Year-long themes hurting stories

EthanolMuffins

Ever since ZOS has started these year long themes with Elsweyr, it feels like the stories have been decreasing in quality and everything is forced onto the same script which ruins some of the uniqueness the story could have had. It can and has lead to pacing issues as well, with the story needing to stretch the whole year, it forces the story to end abruptly so the Q4 DLC can have something to have as its story focus. These year long themes are hurting the potential the writing has, as it is being boxed in to meet the year long theme and makes things rigid comparably to if they had the stories be more independent.

Iccotak

EthanolMuffins wrote: »

Ever since ZOS has started these year long themes with Elsweyr, it feels like the stories have been decreasing in quality and everything is forced onto the same script which ruins some of the uniqueness the story could have had. It can and has lead to pacing issues as well, with the story needing to stretch the whole year, it forces the story to end abruptly so the Q4 DLC can have something to have as its story focus. These year long themes are hurting the potential the writing has, as it is being boxed in to meet the year long theme and makes things rigid comparably to if they had the stories be more independent.

To the contrary, I would say the problem is not stretching but rather squashing.

The Daedric War arc took place over 3 zone content drops over the course of two years. Morrowind, CWC, and Summerset. That was a well paced story.

So really what I would say is that with an increase in team size there should ideally be an increase in content output - have three zones a year.

Elsweyr's story rushed the epilogue of the final confrontation with the antagonist Kaalgrontiid and did not give enough time for other characters. The Chapter felt like too many storylines were squashed into one storyline. It could have been a better overall story if it had included the zone in the middle, to better pace the story, with Maarselok the Azure Blight Dragon as the antagonist who was ravaging the jungle.

The question is if with the team increase, and Microsoft acquisition, could ZOS handle that content increase output?

edited for more info & punctuation

FluffWit

For me....
Elsweyr. I enjoyed the story, the Khajiit were slightly interesting and as a sucker for Imperials I really liked how they were portrayed.
South Elsweyr. Met Sai Sahan. Said "well this is stupid" and basically skipped all dialogue after that.
Greymoor. Expected to hate Lyris. Ended up enjoying here company and the story, the other two quest companions were cool too.
The Reach. Hurt the awful Scottish accents and haven't done a single quest in the zone except the dailies.

I don't know that the year long theme hurts it really. I liked how Greymoor and Elsweyr wrapped up.

JoDiMageio

Absolutely agree, I mentioned something similar in a previous post somewhere else in here.

The Daedric War arc was well-developed, well-written, gave continuity to the game over multiple releases, and left you looking forward to what was coming next. It gave momentum to the game, and created a sense of purpose to what you were accomplishing.

These year-long adventures on the other hand are very superficial, the stories don't feel fully fleshed out, and if you think about it, you've gone from a Daedric Prince butt-kicking hero to... a mercenary, accepting random jobs from people who need help, but without a real sense of purpose behind it.

As someone who loves the lore and the story-telling, I find that the format at the moment usually leaves me somewhat disappointed - not to say that the chapters are inherently bad, I still enjoy the content, but there is no longer a sense of continuity which I much preferred when there was an over-reaching arc supporting the content.

Iccotak

JoDiMageio wrote: »

Absolutely agree, I mentioned something similar in a previous post somewhere else in here.

The Daedric War arc was well-developed, well-written, gave continuity to the game over multiple releases, and left you looking forward to what was coming next. It gave momentum to the game, and created a sense of purpose to what you were accomplishing.

These year-long adventures on the other hand are very superficial, the stories don't feel fully fleshed out, and if you think about it, you've gone from a Daedric Prince butt-kicking hero to... a mercenary, accepting random jobs from people who need help, but without a real sense of purpose behind it.

As someone who loves the lore and the story-telling, I find that the format at the moment usually leaves me somewhat disappointed - not to say that the chapters are inherently bad, I still enjoy the content, but there is no longer a sense of continuity which I much preferred when there was an over-reaching arc supporting the content.

