Will Player Skill have a Renaissance in ESO?

Zodiarkslayer

With the recent announcements on the PTS to cut down power from Champion Points even more, I thought it is time to talk about player skill.
I generally like to see passive power cut down, because what is left is individual skill. That in turn means, that a Player has to know his role, its purpose and an idea of how to accomplish that by himself.

If Champion Points take away or diminish the need to do that, then:
Hhat is the achievement in finishing a Dungeon Trifecta, anyway?
What is the purpose of a game, that plays me by forcing me to grind for power, instead of me playing it?
What is the purpose of a multiplayer game, that allows one very good player to do the work and three others to be unwitting bystanders?
What is the purpose of bying a dungeon DLC, when I see no interesting mechanics or have no unique experience, because my group only needs to burn the Boss?

ZOS, this is the Way!

bmnoble

Then what is the point of re doing the leveling system too see who has the highest number or something.

If you reduce the pay off from leveling up you also greatly reduce the incentive to level up.

I thought the passives were too low to make much difference with the new CP system as it is currently, now most look like they are going to be cut in half with the next update.

Sure they will reduce the CP cost of a number of the stars they are cutting in half as well, so getting all the passives will be easier freeing up more points for slottables most of which hold no interest to me at all, basically meaning for me at least, once the changes go live I will be finished needing to level any further with the brand new reworked CP system.

FantasticFreddie

Since Zos has explicitly stated they want to decrease the difference in damage capabilites between more skilled and less skilled players, the answer to your question is an emphatic no

BlueRaven

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Since Zos has explicitly stated they want to decrease the difference in damage capabilites between more skilled and less skilled players, the answer to your question is an emphatic no

The bizarre thing is that they really did not do that, they just brought everyone’s numbers down.

If they want to bring the numbers closer, they should not bring down the passives that everyone uses. They need to identify the techniques the upper end uses, and target those for damage reduction.

Of course they could also leave the upper end as is, and try to target ways they can raise the floor instead, but that path is not very clear.

The_Lex

IMO, this is a more important question: Will we see a development and performance renaissance in ESO.

Agenericname

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Since Zos has explicitly stated they want to decrease the difference in damage capabilites between more skilled and less skilled players, the answer to your question is an emphatic no

I believe they are differentiating between the damage of a player and the skill of a player. Without the damage to burn the mechanics before they happen, will the skill level of the players rise to compensate?

colossalvoids

The_Lex wrote: »

IMO, this is a more important question: Will we see development and performance renaissance in ESO.

More likely that we'll see TES 9 first.

Grandchamp1989

BlueRaven wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Since Zos has explicitly stated they want to decrease the difference in damage capabilites between more skilled and less skilled players, the answer to your question is an emphatic no

The bizarre thing is that they really did not do that, they just brought everyone’s numbers down.

If they want to bring the numbers closer, they should not bring down the passives that everyone uses. They need to identify the techniques the upper end uses, and target those for damage reduction.

Of course they could also leave the upper end as is, and try to target ways they can raise the floor instead, but that path is not very clear.

You wanna hear something really Ironic mate?

The main difference beween joe average and Mr Endgame is how perfect Mr Endgame can do his light attack weaving. We all know that.

But... Zos said they want to lower the Ceiling and this patch they nerfed CP even further.. Again, we know that.

This should affect everyone kinda.. sorta.. equally right..

Nope.. They added a new star in CP to increase the damage of your light and heavy attacks.

So while everyone is getting nerfed.. Guess who benefit the most from this new star?

Could it be the guy with the perfect weaving? lmfaoo

Zos is too funny sometimes.

BlueRaven

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Since Zos has explicitly stated they want to decrease the difference in damage capabilites between more skilled and less skilled players, the answer to your question is an emphatic no

The bizarre thing is that they really did not do that, they just brought everyone’s numbers down.

If they want to bring the numbers closer, they should not bring down the passives that everyone uses. They need to identify the techniques the upper end uses, and target those for damage reduction.

Of course they could also leave the upper end as is, and try to target ways they can raise the floor instead, but that path is not very clear.

You wanna hear something really Ironic mate?

The main difference beween joe average and Mr Endgame is how perfect Mr Endgame can do his light attack weaving. We all know that.

But... Zos said they want to lower the Ceiling and this patch they nerfed CP even further.. Again, we know that.

This should affect everyone kinda.. sorta.. equally right..

Nope.. They added a new start to increase the damage of your light and heavy attacks.

So while everyone is getting nerfed.. Guess who benefit the most from this new star?

Could it be the guy with the perfect weaving? lmfaoo

Zos is too funny sometimes.

I was not aware of this. /facepalm

So they effectively made the gap wider. I would say “unbelievable” but nothing surprises me about the combat team anymore.

Kiralyn2000

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Since Zos has explicitly stated they want to decrease the difference in damage capabilites between more skilled and less skilled players, the answer to your question is an emphatic no

If it takes Massive Skill to reach the damage cap when it's 100k dps.
And it still takes Massive Skill to reach the damage cap when it's been reduced to 70k dps.
How has Player Skill been reduced?


Bad Players still make bad damage, and Skilled Players still reach the damage cap.


(or - if it still takes Skill to get lots of damage, why does it matter if that damage is 5x what bad players do rather than 10x?)

