different from mine. My Combat Prayer is a lot closer to 5k than 15k (although I don't remember exactly what it is).

There are tons of places where you can take big damage as a healer in base game vet dungeons. Just one example is the final boss of Wayrest Sewers 1 (HM), and in her case you absolutely need to burst heal after she leaps at you in order to avoid dying to the damage that comes after the initial burst.

I dont mean any disrespect but I believe after reading your comments here, that you are coming from a much lower place of power. A combat prayer healing for 5k is either a user issue, or a build issue and I dont believe that perspective is in a place to accurately critique NB healing capability.

People solo vet sewers 1 and 2.

15k is extreme and I am definitely at high end at 1450 cp. 15k cp sounds more like dps burst heal then healer heals.

I just checked my DK healer and his tooltip value is 7k (fully self-buffed, with Major Courage, Major Sorcery, and magicka food). My NB is probably closer to 8k because of passives, but I haven't respecced him since u29. My DK is an Argonian currently wearing all purple gear: SPC and Lich (preparing for my Overwhelming Surge to go poof), with 1050cp. He certainly isn't optimized for big tooltips, but he isn't exactly badly geared as PuG healers go either.

I agree that 15k sounds like a DPS build, or a crit on a golded out trials build with SD jewelry. It certainly isn't representative of anyone with a casual or semi-casual playstyle, which is what I tend to represent in these threads.

Shaiba

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

15k cp sounds more like dps burst heal then healer heals.

What do you mean with DPS burst heal ? I'm 1272 CP, all my healing CPs are maxxed and slotted, all magicka/crit passives too. My stuff is gold SPC/master architect/encratis (or sympho of blades) for dungeon - Roaring opportunist/jorvuld/encratis (or bogdan) for raids. I'm khajiit.

I just checked my DK healer and his tooltip value is 7k

My tooltip on my NB unbuffed (only with my food, wearing my dungeon gear) :
https://i.ibb.co/jzvxGDK/CP-unbuffed.png
My tooltip self-buffed (pots, food, major courage, wearing my dungeon gear) :
https://i.ibb.co/47kzrjK/CP-buffed.png
EDIT : oops I forgot minor mending on this pic, here we are :
https://i.ibb.co/pPVFvd3/CP-buffed-with-minor-mending.png

SD glyphs on jewelry isn't only for DPS or non-casual playstyle, as soon as you have enough magicka recovery on your healer to not be OOM on any content you're doing, stacking more mag recovery is useless, meaning you can slot more useful glyphs on your build. I use 3 SD glyphs on my opportunist build (to max out uptime), and 2 SD glyphs on my dungeon build.

casual or semi-casual playstyle,

Casual playstyle doesn't mean you have to use an inneficient build. Casual only means you're playing chill, and/or don't have much time to play.