Continuity is still there, but the player has to actively make sure they do it in the right order - which is why we have so many posts from people who are confused.
This also puts ZOS in a position to create content where players can do the main story of content out of order.

Problem I can see though is one solid theme & aesthetic over the course of two years becoming a drag.

I like having a year with one solid theme - but what I do not care for is the lack of content in that year which leads to very rushed narratives.

imo I think ZOS/Microsoft should invest in larger teams that should compensate for the work necessary to put out 1 Chapter & 2 smaller dlc zones.

To address continuity, maybe ZOS could do a one-time paid Expansion but content released over the course of the year. Kind of like WoW expansions. I think ZOS would have to re-examine & re-think their entire content release plan..

Wing

my own issues are the fact that because its a year long story with the expansion being the bulk of the content everything is wrapped up in a small DLC

its like the elsweyr and greymoor expansion are GoT seasons 1-7

then a few months later we get season 8 to speed wrap it all up.


i felt this was super obvious in the reach as we learned nothing about the Grey host through the majority of the expansion, and only stopped one of their side plots, then markarth came along and was like "here they are, here's there entire back story, here is their leader, and there you go, all done."

i also think think this lack of a timeline thing in ESO has got to go, we need clear story progression and to be done with this "all of this is kind of at the same time sorta kinda" thing.

i dont play WoW, and i only played a little of FF14, but i still keep up with and know there stories better then ESO, because the way ESO is set up you cannot follow a set of main characters the players work around.

Netheniel

I generally agree. Prior to the annual releases, I've found the stories a bit more engaging and memorable (the core game quest lines are still the most memorable for me). After Morrowind, IMO the main story arcs have gone a little downhill. Manly starting with Elsweyr. It's not the ideas were bad, just the execution was. It's the cliche monologue evil villains who create world ending events only to have their rear ends handed to them by my wooden staff. I'm also not a fan of stories that resort to a deus ex machina in order to create a happy ending. It's just ultra lazy writing.

Is the year long marketing buzz to blame? I don't know. I don't think it's impossible to tell good stories in an annual release, but it is a lot of stress on the development team to pump out content on an annual basis. There's no room for error or creative experimentation. These "episodes" could very well just be the development team playing it safe. Who knows really. Ask Rich Lambert if he ever decides to do an AMA

Lugaldu

In general, I think the idea of a year-long story is good. But it shouldn't be like in Greymoor, where the first part feels like an endless prologue and the story as a whole feels artificially stretched. During Dark Heart of Skyrim it was good that with Western Skyrim, Blackreach and the Reach we had three differently designed zones, that made it varied. In the case of Elsweyr I couldn't see any more deserts and cats in the end and I was glad when the year was over. I think that it will now be varied again with Blackwood, as we see different cultures and regions.

Tethilia

I agree. I'm not liking these year long stories. I don't mind having a theme for the year like Skyrim or Cyrodil, just if you are going to do these stories, either finish them when they feel appropriate to end or get them over with in one expansion.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

If only we could return to the wonderful story telling we had with the Daedric War Arc... Honestly though, one of the things that really irks me about these models of year long tales is that the chapter is unsatisfying and leaves so many loose ends for the much smaller dlc to finish, including the climax and denouement, which is problematic and leads to awful pacing. It feels completely backwards. If they really MUST do these year long stories, I would propose publishing a DLC zone pack in the beginning of the year as a proper introduction leading into the climax and denouement with the chapter, then put the dungeons at the end. That would at least make more sense. But either way, I'm not a fan of the model.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Hopefully they drop the year-long chapter disappointment by next year.

Several smaller DLCs with their own themes and features that were released over the year were more interesting like the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood.

Runefang

I’d prefer they did 3 quarter stories and then one free form DLC (ie whatever the creatives come up that is interesting). It’ll allow for the longer story telling that some want while having variety that others want.

Consider if every DLC was a stand alone story. The ability to tell a long in-depth story would be gone. There are pros and cons in all approaches.

Iccotak

Problem is the position ZOS are in to monetize content.