Stevie6

Just make it increase damage to heavy attack only and treat LA as a low damage for single target. La doesn’t get buffed at all by passives or actives in the CP tree. That should help with raising the floor while lowering the ceiling.

The_Lex

@Grandchamp1989 was spot with his assessment above.

What do high-end dps'ers say to low-end dps'ers who ask for advice on increasing their DPS? They always tell them to perfect their rotation and light attack weaving. When applying to a trials guild a while back, one of the first things the raid leader did was check my light attack ratio in the combat parse. My overall number DPS met the requirements for the guild, but he was quick to say that I could raise it even higher if I perfected my light attack weaving.

Light attacks and light attack weaving is essential to get the high DPS numbers that we see in build videos. So it mystifies me that ZOS thinks it can lower the DPS ceiling by nerfing CPs, while buffing light attack damage. The lower tier DPS'ers struggle primarily with rotation and light attack weaving. Upper end DPS'ers DO NOT struggle with rotation and light attack weaving.

If these changes make it to Live, the low end DPS'ers will continue to struggle with rotation and light attack weaving, but now they will also see a hit due to the CP nerf. The ceiling AND the floor will both be lowered.

BejaProphet

Taking away light attack weaving would reduc the role of skill.

We want to close the gap created by skill, not reduce the role of skill. There is a big difference.

The_Lex

BejaProphet wrote: »

Taking away light attack weaving would reduc the role of skill.

We want to close the gap created by skill, not reduce the role of skill. There is a big difference.

Perhaps, but nerfing CPs and buffing LA damage won't accomplish the goal. You can't nerf or buff skill, so I doubt anything can be done about lower skilled players. ZOS might be able to create a better, more in-depth tutorial. They may be able to provide incentives for increasing skill somehow. But, we're talking about serious creativity. I believe the ZOS devs possess creativity, but I don't believe that such creativity will ever make it into the game. There is almost zero financial incentive to do so.

EDIT: and I never said "take away light attack weaving." I was criticizing ZOS' solution to lowering the DPS ceiling.

Zodiarkslayer

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Since Zos has explicitly stated they want to decrease the difference in damage capabilites between more skilled and less skilled players, the answer to your question is an emphatic no

The bizarre thing is that they really did not do that, they just brought everyone’s numbers down.

If they want to bring the numbers closer, they should not bring down the passives that everyone uses. They need to identify the techniques the upper end uses, and target those for damage reduction.

Of course they could also leave the upper end as is, and try to target ways they can raise the floor instead, but that path is not very clear.

You wanna hear something really Ironic mate?

The main difference beween joe average and Mr Endgame is how perfect Mr Endgame can do his light attack weaving. We all know that.

But... Zos said they want to lower the Ceiling and this patch they nerfed CP even further.. Again, we know that.

This should affect everyone kinda.. sorta.. equally right..

Nope.. They added a new star in CP to increase the damage of your light and heavy attacks.

So while everyone is getting nerfed.. Guess who benefit the most from this new star?

Could it be the guy with the perfect weaving? lmfaoo

Zos is too funny sometimes.

WOW! The first guy, who gets it!

With the new patch, as is, the gap between (mainly, but not lmited to) skilled DPS and unskilled is getting bigger. Learning how to skillfully play and how to rotate and to weave is incentivised much more now in the U30!

I estimate that with the U30 CP changes, Joe Average looses about 15 too 20% DPS, while High end players will loose only about 3% to 5%.

And by the way: Grinding for CP will become more useless. If you used the same time to train with a Dummy and let a guild mate help you with it, instead of grinding, you would get a higher DPS boost.

Hence the name of the thread...

ZOS, this is the way!

BejaProphet

Wasn’t responding to your post in particular. I’ve no clue how to make that not sound snotty 😬. I don’t mean it that way though. Just saying not to take my post as a rebuttal of your more specific points.

The_Lex

BejaProphet wrote: »

Wasn’t responding to your post in particular. I’ve no clue how to make that not sound snotty 😬. I don’t mean it that way though. Just saying not to take my post as a rebuttal of your more specific points.

No worries!

The_Lex

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Since Zos has explicitly stated they want to decrease the difference in damage capabilites between more skilled and less skilled players, the answer to your question is an emphatic no

The bizarre thing is that they really did not do that, they just brought everyone’s numbers down.

If they want to bring the numbers closer, they should not bring down the passives that everyone uses. They need to identify the techniques the upper end uses, and target those for damage reduction.

Of course they could also leave the upper end as is, and try to target ways they can raise the floor instead, but that path is not very clear.

You wanna hear something really Ironic mate?

The main difference beween joe average and Mr Endgame is how perfect Mr Endgame can do his light attack weaving. We all know that.

But... Zos said they want to lower the Ceiling and this patch they nerfed CP even further.. Again, we know that.

This should affect everyone kinda.. sorta.. equally right..

Nope.. They added a new star in CP to increase the damage of your light and heavy attacks.

So while everyone is getting nerfed.. Guess who benefit the most from this new star?

Could it be the guy with the perfect weaving? lmfaoo

Zos is too funny sometimes.

And by the way: Grinding for CP will become more useless. If you used the same time to train with a Dummy and let a guild mate help you with it, instead of grinding, you would get a higher DPS boost.


ZOS, this is the way!

This is very true. But, a less skilled player will likely have a less skilled view of game mechanics. It's likely that they'll see a DPS reduction and hastily conclude that "I just need to grind more CP."

But, I could be wrong.