Dungeon & Zone DLCs come with subscription. Chapters are also used to get people interested in the game, so a new player will experience a chapter and the game says - "Hey the story will continue this year - you can buy it when it comes out, OR have it automatically as part of our subscription plan."

While the storytelling hasn't exactly been great we also have to acknowledge that it has been working for them to operate this way to make a profit.

So the question is what is the best "Year-Long Story" content format that
- Tells a good & comprehensive story
- Gets New people interested, while keeping older players engaged
- Works with the subscription plan

WoW can tell a story over the course of two years because of its zone progression system AND you have to be subscribed to keep playing the story over two years.

ESO is not Warcraft. It is a Buy-2-Play game, it does not have required subscription and therefore it cannot really tell stories the same way that a Pay-2-Play game like Warcraft can.

For starters, I think ZOS should start packing Chapters & DLCs into "Year Packs" in the crown store. Keep it clear & concise.
Secondly, I think ZOS should re-evaluate how they tell stories in their content drops. Stop trying to tell stories like WoW, be the best version of ESO.

Iccotak

To be clear on their storytelling method; it is basically a mini-version of the base game.

- The players is introduced to the Main Threat
- The player plays through some zones that have events that are related to the Main Threat
- Once player beats the side storylines then they can finally face the main threat.

I mean think about it, the epilogue for facing the Main Villain - after beating the Chapter & Zone DLC is really like a super condensed version of the Coldharbour zone in the base game story.

food for thought

Hallothiel

Whilst I like the longer stories, linking the different new material through the year, I have found that with both Dragonguard & The Reach I have preferred their pace and content to the chapter beforehand.

Perhaps its because the main stories in both Elsweyr & Skyrim were slightly meh. (And this from someone who adores the sarcasm of Tharn). Not the dragons or the grey host, but the ‘help the princess’ bit, which was frankly, dull. (I am not 6 years old.) Some side quests were good, but the main quests had to much running back & forth, and waaaaay to much repeated explanations. (Yes, Lyris, I know what we just did & why, I’ve just completed the quest with you. So why go through what we have just done? Are players really that stupid that they need that?! Dearie me!)

But the stand alone dlcs have had brilliant & engaging storylines (my one gripe about DB & TG is that you can’t just work straight through the storylines) & previous chapters have too.

Maybe they need to put more of the story into the chapter? Or at least better hints/pre-quests?

maboleth

For me it's - whatever you do, it will be the same go-there-do-that, kill a boss with your eyes closed or little effort and pretend it was an epic fight/battle/struggle.

It really comes to that. Some quests are really funny and interesting. Voice acting is top notch.

From new stuff, I really liked Skyrim quests and overall Elsweyr. But:

1. Little more effort from story tellers and more dynamic quests, aside from 'pick flowers, find X to give her daisies'. Are people that dumb now? Or is this dumbing down of people?

CWC, TG, DB all had great and interesting quests.

2. Fights are NOT epic. They simply are not. You don't need any special gear to beat the bosses. Anyone familiar with the mechanics (leveling 1-50) will know how to handle this. Finishing main quests are more like - I've seen it, I completed it. Rather than "woah, that was an epic closing of a beautiful quest(s), I kind of already miss it".

Seeing underwhelming Oblivion chapter already, my hopes and expectations are all time low. Great trailer, but similar world assets and probably same type of disposable quests.

Hallothiel

@maboleth

I agree about the big bad at the end of main questlines - have suggested in others threads that is where Zos could implement an instanced vet version.

(And no, would not be expecting greater rewards.)

Iccotak

The end story boss fights are such a mood killer - its not a joke. The only reason I am playing this years story is because of Argonian theme.

Making engaging gameplay & engaging story separate is just bad design, and it is a design choice that has ultimately killed much of my interest in future story content. I do not expect to be playing next year or for some time if they do not make some major changes when it comes to story bosses in particular.

Luke_Flamesword

Well, it's not one year format fault that story is again and again about evil forces invasion and even twice in a row we have princesses becaming new ruler. It's like Disney classic stories for kids... And I heard that's adult game...

DreadDaedroth

I'd like to see new dlc dungeons not tied to year long chapter, bring something fresh and new.

Sarousse

The only thing ruining stories is the super low difficulty on the main plot.

ZoS teases us a SUPER OLD OVERPOWERED VAMPIRE during the whole questline in Skyrim that is weakest than my banker NPC.

How can I be excited about any new content then ?

Lugaldu

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Well, it's not one year format fault that story is again and again about evil forces invasion and even twice in a row we have princesses becaming new ruler. It's like Disney classic stories for kids... And I heard that's adult game...

Well, we will probably never be able to side with Rada al-Saran and Co. But that's exactly what would bring something new, if we could join the dark side. How great it would for the roleplaying if you as an assasin can get the princess out of the way in the end instead of helping her to the throne.

RedMuse

Lugaldu wrote: »

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Well, it's not one year format fault that story is again and again about evil forces invasion and even twice in a row we have princesses becaming new ruler. It's like Disney classic stories for kids... And I heard that's adult game...

Well, we will probably never be able to side with Rada al-Saran and Co. But that's exactly what would bring something new, if we could join the dark side. How great it would for the roleplaying if you as an assasin can get the princess out of the way in the end instead of helping her to the throne.

Rxcept for at least the last three single player TES games this has not been possible. Don't know about Arena and Daggerfall, but from Morrowind and onward you have never been able to join with the main bad guy. This is after all heroic fantasy, bringing about the world's destruction was never in the cards and frankly I'm glad they're keeping those edgelord plots off the table. Plenty of games out there with that idea if that's your milage, just keep it out of Elder Scrolls.

As for the year long expansions I really see it as an issue with learning how to pace the story now that it is broken into two parts. Elsweyr worked well imo, could have been better but it wasn't bad. Greymoor was less good, mainly because imo the writers of this game are not very good at pacing mystery plots even when confined to one dlc (points to Orsinium and Murkmire), much less over the course of two.
I'd say the uneven pacing and plot structure in the last two years is more the result of being early in the learning curve. Hopefully this year will be better, we'll see.

Lugaldu

RedMuse wrote: »

Rxcept for at least the last three single player TES games this has not been possible. Don't know about Arena and Daggerfall, but from Morrowind and onward you have never been able to join with the main bad guy. This is after all heroic fantasy, bringing about the world's destruction was never in the cards and frankly I'm glad they're keeping those edgelord plots off the table. Plenty of games out there with that idea if that's your milage, just keep it out of Elder Scrolls.

Even if it wasn't possible so far, playing different storylines would be an interesting innovation in my opinion. It just feels so weird sometimes to play an assassin, necromancer, vampire and then try to save the world on the "good side".

Dark_Lord_Kuro

As other as said
I think that having a 3rd zone would help flesh out the story and character as it would be kind of like the deadric triad storyline but whitout the the unrelated stuff inbetween

Also not starting with the chapter would help but im not sure it would be good to put it on q4 as there is a lot of big release around then
Maybe,
Q1 dungeon pack
Q2 zone dlc+ 1 dungeon
Q3 chapter
Q4 smaller zone(hewbane size) dlc for the epilogue +1 dungeon,
would be a way to do it?
But they probably would need a bigger team for that

I personnaly like the yearly story

Sylvermynx

IIRC, in Daggerfall you could choose to not be the "actual" good guy hero at the end (I haven't played it in many years - just tried it again, but it's all first person and I can't do that any more). In fact, I remember the MQ as a pretty grisly experience overall.

To the point of the thread: I like the year of story - and since I'm not looking for "difficult" fun, I'm happy with the way it is now. I LOVED Elsweyr. I haven't any use for the Skyrim bits or vampires and weres so that was only not a lost year because of antiquities.

This year might not be very great either because I don't like anything about argonians; unless the Imperial parts make up for it, the only thing I'll get out of this year will be a couple of great houses and a few more antiquities.

trackdemon5512

The reason for the year long stories goes beyond a stronger narrative to keep players engaged. Its A LOT easier on the development team than having disparate content each quarter.

First, ESO is going to stick to the 4 DLCs a year: 2 dungeons and 2 zones. It’s an excellent balance and ensures constant consistent content to keep the player base engaged. At the same time they can keep a regular development schedule for balancing updates that players can count on.

Other games such as Destiny 2 and The Division went ages without DLC and it really hurt their player base.

Second, the developers have stated that year long storylines streamline content development. Assets are similar and the zones/dungeons share many similarities. It’s easier on the art team and then the developers coding all of these assets.

I remember how disparate the updates were from Wrothgar to Vvardenfell to Clockwork City to Summerset. Clockwork City itself was a huge jump in visual style and then 6 months later you had Summerset which was basically everything was new. The furniture, flora, fauna, architecture, lighting, effects, etc were a dramatic shift and reportedly was incredibly taxing on the teams.

And how was this all followed up? With Murkmire which had been in some form of development since Craglorn was added. Murkmire felt like a way to give the team a break after 2 years of a wild story exhausted them.

The year long stories have done well and give players an expectation of what’s to come. And for those that aren’t a fan they know that within X amount of time a new story will be up that they can jump into and re-enter the game easily if they left.

Iccotak

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

As other as said
I think that having a 3rd zone would help flesh out the story and character as it would be kind of like the deadric triad storyline but whitout the the unrelated stuff inbetween

Also not starting with the chapter would help but im not sure it would be good to put it on q4 as there is a lot of big release around then
Maybe,
Q1 dungeon pack
Q2 zone dlc+ 1 dungeon
Q3 chapter
Q4 smaller zone(hewbane size) dlc for the epilogue +1 dungeon,
would be a way to do it?
But they probably would need a bigger team for that

I personally like the yearly story

Well the dungeons is more part of the prologue, and the chapter has the "Big Features" that get people excited. So -

Q1 Dungeon x2 + Prologue
Q2 Chapter
Q3 Zone + 1 Dungeon
Q4 Zone + 1 Dungeon

That could work, maybe mix it up a little bit every now & again. Like instead of a dungeon in Q4 it could have an Arena

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

Lugaldu wrote: »

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Well, it's not one year format fault that story is again and again about evil forces invasion and even twice in a row we have princesses becaming new ruler. It's like Disney classic stories for kids... And I heard that's adult game...

Well, we will probably never be able to side with Rada al-Saran and Co. But that's exactly what would bring something new, if we could join the dark side. How great it would for the roleplaying if you as an assasin can get the princess out of the way in the end instead of helping her to the throne.

Honestly, I don't understand why the possibility of an alliance or compromise with Rada was never even considered. Your soul is claimed by Molag Bal? My soul was claimed by Molag Bal. Let's get some friends together and kick his butt.

Iccotak

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Well, it's not one year format fault that story is again and again about evil forces invasion and even twice in a row we have princesses becaming new ruler. It's like Disney classic stories for kids... And I heard that's adult game...

Well, we will probably never be able to side with Rada al-Saran and Co. But that's exactly what would bring something new, if we could join the dark side. How great it would for the roleplaying if you as an assasin can get the princess out of the way in the end instead of helping her to the throne.

Honestly, I don't understand why the possibility of an alliance or compromise with Rada was never even considered. Your soul is claimed by Molag Bal? My soul was claimed by Molag Bal. Let's get some friends together and kick his butt.

Honestly I am surprised Namira did not play a bigger part. I also would have like some original Namira Daedra instead of just the Void Re-skins who feel WAY too much like the Taken from Destiny

Jaimeh

I don't know if it's because of the forced theme from the overarching year story, but the dialogues in Greymoor were really bad, a downgrade from Elsweyr, and moreso from earlier chapters. Maybe the fact that they have to adhere to the same story leaves little room for variation in the writing, or maybe it was the pandemic effect, but I was surprised because ESO usually has pretty great writing, and it was especially bad in that chapter (on a kind of related note, I thought the voice acting was bad as well, Markarth DLC in particular).